The future of Ninjas

[Jotari]

Fates kind of did a bold move by splitting it's aesthetic up into European and Asian inspired classes. In terms of gameplay however the only really new class line it featured were Ninjas and their Shurikens. So do you think Ninja's will stick around in the series one of the basic classes? Will every game from now on feature a Ninja country alongside all these (primarily) European styled ones? Will they continue this Hoshido/Nohr dynamic that Fates introduced? Or are Ninja destined to be a one game wonder and won't appear in the series again?

[Vestige]

If they don't want to keep the whole asian aesthetic of the class, I feel like they could easily re-tool the whole ninja kit into the traditional thief/assassin class. Every shuriken can easily be replaced by a knife. I feel like shoehorning "ye typical ninja country" into every future Fire Emblem would get tiresome very fast, as has been seen with children already (though perhaps not nearly as egregious). 

[EricaofRenais]

Well in Fates ninjas and outlaws replaced thieves, so it will depend on if they bring thieves back in the next game.  What I would like is start with a thief and have ninja/master ninja replace assassin in their promotion classes choice.  I just want the class that is in the "thief" position to have steal again and if they are ninjas that is fine.  Why did they have to get rid of the steal skill in the 3DS games?  It added something to the older games and I want it back.

[Azure Sen]

Maybe if there's another country in the series with a more Eastern/Japanese aesthetic Ninjas will return, but I doubt it otherwise. More likely, they'll be folded into the Thief promotion tree with new design and name if they show up in the series again at all.

[Gima]

Ninjas weren't really a new class. I always thought of them as the Thieves of the game. I remember that one of my friends who hated how Fates was split into three games, but picked up Fire Emblem: Heroes, saw the Thieves (particularly Matthew) with their Shuriken and said "ooh, Knives are back". Thieves will just use Daggers in future games.

[C. Turtle]

I get the feeling Ninjas won't be back, but with the way Heroes handles Thieves, it get the feeling Thieves will be taking over as the main Dagger/Shuriken/Hidden Weapon/Whatever class for future games. Ninjas were basically Hoshido's Thieves anyway, so it makes sense. I prefer the ninja aesthetic over regular old thieves, but unless there's a good way to differentiate the two, it'd probably feel redundant to have both.

[Augestein]

I'd say make it called the "scout" class as a compromise. Otherwise, I fully expect thieves to come back. 

[Thunderstar]

I can see Ninjas coming back if we get an East/Asia inspired country again.

Otherwise I could just see thieves using knives now like they did in PoR/RD and currently in Heroes.
They could just be replaced by thieves since they were Fates' thieves with the Outlaws. 

[Dragoncat]

Yeah although I love the ninjas because hey, they're NINJAS, I agree with everyone saying we'll just have thieves with knives unless there's an eastern style setting again. Either that or they'll become a series staple? I mean pirates have always been a thing in FE...and everyone always goes "ninjas or pirates, which are cooler?" Ninjas hands down xD

[NekoKnight]

Despite their similar skills and stats to thieves, I would describe Ninja as a "new class". Hidden weapons are a completely different utility to knives or swords thieves used before. I would encourage IS to keep hidden weapons in future installments (with some balance changes) but it would be fine if thieves replaced ninja again. One thing they might do for aesthetics is to have a ambiguously fantasy!Asian nation like Sacae and have Asian influences on certain classes (myrmidons, nomads, etc). I think Fire Emblem's identity is more in western fantasy but Asian things can be featured.

Also, Oni Savage and Herb Merchant are new class trees, as far as I know.

[Slumber]

1 hour ago, Dragoncat said:

Yeah although I love the ninjas because hey, they're NINJAS, I agree with everyone saying we'll just have thieves with knives unless there's an eastern style setting again. Either that or they'll become a series staple? I mean pirates have always been a thing in FE...and everyone always goes "ninjas or pirates, which are cooler?" Ninjas hands down xD

A. The FE games are styled after Europe, and thematically stick to this in every game except Fates. Hell, sometimes you can see direct comparisons to real European places, like Jugdral looking and sounding an awful lot like Scandinavia(You can ignore the desert bits. Just imagine all the sand is snow.).

B. Pirates were all over Europe in the medieval times that these games model themselves after. The Berserker, their promoted class, comes directly from northern Europe(Again, Scandinavia). 

C. Pirates are way cooler than ninjas, Naruto made ninjas lame and they're still recovering. 

But yeah, Ninjas will likely just disappear. Thieves already took this role, and with knives having been their own weapon type in FE10, we'll likely just see Thieves pick up whatever unique traits ninjas had(I can't think of any beyond just using shurikens, which were basically 1-2 range knives at it was). 

Edited February 9, 2017 by Slumber

[Dragoncat]

A and B: True, but it's fantasy so it doesn't have to follow real life.

C: So did One Piece make pirates lame then? Same concept. I don't want to start a debate...and I might be wrong, One Piece might not be about pirates, but you get the point.

[Emeraldfox]

55 minutes ago, Slumber said:

But yeah, Ninjas will likely just disappear. Thieves already took this role, and with knives having been their own weapon type in FE9, we'll likely just see Thieves pick up whatever unique traits ninjas had(I can't think of any beyond just using shurikens, which were basically 1-2 range knives at it was). 

Bolded part: Good one. At the italics: corrected because Thieves didn't use knives until PoR.

If Ninjas won't come back then I hope Assassins keep a ninja aesthetic like Volke did. I also hope knives/daggers/shurikens keep their debuffing effects in future games if they make an appearance.

[Jotari]

While Thieves certainly could be the continuation of Ninja, I don't think they necessarily have to be. Thieves can keep all the things that made them thieves. The unlocking chests, the setting off traps, finding hidden items, and for the love of Naga, bring back stealing for crying out loud! While Ninja's can keep the primary role they had in Fates as 1-2 range physical units that debuff enemies. To further differentiate knives and shurikens you could give knives a property where enemies can't counter attack them rather than making them debuffing weapons.

[Gima]

You'd have to genericize Ninjas. The thing is, that's completely possible, since Fire Emblem has had genericized Samurai for almost two decades now.

 

I don't see exactly what you'd call a class that's basically "Thief with Knives", though. Maybe Spy?

 

Edit: Actually, it's more like 15 years, since Myrmidons and Swordmasters have only resembled Samurai since Binding Blade. Oh, well. I also like the idea of Ninjas being differentiated from Thieves by being more physical units and debuffers.

Edited February 9, 2017 by Gima

[Slumber]

9 hours ago, Dragoncat said:

A and B: True, but it's fantasy so it doesn't have to follow real life.

C: So did One Piece make pirates lame then? Same concept. I don't want to start a debate...and I might be wrong, One Piece might not be about pirates, but you get the point.

Fantasy is fantasy, but it still holds to your suspension of disbelief. When something fantasizes real life, you still expect things to be cohesive with real life, and works for that are deliberately not like that usually bring attention to it, like Fates did. Fates brought in a reason to have Ninjas, and the plot heavily involved a fantasy feudal Japan going go war with fantasy medieval Europe. A normal FE story would have no reasons to have Ninjas without it being heavily incorporated into the plot, which is a lot of work to do to justify one class that already functions identically to a class that already exists and works in a faux-European setting. 

Also, from my understanding, One Piece is good. Naruto is not. So One Piece didn't ruin pirates in the same way Naruto ruined ninjas. 

 

8 hours ago, Emeraldfox said:

Bolded part: Good one. At the italics: corrected because Thieves didn't use knives until PoR.

If Ninjas won't come back then I hope Assassins keep a ninja aesthetic like Volke did. I also hope knives/daggers/shurikens keep their debuffing effects in future games if they make an appearance.

Knives weren't really a proper weapon class until FE10. In PoR, they were essentially an item that you could use if you had the perk to do it, and if you had that perk, you could use all knives. FE10 made them a weapon type you had to use and level up to build weapon ranks with. FE9 knives are like FE10 cards, which I wouldn't call a proper weapon class. 

[Tolvir]

I really hope Ninja is gone. I did not really like it. I didnt like their design. Their crouched down style looked like they were constantly trying to take a shit, the attack animations were not very good (who attacks with a sword upside down?), and I didnt like the blurry phasing in and out thing with the constant dissapearing. Last time I checked they cant use magic, so why the hell are they phasing in and out of existence? 

I want my Assassins and Rogues back. Outlaw/Adventurer didn't cut it for me. I especially didnt like the Adventurer armor with the big bow on the back of the cloak. Looked like he took a large bow off a christmas tree and threw it on his back.

 I dont want to see a Ninja showing up in a European fantasy setting. If it is only one character, and they explain he is a traveler from a distant kingdom, maybe. But otherwise, I really hope they would not return outside of DLC. And if they do return, please, please, please come up with a better attack animation and idle for them.

[Etrurian emperor]

I think we will be seeing something like what happened to the horse archer class. Mongol inspired Sacea can only be found on one continent yet horse archers remained, they just lacked the Mongol look to go with it.

Ninja's can remain by just adding some bells and whistles to the thief class which they are already very similar to. 

[Jotari]

26 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I think we will be seeing something like what happened to the horse archer class. Mongol inspired Sacea can only be found on one continent yet horse archers remained, they just lacked the Mongol look to go with it.

Ninja's can remain by just adding some bells and whistles to the thief class which they are already very similar to. 

Horse Archers were around before Sacea. In fact I think they debuted in the very first game.

Edited February 9, 2017 by Jotari

[Gima]

Again, we have had genericized Samurai since at least Binding Blade. A genericized Ninja class could very well be a possibility, and one you seem to be ignoring. Just create a new class (again, maybe called Spy) and have it promote into Assassin (and maybe another class, if you keep the branching promotion system.) Then you keep the Thief and Rogue/Trickster classes. Done. Hell, this kind of thing happens all the time. Just look at Zelda and all the Sheikah.

[Thunderstar]

54 minutes ago, Gima said:

Again, we have had genericized Samurai since at least Binding Blade. A genericized Ninja class could very well be a possibility, and one you seem to be ignoring. Just create a new class (again, maybe called Spy) and have it promote into Assassin (and maybe another class, if you keep the branching promotion system.) Then you keep the Thief and Rogue/Trickster classes. Done. Hell, this kind of thing happens all the time. Just look at Zelda and all the Sheikah.

It would be interesting as well because it would mean that we would get 3 classes (Thieves, Spies and Outlaws) being able to steal and each one being able to use a different weapon and being weak against one and strong against the other because of the weapon triangle.
 

It would be similar to the Sword/Lance/Axe Cavaliers/Paladins and the Anima(Fire/Thunder/Wind)/Light/Dark Mages. 

[Roflolxp54]

Fire Emblem Heroes made it so that Thieves/Assassins use Shurikens/Daggers as their weapon of choice, including old-school thieves like Matthew of FE7.

[Folt]

As Ninjas are essentially Eastern-flavored versions of the usual Thief class (though they do at times feel like Hoshido's answer to the standard Cavalier class as well; probably doesn't help that the Cain and Abel archetype are of the Ninja class this time around), we're likely going to see a return of the usual Thief class, but using Hidden Weapons to act as a debuffer class in addition to their usual thieving abilities. I could see them getting Swords in addition to Shurikens if they go Assassins, but if they become whatever game's equivalent of the Trickster/Rogue/Adventurer, I could see them wielding Staves too for max utility (So Hidden -> Sword/Hidden or Hidden/Staves).

Incidentally, Naruto made Ninjas suck, but One Piece hasn't disgraced the Pirates yet. But I think that Fates' version of the Ninja is moreso a fantasy interpretation of what actual Ninjas likely did rather than the fantasy Ninja that Naruto (and some JRPGs like Final Fantasy) helped popularize.

Edited February 10, 2017 by Folt

[Jotari]

On the subject of Final Fantasy, I'd like to point out that Final Fantasy Tactics had a very European aesthetic yet inexplicably had Ninjas as an available class. I can't recall any major character in the game that uses the class by default though. As far as I'm aware the fanbase finds this anachronism more amusing than annoying due to the sheer audacity of it (and potential usefulness in gameplay). 

[Slumber]

18 hours ago, Jotari said:

On the subject of Final Fantasy, I'd like to point out that Final Fantasy Tactics had a very European aesthetic yet inexplicably had Ninjas as an available class. I can't recall any major character in the game that uses the class by default though. As far as I'm aware the fanbase finds this anachronism more amusing than annoying due to the sheer audacity of it (and potential usefulness in gameplay). 

Yeah, and the Ninja in Tactics was (Primarily)based on the Thief class.

Also, Tactics was set at a time where guns were a rare, but known, technology. Incidentally, the western world started coming into contact and trading with Japan at around the time guns were developed in Europe.