Do You Think They Changed Some Characters Too Much?

[Thor Odinson]

Then the public should also gain better taste and decide if a change is a net positive artistically, instead of just blindly going "they changed it therefore it sucks". I don't know much about the Dante situation, so for all I cares it could be a genuinely shitty design as well and this comment is not particular to that situation---and like I said earlier, there's a huge difference between the iconic status of a leading character vs a side character with few lines and hardly any identity. I still hold the view that creators have the right to change whatever anyway, if it's going to build a net better product in the end--even the leads, but I can at least understand the outrage with leads being drastically changed as opposed to the situation with boey and co who honestly can't claim enough of an identity to be called iconic.

If we force conformity to the old standards on characters that don't really have enough identity to begin with then the designs are forced to stagnate instead of actually allowing the full range of creativity on what's basically essentially blank slates.

Edited May 10, 2017 by Thor Odinson

[TheWill]

6 hours ago, Thor Odinson said:

Then the public should also gain better taste and decide if a change is a net positive artistically, instead of just blindly going "they changed it therefore it sucks". I don't know much about the Dante situation, so for all I cares it could be a genuinely shitty design as well and this comment is not particular to that situation---and like I said earlier, there's a huge difference between the iconic status of a leading character vs a side character with few lines and hardly any identity. I still hold the view that creators have the right to change whatever anyway, if it's going to build a net better product in the end--even the leads, but I can at least understand the outrage with leads being drastically changed as opposed to the situation with boey and co who honestly can't claim enough of an identity to be called iconic.

If we force conformity to the old standards on characters that don't really have enough identity to begin with then the designs are forced to stagnate instead of actually allowing the full range of creativity on what's basically essentially blank slates.

The problem is, that though yes, developers have every right to change a design, it doesn't mean they should. Whilst yes, people like Boey, Leon and Kliff now look better and more unique, it's not exactly hard to make something look better when in comparison to a game made in the 90's. They could have still looked good and unique whilst maintaining traits from their original incarnation. Alm, Mae, Silque, Valbur, Clive, Saber, Nomah & Mycen all kept their iconic traits in their redesigns (some are almost just an updated version of the original) and look great. With other characters, more liberties were taken (Sonya, Mathilda, Tobin, Genny, Celica & Python), however you can still see the original designs inspiration and that they're still the same character. What was the point of completing cutting off any traits from the original Deen, Boey, Grey or Forsyth? They're the same character in name only. 

As you've said a few times, the argument against leading character and side character is completely valid. The difference between a leading character (Redfield, Dante) compared to a side character (Boey, Forsycth) is enormous. With that said though, that doesn't invalidate the fans of side characters who are disappointed regarding the design changes. Yes, you can argue they should 'get over it'. But, in the same vein, it is completely understandable older fans of the original characters may be upset with their character being completely redesigned. I don't think it's silly at all, whether they're a main character, a side character or the like, in the end they have every right to be disappointed. Whilst the Jugdral series are unlikely to have this issue that Gaiden had with the radical redesigns, it's a fair comparison. If they changed Ayra or Lachesis for example, from their current design instead of just updating them (which is what they done to Boey/etc), I would be annoyed. Unlike Gaiden, I have an attachment to the FE4 cast, but looking at it from this perspective, I can completely sympathise with people who may have been fans of the original Boey's design. Unlike previous people implied, I do enjoy a diverse cast with mixed race, but I'd much rather they introduce more characters to increase diversity rather than changing pre-existing ones. 

[SavageVolug]

I have only played a little bit of Gaiden so here's my 2 cents. I wish Robin's name had stayed the same, and I don't see why Cliff's name needed a slight spelling alteration same deal with Jenny and Silk. I would have liked it if Boey had remained the same in design and I've heard Saber's recruitment conversation has changed. This is definitely disappointing as I LOVE his original conversation. I also would have liked it if the ship was his as in the original it seemed like he himself was basically a pirate and you ride on his ship.

For what it's worth that's my 2 cents on the matter I also would have preferred if town exploration had remained to the free roaming version of what Gaiden had.

[Thor Odinson]

3 hours ago, SlipperySlippy said:

The problem is, that though yes, developers have every right to change a design, it doesn't mean they should. Whilst yes, people like Boey, Leon and Kliff now look better and more unique, it's not exactly hard to make something look better when in comparison to a game made in the 90's. They could have still looked good and unique whilst maintaining traits from their original incarnation. Alm, Mae, Silque, Valbur, Clive, Saber, Nomah & Mycen all kept their iconic traits in their redesigns (some are almost just an updated version of the original) and look great. With other characters, more liberties were taken (Sonya, Mathilda, Tobin, Genny, Celica & Python), however you can still see the original designs inspiration and that they're still the same character. What was the point of completing cutting off any traits from the original Deen, Boey, Grey or Forsyth? They're the same character in name only. 

As you've said a few times, the argument against leading character and side character is completely valid. The difference between a leading character (Redfield, Dante) compared to a side character (Boey, Forsycth) is enormous. With that said though, that doesn't invalidate the fans of side characters who are disappointed regarding the design changes. Yes, you can argue they should 'get over it'. But, in the same vein, it is completely understandable older fans of the original characters may be upset with their character being completely redesigned. I don't think it's silly at all, whether they're a main character, a side character or the like, in the end they have every right to be disappointed. Whilst the Jugdral series are unlikely to have this issue that Gaiden had with the radical redesigns, it's a fair comparison. If they changed Ayra or Lachesis for example, from their current design instead of just updating them (which is what they done to Boey/etc), I would be annoyed. Unlike Gaiden, I have an attachment to the FE4 cast, but looking at it from this perspective, I can completely sympathise with people who may have been fans of the original Boey's design. Unlike previous people implied, I do enjoy a diverse cast with mixed race, but I'd much rather they introduce more characters to increase diversity rather than changing pre-existing ones. 

But why do fans get to decide if a dev should update their own designs? And if we're looking at this from a marketing/appeal pov, then don't they also have a right to outweigh the potential appeal to new people more than the 5 people that might care about a design that look like it was drawn by a 5 year old? 

People can get annoyed, sure, but saying the devs should not let themselves drastically redesign a small fraction of the cast who, by modern standards of characterization, could barely be called characters so much as just a name and a shitty portrait, is honestly a pretty entitled mindset. Hell, Deen and one of the bosses are literally palette swaps of each other. The boss is the one who kept the original design. In this day and age, being palette swaps is not gonna fly, so someone will have to radically change, and Deen's current design matched his personality better than his old design, which is likely why the boss got to keep the old one while Deen, upon gaining a personality, also gained a different look to fit.

Honestly at this point I don't think we're going to agree with each other. I really can't sympathize with the same kind of people who, theoretically if I were to redesign someone that I feel was basically a blank slate and the design was a mistake and I want to make it drastic in order to deliver a better overall product, complain about such a trite thing. This is actually pretty personal for me.

Edited May 10, 2017 by Thor Odinson

[LoyalKing32]

9 hours ago, Thor Odinson said:

But why do fans get to decide if a dev should update their own designs? And if we're looking at this from a marketing/appeal pov, then don't they also have a right to outweigh the potential appeal to new people more than the 5 people that might care about a design that look like it was drawn by a 5 year old? 

People can get annoyed, sure, but saying the devs should not let themselves drastically redesign a small fraction of the cast who, by modern standards of characterization, could barely be called characters so much as just a name and a shitty portrait, is honestly a pretty entitled mindset. Hell, Deen and one of the bosses are literally palette swaps of each other. The boss is the one who kept the original design. In this day and age, being palette swaps is not gonna fly, so someone will have to radically change, and Deen's current design matched his personality better than his old design, which is likely why the boss got to keep the old one while Deen, upon gaining a personality, also gained a different look to fit.

Honestly at this point I don't think we're going to agree with each other. I really can't sympathize with the same kind of people who, theoretically if I were to redesign someone that I feel was basically a blank slate and the design was a mistake and I want to make it drastic in order to deliver a better overall product, complain about such a trite thing. This is actually pretty personal for me.

Exactly! Now people actually want to pick Deen because of his radical design boost. He was nothing but a copy paste of a shared look anyway. Screw that lol.

[Lord of Gabriel Knight]

10 hours ago, Thor Odinson said:

But why do fans get to decide if a dev should update their own designs? And if we're looking at this from a marketing/appeal pov, then don't they also have a right to outweigh the potential appeal to new people more than the 5 people that might care about a design that look like it was drawn by a 5 year old? 

Because they are individuals with free thinking minds. They absolutely can think that something should happen. That doesn't mean developers have to agree or even listen. Just like you think people should not be able to think developers should do something. Are you seriously trying to police what people think? Do you want to silence anyone who doesn't agree?

Edited May 11, 2017 by Lord of Gabriel Knight

[maybe]

5 minutes ago, Lord of Gabriel Knight said:

Because they are individuals with free thinking minds. They absolutely can think that something should happen. That doesn't mean developers have to agree or even listen. Just like you think people should not be able to think developers should do something. Are you seriously trying to police what people think? Do you want to silence anyone who doesn't agree?

i'm not sure where you got the idea from that post that people shouldn't be allowed to think that

the phrasing was "why do fans get to decide if a dev should update their own designs?"

that doesn't imply anywhere that fans aren't allowed to have their opinions on what should happen, just that devs don't have to listen, like you said

 

[Lord of Gabriel Knight]

Because that's what he's saying. He's saying that it's ridiculous that people feel they can decide that developers should or should not do something, because they aren't developers themselves.

[TheWill]

10 hours ago, Thor Odinson said:

But why do fans get to decide if a dev should update their own designs? And if we're looking at this from a marketing/appeal pov, then don't they also have a right to outweigh the potential appeal to new people more than the 5 people that might care about a design that look like it was drawn by a 5 year old? 

People can get annoyed, sure, but saying the devs should not let themselves drastically redesign a small fraction of the cast who, by modern standards of characterization, could barely be called characters so much as just a name and a shitty portrait, is honestly a pretty entitled mindset. Hell, Deen and one of the bosses are literally palette swaps of each other. The boss is the one who kept the original design. In this day and age, being palette swaps is not gonna fly, so someone will have to radically change, and Deen's current design matched his personality better than his old design, which is likely why the boss got to keep the old one while Deen, upon gaining a personality, also gained a different look to fit.

Honestly at this point I don't think we're going to agree with each other. I really can't sympathize with the same kind of people who, theoretically if I were to redesign someone that I feel was basically a blank slate and the design was a mistake and I want to make it drastic in order to deliver a better overall product, complain about such a trite thing. This is actually pretty personal for me.

The thing is, no one is deciding anything outside of Nintendo. Yes, the original designs are much more dated - that's to be expected, it's a game from the 90's. It wouldn't be difficult for any contemporary artist to out perform the standards that were present in games made in the 90's. I also don't think it's right to isolate the fans of the original Gaiden because they're a minority, the point of remakes is often to give tribute to fans of the original game even more so than newer fans. This is evident from the gameplay and design choices in Echoes alone. These characters that Gaiden fans would've grown attached to, would have had their favourite character completely changed. Yes, the original designs were bad, that's why you update them like they did for Mae/Alm/etc and not make an entirely new character to replace the old one.  

The problem is, that the characters weren't drastically redesigned, they were completely redesigned. Deen is not Deen, Kliff is not Kliff, Boey is not Boey. In cases like Mathilda where she remains similar, but lost her ponytail and curly hair, there isn't much problem as her colour scheme and character as an older, attractive blonde motiff remained the same. You can still recognize that it's Mathilda when comparing the older art and the newer art, despite having drastic liberties taken on her design. And yes, reusing mugs (Sonya's sisters, Vrai) is a lazy practice that should be thrown away completely. It's disappointing that Vrai represents Deen much more than the new Deen ever could. 

Regardless, I do understand that this may be a personal topic for you as someone who has worked in the industry. Personally, I do actually find the overarching discussion quite interesting and the psychology behind it. The majority of people voted that they feel they didn't change the original character designs too much, this is likely due to the fact that the new designs are objectively better, however there are characters that changed entirely with no semblance of their original character, which if anyone read that statement without comparing anything, would indicate that yes, they changed characters too much. The important thing to note however, is most people don't care that they changed the characters entirely. 

 

36 minutes ago, LoyalKing32 said:

Exactly! Now people actually want to pick Deen because of his radical design boost. He was nothing but a copy paste of a shared look anyway. Screw that lol.

Exactly? They could've updated Deen and made him look great without changing his design entirely. Like they did for you know, half the cast. As I chose Deen over Sonya in the original, Deen is the only redesign I'm actually disappointed by. Despite completely overhauling his character and keep no iconic traits outside of his scar, he looks incredibly generic and edgy (although the latter isn't always a bad thing).

Either way, from what I've seen, there's still a large preference towards Sonya. Her redesign is also pretty good, so I'l disappointingly be moving towards her now. 

[Thor Odinson]

1 hour ago, Lord of Gabriel Knight said:

Because that's what he's saying. He's saying that it's ridiculous that people feel they can decide that developers should or should not do something, because they aren't developers themselves.

I'm not trying to police what people think so much as also think that it's bullshit an ridiculous that they do. Are you trying to police how I think?

The nuance of the wording of "getting to decide" means that the fans would have a real say in what the devs do. They can think what they want, but they don't get to control a dev's actions.

 

54 minutes ago, SlipperySlippy said:

The thing is, no one is deciding anything outside of Nintendo. Yes, the original designs are much more dated - that's to be expected, it's a game from the 90's. It wouldn't be difficult for any contemporary artist to out perform the standards that were present in games made in the 90's. I also don't think it's right to isolate the fans of the original Gaiden because they're a minority, the point of remakes is often to give tribute to fans of the original game even more so than newer fans. This is evident from the gameplay and design choices in Echoes alone. These characters that Gaiden fans would've grown attached to, would have had their favourite character completely changed. Yes, the original designs were bad, that's why you update them like they did for Mae/Alm/etc and not make an entirely new character to replace the old one.  

The problem is, that the characters weren't drastically redesigned, they were completely redesigned. Deen is not Deen, Kliff is not Kliff, Boey is not Boey. In cases like Mathilda where she remains similar, but lost her ponytail and curly hair, there isn't much problem as her colour scheme and character as an older, attractive blonde motiff remained the same. You can still recognize that it's Mathilda when comparing the older art and the newer art, despite having drastic liberties taken on her design. And yes, reusing mugs (Sonya's sisters, Vrai) is a lazy practice that should be thrown away completely. It's disappointing that Vrai represents Deen much more than the new Deen ever could. 

Regardless, I do understand that this may be a personal topic for you as someone who has worked in the industry. Personally, I do actually find the overarching discussion quite interesting and the psychology behind it. The majority of people voted that they feel they didn't change the original character designs too much, this is likely due to the fact that the new designs are objectively better, however there are characters that changed entirely with no semblance of their original character, which if anyone read that statement without comparing anything, would indicate that yes, they changed characters too much. The important thing to note however, is most people don't care that they changed the characters entirely. 

See this is also where we have different outlooks, even putting my dev background aside. If I get attached to a character in something, but their design looks like potato, will I welcome a complete redesign, palette, hair, etc included? Hell yes. I want my favs to look the best they can be, and if that looks nothing like the potato they used to be? If it's an executive, official decision, then I welcome that. 

I also think there's more water to the character identity argument if there were more personality to the characters, and then the design was designed to that character's personality---sometimes the drawings can be of poor quality, but the designs don't necessarily are. I think my biggest roadblock to understanding this argument as applied to gaiden characters is that they had very little, if any, personality, and I have a hard time connecting character identity to design with that. 

Edited May 11, 2017 by Thor Odinson

[LoyalKing32]

1 hour ago, SlipperySlippy said:

The thing is, no one is deciding anything outside of Nintendo. Yes, the original designs are much more dated - that's to be expected, it's a game from the 90's. It wouldn't be difficult for any contemporary artist to out perform the standards that were present in games made in the 90's. I also don't think it's right to isolate the fans of the original Gaiden because they're a minority, the point of remakes is often to give tribute to fans of the original game even more so than newer fans. This is evident from the gameplay and design choices in Echoes alone. These characters that Gaiden fans would've grown attached to, would have had their favourite character completely changed. Yes, the original designs were bad, that's why you update them like they did for Mae/Alm/etc and not make an entirely new character to replace the old one.  

The problem is, that the characters weren't drastically redesigned, they were completely redesigned. Deen is not Deen, Kliff is not Kliff, Boey is not Boey. In cases like Mathilda where she remains similar, but lost her ponytail and curly hair, there isn't much problem as her colour scheme and character as an older, attractive blonde motiff remained the same. You can still recognize that it's Mathilda when comparing the older art and the newer art, despite having drastic liberties taken on her design. And yes, reusing mugs (Sonya's sisters, Vrai) is a lazy practice that should be thrown away completely. It's disappointing that Vrai represents Deen much more than the new Deen ever could. 

Regardless, I do understand that this may be a personal topic for you as someone who has worked in the industry. Personally, I do actually find the overarching discussion quite interesting and the psychology behind it. The majority of people voted that they feel they didn't change the original character designs too much, this is likely due to the fact that the new designs are objectively better, however there are characters that changed entirely with no semblance of their original character, which if anyone read that statement without comparing anything, would indicate that yes, they changed characters too much. The important thing to note however, is most people don't care that they changed the characters entirely. 

 

Exactly? They could've updated Deen and made him look great without changing his design entirely. Like they did for you know, half the cast. As I chose Deen over Sonya in the original, Deen is the only redesign I'm actually disappointed by. Despite completely overhauling his character and keep no iconic traits outside of his scar, he looks incredibly generic and edgy (although the latter isn't always a bad thing).

Either way, from what I've seen, there's still a large preference towards Sonya. Her redesign is also pretty good, so I'l disappointingly be moving towards her now. 

Lol nah. His old design is trash imo. his new design is great and badass.

[TheWill]

3 minutes ago, LoyalKing32 said:

Lol nah. His old design is trash imo. his new design is great and badass.

All the old designs were trash. As said earlier, objectively all the designs are better. The old designs were done in the 90's. The designs being good or not wasn't really the point.

As for Thor, I'll try explain myself better when I get time later tonight. At uni right now.

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

I think Deen's new design can go directly into the bin. I have to echo the sentiment that Deen should have had Vrai's design; particularly on account of Awakening.

Most of the canon characterization for the Gaiden cast came from Awakening, which was indeed a somewhat present bit of characterization; but people were genuinely debating if Boey was Boey for a while, because they left out his green hair. If Boey had had green hair he would be at least recognizable even with the dark skin.

the same issue applies to Deen. I genuinely had trouble believing this was Deen once Vrai's portrait was put out and I was certain the two had been swapped, because Vrai looks like Deen as he appeared in Awakening. Vrai is more recognizable as Deen than Deen is.

 

i can kind of see what they were trying to do with Deen (make him the Echoes version of Navarre-lite in the same way as Rutger, Zihark, Lon 'Qu, etc), but it was done at the cost of him not looking like Deen anymore.

 

that alongside Deen being pointless to the story makes Sonya an instant choice for Echoes in some ways, which who knows that might have been the idea and Intelligent Systems is trying to play us.

Mycen and Nomah are decent examples on redesigns I actually like for Echoes because I can look at them and say "yea that's definitely Nomah" even though I couldn't see the text. The argument of not being iconic designs holds true for a few characters, but by no means does it hold entirely true for the units who appeared in Awakening and have much wider appeal than the rest of the cast.

Also, Taitiana no longer looks like Nyna, which is an important connection that may or may not have been intentional that is now gone.

 

i want to say it's not all doom and gloom here; I like how Camus's design is faithful to FE11, while being a mix of both his 11 and 12 design to try and bridge the gap between the two as an interquel should. Camus is a very good example of an Echoes redesign that even serves the plot, by helping to facilitate Echoes's status as an interquel.

Edited May 11, 2017 by Hero of the Fire Emblems

[Tsak]

34 minutes ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

I think Deen's new design can go directly into the bin. I have to echo the sentiment that Deen should have had Vrai's design; particularly on account of Awakening.

Despite me having a Deen avatar i think you need to really take to to appreciate how ridiculous Vrai and Deen once looked.
He was desperately in need of a redesign. Like don't get me wrong i love booting up Yu Yu Hakusho and enjoying me some Kuwabara but hes straight up a trope.
They took a drastic redesign and made him actually stand out in a meaningful way. Vrai even with Deen's basic portrait doesn't stand out and he's forgettable. If they were switched i'd actually be aggravated that i wouldn't be able to recruit Vrai. Not because i like edgy character or anything i could care less, but because the artist took a huge liberty and tried to make something of a random side character.

38 minutes ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

the same issue applies to Deen. I genuinely had trouble believing this was Deen once Vrai's portrait was put out and I was certain the two had been swapped, because Vrai looks like Deen as he appeared in Awakening. Vrai is more recognizable as Deen than Deen is.

But Deen is completely forgettable as he is with such a design, like saying he deserves to have his original design is silly (basically a palette swap of Vrai in gaiden anyways)

42 minutes ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

i can kind of see what they were trying to do with Deen (make him the Echoes version of Navarre-lite in the same way as Rutger, Zihark, Lon 'Qu, etc), but it was done at the cost of him not looking like Deen anymore.

I guess? man of few words, its not a complex character design? he was the same before really, disappears after the war etc. He's never had much plot relevance now he has a support with Jesse and conveys to him that he should be careful not to end up like him etc. I wouldn't say he really has any sort of character development compared to someone like Rutger whose sole purpose is revenge and has way more in supports to make him a believable character.

46 minutes ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

that alongside Deen being pointless to the story makes Sonya an instant choice for Echoes in some ways, which who knows that might have been the idea and Intelligent Systems is trying to play us.

I disagree, this redesign in my opinion makes him MORE of a choice than he was before. he doesn't look like some sort of goofy japanese gangster trope, hes the other purple person in Greith's Band of Bad dudes that you can recruit. And if you choose not to he makes a dangerous boss fight (Valbar please save you) etc

48 minutes ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

Mycen and Nomah are decent examples on redesigns I actually like for Echoes because I can look at them and say "yea that's definitely Nomah" even though I couldn't see the text. The argument of not being iconic designs holds true for a few characters, but by no means does it hold entirely true for the units who appeared in Awakening and have much wider appeal than the rest of the cast.

Because both of these characters are so much more relevant plot-wise. If Dean has his own palette in OG gaiden im sure there would be more emphasis to modernize his original design instead of remake it completely. Just because they appeared as a spotpass unit in awakening doesn't mean they deserve to look ridiculous.

[Baldrick]

16 hours ago, Thor Odinson said:

People can get annoyed, sure, but saying the devs should not let themselves drastically redesign a small fraction of the cast who, by modern standards of characterization, could barely be called characters so much as just a name and a shitty portrait, is honestly a pretty entitled mindset. Hell, Deen and one of the bosses are literally palette swaps of each other. The boss is the one who kept the original design. In this day and age, being palette swaps is not gonna fly, so someone will have to radically change, and Deen's current design matched his personality better than his old design, which is likely why the boss got to keep the old one while Deen, upon gaining a personality, also gained a different look to fit.

Bolded: That's not true. In FE1 there were many palette swaps, (e.g. Barts/Maji/Saji, Machis/Biraku, Caesar/Radd, Navarre/Michalis) and their FE3 portraits made them distinctive while still being recognisable. Echoes' portraits being more elaborate, it would be even easier to give Deen and Vrai the same treatment.

[Sakaiza]

Since I play in Japanese without understanding the dialogues (really a shame because the Japanese dubbers seem to be the best in the world), I only have portraits and 3D modeling to get an idea of the characters.
And for me, it seems obvious that Deen is hands down the dopest looking character in the game.

Without him, I would have struggled to find a favorite character in this game.

 I discovered the Fire Emblem saga with Awakening and my favorite male characters are Owain / Odin and Saizo but Deen definitely put the bar higher in terms of character design.

[TheWill]

4 hours ago, Thor Odinson said:

See this is also where we have different outlooks, even putting my dev background aside. If I get attached to a character in something, but their design looks like potato, will I welcome a complete redesign, palette, hair, etc included? Hell yes. I want my favs to look the best they can be, and if that looks nothing like the potato they used to be? If it's an executive, official decision, then I welcome that. 

I also think there's more water to the character identity argument if there were more personality to the characters, and then the design was designed to that character's personality---sometimes the drawings can be of poor quality, but the designs don't necessarily are. I think my biggest roadblock to understanding this argument as applied to gaiden characters is that they had very little, if any, personality, and I have a hard time connecting character identity to design with that. 

I think it's hard to make a comparison like this, as designs are likely one of many reasons in initially forming an attachment. Either way, I'll try my best to explain my reasoning coherently. But to go by what you're saying, I agree that there is nothing wrong with updating designs. That is, as long as it's just updating the character to meet contemporary standards and not rebuilding the character entirely. I think this is the pivotal difference between our views. As you said, design liberties taken to promote a character's personality or background are completely fine. For example, despite Clair's radical design changes, I think hers makes sense and is completely excusable as her new design clearly highlights her upper-class background and blood relation to Kliff. Similarly, Sonya's sisters got changed hairstyles which is nice as they weren't triplets, whilst in the original they used the same mug. On the other hand, there just isn't any excuse for the complete overhaul to characters like Deen, Grey and Kliff. They also did change character identities, although that is an entirely different discussion.

As you said, Gaiden's characters didn't have much identity or character because of how limited game design was back in the 90's. But, in my opinion, that makes it even more important to maintain the characters initial traits. They done this for a majority of the cast, so why couldn't they do it for all of them? 

• Alm kept his iconic green hair and blue armour.
• Mae kept her pink hair, pigtails and bubbly persona.
• Valbur kept his brown hair, broad build and enormous chin. 
• Saber kept his eyepatch, red hair and tough look. 
• Silque kept her blue hair, bob-cut and is donning a very similar outfit.
• Clive, Mycen & Nomah are almost identical to their original designs.  

Then we can look at the characters of whom took liberties, but still maintain the ability to recognise the character from Gaiden in a new, updated look.

• Celica lost her yellow colour scheme, but maintained her iconic red hair and keeps a similar (but updated) style. 
• Mathilda lost her ponytail and messy hair, but kept her blue/white colour scheme and maintained her identity as a strong, yet attractive older woman. 
• Python clothing got a complete overhaul, yet he maintained his blue hair and messy bangs. 
• Sonya's hairstyle was changed, but she maintained a similar (yet updated) outfit. 

Yet on the other hand, characters like Boey, Kliff, Deen, Atlas, Grey and Forsycth are completely new characters just using the same name. As people have said, they may love Deen now and that's great! But unlike Alm, Celica, Mae, etc. who maintained their original inspiration, the new Deen is nothing like the fans of the old Deen would have been. Now, for this I feel like you disagree on whether this is an issue or not. This is where I feel like it's much more subjective, but to put it in perspective with the (likely) upcoming redesigns of the Jugdral cast a couple years from now. Imagine the following scenarios: 

• Ayra's changed to pale, blonde-haired, sickly swordfighter.
• Arden gets plastic surgery and becomes extremely attractive. 
• Claud's skin colour is completely changed and is given pitch black hair. 
• Oifey loses his moustache. 

I tried to show examples on different sides of the spectrum, but either way I feel like all of these are negative changes to the character. These aspects, whether minor or not, help players not only identify the characters, but are traits that become iconic to them. Yes, Arden becoming attractive might involve a net gain in making him a popular character, however his looks are a part of his identity. If they wanted to change the way he looks, that is alright as long as it keeps some semblance of what made Arden, Arden. 

[Thor Odinson]

Hm, I can see where you're coming from here, though I think our views still radically differ. I see that some of you form the identity by the portrait alone, while I need a personality and a portrait designed, in some sense, based on personality/backstory, with portrait second. Back to my designer background, this happens a lot in the earlier days of DoF where I design a character first, and then we come up with a personality/background later, which unless we matched the personality/background to the portrait directly, just serves to give me, as the designer, a disconnect on the character. Characters who have basically no personality etc just feels like blank slates to me--because if that was lacking, then I have a hard time seeing them as characters at all.

Arden's bullied by Alec, so the unattractiveness also makes sense. Claud I wouldn't mind if they also update the Crusader Blaggi to have similar features--since people with major Holy Blood, especially, tend to resemble their crusaders somewhat in design. Sickliness would not suit Ayra's character because of her strength, but blonde hair isn't necessarily a crime given that Chulainn, another Odo, has it. Oifey's stashe is pretty subjective, I'll admit. I also feel that the Geneology cast for the most part has a bit more personality to them, though---or a lot more, depending on the character, with some exceptions (Naoise, for example, if they give him pink hair the only complaint I'll have is that it clashes with his armor).

You mentioned Claire as an acceptable complete remodel because it fits her, but Deen's lines, from what I've been reading out of the translations, are pretty edgy, and it's likely that with this new personality update (not much to go off of in the original, unfortunately) that he got something so drastic.

But anyway I do see where you're coming from and even though we fundamentally disagree I do see your reasonings better now.

Edited May 11, 2017 by Thor Odinson

[Azure Sen]

9 hours ago, SlipperySlippy said:

As you said, Gaiden's characters didn't have much identity or character because of how limited game design was back in the 90's. But, in my opinion, that makes it even more important to maintain the characters initial traits. They done this for a majority of the cast, so why couldn't they do it for all of them? 

There were plenty of characters even back when Gaiden released that didn't have a consistent design, between the game cover, in-game portraits, manga, artbooks and manuals (I'm discounting the Awakening non-SpotPass DLC art here for convenience's sake). For example:

9 hours ago, SlipperySlippy said:

• Alm kept his iconic green hair and blue armour.
• Mae kept her pink hair, pigtails and bubbly persona.
• Valbur kept his brown hair, broad build and enormous chin. 
• Saber kept his eyepatch, red hair and tough look. 
• Silque kept her blue hair, bob-cut and is donning a very similar outfit.
• Clive, Mycen & Nomah are almost identical to their original designs.  

• Alm didn't have green hair in-game, it was blue, a trait which quite a bit of artwork keeps. His in-game armor was also a lighter blue.
• Mae was one of the characters to keep a consistent design.
• One design of Valbar had blond hair and no prominent chin. The cover art design of Valbar has blue hair, no prominent chin, and a different color scheme than he had in Gaiden.
• Saber's eyepatch flipped eyes between designs.
• Silque had purple and green hair at various points, not to mention her original hair was a much darker shade of blue..
• Clive had a scar in some artwork and light brown/dirty blond hair in-game in Gaiden.
• Nomah and Mycen are the only characters of those you listed here who have a consistent design, and even Mycen has different colored armor between game and artwork.

9 hours ago, SlipperySlippy said:

• Celica lost her yellow colour scheme, but maintained her iconic red hair and keeps a similar (but updated) style. 
• Mathilda lost her ponytail and messy hair, but kept her blue/white colour scheme and maintained her identity as a strong, yet attractive older woman. 
• Python clothing got a complete overhaul, yet he maintained his blue hair and messy bangs. 
• Sonya's hairstyle was changed, but she maintained a similar (yet updated) outfit. 

• Celica, Sonia and Mathilda have remained fairly consistent.
• Python's design is pretty different depending on the artwork, with the bangs and hair color being the only consistent thing.

9 hours ago, SlipperySlippy said:

Yet on the other hand, characters like Boey, Kliff, Deen, Atlas, Grey and Forsycth are completely new characters just using the same name. 

• Boey had red hair in-game but green hair in other artwork, plus a different hairstyle.
• Kliff had brown hair in artwork and red hair in Gaiden, on top of the different outfit and having a bucktooth in his portrait which his artwork does not posses. He was also a palette swap.
• Deen had red hair in-game and blonde hair in artwork. His injured eye also flipped sides of his face between artwork, and he was also a palette swap.
• Atlus, Grey and Forsyth were all palette swaps so they had no unique design outside of some variation in facial expression.

Oh, and speaking of inconsistent designs:

• Leon had brown hair and a different hairstyle in some artwork.
• Clair had blue hair in-game in Gaiden, red hair in artwork, and a different hairstyle and color scheme depending on which hair color she had.

9 hours ago, SlipperySlippy said:

This is where I feel like it's much more subjective, but to put it in perspective with the (likely) upcoming redesigns of the Jugdral cast a couple years from now. Imagine the following scenarios: 

• Ayra's changed to pale, blonde-haired, sickly swordfighter.
• Arden gets plastic surgery and becomes extremely attractive. 
• Claud's skin colour is completely changed and is given pitch black hair. 
• Oifey loses his moustache. 

I tried to show examples on different sides of the spectrum, but either way I feel like all of these are negative changes to the character...Yes, Arden becoming attractive might involve a net gain in making him a popular character, however his looks are a part of his identity. If they wanted to change the way he looks, that is alright as long as it keeps some semblance of what made Arden, Arden. 

This example doesn't work because, unlike the Gaiden cast, the Genealogy cast had established personalities and consistent designs, so there's no need to change them. Most of Gaiden's portraits were either palette swaps or put together piecemeal from FE1 portraits, and as I just pointed out above many of them didn't have consistent designs even back then. 

In fact, given that a lot of characters in Gaiden had portraits that were palette swaps or mishmashes of portraits from FE1 and that their designs changed from source to source, wouldn't the drastic changes made for Echoes be a good thing because it gives them the distinct character design traits that a lot of them lacked in the original as well as a concrete, "definitive" character design?

9 hours ago, SlipperySlippy said:

These aspects, whether minor or not, help players not only identify the characters, but are traits that become iconic to them. 

This is going to get a bit rant-y and I apologize in advance, but that's not what iconic means and it bugs me when people call things iconic without any consideration as to whether or not the thing they're talking about is actually iconic. Something iconic has burned itself into the collective unconsciousness, has earned itself a lasting place in the ever-changing landscape of human culture, and is instantly recognizable to untold numbers of people. It is not the same thing as a character having certain traits associated with them, and it especially doesn't apply in the case of Gaiden where those traits often aren't consistent. To use an example of an iconic trait from an actual icon, Darth Vader's breath is iconic because it's a unique element of his character that adds to his intimidation factor because of how inhuman it is, and it's an easily identifiable aspect that generally immediately brings Vader to mind. By contrast, Alm having green hair doesn't even make him unique among Fire Emblem characters, nor does it add to his character, nor does it make him easily identifiable given that he has blue hair half the time anyway. 

@Lord of Gabriel Knight, Dante's a bad example, because not only did they change his design but they also drastically changed his backstory and personality. Most Gaiden characters barely had lines let alone a fully fleshed-out personality like original Dante did.

Edited May 11, 2017 by AzureSen

[Lord of Gabriel Knight]

A lot of these inconsistencies are extremely minor. Cliff doesn't have red hair in game, that's brown. And he's smiling, not a buck tooth.

Atlas, Grey, and Forsyth may have similar bases, but they all have extremely easy to identify differences. Atlas has a flat top, Grey has shaggy hair, and Forsyth has tidy hair that goes over one eye. Saying they don't have any unique qualities is completely wrong.

Saber's eyepatch being on his left or right eye is irrelevant.

Boey had red hair in game and in official art, which outnumbers the art depicting him with green hair.

Mathilda is not consistent. She lacked a helmet originally and had wavy hair.

Python's hair style and color being the same through designs is consistent for his physical body.

Also, seeing as the official artist for both FE1 and FE3 drew the art that's most consistent with the designs in game, it's clear which ones should be considered the officially accepted designs.

Edited May 11, 2017 by Lord of Gabriel Knight

[Baldrick]

10 hours ago, AzureSen said:

In fact, given that a lot of characters in Gaiden had portraits that were palette swaps or mishmashes of portraits from FE1 and that their designs changed from source to source, wouldn't the drastic changes made for Echoes be a good thing because it gives them the distinct character design traits that a lot of them lacked in the original as well as a concrete, "definitive" character design?

It wasn't addressed to you, but I'd like you to respond to my earlier post. Even in the SNES era they had distinct character designs without drastically changing anything.

Hypothetically, say Faye didn't exist as a character and her design was being considered for Silque. All things being equal, wouldn't it be better to use the design that more closely resembles her Gaiden incarnation?

Edited May 12, 2017 by Baldrick

[Crubat]

8 hours ago, Baldrick said:

It wasn't addressed to you, but I'd like you to respond to my earlier post. Even in the SNES era they had distinct character designs without drastically changing anything.

Hypothetically, say Faye didn't exist as a character and her design was being considered for Silque. All things being equal, wouldn't it be better to use the design that more closely resembles her Gaiden incarnation?

But Silque looked different from other characters AND Faye was designed as a villager girl, not a cleric.

[Baldrick]

28 minutes ago, Crubat said:

But Silque looked different from other characters AND Faye was designed as a villager girl, not a cleric.

It's bad when a character's look completely changes, isn't it? This is what happened to several characters.

[Tsak]

1 hour ago, Baldrick said:

It's bad when a character's look completely changes, isn't it? This is what happened to several characters.

and a lot of them were palette swaps...
Even the villagers are basically palette swaps with slightly different hair and colors
That being said despite them getting changes Tobin's hair is still the same just brown instead of purple, as does Clive's etc
To be completely honest, most people who had a flat top just straight up lost that stupid Arnold Schwarzenegger haircut that was so popular in the 90s

[Crubat]

1 hour ago, Baldrick said:

It's bad when a character's look completely changes, isn't it? This is what happened to several characters.

Well, not really. It's a welcome change than the three villages look the same with a few facial difference. In my opinion, why not have new character designs? It basically means new characters and are certainly more likable than the old ones.