Origins of Mila and Duma (unmarked Endgame spoilers)

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

Wait a second... are YOU the on that's been editing the wiki and saying that Forneus founded the Grimleal? 

But yeah, I do agree that Forneus might be the ancestor of Validar and Robin. If it was his blood that was mixed in with Grima, then its likely the pact was forged there. But this is the weird thing as Grima is the one receiving the pact more, rather than the other way. 

The Jugdral series shows that the dragons give the humans their blood. Instead we see Grima being the one receiving blood.

What's curious is because we KNOW the brand of the defiler is a Jugdral style blood pact, just like the brand of the exalt, at some point a proper blood pact was made- but it definitely is intriguing. It's possible Forenus made a proper blood pact with his own creation.

 

Also no, I'm not active on the wiki at all right now.

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

What's curious is because we KNOW the brand of the defiler is a Jugdral style blood pact, just like the brand of the exalt, at some point a proper blood pact was made- but it definitely is intriguing. It's possible Forenus made a proper blood pact with his own creation.

 

Also no, I'm not active on the wiki at all right now.

Okay, just making sure. XP

The blood pacts didn't originate in Jugdral though. Its like a forbidden and ancient magic that the dragons already are aware of. I say forbidden because it seems to be something that no dragon wants to do because of the consequences that comes with it. However, elements of Jugdral does exist in Grima's creation, as those "insects" I keep mentioning are what created the Deadlords, and Forneus likely got the insects from there. There is likely information about the blood pacts there as well. 

The only thing that isn't connected just yet is Loptyr and Grima themselves.

[VincentASM]

6 minutes ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

What's curious is because we KNOW the brand of the defiler is a Jugdral style blood pact, just like the brand of the exalt, at some point a proper blood pact was made- but it definitely is intriguing. It's possible Forenus made a proper blood pact with his own creation.

I think the latter is a distinct possibility, although he made have made it unknowingly.

The voice in his head is a tell-tale sign of a blood pact.

That said, the way he did it seems to be the other way round, in that he transferred his blood to Grima.

Actually, it's possible Forneus was a dragon (probably not divine though) since it's implied Thabes was built by dragons.

Edited April 30, 2017 by VincentASM

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, VincentASM said:

That said, the way he did it seems to be the other way round, in that he transferred his blood to Grima.

Exactly what I was saying. Its the complete reverse of how the blood pacts in Jugdral works.

2 minutes ago, VincentASM said:

Actually, it's possible Forneus was a dragon (probably not divine though) since it's implied Thabes was built by dragons.

All we got was that he was an alchemist. Thabes being built by dragons wouldn't necessarily mean that he'd need to be a dragon per se. 

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

4 minutes ago, VincentASM said:

I think the latter is a distinct possibility, although he made have made it unknowingly.

The voice in his head is a tell-tale sign of a blood pact.

That said, the way he did it seems to be the other way round, in that he transferred his blood to Grima.

Actually, it's possible Forneus was a dragon (probably not divine though) since it's implied Thabes was built by dragons.

....Would that make a double blood pact if Forenus is a dragon?

 

Quite the hell of a rabbit hole that would be

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

....Would that make a double blood pact if Forenus is a dragon?

Quite the hell of a rabbit hole that would be

That would mean that Forneus is a manakete and by extension, all his descendants would be manaketes as well. And no, blood pacts work 1 way. The dragon GIVES blood to the other person, and that person receives the power of that dragon. 

Grima receiving blood from Forneus means that Grima's the one receiving power. 

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

7 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

That would mean that Forneus is a manakete and by extension, all his descendants would be manaketes as well. And no, blood pacts work 1 way. The dragon GIVES blood to the other person, and that person receives the power of that dragon. 

Grima receiving blood from Forneus means that Grima's the one receiving power. 

Then that likely means the Brand of the Defiler is a seperate event from Forenus giving Grima blood; whether it be by Forenus himself or someone else

 

that assertion also isn't completely true; as the Hoshido/Nohrian Royals are descended from Dragons afaik without themselves being Manaketes, and ditto for the Branded of Tellius but that might be a special case

 

just a suggestion, but could we look to the Brand and iirc Blood Pact elaborated on in Echoes involving Duma, of which Alm is a part (including a Brand of Duma) to shed any light on the situation, perhaps?

Edited April 30, 2017 by Hero of the Fire Emblems

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

Then that likely means the Brand of the Defiler is a seperate event from Forenus giving Grima blood; whether it be by Forenus himself or someone else

If you actually look at the two Brands, you'll actually notice how the Defile brand lives up the the name defile, as its brand is actually a corruption of the Exalt's Brand, which is Naga's mark.

[Emperor Hardin]

5 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

This argument is literally pointless the more we go on about it. It all stemmed from the fact that you don't like that Duma is a dragon, or more like a Divine Dragon because of all the elemental stuff. But he's a Divine Dragon. Retcon. It happened. Basically, deal with it. 

Said "dragon's tooth" is imbued with the magical power and properties of Naga herself. The fang of the dragon holds all her power. Hell, Awakening pretty much guaranteed that, as the Falchion was at full power before, but upon this blood pact renewal or such through the Awakening process, the blade attained the ability to seal Grima himself away, a power that Falchion never had before. But after the Gemstones are separated from the Shield of Seals, the sealing pretty much worked in reverse, and thus the blade's power was weakened. This last part is actually what I theorize as to why Falchion's power was somehow sealed. 

Naga even stated this when she unlocked Falchion's full power.

"With my blessing, thou may draw forth Falchion's true might. The blade of the exalts shall again strike like the dragon's fang. Your strength will then be my equal."

^ In other words, Falchion's full power IS in fact the entirety of Naga's own power. It's precisely because of this that Falchion is regarded as the ultimate godslayer without equal by Mila, because i there's nothing or no one stronger than Naga, then her fang has no equals. And before you pull the "different Naga" notion, remember that this Naga is likely Nagi, Naga's reincarnation, and also this Naga has the power to bend the fabric of space-time. This already shows that this new Naga is by no means a slouch, and the fact that Tiki can replace her and she's already been mentioned to have the potential to rival/surpass the original Naga, this just further proves my point.

It's not explained why Grima can only be killed by his own power, but Loptyr's isn't the same case. Grima might resemble Loptyr through their parallels, but whereas Loptyr pulled the same line as Medeus about coming back with no clear indication that he ever does, its directly stated that Naga CANNOT kill Grima, and her power can only at best put him to sleep, and Grima can ONLY be killed by his own power, which Grima ultimately screwed himself over by going back in time.

Whether Loptyr went to sleep is unsure, because the last living descendent that we know held Loptyr blood was Julius. Unless Saias was confirmed to hold the blood as well, Loptyr has no bloodline left, and that would essentially mean the pact itself is broken, so Loptyr's ability to even exist through his tome is rendered null.

I am not DENYING what Kaga said. I'm saying the other factors that we have seen in the game and the case with how Kaga described Naga's position in the matter. In the game, we see that Loptyr and Forseti did in fact possess their hosts. Naga never did, but I believe Julia mentioned feeling Naga's will. Not sure completely. Anyways, Julia wasn't fully affected in the case that she was possessed. Now, going with what Kaga said, whereas Naga worried over the fact that putting her will into the tome would mean she would influence humans, this was worrisome because she didn't want/like to meddle with humans. 

Loptyr hated humans with such a passion that anyone taking his tome gets overwhelmed by that will. Forseti was stated to have a strong compassion for humans and was even willing to break the decree that dragons should not meddle in the affairs of humans. But his compassion was said to have passed into the tome. 

I do not deny Naga's will being placed into the tome. I DO deny that she put all her will when she dislikes the idea of being involved with humans in such a degree, and personality of the dragons do hold an effect on their will through the tome. 

I no longer deny the notion that there could have been other Shadow Dragons in the past. However, Shadow Dragons are not limited to just Earth Dragons, which you can at least acknowledge as well.

Look at him in both cases, both in Gaiden and then in SoV.

One case shows that he's some freaky slime monsters, but if you actually look closely, he looks somewhat like a dracozombie. The other case, Duma's shown to be a Dragon, and he's a Divine Dragon. However, Divine Dragon's skin are gold or silver usually. However, Duma's skin alters to a darker scheme, going to a midnight blue. Even if he wasn't a true Shadow Dragon, its clear that his power was growing darker and more sinister. 

If any of the Dragon Tribes are capable of being corrupted into the point that they became Shadow Dragons, then Duma was definitely becoming one, if the look he has in SoV isn't him already one. 

FE4 had a novel? I don't recall that ever being mentioned or shown here in Serenes. Also, did you really miss the part where I said that Grima isn't let off the hook for that? In Awakening, the story is flawed and the pacing is just really rushed. Genealogy is a great story, superior to Awakening's in many ways. However, because its so great that you have to realize that Loptyr actually WASN'T that great of a villain. The entire point of the story was more about Manfroy's plot to revive Loptyr and thus exact vengeance on the people that persecuted the Loptyrians. 

But Loptyr appeared literally that one time, and everything we learned in the interview and the rest of how the Earth Dragons were, is just a bad reason. Loptyr being bitter about humans taking over does seem to be a case, but it would make way more sense for Loptyr to hate the Divine Dragons more if anything. They're the ones that suggested it, and they are the ones that stopped the Earth Dragons when they attacked humanity. Loptyr doesn't know what became of the Divine Dragon tribe because he abandoned the war midway, but he was sure that the Earth Dragons would lose. But instead all he wanted to do was just terrorize humans that have actually done him no wrong, and that just makes him that much more petty in my opinion.

For everything that was great about Genealogy, Loptyr himself wasn't. 

Also, if we go with the assumption that Naga's tome holds her power and rivals Falchion, which is called the strongest weapon and I just pointed out that Falchion's full power rivals the might of Naga herself, then I'm not really denying that Naga and Loptyr are equals from that point, am I? 

Xane imitates people. His own stats show that he's JUST as frail as every other Manakete. 

Did you miss the thing that even when he was just created, or a bit afterwards, there were destructive thoughts that was taking Forneus? 

Also, are you ACTUALLY saying that spirits makes brain degradation moot? The Earth Dragon's "shell" still houses a degenerated brain that only has destructive urges. Creating Grima from degenerated dragons, the degeneration is always active in the dragon's body, and thus would be "inherited" into Grima. Let's also add the fact that this is dark alchemy and using insects that creates the Deadlords and later on the Risen. 

To say that Grima's sentience would by no means gain those destructive thoughts from all that makes absolutely no sense. 

More like this argument because you don't like that Duma being an Earth Dragon would make sense so you come up with ridiculous and unbelievable explanations like an Earth Dragon would take Manakete form, learn how to use a sword, and use Falchion to kill Naga.

The original Falchion was not imbued with Naga's power, the Tome contained all of Naga's power, which you repeatedly ignore in favor of fan fiction.

Keep in mind the Naga in Awakening is implied to be different to begin with. Again Kaga says the tome is Naga's ultimate power, but you just ignore it repeatedly just like you ignore everything from FE4.

Naga couldn't kill Loptyr  in the entirety as well and was weakened enough fighting Lotpyr to the point of death.

Grima is the same way, without a mark carrier, he has nothing. So all in all, he just has an extra weakness then Lotpyr, the ability to die for good without losing any mark carriers.

Julia's one line in the final map specifically states she feels different after touching the tome, and Heim never appeared in the game's present, so we have no reason to doubt Kaga's words were untrue. Naga worried about it, but Naga still did it. Again you're just clinging onto this for the sake of your fanon that Loptyr was weaker then Naga and Grima is the greatest character in the series.

All known Shadow Dragons in Archanea and Jugdral are Earth, Gotoh even says Dark Earth Dragon. The ornament on the Darksphere is specifically a Dark Earth Dragon, showing again that the spheres were not created by Divine Dragons alone.

Yeah, Duma looks nothing at all like a Shadow Dragon, he looks  like a very decayed dragon with a single eye. His skin is darker because its literally decaying and filthy.

Lore never indicates Xane is any weaker then a human fighting on his own and his stat growths are decent in the original.

Grima wanted destruction because he wanted destruction, not because it was something innate in him.

No the Earth Dragon shell would not contain their mind because the spirit(essentially the brain) would've already left to regenerate a new body, hence the snake skin analogy.

To say that Grima would be sentient and have a degenerated dragon's mind is what makes no sense.

1 hour ago, VincentASM said:

I think the latter is a distinct possibility, although he made have made it unknowingly.

The voice in his head is a tell-tale sign of a blood pact.

That said, the way he did it seems to be the other way round, in that he transferred his blood to Grima.

Actually, it's possible Forneus was a dragon (probably not divine though) since it's implied Thabes was built by dragons.

I'm kind of doubtful, nothing shows Dragons do alchemy like this, and human blood was likely done to explain Validar and  perhaps Grima's inexplicable human face.

There's a magic using skeleton enemy, Deimos, described as the skeleton of a sorcerer, this may be intended to be Forneus.

4 hours ago, Armagon said:

The War Dragons are much different. War Dragons are essentially just drones that Idunn can make an infinite supply of. War Dragons had no sense of self, they just follow orders and that's it. Grima, on the other hand, is just an unholy abomination, and definitely has a mind of his own. Also, since Forenus is never actually seen, i'm going to assume Grima ate him or something, unless i'm missing something. We don't know how long it took for Grima to be created. All we know as that he wrecks havoc 1000 years later.

Its never stated War Dragons have no sentience, all thats stated is they know nothing but battle. Keep in mind they were used as expendable soldiers for the losing side of a war of extermination, thus preventing them from living long enough to develop personality.

Morphs, who are heavily implied to be War Dragon research used for humans, can develop personalities if given the time.

Grima is effectively just a super war dragon, basically.

Edited April 30, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Emperor Hardin said:

More like this argument because you don't like that Duma being an Earth Dragon would make sense so you come up with ridiculous and unbelievable explanations like an Earth Dragon would take Manakete form, learn how to use a sword, and use Falchion to kill Naga.

And yet there are believers that say that Naga would assume Manakete form, use Falchion in the war with the Earth Dragons. Your point? 

1 minute ago, Emperor Hardin said:

The original Falchion was not imbued with Naga's power, the Tome contained all of Naga's power, which you repeatedly ignore in favor of fan fiction.

Are you for real right now? It's ALREADY confirmed that the Falchion that Chrom and Lucina use is the SAME Falchion that Marth used, that was used by Anri, that was created by the original Naga, and the Awakening Naga directly mentioned that Falchion's full powers rivals Naga's own.

3 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Keep in mind the Naga in Awakening is implied to be different to begin with. Again Kaga says the tome is Naga's ultimate power, but you just ignore it repeatedly just like you ignore everything from FE4.

... Did you REALLY miss what I JUST said about the notion of the different Naga? Really? Alright, repeating myself then, I guess. 

Different Naga or not, this is a Naga that bends the fabric of space-time, by allowing the violation of a taboo of making people travel back in time. Exactly how is it that you can say that just because this is a different Naga that she is in fact weaker than the original Naga? Furthermore, Tiki, who we both know and agree has power rivaling, if not the potential to outright surpass Naga, became that Naga in the Future Past and performed the Awakening to unlock Falchion's power. 

Also, tell me exactly where Kaga said that the Book of Naga was the ultimate weapon or if its stronger than Falchion. The FE4 game would only refer to the tome as the strongest because that's how the legends in Jugdral depict it as. And its a gamebreaker of course. 

So your argument against this is by far the weakest.

8 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Grima is the same way, without a mark carrier, he has nothing. So all in all, he just has an extra weakness then Lotpyr, the ability to die for good without losing any mark carriers.

Except that's wrong. Did you really miss the part where Naga said that Grima cannot be killed by her and only be put to sleep for 1000 years? Or the fact that Naga directly mentioned that Grima can ONLY be killed by his own power? Loptyr and Grima are not the same in regards here that you can say that Grima is bound by the same concepts of the blood pact as Loptyr. If killing the vessels was all that was needed, Naga would have mentioned that as a possibility. But she didn't, because she'd know that that wouldn't actually kill Grima, or even stop him from reviving even.

Loptyr only declares he would return, but throughout the franchise, never does. 3000 years passed in the series, and no mention yet. So its pretty much safe to say that until new information says that Loptyr managed to survive, his bloodline has ended and he is dead. 

10 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Julia's one line in the final map specifically states she feels different after touching the tome, and Heim never appeared in the game's present, so we have no reason to doubt Kaga's words were untrue. Naga worried about it, but Naga still did it. Again you're just clinging onto this for the sake of your fanon that Loptyr was weaker then Naga and Grima is the greatest character in the series.

Oh my god, you and your constant claims that I'm showing favoritism towards Grima, when Grima in Awakening was bad as well. Or that this is pure fanon? This is just getting ridiculous. In fact, I'm STILL wondering where the proof was that Grima that was revived was the present Grima and not the future Grima at all that you put into the wiki. You never actually gave me the evidence towards that. The game never referred to Grima reviving, unless there's something that I'm missing? 

And that argument no longer disproves any form of idea that Book of Naga is any way superior to Falchion. Especially because direct dialogue has now proven that Falchion is confirmed to have been the strongest weapon Naga forged. Unless you have evidence that has Kaga say, word for word, that Book of Naga is stronger than Falchion, then you win this argument. If not, then at best, Book of Naga only rivals Falchion. 

In which case, why did Naga use a tome instead of creating another Falchion? It wouldn't have been impossible if her physical condition was perfectly healthy right, and by no means was her remaining fangs somehow weakening through her degenerating health due to the brutal war against the Earth Dragons and sealing them, or the creation of another Falchion and the Shield of Seals. 

Naga was physically no longer able to produce a fang that can hold might to rival her own. This can even be supported by how Nagi in FE11 gives Marth a weaker Falchion, and is mentioned by Medeus to have revived weaker than he was. So her fangs were weaker and therefore could only produce a weaker Falchion. 

So if Naga was not able to give a fang to have sufficient power, than Naga would have to go for the alternative, give a tome that contained her power so that it could even rival Falchion. This was one because Naga disliked the notion of interfering with humans which is confirmed, but if she worried a weaker Falchion cannot stop Grima, she decided to go ahead and bend the rules and form a blood pact, thus placing her will in the tome, which would give her bloodline Crusaders the power to fight with her own might, but with the side effect of her will influencing theirs. 

In other words: Falchion is basically a sword version of Book of Naga that holds her power, but carries no risk of influencing someone. This is why Naga would favor this method, but would go for the tome only if she couldn't give a Falchion that could have enough power.

12 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

All known Shadow Dragons in Archanea and Jugdral are Earth, Gotoh even says Dark Earth Dragon.

Oh my, look at that. A Dark Earth Dragon. Gee, just put "Dark" in front of the title, and there you go.

Dark God

God = Divine

Dark Divine Dragon

Oh my, look at that. Same thing right here. And where did Gotoh say "Dark Earth Dragon"? FE3? Or was it FE12? 

Also, your argument doesn't even disprove the fact that Duma, despite being a Divine Dragon confirmed, has a darker and more sinister appearance than other Divine Dragons, and as you put in the wiki, has more "darkness" and "earth" based powers that are unusual for the tribe he belongs to. Just because he isn't directly stated to be a Shadow Dragon, there were no other dragon to call him that, was there? Only one was Mila, and she was calling him her brother or by name obviously. 

[Emperor Hardin]

6 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

And yet there are believers that say that Naga would assume Manakete form, use Falchion in the war with the Earth Dragons. Your point? 

Are you for real right now? It's ALREADY confirmed that the Falchion that Chrom and Lucina use is the SAME Falchion that Marth used, that was used by Anri, that was created by the original Naga, and the Awakening Naga directly mentioned that Falchion's full powers rivals Naga's own.

... Did you REALLY miss what I JUST said about the notion of the different Naga? Really? Alright, repeating myself then, I guess. 

Different Naga or not, this is a Naga that bends the fabric of space-time, by allowing the violation of a taboo of making people travel back in time. Exactly how is it that you can say that just because this is a different Naga that she is in fact weaker than the original Naga? Furthermore, Tiki, who we both know and agree has power rivaling, if not the potential to outright surpass Naga, became that Naga in the Future Past and performed the Awakening to unlock Falchion's power. 

Also, tell me exactly where Kaga said that the Book of Naga was the ultimate weapon or if its stronger than Falchion. The FE4 game would only refer to the tome as the strongest because that's how the legends in Jugdral depict it as. And its a gamebreaker of course. 

So your argument against this is by far the weakest.

Except that's wrong. Did you really miss the part where Naga said that Grima cannot be killed by her and only be put to sleep for 1000 years? Or the fact that Naga directly mentioned that Grima can ONLY be killed by his own power? Loptyr and Grima are not the same in regards here that you can say that Grima is bound by the same concepts of the blood pact as Loptyr. If killing the vessels was all that was needed, Naga would have mentioned that as a possibility. But she didn't, because she'd know that that wouldn't actually kill Grima, or even stop him from reviving even.

Loptyr only declares he would return, but throughout the franchise, never does. 3000 years passed in the series, and no mention yet. So its pretty much safe to say that until new information says that Loptyr managed to survive, his bloodline has ended and he is dead. 

Oh my god, you and your constant claims that I'm showing favoritism towards Grima, when Grima in Awakening was bad as well. Or that this is pure fanon? This is just getting ridiculous. In fact, I'm STILL wondering where the proof was that Grima that was revived was the present Grima and not the future Grima at all that you put into the wiki. You never actually gave me the evidence towards that. The game never referred to Grima reviving, unless there's something that I'm missing? 

And that argument no longer disproves any form of idea that Book of Naga is any way superior to Falchion. Especially because direct dialogue has now proven that Falchion is confirmed to have been the strongest weapon Naga forged. Unless you have evidence that has Kaga say, word for word, that Book of Naga is stronger than Falchion, then you win this argument. If not, then at best, Book of Naga only rivals Falchion. 

In which case, why did Naga use a tome instead of creating another Falchion? It wouldn't have been impossible if her physical condition was perfectly healthy right, and by no means was her remaining fangs somehow weakening through her degenerating health due to the brutal war against the Earth Dragons and sealing them, or the creation of another Falchion and the Shield of Seals. 

Naga was physically no longer able to produce a fang that can hold might to rival her own. This can even be supported by how Nagi in FE11 gives Marth a weaker Falchion, and is mentioned by Medeus to have revived weaker than he was. So her fangs were weaker and therefore could only produce a weaker Falchion. 

So if Naga was not able to give a fang to have sufficient power, than Naga would have to go for the alternative, give a tome that contained her power so that it could even rival Falchion. This was one because Naga disliked the notion of interfering with humans which is confirmed, but if she worried a weaker Falchion cannot stop Grima, she decided to go ahead and bend the rules and form a blood pact, thus placing her will in the tome, which would give her bloodline Crusaders the power to fight with her own might, but with the side effect of her will influencing theirs. 

In other words: Falchion is basically a sword version of Book of Naga that holds her power, but carries no risk of influencing someone. This is why Naga would favor this method, but would go for the tome only if she couldn't give a Falchion that could have enough power.

Oh my, look at that. A Dark Earth Dragon. Gee, just put "Dark" in front of the title, and there you go.

Dark God

God = Divine

Dark Divine Dragon

Oh my, look at that. Same thing right here. And where did Gotoh say "Dark Earth Dragon"? FE3? Or was it FE12? 

Also, your argument doesn't even disprove the fact that Duma, despite being a Divine Dragon confirmed, has a darker and more sinister appearance than other Divine Dragons, and as you put in the wiki, has more "darkness" and "earth" based powers that are unusual for the tribe he belongs to. Just because he isn't directly stated to be a Shadow Dragon, there were no other dragon to call him that, was there? Only one was Mila, and she was calling him her brother or by name obviously. 

An Earth Dragon taking a manakete form before the degeneration of dragons mind you, to use the Falchion to battle Naga, back when their tribes had good relations is absurd. Basically you're claim holds zero water.

The Falchion of Awakening was reforged, also unlike the original, Naga's spirit(confirmed in the art of Awakening) put their power into it. Remember the Falchion didn't become blood locked to mark holders until the First Exalt. And I have to ask are you for real with your constant ridiculous claims that directly ignore Kaga's words. 

"That was Naga's only hope to rival the Loptyr power" Forseti again stating the Book of Naga was the ultimate weapon. "Narga gave the holy light tome, which he transferred his own will and power into, to Saint Heim." Kaga stating the book of Naga held Naga's power and will, completely unlike all his descriptions of Falchion.

Note Forseti say the Book of Naga, not Falchion was Naga's only hope. You're literally ignoring canon to say Naga was far stronger then Loptyr. Forseti is a dragon with knowledge of Falchion, if he says the Book of Naga was Naga's only hope, he's right.

Your argument is the weakest because you're entirely ignoring what FE4 and the writer himself repeatedly say which multiple posters in this thread have pointed out.

Naga said Grima can only be put to sleep, exactly like Loptyr. Grima was only able to awaken without the Fire Emblem or a major mark holder, because he had to have his future self with Robin's body bail him out. Otherwise he would've stayed dead. I'll also note Loptyr doesn't need the Fire Emblem to possess a major mark holder.

How do you know Loptyr's gone, we've never heard of Jugdral since?

The game literally presents the Grima revived as the Present Grima(AKA the one in his natural dragon body) because Future Grima(AKA the one in Future Robin's body) did the ritual in Robin's place. The Art of Awakening itself says the ritual to awaken Grima can only be done by a Major mark holder.

Multiple people have shown Kaga and FE4's words on the Book of Naga and Loptyr, you repeatedly ignore all evidence that doesn't agree with your review. If Naga wanted to use the Falchion, nothing was stopping them from getting it, the Tyrfing is all but stated to be virtually identical to the Falchion, and it was weaker then the book of Naga. Again you are ignoring canon.

Again the Naga tome transferring their will into the user is literally the same description the Forseti and Loptyr tomes get.

No, in other words, Falchion was a powerful anti Dragon, but not the same as Naga putting their essence into a tome to the extent they died after the battle.

Gotoh says Dark Earth Dragon in FE3 and FE12, the sound track of all versions also has Medeus's theme as Dark Earth Dragon. There's no evidence a Dark Divine Dragon, if it exists, would look or act similar to a Shadow Dragon. Again, by all means, the ornament on the Darksphere is of a Shadow Dragon belonging to the Earth tribe.

Duma literally looks nothing like a Shadow Dragon, he lacks their Dark Breath, and he lacks their ability to halve damage. He's clearly not intended to be a Shadow Dragon.

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

While on the subject of Manaketes, I feel it's worth pointing out Medeus overpowers Camus in BSFE Chapter 4 and then proceeds to have him tortured. At this time, which happens between Prologue 4 and Chapter 1 of FE11, Medeus is not only merely partially revived but cannot take a dragon form outside of his castle. So Manaketes in human form, or at the very least Medeus himself, are capable of some degree of strength if he can overpower Camus and Gradivus

 

i also want to throw out that we should not take the ornament from the TCG as factual in any sense of the word, as it is absent entirely from the remakes, which have the orbs similar to the plain orbs of Awakening. As far as any of us should be concerned it is a black, featureless orb, which we even see Gharnef hand to Hardin and a few other instances of it. It would by far not be the only retcon FE11/12 introduced, and FE3 Book 1 even retconned a few details of FE1. 11/12 are considered de facto canon by FE13, Cipher, Tokyo Mirage Sessions, FE Heroes, and FE15 (basically everything that has come out since 2009). The Jugdral art we MIGHT be able to give a bit more credence since it's used in FE13 and Cipher, but the Archanea art is more than overruled by the remakes and shouldn't really be taken as canon.

 

Essensially, that Shadow Dragon ornament holds no amount of water as far as the remakes are concerned, which outright tossed quite a bit of Archanea art from that TCG

Edited April 30, 2017 by Hero of the Fire Emblems

[omegaxis1]

22 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

An Earth Dragon taking a manakete form before the degeneration of dragons mind you, to use the Falchion to battle Naga, back when their tribes had good relations is absurd. Basically you're claim holds zero water.

... So I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you actually don't read all the things I say and just ignore things just cause it works in your favor? Is that the reason why we have these roundabout argument? Cause you deliberately ignore the stuff I say? 

22 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

The Falchion of Awakening was reforged, also unlike the original, Naga's spirit(confirmed in the art of Awakening) put their power into it. Remember the Falchion didn't become blood locked to mark holders until the First Exalt. And I have to ask are you for real with your constant ridiculous claims that directly ignore Kaga's words. 

Again the Naga tome transferring their will into the user is literally the same description the Forseti and Loptyr tomes get.

No, in other words, Falchion was a powerful anti Dragon, but not the same as Naga putting their essence into a tome to the extent they died after the battle.

... Did I not just show you the conversation of Lucina and Owain? Okay then, once more, let me remind you.

- Owain: Heh! All right. I'll speak, and you can practice translating... Hark! Your partner fang resists the remorseless arrow of time! It is infused with the breath of gods and the passion of ages. Should a thousand years pass, it shall never know the red sleep!

- Lucina: That one is simple. Falchion's blade will never dull or rust no matter how much time passes.

- Owain: But where fang meets sinew, Falchion remains a mortal work. Even genius cannot hope to stop the turning of the great wheel! And so it is reborn with each generation; transformed, but ever the same in spirit.

- Lucina: Hmm... But parts of the sword other than the blade DO wear out over time. The guard and the pommel have been replaced over the years, changing its appearance. But it remains Falchion still.

So let's review. The BLADE (ie the actual FANG) of Falchion is ageless, will never rust, dull or anything of the like. But the rest of Falchion (ie guard, handle, hilt, etc.) are made from more common metals or such, not imbued in any magical properties that would render it ageless or indestructible. So the idea of the reforging thing being used to weaken Falchion holds not a drop of water. 

Now then, let's once more look at what Naga says in the Awakening.

- Naga: With my blessing, thou may draw forth Falchion's true might. The blade of the exalts shall again strike like the dragon's fang. Your strength will then be my equal.

So from what we've seen, Falchion's power was merely sealed after the battle with Grima and the First Exalt, during the period of the Schism. The blood pact and such was likely to give Falchion an additional power, that being to seal Grima. But prior to that, Falchion was always at full power. This is even supported by how Marth's Einherjars are all able to use all forms of Falchion, whether it was the sealed state, Parallel version, or the Exalted one, they all worked because Marth is the one that wielded Falchion in all its might 2000 years ago. 

28 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

"That was Naga's only hope to rival the Loptyr power" Forseti again stating the Book of Naga was the ultimate weapon. "Narga gave the holy light tome, which he transferred his own will and power into, to Saint Heim." Kaga stating the book of Naga held Naga's power and will, completely unlike all his descriptions of Falchion.

Note Forseti say the Book of Naga, not Falchion was Naga's only hope. You're literally ignoring canon to say Naga was far stronger then Loptyr. Forseti is a dragon with knowledge of Falchion, if he says the Book of Naga was Naga's only hope, he's right.

Need I remind you that the Archanean Falchion was made for the humans there because they were nearly driven to extinction there? Why would Naga ever dare to even bring Falchion to Jugdral, a continent that could very well be the other side of the planet? 

And of course Falchion would never be mentioned by Forseti, the same reason why Xane would never mention Loptyr. They are irrelevant to the story here as they are involved in a completely different case. 

And once again, there are no direct mention that Falchion is weaker than the Book of Naga. The game would never mention it because its not part of Jugdral's story.

33 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Multiple people have shown Kaga and FE4's words on the Book of Naga and Loptyr, you repeatedly ignore all evidence that doesn't agree with your review. If Naga wanted to use the Falchion, nothing was stopping them from getting it, the Tyrfing is all but stated to be virtually identical to the Falchion, and it was weaker then the book of Naga. Again you are ignoring canon.

... Are you REALLY trying to compare TYRFING, a weapon that never had ANYTHING to do with Naga, with Falchion? Tyrfing's resemblance to Falchion is just that, resemblance. It has NOTHING to do with the actual power the weapons hold in themselves. Seriously, the idea that you would actually try and compare Tyrfing and Falchion just cause they look similar is absolutely ridiculous. So I'm by no means ignoring ANY canon.

In fact, at this point, its YOU that's ignoring the canon, as Falchion is referred to as the strongest weapon made by Naga, and Falchion is stated to have the power to rival Naga's own. 

37 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Naga said Grima can only be put to sleep, exactly like Loptyr. Grima was only able to awaken without the Fire Emblem or a major mark holder, because he had to have his future self with Robin's body bail him out. Otherwise he would've stayed dead. I'll also note Loptyr doesn't need the Fire Emblem to possess a major mark holder.

Where did it EVER say that Loptyr was put to sleep? Neither game nor interview ever said that Loptyr merely went to sleep. 

38 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

How do you know Loptyr's gone, we've never heard of Jugdral since?

How many years has it been since Jugdral in the universe? 3000. 

Three. Thousand. Years. 

No real mention of Loptyr. Unless you go with the claim that Loptyr and Grima are one and the same, you cannot even make an assertion that Loptyr is alive. Medeus said the exact same thing, and Gotoh spoke as if Medeus won't ever revive, and he never came back either, so he's likely dead as well. So if they died in their respective series and haven't been heard from since, they are essentially dead. 

40 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

The game literally presents the Grima revived as the Present Grima(AKA the one in his natural dragon body) because Future Grima(AKA the one in Future Robin's body) did the ritual in Robin's place. The Art of Awakening itself says the ritual to awaken Grima can only be done by a Major mark holder.

Let's look back at the chapter here.

- ???: ...You were supposed to choose godhood over your pathetic band of servants. But if you'll not claim the sacrifice laid at the Dragon's Table... I will claim it in your place!

(A dark aura forms around ???)

- Avatar: What?!

- ???: Myeh heh ha ha ha! The fell dragon and I are one! And though my journey through time has diminished my power...the life force here shall renew me!

Future Robin is Grima already from the future. He makes no mention about the present Grima being revived. So I still don't get how you came to the conclusion that Future Robin only revived Present Grima when Future Robin was in fact Future Grima already? If anything, he just restores all his own powers. 

47 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Duma literally looks nothing like a Shadow Dragon, he lacks their Dark Breath, and he lacks their ability to halve damage. He's clearly not intended to be a Shadow Dragon.

And yet from what YOU mentioned in the wiki, Duma, despite being a DIVINE Dragon, has "DARKNESS" based powers, which would make sense if he was turning into a SHADOW Dragon. Furthermore, Duma doesn't even launch a breath attack. You mentioned that as well. 

You cannot say he's clearly NOT meant to if there's no real evidence to suggest the latter. For all we know, the developers are using the case of Idunn from FE6, a Divine Dragon that had her soul crushed and became a Demon Dragon. This could have been the idea they were going with. 

Furthermore, since the only known Shadow Dragons so far have been Earth Dragons, what's to say that Divine Dragons turning into Shadow Dragons don't have a different look going for them? 

Hell, look at Duma's concept art.

Clearly its showing that Duma, if he was still a Divine Dragon in their heads, was meant to indicate a Divine Dragon turning in a Dark Dragon. 

53 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Gotoh says Dark Earth Dragon in FE3 and FE12, the sound track of all versions also has Medeus's theme as Dark Earth Dragon. There's no evidence a Dark Divine Dragon, if it exists, would look or act similar to a Shadow Dragon. Again, by all means, the ornament on the Darksphere is of a Shadow Dragon belonging to the Earth tribe.

I'd like to say what Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

"i also want to throw out that we should not take the ornament from the TCG as factual in any sense of the word, as it is absent entirely from the remakes, which have the orbs similar to the plain orbs of Awakening. As far as any of us should be concerned it is a black, featureless orb, which we even see Gharnef hand to Hardin and a few other instances of it. It would by far not be the only retcon FE11/12 introduced, and FE3 Book 1 even retconned a few details of FE1"

So by all means, the Darksphere's artwork in a TCG should not even be acknowledged as even legit, when all artworks for it in games have shown that it is a sphere with no attachments. 

36 minutes ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

While on the subject of Manaketes, I feel it's worth pointing out Medeus overpowers Camus in BSFE Chapter 4 and then proceeds to have him tortured. At this time, which happens between Prologue 4 and Chapter 1 of FE11, Medeus is not only merely partially revived but cannot take a dragon form outside of his castle. So Manaketes in human form, or at the very least Medeus himself, are capable of some degree of strength if he can overpower Camus and Gradivus

Actually, remember that in that part, Camus had JUST defeated a Manakete and an entire battalion. He was very likely exhausted and by then had been disarmed of his weapons. 

[RJWalker]

The tome of Naga has been stated to the most powerful weapon by the series creator himself. Why keep denying this? When the game says that the tome is the only hope of doing something, then it is saying it is the only hope. No ifs and buts or getting around that.

[omegaxis1]

4 hours ago, Ranger Jack Walker said:

The tome of Naga has been stated to the most powerful weapon by the series creator himself. Why keep denying this? When the game says that the tome is the only hope of doing something, then it is saying it is the only hope. No ifs and buts or getting around that.

If the tome is their only hope, its clearly obvious that Falchion was never brought to Jugdral. We all know that Naga never brought Falchion with her. Forseti says that the Book of Naga is their ONLY hope because there was no Falchion around to help them. The creator never said that Book of Naga was stronger than Falchion.

[RJWalker]

Uh, when something is stated to be the only hope, then it means nothing else will work. It doesn't mean 'this other thing totally would have worked because I say so but wasn't considered at all.'

If the Naga tome was their only hope, then it means literally nothing else would have worked. The Falchion would not have worked. It's not like the Falchion had already been sealed so it wasn't an option or something as that would happen later. 

The creator says the Naga tome is the most powerful and also says it was the only hope for defeating Loptyr. No getting around that.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Ranger Jack Walker said:

Uh, when something is stated to be the only hope, then it means nothing else will work. It doesn't mean 'this other thing totally would have worked because I say so but wasn't considered at all.'

If the Naga tome was their only hope, then it means literally nothing else would have worked. The Falchion would not have worked. It's not like the Falchion had already been sealed so it wasn't an option or something as that would happen later. 

The creator says the Naga tome is the most powerful and also says it was the only hope for defeating Loptyr. No getting around that.

You're forgetting that Falchion was made for the humans in Archanea. She wouldn't just remove it from there in the risks that something could happen, as otherwise, the humans of Archanea are rendered helpless. Also, the term "only hope" can literally mean a lot of different things depending on the context. The very scenario I even mentioned that creating a tome that holds her powers was the only hope they have to defeat Loptyr since they didn't have Falchion on them easily fits that bill.

In what context does it say that Book of Naga is the strongest weapon? Overall or in regards to the Jugdral weapons? Please show me.

The ONLY time that the creator referred to Falchion alongside the Jugdral weapons is when explained how they are similar in the case that they have dragonstones inside them. But beyond that, Falchion and Book of Naga are never referred to in the same context of each other.

Furthermore, Awakening, already part of the canon from this point on, already refers to Falchion's full power to having the might of Naga herself in it, and Mila's words about Falchion being the greatest weapon, just proves my point further. You cannot even argue against that because this is not even a retcon, since there was never any mention that Falchion and Book of Naga are stronger or weaker than each other. If Falchion's full power refers to being equal to Naga's own, and the Book of Naga holds Naga's power, then at best, the two weapons actually rival each other. 

[Emperor Hardin]

On 4/30/2017 at 5:18 PM, omegaxis1 said:

... So I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you actually don't read all the things I say and just ignore things just cause it works in your favor? Is that the reason why we have these roundabout argument? Cause you deliberately ignore the stuff I say? 

... Did I not just show you the conversation of Lucina and Owain? Okay then, once more, let me remind you.

- Owain: Heh! All right. I'll speak, and you can practice translating... Hark! Your partner fang resists the remorseless arrow of time! It is infused with the breath of gods and the passion of ages. Should a thousand years pass, it shall never know the red sleep!

- Lucina: That one is simple. Falchion's blade will never dull or rust no matter how much time passes.

- Owain: But where fang meets sinew, Falchion remains a mortal work. Even genius cannot hope to stop the turning of the great wheel! And so it is reborn with each generation; transformed, but ever the same in spirit.

- Lucina: Hmm... But parts of the sword other than the blade DO wear out over time. The guard and the pommel have been replaced over the years, changing its appearance. But it remains Falchion still.

So let's review. The BLADE (ie the actual FANG) of Falchion is ageless, will never rust, dull or anything of the like. But the rest of Falchion (ie guard, handle, hilt, etc.) are made from more common metals or such, not imbued in any magical properties that would render it ageless or indestructible. So the idea of the reforging thing being used to weaken Falchion holds not a drop of water. 

Now then, let's once more look at what Naga says in the Awakening.

- Naga: With my blessing, thou may draw forth Falchion's true might. The blade of the exalts shall again strike like the dragon's fang. Your strength will then be my equal.

So from what we've seen, Falchion's power was merely sealed after the battle with Grima and the First Exalt, during the period of the Schism. The blood pact and such was likely to give Falchion an additional power, that being to seal Grima. But prior to that, Falchion was always at full power. This is even supported by how Marth's Einherjars are all able to use all forms of Falchion, whether it was the sealed state, Parallel version, or the Exalted one, they all worked because Marth is the one that wielded Falchion in all its might 2000 years ago. 

Need I remind you that the Archanean Falchion was made for the humans there because they were nearly driven to extinction there? Why would Naga ever dare to even bring Falchion to Jugdral, a continent that could very well be the other side of the planet? 

And of course Falchion would never be mentioned by Forseti, the same reason why Xane would never mention Loptyr. They are irrelevant to the story here as they are involved in a completely different case. 

And once again, there are no direct mention that Falchion is weaker than the Book of Naga. The game would never mention it because its not part of Jugdral's story.

... Are you REALLY trying to compare TYRFING, a weapon that never had ANYTHING to do with Naga, with Falchion? Tyrfing's resemblance to Falchion is just that, resemblance. It has NOTHING to do with the actual power the weapons hold in themselves. Seriously, the idea that you would actually try and compare Tyrfing and Falchion just cause they look similar is absolutely ridiculous. So I'm by no means ignoring ANY canon.

In fact, at this point, its YOU that's ignoring the canon, as Falchion is referred to as the strongest weapon made by Naga, and Falchion is stated to have the power to rival Naga's own. 

Where did it EVER say that Loptyr was put to sleep? Neither game nor interview ever said that Loptyr merely went to sleep. 

How many years has it been since Jugdral in the universe? 3000. 

Three. Thousand. Years. 

No real mention of Loptyr. Unless you go with the claim that Loptyr and Grima are one and the same, you cannot even make an assertion that Loptyr is alive. Medeus said the exact same thing, and Gotoh spoke as if Medeus won't ever revive, and he never came back either, so he's likely dead as well. So if they died in their respective series and haven't been heard from since, they are essentially dead. 

Let's look back at the chapter here.

- ???: ...You were supposed to choose godhood over your pathetic band of servants. But if you'll not claim the sacrifice laid at the Dragon's Table... I will claim it in your place!

(A dark aura forms around ???)

- Avatar: What?!

- ???: Myeh heh ha ha ha! The fell dragon and I are one! And though my journey through time has diminished my power...the life force here shall renew me!

Future Robin is Grima already from the future. He makes no mention about the present Grima being revived. So I still don't get how you came to the conclusion that Future Robin only revived Present Grima when Future Robin was in fact Future Grima already? If anything, he just restores all his own powers. 

And yet from what YOU mentioned in the wiki, Duma, despite being a DIVINE Dragon, has "DARKNESS" based powers, which would make sense if he was turning into a SHADOW Dragon. Furthermore, Duma doesn't even launch a breath attack. You mentioned that as well. 

You cannot say he's clearly NOT meant to if there's no real evidence to suggest the latter. For all we know, the developers are using the case of Idunn from FE6, a Divine Dragon that had her soul crushed and became a Demon Dragon. This could have been the idea they were going with. 

Furthermore, since the only known Shadow Dragons so far have been Earth Dragons, what's to say that Divine Dragons turning into Shadow Dragons don't have a different look going for them? 

Hell, look at Duma's concept art.

Clearly its showing that Duma, if he was still a Divine Dragon in their heads, was meant to indicate a Divine Dragon turning in a Dark Dragon. 

I'd like to say what Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

"i also want to throw out that we should not take the ornament from the TCG as factual in any sense of the word, as it is absent entirely from the remakes, which have the orbs similar to the plain orbs of Awakening. As far as any of us should be concerned it is a black, featureless orb, which we even see Gharnef hand to Hardin and a few other instances of it. It would by far not be the only retcon FE11/12 introduced, and FE3 Book 1 even retconned a few details of FE1"

So by all means, the Darksphere's artwork in a TCG should not even be acknowledged as even legit, when all artworks for it in games have shown that it is a sphere with no attachments. 

Actually, remember that in that part, Camus had JUST defeated a Manakete and an entire battalion. He was very likely exhausted and by then had been disarmed of his weapons. 

No you are ignoring everything to continue pushing your absurd ideas. You claim Naga wouldn’t give Earth Dragons the Falchion because they’d take Manakete form to fight the Divine dragons despite their being no conflict at the time and your contradictory claim that Naga wouldn’t take manakete form to fight with the Falchion.

That still has no proof that the original Falchion was anywhere near the power of the Naga tome. Remember, the original Naga put more power into the tome, which literally possessed the user, which again you ignore.

Nothing ist stopping NAga from making another Falchion as in Echoes.

Plenty of irrelevant things are mentioned in Fire Emblem, A Fire Emblem is still mentioned in FE4 despite it being irrelevant to the main plot. If the book of Naga wasn't their only hope, Forseti would have mentioned it, Kaga would've mentioned it. 

You're literally just clinging to this stupid idea for the sake of shitting on FE4.

Tyrfing was an empowered Dragon Fang just like Falchion, Kaga even compares the two. Its also described as a Blade Of Light, directly recalling Falchion's description.

Citation needed for Falchion being the strongest weapon ever, Forseti and the writer himself describes the book of Naga as their only hope, despite the Falchion existing.  Again, you are blatantly ignoring canon which multiple people have pointed out.

We've never gone back to Jugdral since Genealogy of the Holy War, so you can't say he never returned. Remember Sais exists.

Loptyr was described as put to sleep after his defeat by Naga, again same as Grima.

Future Grima revived Present Grima only via his use of Future Robin's body to act as conduit, hence killing Future Robin's body kills Present Grima as well. Present Grima literally only was able to revive because Future Grima bailed him out.

Shadow dragons are purple/black. Shadow Dragons have antenna, horns, on their nose finned ears,  Duma is a decaying Green dragoon with not a single one of those triats. Shadow dragons always use Shadow Breath and  halve all damage received, even Loptyr's tome does the same. Duma fights entirely differently. Duma being a Shadow Dragon is complete nonsense in every way.

Again, they are described as Dark Earth Dragons. 

The orb are just palette swaps to save time/effort, its not any lore retcon, you're making up facts to justify your bizarre ideas.

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

Ok, the orbs are actually shown in Shadow Dragon in artwork and cg stills as being completely blank Orbs. Assuming the TCG artwork was ever even canon to start with (which is doubtful), it is absolutely retconning the TCG.

I potentially agree with the points on Falchion and the Book of Naga, that seems to be the case is that Naga has much more power due to actually channeling Naga herself

Edited May 16, 2017 by Hero of the Fire Emblems

[omegaxis1]

2 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

No you are ignoring everything to continue pushing your absurd ideas. You claim Naga wouldn’t give Earth Dragons the Falchion because they’d take Manakete form to fight the Divine dragons despite their being no conflict at the time and your contradictory claim that Naga wouldn’t take manakete form to fight with the Falchion.

That still has no proof that the original Falchion was anywhere near the power of the Naga tome. Remember, the original Naga put more power into the tome, which literally possessed the user, which again you ignore.

Nothing ist stopping NAga from making another Falchion as in Echoes.

Plenty of irrelevant things are mentioned in Fire Emblem, A Fire Emblem is still mentioned in FE4 despite it being irrelevant to the main plot. If the book of Naga wasn't their only hope, Forseti would have mentioned it, Kaga would've mentioned it. 

You're literally just clinging to this stupid idea for the sake of shitting on FE4.

Tyrfing was an empowered Dragon Fang just like Falchion, Kaga even compares the two. Its also described as a Blade Of Light, directly recalling Falchion's description.

Citation needed for Falchion being the strongest weapon ever, Forseti and the writer himself describes the book of Naga as their only hope, despite the Falchion existing.  Again, you are blatantly ignoring canon which multiple people have pointed out.

We've never gone back to Jugdral since Genealogy of the Holy War, so you can't say he never returned. Remember Sais exists.

Loptyr was described as put to sleep after his defeat by Naga, again same as Grima.

Future Grima revived Present Grima only via his use of Future Robin's body to act as conduit, hence killing Future Robin's body kills Present Grima as well. Present Grima literally only was able to revive because Future Grima bailed him out.

Shadow dragons are purple/black. Shadow Dragons have antenna, horns, on their nose finned ears,  Duma is a decaying Green dragoon with not a single one of those triats. Shadow dragons always use Shadow Breath and  halve all damage received, even Loptyr's tome does the same. Duma fights entirely differently. Duma being a Shadow Dragon is complete nonsense in every way.

Again, they are described as Dark Earth Dragons. 

The orb are just palette swaps to save time/effort, its not any lore retcon, you're making up facts to justify your bizarre ideas.

Wow you are so late into this. I even forgot about this thread after a while. But okay, let's kick things off yet again. *cracks fingers and clears throat*

I honestly see no point in continuing the absurd discussion about Naga giving a Falchion to the Divine/Earth Dragon because there is zero reason in there. Duma's a Divine Dragon, end of story. It's there, its done, get over it. With this, Divine Dragons can hold multi-elemental magical powers. Deal with it. Its canon now. Your arguments against the matter no longer holds any water. 

Naga made one Falchion way before the Dragon War started. It isn't known when the second Falchion was made, but it was most certainly made after the war with the Earth Dragons ended at the very least. Maybe it could have been forged during the war, I dunno, no confirmation. HOWEVER, the point is that Falchion is stated to have been made for the humans in Archanea. Naga would not EVER remove the weapon and go all the way to Jugdral. Jugdral is likely on the other side of the planet, and if something went wrong, Archanea lost its weapon. The very fact that Naga seems to be the cautious type given how Echoes shows her giving Duma the fang so that humans could use it against him, would have killed Tiki in fear of her powers on the humans, and even creating the Shield of Seals for the Earth Dragons, she would not take unnecessary risks like removing a weapon from one continent and moving to another with it. 

In that regard, Naga no longer holds Falchion and thus has to take on Loptyr without it. Meaning her only hope is to make a weapon that can still hold all her power. And no, there was no need to mention Falchion because that's another story. Forseti didn't even explain to Seliph about the Dragon War with the Earth Dragons. He was only explain the essentials that mattered in this point. Falchion's existence served no purpose. And once again, Kaga never made ANY indication that Book of Naga was superior to Falchion. It's superior to the other Jugdral weapons, but that's as far as it goes. 

And I already explained the difference between Falchion and Book of Naga. Falchion was the SAFE way for humans to use the full extent of her might without corrupting the user or her will taking over. The Book of Naga was the unsafe way, but at that point, she had little choice. If she could not forge another Falchion, then she had to go a different method. 

Are you serious? Tyrfing was made by a different dragon. Just because it LOOKS like Falchion does NOT mean it holds equal power at all. It was made by another dragon and Falchion was made by Naga the most powerful Dragon. Just because the two look alike has ZERO relevance to their overall power, which we know that Falchion outstrips Tyrfing in. It's already CONFIRMED, especially through Awakening that Falchion holds equal power to Naga herself. You cannot argue against the "different Naga" notion because Awakening's Naga is still godly powerful. 

The fact you're still insisting on this stupid idea that Falchion is inferior to Book of Naga despite how we already have direct mention throughout the games canon that Falchion is the mightiest weapon in the world that Naga's from because it's made to hold all of Naga's power. Book of Naga at best only RIVALS Falchion. 

And palette swap? Really? Its a trading card game. Its done just to make the picture look more pretty. You cannot even claim that its canon to the game because its NOT IN THE GAME. Not Awakening and not Mystery. It's a sphere. There's no decoration on it. Its purely aesthetics for a card game.

And what's to say that Duma wasn't in the midsts of turning into one? Again, he was deforming or transforming and growing more dark. Dragons can easily be corrupted if we've seen proof already. Duma was not fully turning into one because Duma likely still held onto some form of love and such. Medeus and Loptyr held nothing but hate and contempt for humans. Duma might have been extreme, but he was not overcome with pure hatred like the others. For all we know, that's something that was keeping him fro fully turning into one. But regardless, saying that Shadow Dragons are strictly limited to Earth Dragons despite how Duma is already a corrupted Divine Dragon from what we've seen, its already indication that Shadow Dragons are likely not just limited to Earth Dragons.

[Emperor Hardin]

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Wow you are so late into this. I even forgot about this thread after a while. But okay, let's kick things off yet again. *cracks fingers and clears throat*

I honestly see no point in continuing the absurd discussion about Naga giving a Falchion to the Divine/Earth Dragon because there is zero reason in there. Duma's a Divine Dragon, end of story. It's there, its done, get over it. With this, Divine Dragons can hold multi-elemental magical powers. Deal with it. Its canon now. Your arguments against the matter no longer holds any water. 

Naga made one Falchion way before the Dragon War started. It isn't known when the second Falchion was made, but it was most certainly made after the war with the Earth Dragons ended at the very least. Maybe it could have been forged during the war, I dunno, no confirmation. HOWEVER, the point is that Falchion is stated to have been made for the humans in Archanea. Naga would not EVER remove the weapon and go all the way to Jugdral. Jugdral is likely on the other side of the planet, and if something went wrong, Archanea lost its weapon. The very fact that Naga seems to be the cautious type given how Echoes shows her giving Duma the fang so that humans could use it against him, would have killed Tiki in fear of her powers on the humans, and even creating the Shield of Seals for the Earth Dragons, she would not take unnecessary risks like removing a weapon from one continent and moving to another with it. 

In that regard, Naga no longer holds Falchion and thus has to take on Loptyr without it. Meaning her only hope is to make a weapon that can still hold all her power. And no, there was no need to mention Falchion because that's another story. Forseti didn't even explain to Seliph about the Dragon War with the Earth Dragons. He was only explain the essentials that mattered in this point. Falchion's existence served no purpose. And once again, Kaga never made ANY indication that Book of Naga was superior to Falchion. It's superior to the other Jugdral weapons, but that's as far as it goes. 

And I already explained the difference between Falchion and Book of Naga. Falchion was the SAFE way for humans to use the full extent of her might without corrupting the user or her will taking over. The Book of Naga was the unsafe way, but at that point, she had little choice. If she could not forge another Falchion, then she had to go a different method. 

Are you serious? Tyrfing was made by a different dragon. Just because it LOOKS like Falchion does NOT mean it holds equal power at all. It was made by another dragon and Falchion was made by Naga the most powerful Dragon. Just because the two look alike has ZERO relevance to their overall power, which we know that Falchion outstrips Tyrfing in. It's already CONFIRMED, especially through Awakening that Falchion holds equal power to Naga herself. You cannot argue against the "different Naga" notion because Awakening's Naga is still godly powerful. 

The fact you're still insisting on this stupid idea that Falchion is inferior to Book of Naga despite how we already have direct mention throughout the games canon that Falchion is the mightiest weapon in the world that Naga's from because it's made to hold all of Naga's power. Book of Naga at best only RIVALS Falchion. 

And palette swap? Really? Its a trading card game. Its done just to make the picture look more pretty. You cannot even claim that its canon to the game because its NOT IN THE GAME. Not Awakening and not Mystery. It's a sphere. There's no decoration on it. Its purely aesthetics for a card game.

And what's to say that Duma wasn't in the midsts of turning into one? Again, he was deforming or transforming and growing more dark. Dragons can easily be corrupted if we've seen proof already. Duma was not fully turning into one because Duma likely still held onto some form of love and such. Medeus and Loptyr held nothing but hate and contempt for humans. Duma might have been extreme, but he was not overcome with pure hatred like the others. For all we know, that's something that was keeping him fro fully turning into one. But regardless, saying that Shadow Dragons are strictly limited to Earth Dragons despite how Duma is already a corrupted Divine Dragon from what we've seen, its already indication that Shadow Dragons are likely not just limited to Earth Dragons.

Not everyone has tons of free time.

You are still claiming that Naga would withhold a Falchion from Earth Dragons because they'd use it against the Divine Dragons via taking manakete form to fight with Falchion, which is again absurd.

You have zero proof of Divine Dragons being able to harness other elements like the other tribes as opposed to using magic. Your claims continue to hold no proof.

Actually Duma and Mila left BEFORE any degeneration or the war with the Earth Tribe, Naga gave them the Falchion before all that. So your info is completely wrong. 

Falchion was made to slay dragons and entrusted to humanity later on, there's nothing stopping Naga from using it in Manakete form. Nor is there anything stopping Naga from making another or taking it to Jugdral. Again you are ignoring the canon itself.

The reason why the Naga tome was worrying was because so much of Naga’s power was put into it. It, and not Falchion, is described as having Naga’s power in it. Hence it possessing the user. 

That was Naga's only hope to rival the Loptyr power.

Straight from the game. Again, book Of Naga is described as Naga's only hope against Loptyr, you're ignoring canon for the sake of your silly ideas.

Tyrfing was made by a different Divine Dragon but using the same methods as creating Falchion.

 

The Falchion in Awakening is a different beast altogether, having been altered in the years since.  You're the one insisting on the idiotic ideas that the Book of Naga was weak, Loptyr was no challenge, and Grima is made from a degenerated Earth Dragon despite all of them being sealed.

 

Speaking of it, all Naga says is "With my blessing, thou may draw forth Falchion's true might. " There's zero mention of it being the ultimate weapon as you keep claiming.

 

Designs change all the time, even the Falchion changed for no reason in the 3DS games. In the DS Games, all the spheres are palette swaps, differing only in the color used. The official artwork depicting the Shadowsphere with a Shadow Dragon ornament, its powers, and relation with the Lightsphere all show its intended to reflect Shadow Earth Dragons. Again the Card game is directly related to the game. Its clear the Shadowsphere is not from a Divine Dragon's power.

 

Duma is a decaying cyclops, Shadow Dragons are lively with two eyes. He literally looks nothing at all like a Shadow dragon in any shape or form. Claiming Duma is a Shadow Dragon or that there's proof that Non Earth Dragons can be Shadow Earth Dragons is complete and utter nonsense. 

 

Edited May 16, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[omegaxis1]

5 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Not everyone has tons of free time.

You are still claiming that Naga would withhold a Falchion from Earth Dragons because they'd use it against the Divine Dragons via taking manakete form to fight with Falchion, which is again absurd.

You have zero proof of Divine Dragons being able to harness other elements like the other tribes as opposed to using magic. Your claims continue to hold no proof.

Actually Duma and Mila left BEFORE any degeneration or the war with the Earth Tribe, Naga gave them the Falchion before all that. So your info is completely wrong. 

Falchion was made to slay dragons and entrusted to humanity later on, there's nothing stopping Naga from using it in Manakete form. Nor is there anything stopping Naga from making another or taking it to Jugdral. Again you are ignoring the canon itself.

The reason why the Naga tome was worrying was because so much of Naga’s power was put into it. It, and not Falchion, is described as having Naga’s power in it. Hence it possessing the user. 

That was Naga's only hope to rival the Loptyr power.

Straight from the game. Again, book Of Naga is described as Naga's only hope against Loptyr, you're ignoring canon for the sake of your silly ideas.

Tyrfing was made by a different Divine Dragon but using the same methods as creating Falchion.

 

The Falchion in Awakening is a different beast altogether, having been altered in the years since.  You're the one insisting on the idiotic ideas that the Book of Naga was weak, Loptyr was no challenge, and Grima is made from a degenerated Earth Dragon despite all of them being sealed.

 

Speaking of it, all Naga says is "With my blessing, thou may draw forth Falchion's true might. " There's zero mention of it being the ultimate weapon as you keep claiming.

 

Designs change all the time, even the Falchion changed for no reason in the 3DS games. In the DS Games, all the spheres are palette swaps, differing only in the color used. The official artwork depicting the Shadowsphere with a Shadow Dragon ornament, its powers, and relation with the Lightsphere all show its intended to reflect Shadow Earth Dragons. Again the Card game is directly related to the game. Its clear the Shadowsphere is not from a Divine Dragon's power.

 

Duma is a decaying cyclops, Shadow Dragons are lively with two eyes. He literally looks nothing at all like a Shadow dragon in any shape or form. Claiming Duma is a Shadow Dragon or that there's proof that Non Earth Dragons can be Shadow Earth Dragons is complete and utter nonsense. 

 

Zero proof that Divine Dragons can harness other elements? Duma, a Divine Dragon is using darkness based elements and the Megaquake, an earth element. That's ALL the proof I need. It's there. It's done. And neither do I, but I learn to multitask. I'm not claiming ANYTHING at this point. There's just no point in arguing against how things would work if Duma was an Earth Dragon or a Divine Dragon. But canon-wise, Duma is a Divine Dragon. Stop ignoring the fact right there.

I JUST said that already. The first Falchion was made BEFORE the war. The second one was likely made during or after the war at the very least. There's no proof when the second one was made, but based on conversation with Xane, it had to have been made around those times.

Actually, YES. There is. I JUST explained that Naga is the cautious type, and the risks of taking Falchion already exist. But my assertion is that she didn't use Falchion because she no longer had the strength through her physical body to create one, so instead opted to use the magic tome to rival her power, which Falchion is the same. Had she tried to make Falchion when she was physically weaker, her fangs would therefore be weaker, and it'd be like the Falchion that Nagi gives to Marth in Shadow Dragon, much weaker than the original because it's made by Nagi who doesn't hold all of the original Naga's power at the time. And since she can't give her fang that can hold her might to the humans, instead she gives her power, and while worrying, was their only hope of besting Loptyr. 

Now look who's ignoring canon. Hello pot, I'm kettle, and I'd like to say you're black. 

Do you want me to show you the support between Lucina and Owain again? It doesn't matter if the appearance is different after 2000 years. Falchion remains Falchion. Its power is sealed after the new rite has been performed to try and seal Grima, but through the Awakening, the true might, and the user's "strength will then be (Naga's) equal". If Falchion's full strength is already confirmed here to be Naga's equal in power, then there's ZERO reason to argue that Book of Naga is stronger, because THAT would also be Naga's equal. Hence why I said repeatedly, at best, the two weapons are EQUAL!

So you actually cannot argue this any further. Falchion and Book of Naga can only at best rival one another. But after 2000 years, Falchion holds strong because it can get all its power back, whereas Book of Naga will continue to weaken over time. 

Oh my god, you are arguing over something ridiculous right now. Falchion's change in appearance is EXPLAINED! The gemstones appearance was NEVER brought to mention. And AGAIN, you are arguing over the appearance of a TRADING CARD GAME PICTURE with an IN GAME PICTURE. There is ZERO canon connection between the two. You cannot assert that a TCG pic holds ANY form of relevance to the actual design that the game shows us. And saying that its the same reasoning as Falchion's change has ZERO evidence to back it up.

How is it utter nonsense? Duma is a DIVINE DRAGON. And as you love to always point out, Duma's powers resemble nothing of said Divine Dragons. Why? Because his power is now shifting away at best to a darker version. And for all we know, Shadow Dragons might vary in appearance depending on the race that turns/turning into one. Duma might be the appearance of the first ever Divine Dragon turned Shadow. 

[VincentASM]

Eh, I don't really feel like stepping in, but I was suddenly reminded that this isn't the first time Divine Dragons have been corrupted. In Binding Blade, they made Idoun who was originally a Divine Dragon into a Demon/Mage Dragon.

Which I still don't really understand, but nevermind.

Anyway, I do think Duma is more of a Necrodragon than anything at this stage. Don't forget, Shadow Dragons are a true form. However Duma in this state is in very bad shape and rotting at the seams.

[Mysterique Sign]

Doesn't the game specifically mention that Duma's going mad?

[VincentASM]

1 hour ago, Mysterique Sign said:

Doesn't the game specifically mention that Duma's going mad?

Yup, it's a major plot point. I am not 100% sure, but I think even Mila is starting to lose her sanity.

The main reason Rudolf instigated the war is because the people of Valentia have been too reliant on the dragons who are on the brink of going bonkers.