Fire Emblem Heroes General Discussion and Links

[DehNutCase]

15 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Frederick has the same Atk as Est (if you're running +Res on Est, why the fuck are you running +Res on Est? Def Ploy works perfectly fine on 32 Res), meaning Est has +10 damage before the counterattack over Frederick at the cost of positioning and 1 movement range (and dying horribly to anything that she didn't kill).

Yeah, that was just me remembering wrong.

15 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Note that since this is the rating without movement-type buffs, Est is using her C slot for her own gain whereas Frederick gains nothing from his C slot, meaning Est gets the benefit of both her own C slot and her teammates' C slots. The two have the same rating when accounting for movement-type buffs.

Est using her C-slot for her own gain means that her teammates aren't benefiting as much from C-slot buffs. Skill-slots are a very precious resource, seeing how a team only has 4 copies per slot. The mere fact that she's using her C-slot for some other than a flier buff means that flying mages are no longer as effective when you use them with Est (since you'd now have to run 4 fliers to give the +6 all stats effect---the flying mage themselves, one for Hone Fliers, one for Fort fliers---and even just the Hone effect would take a team of 3 fliers to reach on whoever's buffing Est). Using up skill-slots has very serious effects on teambuilding.

I mean, I guess it sort of makes sense in the bizzaro world of wiki tier lists where, for some reason, C-slots are supposed to benefit the unit themselves (even if they weaken the team overall), but their standards just grates on me.

Edit: Although, now that I think about it, that explains a lot about why mages are so undervalued despite having access to -blades. Being able to be buffed spectacularly by C-slot skills doesn't matter if the whole point of having a C-slot skill is ignored.

 

Edited October 1, 2017 by DehNutCase

[Ice Dragon]

19 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

Until Def Ploy becomes a bit more attainable, why do the Tier Lists put such heavy emphasis on it lately?

Gamepedia does it because it's specifically ranking each character assuming optimal sets and Def Ploy happens to be optimal on certain characters. Availability is specifically ignored on the main tier list.

 

19 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

I've yet to even see it run in Arena.

Gamepedia's tier list is for Arena offense, not Arena defense.

Def Ploy and Triangle Adept, for example, are far more valuable on Arena offense than they are on Arena defense due to the fact that the player is capable of manipulating the AI to get hit by debuffs or to engage in unfavorable match-ups.

 

13 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Est using her C-slot for her own gain means that her teammates aren't benefiting as much from C-slot buffs. Skill-slots are a very precious resource, seeing how a team only has 4 copies per slot. The mere fact that she's using her C-slot for some other than a flier buff means that flying mages are no longer as effective when you use them with Est (since you'd now have to run 4 fliers to give the +6 all stats effect---the flying mage themselves, one for Hone Fliers, one for Fort fliers---and even just the Hone effect would take a team of 3 fliers to reach on whoever's buffing Est). Using up skill-slots has very serious effects on teambuilding.

I mean, I guess it sort of makes sense in the bizzaro world of wiki tier lists where, for some reason, C-slots are supposed to benefit the unit themselves (even if they weaken the team overall), but their standards just grates on me.

Edit: Although, now that I think about it, that explains a lot about why mages are so undervalued despite having access to -blades. Being able to be buffed spectacularly by C-slot skills doesn't matter if the whole point of having a C-slot skill is ignored.

Their bizarro world basically assumes all units have access to equal bonuses from their teammates. This basically undervalues only Litrblade and movement-type buffs (but the latter are taken into account on their own charts).

The thing about Def Ploy is that it does benefit your allies, just not in the same way as a regular buff does.

Edited October 1, 2017 by Ice Dragon

[DehNutCase]

1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

The thing about Def Ploy is that it does benefit your allies, just not in the same way as a regular buff does.

Then why isn't Def Ploy simply assumed on all enemies? Have a mage carry it.

[Ice Dragon]

Just now, DehNutCase said:

Then why isn't Def Ploy simply assumed on all enemies? Have a mage carry it.

Because Def Ploy is an exceptional case that can't be assumed. Basic buffs like Hone Atk and Hone Spd can be assumed because every unit in the game is able to run the skills and with the exact same outcome. That is not the case with Def Ploy where only a few units (not to mention most of them are non-meta) can use it effectively.

[DehNutCase]

6 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Because Def Ploy is an exceptional case that can't be assumed. Basic buffs like Hone Atk and Hone Spd can be assumed because every unit in the game is able to run the skills and with the exact same outcome. That is not the case with Def Ploy where only a few units (not to mention most of them are non-meta) can use it effectively.

Uh, the thing about def ploy is that, if you place it on anyone with above average res, everyone relevant will be hit.

This is because if you have high res you won't have high def, meaning, if your target could avoid the debuff, then you didn't need it to kill the person you wanted to debuff anyway. (Barring weird cases like Selena, Sheena, etc, but they have their own problems.)

Having it on a mage over a flier also means easier positioning, since the mage has 1 more reach than the flier. Edit: Not so that the mage can hit the person they're debuffing, mind, but so that they can hit someone---positioning centric debuffs heavily favors having high reach---that is, horse or range---meaning Est isn't even a good carrier anyway, since you'll pay in unit-turns or B-slot mobility skills if you're using it to 'help the team.'

Edited October 1, 2017 by DehNutCase

[property of nuvelle]

Oh boy, monthly quests again... Maybe Inigo or Azura will come this time.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

The "Win Arena Duels on _____ difficulty" quests earn you feathers instead of chump change crystals. So much more worth it!

[Ice Dragon]

11 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Uh, the thing about def ploy is that, if you place it on anyone with above average res, everyone relevant will be hit.

This is because if you have high res you won't have high def, meaning, if your target could avoid the debuff, then you didn't need it to kill the person you wanted to debuff anyway. (Barring weird cases like Selena, Sheena, etc, but they have their own problems.)

There are several problems with that:

1. Life and Death tends to be more optimal on Arena offense than on Arena defense. This means that player-controlled units are more likely at a disadvantage in Res.
2. Enemy units tend to have several more merge levels than player-controlled units, putting player-controlled units at a further 1 or 2 Res disadvantage.
3. Def Ploy doesn't stack with itself, meaning Def Ploy has decreasing marginal benefit with each unit you add it to.
4. Positioning is more difficult with armor, infantry, and (to a lesser degree due to increased movement range) cavalry units due to movement impediments. Fliers have the easiest time setting up Def Ploy.
5. Def Ploy does not affect your magic units at all, whereas Hone Atk does. Res Ploy is significantly more difficult to set up because the stat used for the comparison is the same stat you are trying to lower.

Which really just boils down to: Hone Atk is trivial to set up. Def Ploy is not trivial to set up.

 

18 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Having it on a mage over a flier also means easier positioning, since the mage has 1 more reach than the flier. Edit: Not so that the mage can hit the person they're debuffing, mind, but so that they can hit someone---positioning centric debuffs heavily favors having high reach---that is, horse or range---meaning Est isn't even a good carrier anyway, since you'll pay in unit-turns or B-slot mobility skills if you're using it to 'help the team.'

Um, no. Fliers have an advantage over mages in setting up Def Ploy because range doesn't matter for Def Ploy. What matters is getting into the correct row or column to set off the debuff, which is easier for a flier to do since their movement is unimpeded by most types of terrain.

[property of nuvelle]

GOD DAMN WHY IS EVERYTHING THAT I ACTUALLY WANT ATK- THESE DAYS. Pulled Inigo. Def+/Res-. I'm going for him again

Edit: Not Res-. I meant Atk-.

Edited October 1, 2017 by KongDude

[Vaximillian]

85 orbs in my stash right now, 14 more to earn from the quests, however many to get daily, any events they might run later,—I’m getting prepared for the inevitable Genealogy banner!

I haven’t saved this much ever.

Edited October 1, 2017 by Vaximillian

[DehNutCase]

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Um, no. Fliers have an advantage over mages in setting up Def Ploy because range doesn't matter for Def Ploy. What matters is getting into the correct row or column to set off the debuff, which is easier for a flier to do since their movement is unimpeded by most types of terrain.

What I meant is: it is harder for a unit without good reach to do things other than setting up def ploy on player phase. Est needs to not be touched in order to survive, meaning the closest she can be to the target she's ploying is one square between the two of them (two squares for ranged), what this means is that, after the debuff lands, she'll have a hard time finding things to do---horses have access to their good +1 move reposition, and ranged units have one more range to find someone to hit. Let's say she was just setting up for her team, meaning she isn't going to hit the thing she ployed... well then, if the thing she wants to hit was next to the thing she ployed, that is, 3 squares away (assuming you ploy'd a ranged target, meaning the target is 2 squares away), how's Est going to reach it?

If all you needed was a buff-bot, sure, that turn didn't matter much, but it's still a consistent loss to unit-turns to have someone with low mobility activating positioning dependent debuffs.

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

There are several problems with that:

1. Life and Death tends to be more optimal on Arena offense than on Arena defense. This means that player-controlled units are more likely at a disadvantage in Res.
2. Enemy units tend to have several more merge levels than player-controlled units, putting player-controlled units at a further 1 or 2 Res disadvantage.
3. Def Ploy doesn't stack with itself, meaning Def Ploy has decreasing marginal benefit with each unit you add it to.
4. Positioning is more difficult with armor, infantry, and (to a lesser degree due to increased movement range) cavalry units due to movement impediments. Fliers have the easiest time setting up Def Ploy.
5. Def Ploy does not affect your magic units at all, whereas Hone Atk does. Res Ploy is significantly more difficult to set up because the stat used for the comparison is the same stat you are trying to lower.

Which really just boils down to: Hone Atk is trivial to set up. Def Ploy is not trivial to set up.

1, Atk is heavily favored over Spd for Brave Weapon users: -Spd/+Hp Elincia sims better than or equal to +Spd/-Atk Elincia for a lot of sets. This means DB 3 is not much of a loss over L&D. (Mind, this mostly applies to bow users, Olwen and Reinhardt are the only brave tomers, and one of them really needs their speed high to have a relevant offense.)

2, Players have access to tactician's support, enemies don't, meaning if you need to pass a stat check you can inflate your unit's stat as well.

3, ...So? You don't run a def ploy mage/cav/archer and def ploy est, you run def ploy mage and send est to the skill fodder bin.

4, Fliers have the easiest time setting up Def Ploy but a similar time compared to infantry doing something after the setup---melee range and 2 move is below average reach, and only average mobility. Flying mages have good reach, yeah, but you don't see Def Ploy bumping up their tiers (which they should, Est has no business carrying a ploy rather than a Hone, whereas Cordelia wouldn't mind carrying a Hone for the mage).

5, Res ploy doesn't even matter because Hone Type is +18 for -blade, the mage should be carrying def ploy, the melee should be carrying Hone.

 

Def ploy is far less trivial than hone to setup, because you have to use up a unit-turn for it unless you have great mobility, otherwise you just did the equivalent of a Rally, using up a turn for a buff effect, except you debuffed the enemy rather than buffed an ally.

Edit: Although I'm not sure how that relates to Est being good with Def Ploy for some reason? It's not like she sets it up easier than other carriers, 2 move melee is only better than 1 move melee when it comes to actually doing things after triggering Def Ploy, 2 move ranged, 3 move melee, and 3 move ranged all do better. Def ploy is either reliable enough that anyone can set it up (in which case Est has no business being good just because of Def Poy), or else sufficiently unreliable that it's not even close to being comparable to a Hone in the C-slot for Est---since she doesn't have the mobility to use her unit-turn after setting up the ploy for someone else (rather than being a good buff to both herself and whoever else wants to do things, it ends up being a mediocre option for everyone involved).

Double Edit: Basically, Def Ploy is either around Savage Blow's level or it's not. (Niche C-slot that mostly boosts only the owner's effectiveness---Savage Blow is basically useless compared to Hone Type in terms of helping other units, but it's one of the few things that make a Galeforce sweep easier). If it is, then Est has no business rising because you don't see people going: Hey, Savage Blow is amazing on X, X should go up! If it's not, then Est has no business rising because then literally everyone can run it, and she isn't even at the level of being 'good' at running it.

Edited October 1, 2017 by DehNutCase

[property of nuvelle]

Thanks game for Def+/HP- 5* Sheena. What the hell do I do with her.

 

[Xenomata]

Know what we need?

A Ranged, Cavalry, Veteran Dancer unit.

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

1 hour ago, KongDude said:

Thanks game for Def+/HP- 5* Sheena. What the hell do I do with her.

Merge fodder for an eventual +Res -Spd Sheena I guess... Or Svalin Shield.

[Vaximillian]

7 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

Know what we need?

A Ranged, Cavalry, Veteran Dancer unit.

5 BST.

@KongDude: stare at her lovingly!

Edited October 1, 2017 by Vaximillian

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

1 hour ago, Vaximillian said:

@KongDude: stare at her lovingly!

But what if they add Samson?

[Hilda]

1 hour ago, Xenomata said:

Know what we need?

A Ranged, Cavalry, Veteran Dancer unit.

I would rather say we need an update on some older Legendary Weapons lol

Some of them were allready bad and some got straight out useless (or on a similar level as new introduced normal weapons) on the last Banner and this one

And no as soon as they put in a Ranged Cavalry Dancer i am done. Heck even just a melee Cavalry Dancer would be overblown.

Edited October 1, 2017 by Hilda

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

4 hours ago, Vaximillian said:

85 orbs in my stash right now, 14 more to earn from the quests, however many to get daily, any events they might run later,—I’m getting prepared for the inevitable Genealogy banner!

I haven’t saved this much ever.

I only saved feathers for Arvis lol

[Poimagic]

After spending about 25 orbs (including the 5 orbs spent to get this unit), I got her:  

She is +spd/-def which is appearently one of her best natures. Should I keep summoning on her banner, or save up as she was the only one I wanted. On a side note, My Summer Corrin and Elincia got a S-Rank Support. Congrats to them.

Edited October 1, 2017 by Poimagic

[Rezzy]

8 hours ago, DehNutCase said:

Yeah, that was just me remembering wrong.

Est using her C-slot for her own gain means that her teammates aren't benefiting as much from C-slot buffs. Skill-slots are a very precious resource, seeing how a team only has 4 copies per slot. The mere fact that she's using her C-slot for some other than a flier buff means that flying mages are no longer as effective when you use them with Est (since you'd now have to run 4 fliers to give the +6 all stats effect---the flying mage themselves, one for Hone Fliers, one for Fort fliers---and even just the Hone effect would take a team of 3 fliers to reach on whoever's buffing Est). Using up skill-slots has very serious effects on teambuilding.

I mean, I guess it sort of makes sense in the bizzaro world of wiki tier lists where, for some reason, C-slots are supposed to benefit the unit themselves (even if they weaken the team overall), but their standards just grates on me.

Edit: Although, now that I think about it, that explains a lot about why mages are so undervalued despite having access to -blades. Being able to be buffed spectacularly by C-slot skills doesn't matter if the whole point of having a C-slot skill is ignored.

 

For Cavs and Fliers, I've found the +6/+6 for the C slot is better than anything else another C skill can provide.  For Infantry, there's more flexibility, but it seems the tiers are only accounting for 1v1 match-ups and don't take team synergy into account.

8 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Gamepedia does it because it's specifically ranking each character assuming optimal sets and Def Ploy happens to be optimal on certain characters. Availability is specifically ignored on the main tier list.

 

Gamepedia's tier list is for Arena offense, not Arena defense.

Def Ploy and Triangle Adept, for example, are far more valuable on Arena offense than they are on Arena defense due to the fact that the player is capable of manipulating the AI to get hit by debuffs or to engage in unfavorable match-ups.

 

Their bizarro world basically assumes all units have access to equal bonuses from their teammates. This basically undervalues only Litrblade and movement-type buffs (but the latter are taken into account on their own charts).

The thing about Def Ploy is that it does benefit your allies, just not in the same way as a regular buff does.

Until we get someone else with Def Ploy, I'm not sure if we can assume there's that many sources floating around.  It's like in Pokemon, when Chansey got Wish like back in Gen III, and never since, but sets were still suggesting movesets with Wish on them as late as Gen VI.  There's rare accessibility, then there's borderline impossible.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

44 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

For Cavs and Fliers, I've found the +6/+6 for the C slot is better than anything else another C skill can provide.  For Infantry, there's more flexibility, but it seems the tiers are only accounting for 1v1 match-ups and don't take team synergy into account.

Until we get someone else with Def Ploy, I'm not sure if we can assume there's that many sources floating around.  It's like in Pokemon, when Chansey got Wish like back in Gen III, and never since, but sets were still suggesting movesets with Wish on them as late as Gen VI.  There's rare accessibility, then there's borderline impossible.

Pokemon is kind of a bad example since while Gen 2 assumes Growth Vaporeon and Hidden Power Zapdos, and even in official Follow Me Magmar exists. LIterally the only reason such a thing exists is because hacking is technically allowed in Pokemon

Edited October 1, 2017 by JSND Alter Dragon Boner

[MrSmokestack]

2 minutes ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

Pokemon is kind of a bad example since Gen 2 assumes Growth Vaporeon and Hidden Power Zapdos, and even in official Follow Up Magmar exists. LIterally the only reason such a thing exists is because hacking is technically allowed in Pokemon

“Hey man check out my perfect IV XD Follow Me Magmar totally not a hack or anything even tho this is my first year of VGC”

Edited October 1, 2017 by MrSmokestack

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

3 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

“Hey man check out my perfect IV XD Follow Me Magmar totally not a hack or anything even tho this is my first year of VGC”

Lol i'm 99% sure if you ask that guy about it personally he would totally claims its a hack. Hacking is like "meh" in pokemon

[MrSmokestack]

2 minutes ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

Lol i'm 99% sure if you ask that guy about it personally he would totally claims its a hack. Hacking is like "meh" in pokemon

True. I don’t understand why some people make such a big deal about it. The only really bad ones are 252 to all stats.

Speaking of hacking, it isn’t really possible in Heroes anymore right? Stuff like +10 Xander and the Askr units in arena I mean.

[property of nuvelle]

7 hours ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

Merge fodder for an eventual +Res -Spd Sheena I guess... Or Svalin Shield.

Is Res+ better for her? I think I'm okay with 39 Def.

7 hours ago, Vaximillian said:

 

@KongDude: stare at her lovingly!

I can't. I wanted the boy Inigo :(