FE10 Tierlist 2017

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

If you call it "favoritism" to make your unit usable in part 3, then yes.

Also with "usable", I meant to bring up his speed high enough (24) to double the generics in 3-12.

At the end of 3-12 Edward needs 26 speed to double all the Laguz in 3-13.

With the tempest blade he can oneround the cats from the ledge easily.

Edited January 8, 2017 by Eleanor Hume

[Dark Holy Elf]

Naesala: 8.5/10. Naesala is pretty bad! ... for a laguz royal. Which means he's really great. He has trouble one-rounding tankier enemies, and he can definitely actually die since his def/luck/HP are the lowest of the royals. In some way it's better to compare him to the hawks; he's actually a lot like Janaff except with no gauge to worry about it. So better than Janaff, though with less availability. It balances when we're talking about units this good.

Skrimir: 4/10. Eh, he's fine, but I'm not too impressed. He's good in 4-P but then in the next map he can't double much of anything and then he's kinda trashy for endgame. And unlike Naesala, he still has a gauge to worry about it, though at least it goes down slowly (still loses him turns at the start of the fight).

Tibarn: 9/10. Laguz royal. He's notably tankier than Naesala, and stronger too. He even has more move. But they play similar roles overall. I have little to say about him; obviously he is great and pretty much the only limiter on his score is his availability (which is why I score Nailah higher) and lack of 2 range (like the other royals).

Pelleas: 4/10. Okay, first off, he is absolutely better than Sanaki. Compare an insta-promoted Pelleas with Sanaki and you'll notice he beats her by 10 HP and 8 def, while matching her speed. But more importantly, he has staves... at B rank base. He trashes Sanaki pretty bad, and it gets even more lopsided if you actually raise him instead of crowning him (and luckilly for him he joins on the best path for raising someone due to yummy laguz exp). That said, he's still not a great endgame choice because he does need a bunch of raising and then can't get 34 speed (a shame, since his speed growth is good) unlike Calill.

Stefan: 6/10. Unlike Skrimir or Pelleas, this guy is actually a decent endgame consideration. Sure, you'll probably have better choices (largely because he joins with no supports), but Stefan actually isn't terribly far from a Mia or Edward who have gobbled up loads of exp; he has high str, high spd, adequate durability for his class, and instant access to Vague Katti and Alondite, along with Wyrmslayers for E-3.

42 speed means 42% activation rate of tear – awesome!

21%, actually. EDIT: unless you meant over a double, in which case it's ~37.6%

Edited January 8, 2017 by Dark Holy Elf

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

^ Thanks for the correction.

Accidently thought: activation rate of tear (%) = speed

Fixed it.

[eclipse]

Naesala - He can fly into the desert and make life hell for anything stupid enough to target him. Or he can use himself as bait, and not worry about gauge. Growth royal is almost a contradiction, but not in his case! 8.5/10, with a bit of negative bias because I can't stand his character.

Skrimir - Take everything that makes a tiger good, stretch it, and you get a lion. Except a lion isn't my style of play. 6.5/10, with negative bias for being such a pain in the ass towards Ranulf

Tibarn - The only thing Haar does better is hit things at range. Otherwise, Tibarn flies in and everything that is stupid enough to get near his claws dies. The end. 9.5/10

Pelleas - Man, do I have memories of him! Dark magic is unimpressive as a whole, and that's his gimmick. People who are. . .ahem, slightly nuts can raise both Pelleas and Sanaki at the same time, with some pretty hilarious results. I wouldn't recommend it, though. Otherwise, he's a growth unit when your team should already be set. 4/10, with bias because the first time I used him, he ate a crit and lived due to Miracle.

Stefan - As usual, he's a pain in the neck to recruit. Like most late-game units, he's more into bases than growths, and I'm fine with that. Given the rather shaky quality of the swordies in this game, he's not totally unwelcome. . .that Heaven affinity, on the other hand, can bite me. 4.5/10, with bias for being a cute guy.

[Samias]

Naesala: A royal, and while perhaps the weakest one of them all because of S strike, he's still a flying monster whose only weakness is really a lack of reliable 2 range (and he still does it 40% of the time). He doubles everything in the game at base and his other stats aren't too shabby either. Short of eating multiple crossbows, he's pretty much never going to die to anything even for being the least durable royal. He just doesn't one-round everything.

Skrimir: Comes with his own Resolve, and with physical endurance like this, who cares about the gauge? Seriously, Skrimir is a beast. However he really does need his Resolve to double things consistently so if you take it off, he isn't nearly as good. He's one of the few laguz who can really perform decently even without being transformed, so he can cheese some EXP gain.

Tibarn: An even better version of Naesala. Again, doubles everything, but with more strength, more physical tankiness, and SS strike. Short of Deghinsea, if you set Tibarn against something, they will likely die.

Pelleas: He'd be half-decent if he showed up earlier in part 3, because that's how his stats feel like they were designed for. He just comes in at an awkward time where he's underleveled and you're already nailing down your team, plus you're being handed all these godly units and a forced mage in Sanaki. At least he comes with 10 uses of Fenrir that no one else can use.

Stefan: An endgame-ready trueblade hiding out in the desert, leveled for the player who couldn't keep their army alive or who feel some units are falling behind. He's nearly capped out in most stats and comes with SS swords, but since he hasn't been around the whole game it's hard to be attached to him in any way. But objectively speaking he's as good as every other trueblade you get, if not for having weak luck (but not as dire as PoR) for his level. However he can't fly like Tibarn and isn't as overbearingly powerful as Caneighis will be, and he comes so late to really have any contributions if you don't choose to take him to the endgame. Since he doesn't make objective clearing faster than anyone else really, I don't think too much of him but I think he's better than most of the other beorc units you'll get in part 4.

[Radiant head]

naesala - good obviously, great asset for silver army in case you didn't train enough heavy hitters. kills and dodges everything, just has to watch for crossbows. there are plenty of better royals to use for endgame though, so i find his use to end after the desert. 8/10

skrimir - not as impressive as the royals, but he's no slouch himself. he wants just a little more speed so that he can double regularly. innate resolve will help him do that, but he'll want to pick up the speed stats anyway if you decide to use him for endgame. another good asset for silver army. also makes good use of wildheart pre-endgame. 7.5/10

tibarn - naesala but better, and has a tiny bit extra availability if you count his npc role in the bridge chapter. stupidly power, not sure what else can be said. 9/10.

pelleas - bleh. good for novelty reasons, ie his story role and the aesthetics of being this game's only sorcerer. that said he's not terrible, and no one is competing with him for the ss dark tome so good for him i guess? 4/10

stefan - uhhh i don't even know how to rank him. he's basically a trophy more so than an actual unit. his only real availability is endgame, where you're deploying at most two trueblades because of the two ss swords. most likely he won't be anywhere near mia and zihark (maybe higher than edward, definitely higher than lucia). might just ask the op to ignore my vote on this one.

Edited January 8, 2017 by Radiant head

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

stefan - uhhh i don't even know how to rank him. he's basically a trophy more so than an actual unit. his only real availability is endgame, where you're deploying at most two trueblades because of the two ss swords. most likely he won't be anywhere near mia and zihark (maybe higher than edward, definitely higher than lucia). might just ask the op to ignore my vote on this one.

Alright, I will remove your vote for Stefan from the poll when I'm going to update the table.

[ping]

Naesala - he's amazing in both of his chapters before 4-E, but two chapters isn't exacly a lot. He can still do fine in the tower, but until he reaches SS strike (if at all), his offense isn't that impressive either. I'm going with 7/10, because it's really only the two chapters in which he is amazing instead of quite good.

Skrimir - also really good in 4-P, less impressive but still strong in the desert and a bit disappointing in the tower. Even if he manages to grind his strike rank up, Caineghis and Giffca are just better than him. It is literally impossible for him to even match Giffca's base speed and Cain will always have formshift over both of them (especially because the tower maps tend to be rushable without much effort or RNG dependency). 5.5/10

Tibarn - while he obviously has the same availability issues as Naesala and Skrimir, he absolutely wrecks until the end of the game. He strikes harder than Neasala (his 'weapon' is even 2 points stronger than Naesala's beak), and just plain better than the raven king, and that's without any worries about his weapon rank. Still, I'll go with 8.5/10, because no 1-2 range is a thing, but mostly because he's just not around for most of the game.

Pelleas - Meh. I prefer him over Sanaki because staves, but in the end, he's still yet another potential arch sage with terrible caps. 3/10

Stefan - Uh... he joins halfway through the last map before 4-E, so really, he can do barely anything outside of the tower. He's a bit like Karel in FE6 - if you really want another trueblade for the endgame, Stefan will perform just fine. But if you have any other trueblades trained up, they will be better than Stefan. 3.5/10, even if it feels a bit low, but he neither has any contributions before the endgame, nor can he do anything unique in the endgame.

[Shadow Mir]

Naesala - 8 (with bias included because his battle music is awesome). Weaker than the other royals (largely due to only having S strike), but he's still good enough to blow up whatever needs to die most of the time.

Skrimir - 6. Lions are pretty much tigers on steroids, and his gauge drops nice and slow, meaning that it's easy for him to put in work in his chapters.

Tibarn - 7.5. Being a royal, anything he so much as stares hard at dies. But of course, no 1-2 range is a thing, and he just ain't around for most of the game.

Pelleas - 1.5. He's a hideously underleveled growth unit who comes along when your team is most likely set in stone, and his magic choices screw his accuracy over. Being the only person to bless the S rank dark tome is a novelty, and little else, because Balberith's accuracy is [bLEEP]. Not helping matters is the fact that in his first map, he comes in late.

Stefan - 5.5. Like in PoR, he comes with the Vague Katti. Another thing that hasn't changed is his pain in the ass recruitment. What HAS changed is that his luck is not nearly as worrisome as it was in PoR. He's a solid endgame filler if you didn't get lucky with any of the swordmasters.

Edited January 8, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Anacybele]

Naesala: He's probably the worst of the laguz royals, but that doesn't make him bad. He's still great. You just need to keep him away from archers, because they'll almost one-round him. I've actually lost him before because I relied on him a little TOO much due to the DB being so weak compared to the other two groups in part 4. 8.5/10

Skrimir: He's really good. I would say he's as good as the other laguz royals, except he lacks formshift. 9/10

Pelleas: I have...no idea what to say about him because I never got him due to never doing the whole second playthrough thing. So I just gave him a 4/10 because dark mages just tend to not be that great and he comes in late, I do know that much.

Stefan: I...never got this guy either, but he comes in at tier three with decent stats, I would think, so I gave him a 7/10.

Tibarn: He's awesome, just as other laguz royals are, but I'd say he's one of the best. 9.5/10

[Sweet_Basil]

Naesala: 8.5

He is useful but probably the least stellar royal? He is stuck with S strike although that's not really a bad thing it just means that the other royals are stronger.

Skrimir: 7.5

Skrimir is a great replacement for Volug as Micaiah's pet, if Volug didn't keep up. He is really good and hits enemies hard, but he's also really slow. He's screwed over like the rest of the non-royals because he doesn't have the permanent transform option that royals have, so he makes a less stellar option for endgame.

Tibarn: 10 9.5

Tibarn is really attractive, I find him to be the best looking male in the game hehe. He is probably the most outstanding royal along with Nailah, although Nailah contributed for a longer while so she's probably better. Depends how you look at it, but they're the top 2 in my opinion.

Pelleas: 2

He would have been way better if he joined back in Part 3, but he's screwed over by availability. In 4-2 he joins two turns instead of joining at base so unlike the rest of the characters that join at base (like Elincia/Lucia) I don't have the option to give him skills like paragon or resolve. Then there's the fact that he has trouble hitting enemies.. His potential for endgame is minimal to boot.

Stefan: 3

He is a substitute character for endgame but that's pretty much it, he doesn't contribute much other than that and the free sword. The first time I got him was by accident, I didn't know his recruitment method because I played RD before PoR lol..

Edited January 8, 2017 by Sweet_Basil

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Skrimir has 26 AS speed.

He can double most stuff in the chapter he joins.

In 4-3 he only will get doubled by very few swordmasters (most of them have 29 speed), and he can even oneround a few dracos (22-23 speed).

He's far away from being slow transformed.

As for the endgame his base speed is only bad in the final two maps.

Pelleas: I have...no idea what to say about him because I never got him due to never doing the whole second playthrough thing. So I just gave him a 4/10 because dark mages just tend to not be that great and he comes in late, I do know that much.

Idk how to understand this.

You don't know how to get him in the second playthrough, or you just don't feel like to play it?

[Quintessence]

In that case, you're kinda avoiding my point. Marcus is obviously an exception because he doesn't grow if you give him kills. Units like Nolan/Jill/Edward/Aran etc... do grow if you give them kills. Sothe is more apt example though. Or even Zihark himself for most of part 1.

However, for someone like Nolan who's decent from the get-go, you're naturally going to be using him more in order to play effectively. As such, he's gaining EXP and therefore progressing. You can feed Edward kills as well, but that's objectively more difficult than the aforementioned.

The whole point of rating units if how easy using a unit is in terms of beating the game. Since Edward is more difficult to use (during the hardest part of the game).. then it goes without saying.

Yet, the idea of rating units and tier list to begin with is which strategies (or which units in said strategies) are better.

Reason why someone like Meg is like 2/10 because if you do decide to use her or "use a strategy" that involves her... then 2/10 is the rating she gets.

Again, that's whole point of debating units in terms of how you want to play.

Edward is rated lower than others on the basis of this fact. If we were really so dead-set on only one strategy, then why would we bother giving Edward more than a 0/10 if he's not a part of that strategy? You're trying to find a hole in our logic when there isn't one. Someone like Meg isn't a 0/10 either because if you are trying to come up with a strategy that involves using her, then that's the rating she's been given.

What are the roles that Edward can fulfill and Zihark can't? I suppose innate Wrath makes him a better player phase nuke, but then again, Zihark could just take the skill from him (it's not like he needs any other skill).

I really don't buy that Edward is significantly better in part 3 than Zihark. And I'm very convinced that Zihark is much more helpful in reaching the map objectives during part 1. And it's not a matter of preference whether or not that's significant, unlike shiny green numbers, many stat-up plinks per chapter, a low turncount or some vaguely defined efficiency.

I'm curious: Can you give me a situation in which Edward contributes to the map objective and Zihark cannot do the same thing as good as or better than Eddy? (not counting chapters before 1-6, obviously :D)

Now that you mention effective play, I'm afraid Zihark ends up in a worse position than Edward, because:

1. If one is playing effectively (maximizing unit advantages and such, and optimizing investment in strategies), Sothe is Zihark's Adept recipient, because he's the only reliable 1-2 ranged unit and main unit throughout the whole Part 1, and you want to make Sothe a better fighter. Sothe needs Adept and forged knives to play effectively, kill enemies reliably and rush through the enemies. The only concern is that DB needs 1 or 2 extra units to be trained to distribute effectively the scarce exp (and BEXP), and to fill P3 which is where Sothe starts to fall in performance.

2. Without Adept, Zihark has only Killing Edge and regular bases, which is a point less for him.

3. If one is playing effectively, why am I constructing convoluted and overhyped Earth Supports? This means that besides Sothe and Jill, I have to have Zihark and Nolan/Volug, which is totally not effective because you'll have a bunch of underpowered units and be prone to be wrecked by 3-6. Even then, you're not getting A Earth on 3-6 unless you're grinding supports and turtling through P1, which is not effective play.

On this regard, neither Zihark nor Edward play an important (main) role in P1, both are going to be doing the same, but Edward contributed for 1-P to 1-2. Sothe is the only thing you need in P1 and a good unit in P3, and pretty much any DB fill this role. My point is, what is the huge gap these sword units have? You're just overstating Edward's issues and Zihark-s virtues. But sorry, this is all favoritism! I'm pretty aware of Edward's issues at early game and that he needs proper growth to become a good unit, but I see little reason to use Zihark when I remove Adept from him, and have a myrmidon that saved the day during the first 3 chapters of the game.

[Augestein]

Not a huge gap in NM no. On HM though it's really significant.

Although even with BEXP the point still stands that Edward isn't really better. A couple more points of DEF is not going to make him survive another attack. A couple points of STR will not let him kill anything Zihark cannot.

Zihark borderline doubles cats as well. Edward cannot.

It really isn't though. I've done playthroughs where I did HM and used both Edward and Zihark. In the event that Edward is given that early Dracoshield, plus getting those 3 levels of BEXP, he's looking to have about +4 defense (as the stats most likely to hit are Str, Lck, and Def, so getting two points is pretty standard here) when he reaches level 20. He promotes and he gets 1 point of defense, and he has +5 defense, and he can easily have an A support by the time he promotes. So it's not just a little bit of defense, it's +7 defense from an average Edward, with about 5 of it being natural (1 point of promotion, 2 from the shield, and +2 from BEXP). So it's more like Ed promotes and has 15 defense instead of the projected 11 average, and with a support, he has at least 17 defense on promotion. Zihark doesn't get that until he's level 19 of tier 2. This is what I'm talking about when I say "promoted" Edward is actually functionally better than Zihark. Assuming that you use Zihark, you're right he'll be like 20/6, but let's look at that strength though, it's only going to be 18 most of the time with an extraordinarily low chance of being higher than it. Meanwhile, Edward has 17 strength at 20/1, and it has a slightly decent chance of being naturally 18 on average, and with BEXP, might actually be higher than 18. He may have actually been able to reach 18 strength unpromoted. Bringing up Earth affinity is honestly a joke because there's so many Earth affinity people in the DB that there's no real reason to bring it up. Nolan and Volug are both realistic supports that Edward can use to give himself some earth affinity (with Nolan x Edward actually being mutually beneficial as it stops Nolan's hit problems earlier on and essentially makes both characters immune to Biorhythm), and Earth x Earth is just pointless. It means that you have to break up someone else on your team to benefit Zihark or use Fiona (ugh).

The issue I'm pointing out is that Zihark isn't some godly 7+ unit while Edward is some scrubby 2-3 unit. Zihark is usable, certainly, but he's not nearly as good as people make him out to be. He stops being better than Edward if you bother to use Edward from Part 3 until the end. Do you need Edward's superiority from that point to win? No. Zihark is good enough, and that's what makes him better, because there's less of a struggle to use him at any given random point, but it's not nearly as lopsided as people say. I literally dedicated 2 playthroughs to this because people talked about how terrible Edward was.

Which doesn't even matter. Zihark doesn't double them, so it doesn't matter if it's borderline or not. He doesn't. A couple points of speed are even more worthless than a couple of points in strength when neither double, nor get doubled as a result of it. And both need Resolve to do so. Edward at least has access to a sword that gives him way more might than he should have-- or Zihark for that matter. Zihark is marginally better than Edward. but it's not a gap by any means. People are too harsh on "growth" units at moments and take a very gimped perspective on them even when they have enough time and EXP for their EXP to actually kick in.

[ping]

On this regard, neither Zihark nor Edward play an important (main) role in P1, both are going to be doing the same, but Edward contributed for 1-P to 1-2. Sothe is the only thing you need in P1 and a good unit in P3, and pretty much any DB fill this role. My point is, what is the huge gap these sword units have? You're just overstating Edward's issues and Zihark-s virtues. But sorry, this is all favoritism! I'm pretty aware of Edward's issues at early game and that he needs proper growth to become a good unit, but I see little reason to use Zihark when I remove Adept from him, and have a myrmidon that saved the day during the first 3 chapters of the game.

I'm still not going to revise my DB ratings to Sothe 10/10 and [everyone else] 3/10.

The reason why I gave Zihark and Edward different scores is that Edward becomes a good unit given the effort, while Zihark is a good unit from the moment he joins. Both of them even have good endgame potential, which is why I gave Zihark an 8 (i.e. really good, but not quite top tier) and Edward a 5 (i.e. neither particularly good or bad).

I try not to base my vote on any specific playstyle. I do however try to factor in the opportunity cost to use a unit to its full potential, because otherwise I would have to give Fiona a higher score than Nephenee. And I'm still convinced that Edward's opportunity cost (going at a slower pace to make sure he can get his kills without huge risks, deliberately use weaker weapons on other characters to make sure they don't take the kill from Eddy...) is significantly higher than Zihark's and that the return (Edward's performance once he does promote) isn't as impactful as Zihark's higher everything was in part 1.

In the event that Edward is given that early Dracoshield, plus getting those 3 levels of BEXP, he's looking to have about +4 defense (as the stats most likely to hit are Str, Lck, and Def, so getting two points is pretty standard here) when he reaches level 20. He promotes and he gets 1 point of defense, and he has +5 defense, and he can easily have an A support by the time he promotes. So it's not just a little bit of defense, it's +7 defense from an average Edward, with about 5 of it being natural (1 point of promotion, 2 from the shield, and +2 from BEXP). So it's more like Ed promotes and has 15 defense instead of the projected 11 average, and with a support, he has at least 17 defense on promotion. Zihark doesn't get that until he's level 19 of tier 2.

It's not a given that Edward caps HP/Skl/Spd at level 17. Unless my maths fail me, the individual chances are 69.20% (HP - 13 chances@85%, at least 11 procs) 57.44% (Spd - 13 chances@60%, at least 8 procs) and 50.05% (Skl - 13 chances@65%, at least 9 procs), so the chance to cap all three of them at level 17 is 19.89%.

Also, you just assume that Edward gets the Dracoshield. Why? You use it to boost Edward's defense (not counting support) at 20/1 from 13 to 15 when you could do the exact same thing with Zihark's defense. What makes Edward the better recipient? Because I don't follow your support argument. I'm pretty sure that support bonuses are rounded up in RD, so Edward's affinity, if both he and Zihark chose a +def support partner like Leo or Aran, only gives him +3 Def compared of Zihark's +2. If Edward goes for an Earth support while Zihark doesn't, their support bonuses are comparable. And Zihark has the option to get that ridiculous +45 avoid and I really don't understand how you can call that 'pointless'.

The issue I'm pointing out is that Zihark isn't some godly 7+ unit while Edward is some scrubby 2-3 unit.

Interestingly enough, Edward got exactly one 3/10 (and one 3.5 and no 0-2.5). ;)

[Dunal]

It really isn't though. I've done playthroughs where I did HM and used both Edward and Zihark. In the event that Edward is given that early Dracoshield, plus getting those 3 levels of BEXP, he's looking to have about +4 defense (as the stats most likely to hit are Str, Lck, and Def, so getting two points is pretty standard here) when he reaches level 20. He promotes and he gets 1 point of defense, and he has +5 defense, and he can easily have an A support by the time he promotes. So it's not just a little bit of defense, it's +7 defense from an average Edward, with about 5 of it being natural (1 point of promotion, 2 from the shield, and +2 from BEXP). So it's more like Ed promotes and has 15 defense instead of the projected 11 average, and with a support, he has at least 17 defense on promotion. Zihark doesn't get that until he's level 19 of tier 2. This is what I'm talking about when I say "promoted" Edward is actually functionally better than Zihark. Assuming that you use Zihark, you're right he'll be like 20/6, but let's look at that strength though, it's only going to be 18 most of the time with an extraordinarily low chance of being higher than it. Meanwhile, Edward has 17 strength at 20/1, and it has a slightly decent chance of being naturally 18 on average, and with BEXP, might actually be higher than 18. He may have actually been able to reach 18 strength unpromoted. Bringing up Earth affinity is honestly a joke because there's so many Earth affinity people in the DB that there's no real reason to bring it up. Nolan and Volug are both realistic supports that Edward can use to give himself some earth affinity (with Nolan x Edward actually being mutually beneficial as it stops Nolan's hit problems earlier on and essentially makes both characters immune to Biorhythm), and Earth x Earth is just pointless. It means that you have to break up someone else on your team to benefit Zihark or use Fiona (ugh).

He needs to be given more than just that -- a level 7 Edward with a dracoshield isn't that good (I kid, I kid -- but you know what I mean). He needs to be given a lot of CEXP (which is very strict in HM) and doing so makes Jill/Aran/Nolan/Micaiah etc... weaker as a result of doing that. I'll explain a bit more below.

As for the DEF lead, you can give that Dracoshield to Zihark as well. As well as BEXP to secure doubling on pretty much every enemy. That's something important to note when it comes to equal investment.

And Volug is a perfectly valid support for Zihark. But regardless of who Zihark supports with he's getting some nice avoid and he has more speed to boot.

The issue I'm pointing out is that Zihark isn't some godly 7+ unit while Edward is some scrubby 2-3 unit. Zihark is usable, certainly, but he's not nearly as good as people make him out to be. He stops being better than Edward if you bother to use Edward from Part 3 until the end. Do you need Edward's superiority from that point to win? No. Zihark is good enough, and that's what makes him better, because there's less of a struggle to use him at any given random point, but it's not nearly as lopsided as people say. I literally dedicated 2 playthroughs to this because people talked about how terrible Edward was.

Hey, I'd give Edward 5/10 for 1-P alone (because technically speaking the game is near impossible to beat without Edward). Overall about 5.5-6 though. He's not terrible and doesn't need as much investment as someone like Meg. Roughly on par with Leonardo since the latter only needs 15 speed and beastfoe to be quite useful in part 3 (even if he's immediately benched after). Edward needs more love to be as useful as that, but at least he's still consistently good after that (going into part 4).

Which doesn't even matter. Zihark doesn't double them, so it doesn't matter if it's borderline or not. He doesn't. A couple points of speed are even more worthless than a couple of points in strength when neither double, nor get doubled as a result of it. And both need Resolve to do so. Edward at least has access to a sword that gives him way more might than he should have-- or Zihark for that matter. Zihark is marginally better than Edward. but it's not a gap by any means. People are too harsh on "growth" units at moments and take a very gimped perspective on them even when they have enough time and EXP for their EXP to actually kick in.

Cats have 20-22 AS on 3-6.

Cat lvl 14

HP 41, Atk 22, AS 20, Hit 136, Avo 46, DEF 12, RES 10, Crit 10, Ddg 6

Cat lvl 15

HP 42, Atk 27, AS 20, Hit 137, Avo 47, DEF 14, RES 10, Crit 10, Ddg 7

Cat lvl 16

HP 43, Atk 29, AS 22, Hit 141, Avo 51, DEF 14, RES 10, Crit 11, Ddg 7

Cat lvl 17

HP 43, Atk 31, AS 22, Hit 142, Avo 52, DEF 16, RES 10, Crit 11, Ddg 8

Tiger lvl 14

HP 48, Atk 32, AS 16, Hit 132, Avo 38, DEF 18, RES 4, Crit 9, Ddg 6

Tiger lvl 15

HP 48, Atk 39, AS 16, Hit 136, Avo 38, DEF 18, RES 6, Crit 10, Ddg 6

Tiger lvl 16

HP 50-52, Atk 39, AS 16, Hit 137, Avo 39, DEF 20, RES 6, Crit 11, Ddg 7

Tiger lvl 17

HP 51-52, Atk 41, AS 18, Hit 141, Avo 43, DEF 20, RES 6, Crit 11, Ddg 7

Zihark needs 4 level ups to reach 26 speed on average. If you're giving him as much investment as Edward from 1-6 onward, that is happening.

I'm harsh on "growth units" because they're sharing resources with other units that could use the investment just as much.

If you're using Edward, Jill is worse off. Nolan is worse off. So is Aran etc... That Dracoshield or 3 levels of BEXP (almost non-existant in hard mode)? Giving them to Edward is making other weaker.

Not that the reverse isn't true. Technically with Aran/Nolan/Jill the same principle applies. They're taking EXP from Edward. But the point is that they're competing with eachother.

Zihark doesn't apply to this as much. You can be really lenient with resources towards him (So he's not taking anything away from Jill/Nolan etc...) and he'll be decent as a result.

Now that you mention effective play, I'm afraid Zihark ends up in a worse position than Edward, because:

But by using Edward extensively, all your other units will be weaker as a result.

By using Zihark primarily instead, those other units will be better because you haven't funnelled as many resources.

The key word for this is opportunity cost. When you use or invest into a unit, you, as a player, have an overall budget to distribute to that unit. The more you distribute to that unit, the less other units will have.

Rating units is a lot to do with opportunity cost. Edward has a higher cost to be equal to or surpass Zihark. Yes, he can surpass Zihark -- on average on 3-13 or so. People are giving Edward too much credit when it comes to "surpassing" Zihark though. When with even investment, One isn't neccessarily better than the other. There's a lot of factors on both sides and Part 3 isn't as difficult as people like to make out, so minor stat differences here and there don't mean much.

Edited January 8, 2017 by DLuna

[Dark Holy Elf]

because technically speaking the game is near impossible to beat without Edward

Nah. I've soloed that map with Micaiah (though IIRC you either need some levelup luck or to grab Leo's Dracoshield to survive the boss), so it should be really easy with just Micaiah + Leo. There's no reason to do this, but it does show that Edward certainly isn't "required". 1-P features chokepoints everywhere and non-aggressive enemies.

[Shadow Mir]

It really isn't though. I've done playthroughs where I did HM and used both Edward and Zihark. In the event that Edward is given that early Dracoshield, plus getting those 3 levels of BEXP, he's looking to have about +4 defense (as the stats most likely to hit are Str, Lck, and Def, so getting two points is pretty standard here) when he reaches level 20. He promotes and he gets 1 point of defense, and he has +5 defense, and he can easily have an A support by the time he promotes. So it's not just a little bit of defense, it's +7 defense from an average Edward, with about 5 of it being natural (1 point of promotion, 2 from the shield, and +2 from BEXP). So it's more like Ed promotes and has 15 defense instead of the projected 11 average, and with a support, he has at least 17 defense on promotion. Zihark doesn't get that until he's level 19 of tier 2. This is what I'm talking about when I say "promoted" Edward is actually functionally better than Zihark. Assuming that you use Zihark, you're right he'll be like 20/6, but let's look at that strength though, it's only going to be 18 most of the time with an extraordinarily low chance of being higher than it. Meanwhile, Edward has 17 strength at 20/1, and it has a slightly decent chance of being naturally 18 on average, and with BEXP, might actually be higher than 18. He may have actually been able to reach 18 strength unpromoted. Bringing up Earth affinity is honestly a joke because there's so many Earth affinity people in the DB that there's no real reason to bring it up. Nolan and Volug are both realistic supports that Edward can use to give himself some earth affinity (with Nolan x Edward actually being mutually beneficial as it stops Nolan's hit problems earlier on and essentially makes both characters immune to Biorhythm), and Earth x Earth is just pointless. It means that you have to break up someone else on your team to benefit Zihark or use Fiona (ugh).

The issue I'm pointing out is that Zihark isn't some godly 7+ unit while Edward is some scrubby 2-3 unit. Zihark is usable, certainly, but he's not nearly as good as people make him out to be. He stops being better than Edward if you bother to use Edward from Part 3 until the end. Do you need Edward's superiority from that point to win? No. Zihark is good enough, and that's what makes him better, because there's less of a struggle to use him at any given random point, but it's not nearly as lopsided as people say. I literally dedicated 2 playthroughs to this because people talked about how terrible Edward was.

Which doesn't even matter. Zihark doesn't double them, so it doesn't matter if it's borderline or not. He doesn't. A couple points of speed are even more worthless than a couple of points in strength when neither double, nor get doubled as a result of it. And both need Resolve to do so. Edward at least has access to a sword that gives him way more might than he should have-- or Zihark for that matter. Zihark is marginally better than Edward. but it's not a gap by any means. People are too harsh on "growth" units at moments and take a very gimped perspective on them even when they have enough time and EXP for their EXP to actually kick in.

Even so, I honestly think that for all the hype Edward gets, he needs a crapton of investment just to fail to outstrip Zihark by any meaningful margin, which, given how much of a pain he is to raise, would've needed to happen for me to not be so hard on him.

[eclipse]

Wow, there's three characters with votes all over the place. I wonder how the rest of the characters will fare, given that they all have as much or less screentime as the likes of Stefan?

[Augestein]

It's not a given that Edward caps HP/Skl/Spd at level 17. Unless my maths fail me, the individual chances are 69.20% (HP - 13 chances@85%, at least 11 procs) 57.44% (Spd - 13chances@60%, at least 8 procs) and 50.05% (Skl - 13 chances@65%, at least 9 procs), so the chance to cap all three of them at level 17 is 19.89%.

Also, you just assume that Edward gets the Dracoshield. Why? You use it to boost Edward's defense (not counting support) at 20/1 from 13 to 15 when you could do the exact same thing with Zihark's defense. What makes Edward the better recipient? Because I don't follow your support argument. I'm pretty sure that support bonuses are rounded up in RD, so Edward's affinity, if both he and Zihark chose a +def support partner like Leo or Aran, only gives him +3 Def compared of Zihark's +2. If Edward goes for an Earth support while Zihark doesn't, their support bonuses are comparable. And Zihark has the option to get that ridiculous +45 avoid and I really don't understand how you can call that 'pointless'.

No. But if we're using averages, that's about all we can go off of. Otherwise, we can't say much of anything, as Edward could possibly be better than averages or worse, which becomes inane to even discuss.

Why? Because we're using him here. That's the issue with people on sites for Fire Emblem in general. Obviously if I'm using a unit, I'm going to give them resources that help them, because it obviously helps the team. I see nothing wrong with it. This is why we have people getting rated higher or lower than they should because of this mentality. Like Lucia being "better" than Stefan despite the fact that Stefan has no problems from when he appears until the very end, and Lucia is only good for 2 chapters. It makes no sense. Anyways, Edward gets + 2 from defense because the light bonuses are .5. It's not 3. It's 2. You get .5 C 1 B and then 1.5 for A which makes it 2. Not 3. That's why I usually give him Nolan if I plan on using Edward. It's mutually beneficial, and since none of the stats overlap, you get the best possible bonus you can from both supports because of the rounding. +45 avoid isn't THAT useful for several reasons.

1) using double Earth support means that you are flat out weakening your team at some point. You can't NOT break up a support or simply have to refuse to make one in order to make Zihark get any Earth x Earth that isn't Fiona. That in itself means that you've already thrown efficiency out of the window.

2) Authority stars - Are a thing pretty constantly in Dawn Brigade chapters, and unfortunately for Micaiah, she has 0 authority stars. This means that often times, all your earth affinity is doing is attempting to negate authority stars... Which doesn't put people into reliable dodge. And most importantly:

3) Zihark joins in chapter 6, and you're not getting Earth x Earth A until way into Part 3 assuming you're playing efficiently. 1-6 Zihark doesn't have it, 1-7, he *might* get C, and he might push B at the start of Part 3. In the end of the day, it becomes realistically 2 defense 23 avoid versus 30 avoid. I'll take 2 defense over 7 avoid. 7 avoid isn't doing anything. 2 defense on its own might not do much, but at least Dracoshield + Affinity is a solid + 4 right there. He gets + 5 from promotion. So again, that's not even debatable. I can give this to Zihark as well, and the thing here is that it takes longer for Zihark to build supports with people, so it's not the super gap people talk about.

Like I said, people are overly harsh on this, as he's fine to use.

He needs to be given more than just that -- a level 7 Edward with a dracoshield isn't that good (I kid, I kid -- but you know what I mean). He needs to be given a lot of CEXP (which is very strict in HM) and doing so makes Jill/Aran/Nolan/Micaiah etc... weaker as a result of doing that. I'll explain a bit more below.

As for the DEF lead, you can give that Dracoshield to Zihark as well. As well as BEXP to secure doubling on pretty much every enemy. That's something important to note when it comes to equal investment.

And Volug is a perfectly valid support for Zihark. But regardless of who Zihark supports with he's getting some nice avoid and he has more speed to boot.

So? We're not discussing if Edward > Zihark, we're discussing if Edward is bad at this point. And the answer to that, is that he's not. He's fine. Micaiah barely needs levels to function, and no matter how much EXP she gets, she's still in the same boat as always. And here's the thing, I think Aran is worse than Edward. Not even kidding on that. The ones I think that are worth using that are tier 1s are Ed, Micaiah, Jill, Nolan. The rest I think are kinda worse off for various reasons.

You CAN give him this, but it has much less of an apparent effect without support bonuses and the item as well as potential BEXP, that's my issue. I'm just saying Zihark isn't as good as people are claiming. You have to remember I gave Ed a 5 for being average, and I think that Zihark is like 7 ish at best.

Not really. Again, Volug would prefer extra attack over more avoid. It's not nearly as beneficial for Volug, and still requires him to break up with someone else. And even worse is that Nolan is STILL there and a better choice on the account that they've been together longer and would have a higher support chain. If you give Zihark earth x earth. You're hurting the team. Period.

Zihark needs 4 level ups to reach 26 speed on average. If you're giving him as much investment as Edward from 1-6 onward, that is happening.

I'm harsh on "growth units" because they're sharing resources with other units that could use the investment just as much.

If you're using Edward, Jill is worse off. Nolan is worse off. So is Aran etc... That Dracoshield or 3 levels of BEXP (almost non-existant in hard mode)? Giving them to Edward is making other weaker.

Not that the reverse isn't true. Technically with Aran/Nolan/Jill the same principle applies. They're taking EXP from Edward. But the point is that they're competing with eachother.

Zihark doesn't apply to this as much. You can be really lenient with resources towards him (So he's not taking anything away from Jill/Nolan etc...) and he'll be decent as a result.

4 levels yes, and he gets awful EXP in HM. Like super bad.

Yes. And your arguments are unfair for poor Edward. He deserves it just like Jill does. Jill has a rocky start with that questionable strength, but she's well worth letting her growths kick in to use it. If I use Jill, I'm obviously giving her that energy drop so she can not suck as much. I'm not keeping it because it "hurts the team to give it to her." Saying "using Edward" makes people worse off? Well obviously, the same applies to anyone. The EXP goes into a void the other characters didn't use. I see no point in bringing that point in because it applies all around. When I compare units, I compare Team Edward versus Team Zihark, so you can feel free to give the Dracoshield to anyone on Team Zihark, you can sale it for all that matter, but if it doesn't help nearly as much, I'm not seeing a problem realistically.

No. Zihark is not decent while being lenient with him. That's the problem. I've never felt Zihark was amazing. He appears, has no chapters of being super amazing, just better than Edward for part 1, and then gets battered around like everyone else in Part 3 that's not beefy like Tauroneo or the Black Knight.

By using Zihark primarily instead, those other units will be better because you haven't funnelled as many resources.

Not really. That's the issue. If Zihark is being good, he's taking away from people just like a hypothetical Edward would. That's why Quint and I are having problems with it. There's no clarity how something suddenly becomes favoritism or not. Especially when we magically assume that we're going to be using people that aren't forced.

Wow, there's three characters with votes all over the place. I wonder how the rest of the characters will fare, given that they all have as much or less screentime as the likes of Stefan?

Yeah, these votes are crazy varied this time around.

Edited January 8, 2017 by Augestein

[Quintessence]

I'm still not going to revise my DB ratings to Sothe 10/10 and [everyone else] 3/10.

The reason why I gave Zihark and Edward different scores is that Edward becomes a good unit given the effort, while Zihark is a good unit from the moment he joins. Both of them even have good endgame potential, which is why I gave Zihark an 8 (i.e. really good, but not quite top tier) and Edward a 5 (i.e. neither particularly good or bad).

I try not to base my vote on any specific playstyle. I do however try to factor in the opportunity cost to use a unit to its full potential, because otherwise I would have to give Fiona a higher score than Nephenee. And I'm still convinced that Edward's opportunity cost (going at a slower pace to make sure he can get his kills without huge risks, deliberately use weaker weapons on other characters to make sure they don't take the kill from Eddy...) is significantly higher than Zihark's and that the return (Edward's performance once he does promote) isn't as impactful as Zihark's higher everything was in part 1.

It's not a given that Edward caps HP/Skl/Spd at level 17. Unless my maths fail me, the individual chances are 69.20% (HP - 13 chances@85%, at least 11 procs) 57.44% (Spd - 13 chances@60%, at least 8 procs) and 50.05% (Skl - 13 chances@65%, at least 9 procs), so the chance to cap all three of them at level 17 is 19.89%.

Also, you just assume that Edward gets the Dracoshield. Why? You use it to boost Edward's defense (not counting support) at 20/1 from 13 to 15 when you could do the exact same thing with Zihark's defense. What makes Edward the better recipient? Because I don't follow your support argument. I'm pretty sure that support bonuses are rounded up in RD, so Edward's affinity, if both he and Zihark chose a +def support partner like Leo or Aran, only gives him +3 Def compared of Zihark's +2. If Edward goes for an Earth support while Zihark doesn't, their support bonuses are comparable. And Zihark has the option to get that ridiculous +45 avoid and I really don't understand how you can call that 'pointless'.

Interestingly enough, Edward got exactly one 3/10 (and one 3.5 and no 0-2.5). ;)

Rating's not the issue. The issue is that said gap is non existant in NM and is overstated in HM.

He needs to be given more than just that -- a level 7 Edward with a dracoshield isn't that good (I kid, I kid -- but you know what I mean). He needs to be given a lot of CEXP (which is very strict in HM) and doing so makes Jill/Aran/Nolan/Micaiah etc... weaker as a result of doing that. I'll explain a bit more below.

As for the DEF lead, you can give that Dracoshield to Zihark as well. As well as BEXP to secure doubling on pretty much every enemy. That's something important to note when it comes to equal investment.

And Volug is a perfectly valid support for Zihark. But regardless of who Zihark supports with he's getting some nice avoid and he has more speed to boot.

Hey, I'd give Edward 5/10 for 1-P alone (because technically speaking the game is near impossible to beat without Edward). Overall about 5.5-6 though. He's not terrible and doesn't need as much investment as someone like Meg. Roughly on par with Leonardo since the latter only needs 15 speed and beastfoe to be quite useful in part 3 (even if he's immediately benched after). Edward needs more love to be as useful as that, but at least he's still consistently good after that (going into part 4).

Cats have 20-22 AS on 3-6.

Zihark needs 4 level ups to reach 26 speed on average. If you're giving him as much investment as Edward from 1-6 onward, that is happening.

I'm harsh on "growth units" because they're sharing resources with other units that could use the investment just as much.

If you're using Edward, Jill is worse off. Nolan is worse off. So is Aran etc... That Dracoshield or 3 levels of BEXP (almost non-existant in hard mode)? Giving them to Edward is making other weaker.

Not that the reverse isn't true. Technically with Aran/Nolan/Jill the same principle applies. They're taking EXP from Edward. But the point is that they're competing with eachother.

Zihark doesn't apply to this as much. You can be really lenient with resources towards him (So he's not taking anything away from Jill/Nolan etc...) and he'll be decent as a result.

But by using Edward extensively, all your other units will be weaker as a result.

By using Zihark primarily instead, those other units will be better because you haven't funnelled as many resources.

The key word for this is opportunity cost. When you use or invest into a unit, you, as a player, have an overall budget to distribute to that unit. The more you distribute to that unit, the less other units will have.

Rating units is a lot to do with opportunity cost. Edward has a higher cost to be equal to or surpass Zihark. Yes, he can surpass Zihark -- on average on 3-13 or so. People are giving Edward too much credit when it comes to "surpassing" Zihark though. When with even investment, One isn't neccessarily better than the other. There's a lot of factors on both sides and Part 3 isn't as difficult as people like to make out, so minor stat differences here and there don't mean much.

In an HM Tier List you're not using your resources effectively if you want to train the whole DB army. Investing in Jill and Edward/any other unit is much wiser than investing in Jill, Nolan, Volug, Zihark, Aran, Laura, etc.

[eclipse]

. . .I mean, there's votes all over the place, and the most interesting thing to talk about is Edward? Tiering philosophy is nice and all, despite the fact that there's a really interesting phenomenon occurring RIGHT NOW.

Like, why do you guys think there's such a gigantic range on the non-royals?

[Quintessence]

. . .I mean, there's votes all over the place, and the most interesting thing to talk about is Edward? Tiering philosophy is nice and all, despite the fact that there's a really interesting phenomenon occurring RIGHT NOW.Like, why do you guys think there's such a gigantic range on the non-royals?

If it were me, I'd rate late game units quite low because the rest of the units have contributed throughout all the game, with or without investment. This excludes Elincia, though.

[eclipse]

If it were me, I'd rate late game units quite low because the rest of the units have contributed throughout all the game, with or without investment. This excludes Elincia, though.

That's fine. Have you voted in this poll?

[Dunal]

Not really. That's the issue. If Zihark is being good, he's taking away from people just like a hypothetical Edward would.

But a key factor there that you seem to be ignoring: Taking away less than what Edward would be.

Let's say here's your part 3 team in terms of units you've trained (Volug/Sothe/Tauron need not apply -- they're automatically assumed to be used and don't need many resources).

Team 1: Jill / Nolan / Edward.

Team 2: Jill / Nolan / Zihark.

In team 2, Jill and Nolan are better. While Edward and Zihark are about the same on each team.

Why? Because objectively Zihark does need less than Edward (less opportunity cost). With 60 EXP per map in part 1 and no stat boosters and a B support (+30 avoid if paired with Volug). Zihark is perfectly usable. And that's being unfair on Zihark if you're giving him no stat boosters and half a level per map (which is about 7 kills only -- more easily fed to than Edward due to being stronger in part 1). We are not even giving him BEXP either.

Meanwhile Nolan is gaining more EXP pre-1-6 and Jill is allowed more kills post 1-5. Because Zihark is getting less while still being usable in part 3. Zihark, still needs some, don't get me wrong, but objectively less than Edward (If you want a 5-page essay on why that's true then fine, but...).

So going back to Edward. He is not terrible (you keep saying I think he is but that's not true). He's very useful in 1-P and 1-1. He's good if trained. Caladbolg is a very powerful sword. Innate Wrath is great to have.

But, he has some of the highest opportunity cost in the DB. Less than Meg/Fiona. But more than everyone else (Yes, even Leo -- but he's a really weird case that only has any value because of his personal weapon in like, 2 maps in part 3 and is then redundant). In hard mode (where he blocks axes with his face).

In normal mode, I think he's a solid 7/10 (inb4 I've buffed him too much in ReDux). While Zihark is 8/10. But he is the unit who gets penalized the most out of every other unit in the game in hard mode. 3 levels of BEXP is pretty much all the BEXP you get in part 1. Literally no-one else will be able to have any. Just let that sink in.

That's pretty much where I end the debate. I'm not being overly harsh on Edward -- I use him in almost every PT because I just enjoy his design more than Zihark. And using pre-promotes is less satisfying. If I were being bias I would actually try and favor Edward. =/ But that's not how you debate. I learned how to stop doing that a long time ago. 8 years ago I thought Edward was the s*** and wouldn't let anyone tell me otherwise.

Also, apologies if this debate is undermining every other discussion. =p

Like, why do you guys think there's such a gigantic range on the non-royals?

Non-royals are weird and either people completely ignore them or try to make them work. And those who do the latter can come to appreciate their strengths.

Some people just don't like using them being they're unconventional as far as FE goes. So they'll give them low ratings.

Most people also forget that they beenfit double from stat boosters. Giving Volug the stat boosters in part 1 makes him super powerful in part 3 (but that goes without saying I suppose).

Someone like Lyre isn't as awful as some would say because she is redeemable with a few stat boosters. I mean, she's still bad, but eh. Certain Beorc are worse. You can give 10 stat boosters to Fiona and she will still struggle.

Edited January 8, 2017 by DLuna