Origins of Mila and Duma (unmarked Endgame spoilers)

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

3 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Yeah, but for that one:

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That's because she went and tried to research witches. Remember that Dragons possess and utilize vast knowledge of magic that humans can only dream of. Sonya was a human trying to research a way to revive witches that have lost their souls. It's possible that Naga, being the supreme dragon, had knowledge of magic to counter that already for all we know and it was implanted into Falchion.

 

The Kingsfang was still referred to that by Mila when she saw Falchion in the cutscene. So that doesn't change that it was still a nickname in the first line. And that second line could actually indicate how Mila was describing the Kingsfang, how it was named and fashioned, but it doesn't completely indicate that it actually happened after Duma had gotten it. Again, since Naga intended Falchion to be used by humans against Duma and Mila so that humans had a chance, it would make sense that she had already fashioned it into a sword already, rather than leave it as a fang. 

Or it could very well be the other way round and Falchion is a nickname for the Kingsfang after it was made a sword. Like the second line somewhat says point blank.

 

it doesn't indicate it happened before duma got it either. Naga very well could have intended humans to use the Fang; perhaps she even gave Duma the idea/instruction to do this, and later did it herself when she needed to.

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

Or it could very well be the other way round and Falchion is a nickname for the Kingsfang after it was made a sword. Like the second line somewhat says point blank.

 

it doesn't indicate it happened before duma got it either. Naga very well could have intended humans to use the Fang; perhaps she even gave Duma the idea/instruction to do this, and later did it herself when she needed to.

So many possibilities, so little information. The biggest problem is that we never, ever EVER see the original Naga. From this point on, the original Naga is a girl. But the issue is that Awakening Naga is the only Naga we physically see and interact with. It's not even to understand the personality or power, but seeing the original Naga would open up vital information, regarding the Dragon War, Falchion, Shield of Seals, etc. 

Before Awakening, almost every form of information regarding Naga are second hand. Forseti, Mila, Xane, they all talk about Naga, her powers, and situations with her, but never once do we ever hear from Naga herself. 

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

So many possibilities, so little information. The biggest problem is that we never, ever EVER see the original Naga. From this point on, the original Naga is a girl. But the issue is that Awakening Naga is the only Naga we physically see and interact with. It's not even to understand the personality or power, but seeing the original Naga would open up vital information, regarding the Dragon War, Falchion, Shield of Seals, etc. 

Before Awakening, almost every form of information regarding Naga are second hand. Forseti, Mila, Xane, they all talk about Naga, her powers, and situations with her, but never once do we ever hear from Naga herself. 

Nagi: Damn, that's cold. I have amnesia and I misremembered my name but that's pretty cold dude. I'm literally listed as Naga in my internal data

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

Nagi: Damn, that's cold. I have amnesia and I misremembered my name but that's pretty cold dude. I'm literally listed as Naga in my internal data

Nagi's a reincarnation, not the same thing. And she barely says anything. In fact, she sounds so distant that she seems like she's mentally not with everyone else. 

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

3 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Nagi's a reincarnation, not the same thing. And she barely says anything. In fact, she sounds so distant that she seems like she's mentally not with everyone else. 

It's all but stated she has severe amnesia. Medeus says she's Naga resurrected and it's implied "Nagi" is her misremembering her own name.

 

So, quite ironically, somewhat like Julia but a lot worse.

FE11/12 Nagi, Awakening Naga, and FE4 Naga are all pretty much the same person in their respective art styles

Edited June 1, 2017 by Hero of the Fire Emblems

[Party Moth]

It just struck me that since Vestaria Saga has been released, we have Kaga's email (and have contacted him about translating it). Has anyone considered possibly emailing him about what Doma and Mila were supposed to be? Might be a touchy subject still after all these years, but up until a year or two ago the idea of emailing him at all has been pretty alien.

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

2 minutes ago, Party Moth said:

It just struck me that since Vestaria Saga has been released, we have Kaga's email (and have contacted him about translating it). Has anyone considered possibly emailing him about what Doma and Mila were supposed to be? Might be a touchy subject still after all these years, but up until a year or two ago the idea of emailing him at all has been pretty alien.

It'd be pretty funny to get an answer like Duma was definitely a dragon but Mila was intended to be a human shaped goddess, or something no one expects like that

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

It's all but stated she has severe amnesia. Medeus says she's Naga resurrected and it's implied "Nagi" is her misremembering her own name.

So, quite ironically, somewhat like Julia but a lot worse.

No, Xane said that Naga died. Being a Divine Dragon that was with Naga and the war, Xane would know if she was still alive. And her title says that she's the incarnation of the Divine Dragon King. Also, Medeus didn't say that she's Naga. He only implies that its Naga and that she has returned weaker than he had. 

Also, based on every amnesia in Fire Emblem, unless they forget their name altogether, they wouldn't misremember their name. 

[omegaxis1]

6 minutes ago, Party Moth said:

It just struck me that since Vestaria Saga has been released, we have Kaga's email (and have contacted him about translating it). Has anyone considered possibly emailing him about what Doma and Mila were supposed to be? Might be a touchy subject still after all these years, but up until a year or two ago the idea of emailing him at all has been pretty alien.

While you're at it, try asking if Falchion and Book of Naga are equals or if one was meant or is stronger than the other? Oh, and if Naga was by any means injured or had her life force weakened. That's been the entire argument with me and Hardin, since he thinks I'm insulting FE4 ad saying that Loptyr is weak simply because I said that Naga was physically weakened, despite how Naga herself never participated in the fight with Loptyr directly.

Edited June 1, 2017 by omegaxis1

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

No, Xane said that Naga died. Being a Divine Dragon that was with Naga and the war, Xane would know if she was still alive. And her title says that she's the incarnation of the Divine Dragon King. Also, Medeus didn't say that she's Naga. He only implies that its Naga and that she has returned weaker than he had. 

Also, based on every amnesia in Fire Emblem, unless they forget their name altogether, they wouldn't misremember their name. 

Where did I ever say she's still alive?

 

Resurrected implies they were brought back from the dead, which is exactly what I said happened. I never said Naga survived without coming back from the dead, which is what seems to have happened.

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

Where did I ever say she's still alive?

Resurrected implies they were brought back from the dead, which is exactly what I said happened. I never said Naga survived without coming back from the dead, which is what seems to have happened.

Well, her being resurrected constitutes being still alive technically, and saying she has amnesia is also saying that she's still alive. Reincarnation is the process where you already forget your past memories as you enter your new life, so it isn't really amnesia. 

Also, Nagi being a factor makes things even more confusing. Does that mean that Naga in Awakening is Nagi? Or someone else?

[SoulWeaver]

57 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

based on every amnesia in Fire Emblem, unless they forget their name altogether, they wouldn't misremember their name. 

 

56 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Does that mean that Naga in Awakening is Nagi? Or someone else?

Just to jump in here, but it's also possible that there could be some sort of special dragon language involved. Perhaps Naga isn't so much a name as it is a title - Tiki does state she must become the new Naga in The Future Past 3, and this would also retroactively explain the gender-neutral pronouns since a Divine Dragon of either gender could in theory become Naga. Nagi, meanwhile, could very well be a derivative of the title of Naga, so it could be that it wasn't a misremembered name so much as either some sort of title meaning ex-Naga or perhaps her name before taking up the title.

 

[omegaxis1]

20 minutes ago, SoulWeaver said:

Just to jump in here, but it's also possible that there could be some sort of special dragon language involved. Perhaps Naga isn't so much a name as it is a title - Tiki does state she must become the new Naga in The Future Past 3, and this would also retroactively explain the gender-neutral pronouns since a Divine Dragon of either gender could in theory become Naga. Nagi, meanwhile, could very well be a derivative of the title of Naga, so it could be that it wasn't a misremembered name so much as either some sort of title meaning ex-Naga or perhaps her name before taking up the title.

Yeah, the case of Naga being a title was how people worked with the case of Naga's gender. But Nagi's existence as actually strange. The thing being is that Naga died and if she reincarnated into Nagi, that'd mean that she'd technically would have had to be born. But as we've seen, before Nowi, Tiki was the last Divine Dragon to be born. Plus, Nagi looks older than Tiki. So how can Nagi be an existence that, well, exists, if she had to have come into existence AFTER Tiki was born?

[Jotari]

On April 7, 2017 at 2:24 AM, VincentASM said:

Thanks to new content in Echoes, we now have some more backstory about Mila and Duma.

Firstly, this shouldn't be a huge surprise (not much of a spoiler), but the pair are confirmed to be dragons. Typically, in Fire Emblem, the ancient dragons were revered as gods (see Jugdral and Ylisse). So this makes sense.

However, Echoes goes one further by canonising the pair as Divine Dragons. Not only that, but Naga--the Divine Dragon King--is indirectly involved.

EDIT: For the sake of Shadow Dragon continuity, I've (reluctantly) chosen to refer to Naga as a dude. In Japanese, "King" is gender neutral so Naga can still be--and is most likely a woman (see Jugdral and Ylisse, and Nagi in Archanea if you believe the obvious theory).

During the final chapter, Mila appears in front of Alm and Celica during their most trying struggle.

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Mila

I am Mila, one you call a God... My brother Duma and I created this here land.

Mila
Indeed, that was my name once... However, the current me no longer has that kind of power.

Mila
The Falchion you hold... It was created from the Dragon King Naga's fang, a god-slaying weapon with no equal. Naga knew from the start. The fate that would await us dragonkin who lived for as long as the earth itself... and that was the dragonkin's inevitable descent into madness. Our fate was one of destruction. Knowing this, Naga gave the Falchion to Duma. For the day we could no longer control our impulses and cause calamity to the lands, it would serve as mankind's way of destroying us... the shining hope for the fangless ones. Yet I... To protect my brother, I sealed away the Falchion and myself... I loved and respected my brother and like my brother, I fell in love with humanity. Somewhere, I don't know where... where did we end up going wrong?

Mila
Alm, Anteze... o destined ones. Thank you for overcoming many struggles to reach here... Thanks to your efforts, I now understand the power that mankind possesses. Or perhaps I simply did not wish to admit that mankind could survive through their own power, without the help of us Gods. And perhaps Duma knew this as well... I shall grant the Falchion to you. I pray the Falchion releases Duma from the abyss of pain and despair...

As far as I understand, Mila apparently sealed herself away so humans couldn't access the Falchion. However she didn't realise how far beyond salvage Duma was.

In addition, the 10th and final memory sequence shows Mila and Duma forging the divine accord.

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Mila

Oh, Duma... why can you not understand? The world I want to create, where all living things can live in peace and prosperity? We can make Valentia a paradise on earth, free from all suffering.

Duma
Such foolishness! What point is there to a world like that? Humans have always survived through their own power... verily, they must strive to test the limits of their power. A life without struggles is but a empty shell.

Mila
That isn't true. During their lives, humans are constantly tested; there's no need for us to burden them further. I wish to rescue humans from their harsh struggles; I want to make their sorrows and pain disappear... Isn't that the responsibility of us who are called Gods?

Duma
Mila... Your blind love will simply lead humanity onto the path of ruin. Humans are weak creatures. Because they are weak, it is our responsibility as Gods to make them stronger.

Mila
...Duma... My one and only brother... We once shared a dream, to create our vision of paradise on Valentia... If we cannot agree, then further discussion is useless.

Duma
Hmph, what you say is true. We traveled to this distant land to seek our paradise... How long ago was that? Even I have forgotten... Mila, it appears we cannot live together. I shall govern over the northern realm, while you may govern over the southern realm. Individually, we shall seek our own ideals, and we shall never trespass into the other's realm; this will be our divine accord. Which of our choices will benefit humanity... time shall tell.

Mila
Indeed, I accept. The fighting has been exhausting. Farewell, Duma, I shall walk my chosen path. I pray that no what matter which side they fall on, humans shall live blessed lives...

Seems pretty civil to me, haha.

Finally, in the amiibo dungeons, there are some stone tablets that feature passages from the Valentian Book of Revelations. There's actually a surprising revelation in there. Chapter 15 which features in the first trailer is not actually about Mila and Duma.

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The Book of Valentian Revelations

Chapter 2
Duma and Mila, two siblings who existed since ancient times; known as Divine Dragons in a far off land.

Chapter 13
Against the King of the Divine Dragons, Duma ceaselessly argued.

Chapter 15
The earth split, the seas parted, and the heavens themselves threatened to come tumbling down.
The battle transcended any that history had yet know

Chapter 19
The merciful Dragon King gifted the exiled Duma with his own fang.

Chapter 20
The Falchion was the first blade to be crafted from the Dragon King's fang, and the king incarnate.

Chapter 21
Inheritors of the Divine Dragon blood--carriers of the Brand--held the right to invoke the true power of the Dragon King's fang, the embodiment of the king's strength.

Chapter 22
After Duma's banishment, Mila followed. At the end of an arduous journey, the two arrived upon these lands.

Chapter 26
In these lands, Duma seeked the power to dominate all things, while Mila seeked love and assurance; their ideals existed in parallel.

Chapter 29
As war threatened to engulf all things living, and tear the earth and heavens asunder, the thunderous echoes resounded with Mila's despair.

Chapter 30
Even after countless strife, Duma refused to turn the King's Fang on his sister.

Chapter 37
Duma and Mila granted two heroes with the blood of the Divine Dragon, giving them the rights to build their own nations.

In any case, I think it's cool they're unifying the dragons=gods and birthmark=Brand concepts. Plus we learn where Falchion came from, even if does seem a little wishy washy. I guess Valentia's Falchion was the original?
 

When has Naga ever been referred to as male in an English localisation? I'm rather fond of the idea that Naga is a gender hopping god but I've long since accepted the fact that she's a she and possibly always has been.

[SoulWeaver]

17 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Yeah, the case of Naga being a title was how people worked with the case of Naga's gender. But Nagi's existence as actually strange. The thing being is that Naga died and if she reincarnated into Nagi, that'd mean that she'd technically would have had to be born. But as we've seen, before Nowi, Tiki was the last Divine Dragon to be born. Plus, Nagi looks older than Tiki. So how can Nagi be an existence that, well, exists, if she had to have come into existence AFTER Tiki was born?

Hm…in this case, it could be somewhat similar to Grima's reincarnation - Nagi could've been born before Tiki, set apart as a special vessel for the current Naga to inhabit once she dies, placed in some kind of stasis until the events of her Chapter, etc. Obviously this doesn't explain everything, but hey, it's a thought, plus it sounds kind of neat to me as a writer.

[Emperor Hardin]

On 5/24/2017 at 2:20 PM, omegaxis1 said:

Oh my god, I haven't even been saying that Loptyr is weak anymore. Where have I been continuing that line of argument AT ALL? Naga being physically weaker has absolutely ZERO relevance in Loptyr's power. Did you not hear me at all when I said that Naga actually going against the clan's laws of meddling in human lives in such a manner and creating the Book of Naga is actually showing more emphasis on Loptyr's strength BECAUSE Naga was physically weaker? If Naga is physically weaker, meaning she cannot create another Falchion that's as strong as the other ones she made, then the fact that she to rely on a blood pact and a tome that can influence the holder, despite how much she dislikes the idea just shows that she acknowledges and/or fears Loptyr's strength. If anything, I'm PRAISING Loptyr's power at this point. Physical weakness holds no relevance when Naga herself never participated in the battle and it was her magical power that was there. If Naga directly participated in that battle and died, then me saying that Naga being weakened would be insulting to Loptyr's strength. But its not the case in this matter at all.

And I HAVE played Awakening and I've seen all the gameplay of FE4. I use reason and logic, and information that is provided to me by the canon to make theories. I don't just make random half assed explanations and reasons. If I make a theory, I have reasons behind it. If you disprove it, then that just means my theory is lacking and thus I have to move on.

Furthermore, the case of Grima isn't the same as Loptyr. Grima is stated by Naga herself to not be able to be killed. Only put to sleep. In fact, she even said that Grima WOULD awaken and come back 1000 years after being put to sleep. This opens up the question about whether Grima truly NEEDS a vessel to fully revive, because Naga never expressed any kind of mention that killing the vessels and bloodline would do it. In fact, the only thing Naga expressly said is that Grima can only be killed by his own power. This makes one wonder how that would make sense. Does that mean that Grima's bloodline cannot be truly extinguished? Des Grima's spirit return and just takes over? Does he regenerate? There's not enough information sadly, but the case is, Loptyr and Grima aren't the same. Loptyr is a Dragon that is possessing a human connected to his bloodline via a pact, which may or may not have been broken after Julius was killed. Since Loptyr never appeared again at this point, its not sure if Loptyr is alive anymore. Grima is instead an abomination that may actually be connected to Naga because he was created possibly by Naga's own blood and is a creation between life and death. Not only that, but Grima was GIVEN blood by Forneus, which isn't how the blood pact has worked for Loptyr, because Loptyr GAVE blood to Galle. 

Okay STOP. 

Forget about the case of possession here. Strike that off the record. I'm not continuing that line of argument anymore, because that's no longer part of the relevance in the argument here. 

I have been repeatedly saying why Naga didn't create another Falchion. If Naga was physically weakened, having just gotten out of the war, creating a Falchion and the Shield of Seals, then her life force is dangerously exhausted. Then she learns of Loptyr. If Naga was not confident in fighting Loptyr directly and didn't want to risk losing the Falchion she made for the humans of Archanea, but she cannot make another Falchion that's as strong as the other ones that holds the same power as her anymore, she decides to perform a desperate act and creates the tome that uses her powers. In this case, the tome holds just as much power as her, rivaling Falchion, but is dangerous that it can influence or possess the user with her will. But it was her only hope to fight Loptyr at that point. The case you're probably upset about is how, "Naga could have used Falchion to win and not needed the book of Naga at all." But that's just it, taking Falchion there was too risky. And say if there was already some spell on Falchion that attaches to bloodlines on it, then if she brought it and some human took it, then Falchion would HAVE to stay in Jugdral, and Naga just lost her weapon for Archanea and can't make another one.

Ike is not relevant in the matter with Duma. Ike is from a completely separate universe. It's the case of Falchion that Marth has and the Falchion that Lucina has. Both are supposed to be the same weapons from the same universe made by the same being Naga, but one amiibo CAN kill Duma, whereas the other CANNOT. That actually says a LOT. If Lucina cannot kill Duma with her Falchion, it stands to reason that her Falchion isn't as powerful as the Falchion that Marth wields, because her Falchion doesn't have access to its full might. That's what the gameplay was trying to hint at. 

I'm not ignoring everything. Stop thinking that I am. Actually LOOK at the information that is given to you. Naga herself directly states that Falchion's true might rivals her own in that same context. Forseti is speaking for Naga, but isn't actually Naga herself. There's a major difference in Forseti saying something about another being's power than the being themselves explaining their powers. To Forseti, it was their only hope and perhaps saw it as the strongest, but Falchion was not even in the same context of that conversation. And Naga says that Falchion's true might rivals her own, which would indicate that the Book of Naga should at best be as strong as Falchion. That's what the information is giving us now. 

The card game is not part of the actual continuity of the games. The artwork made into it is just purely for looks so that the card would show the item being more grand or unique than just some regular sphere. 

That case of yami doesn't mean a single thing though. There are no Earth Dragons or Shadow Dragons that have a connection with the spheres. Medeus is the only one that was a sane Earth/Shadow Dragon that existed at the place. Loptyr left, so he can't have any involvement, and the rest of the Earth Dragons went insane, and Medeus made no motion of involvement in it. Medeus only speaks of the Shield of Seals itself, and that's it. Meaning that if he holds no connection to the sphere, then the darksphere's only possible origin lies with the Divine Dragons. Simple as that. There are no implications that its origins lies with the other dragons at all. And given the dark magic that we are saying that Duma can do, it stands to reason that the orb can still be performed by Divine Dragons because they could just utilize some dark magic as well. It's not out of the realm of possibility anymore. 

Bantu never made any form of indication that he participated in the war. Forseti is still mostly considered to be a Divine Dragon. There are no confirmation if he belonged to any other tribe and the strongest logic is that he's from the Divine Dragon tribe. So he could have participated in the war for all we know. 

Watching some bits of FE4 isn’t the same as playing through the game. You miss a lot by just watching and not playing.

No, Grima is exactly the same case as Loptyr. He was only able to come back because of the vessel brought by his future self. There’s no evidence he can come back without a member of the Fellbood lineage. Naga means with a potential blood holder, Grima cannot be counted out. For example, Validar could have brothers, uncles, cousins, or other members of Forneus’s lineage. They could potentially breed another mark holder in the future, just as Loptyr's minor holders could.

You’re still pushing your personal head canon of Naga being wounded in the Miracle of Darna when nothing in canon indicates that all. You’re also continuing with “Grima is better then Loptyr, so you have to like Awakening” ideas.

Forseti knows what he’s talking about, you can't say a human loving dragon like him would be in the dark on the existence of the Falchion.

 

In game depiction.

TCG depiction 

 

DS depiction. This is one of many examples showing the TCG artwork is indeed taken into account. For the spheres, they didn’t have time.

Medeus was connected to the seal as its guardian. Dragons, including Earth Dragons were all once one big empire as mentioned in the timeline. Kaga has shown many times, Naga had allies besides Divine Dragons, including Medeus at one point you discounting non Divine Dragons is complete bollocks with no canon support.

As for the Awakening Emblem, that doesn't even work anything like the original and it still gives no origin on the spheres. Even if they do contain some of Awakening Naga's power, there's no evidence it was always like that, or that Naga made them out of their essence. Kaga clearly intended the spheres to not be solely Divine Dragon in origin. At most the Awakening era, Naga might've put some of her essence into the spheres which is indeed shown to be canonly possible as shown by Gharnef.

The official artist draws it with a Shadow Dragon ornament on it, its powers are entirely reminiscent of a Shadow Dragon, and has an identical relationship with the Lightsphere that Earth Dragons do with Divine Dragons. Just like Loptyr's essence, the Shadowsphere relates to Dark tomes, unlike Naga's essence which is light. Gotoh himself says the Darksphere can turn its user into a demon, its clearly not the product of a Divine Dragon's essence alone.

Naga used their powers intelligently, likely using the Falchion to fight in the war against the Degenerated Dragons. This was why Naga wasn't wounded in it. You're still clinging to this fanon despite everyone telling how absurd it is. 

Again, Kaga wouldn't leave out Naga being wounded and weakened. You're just going off your own ideas, while blatantly ignoring the writers.

You arguing absurd points like Duma being a Shadow Dragon, Shadow Dragons not existing, or Naga's tome not possessing people does prove you have plenty of wild ideas you push as canon.

TCG artwork is indeed official and its illustrator, Koya Katsuyoshi is still connected with Nintendo. You belittling his work simply because it goes against your head canons isn’t very respectful.

Also checking it out, the star sphere in Echoes is indeed implied to be the same one as the one in Archanea, more reason not to discount the TCG just because it goes against your fanon ideas.

Everything indicates Forseti is not a Divine Dragon which has already been discussed. Seriously you're insistence that he is with no evidence, is proof enough you know little of FE4 besides what you've skimmed through online. Bantu was one of Naga's closest servants, why wouldn't he participate in the world aside from it going against the retcons you want for the series?

Edited June 5, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[omegaxis1]

1 hour ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Watching some bits of FE4 isn’t the same as playing through the game. You miss a lot by just watching and not playing.

No, you know the story, you go through the entire gameplay, its still the same. Saying that not playing it means that you don't understand the story is not even true. If you've seen the story through even through a gameplay, then you do know it, especially if you understand the characters. So I can say for certainty that Loptyr as a character villain isn't that great. Is Grima better? No. Storywise, is Grima more powerful, yes he is. But am I saying that Loptyr is weak? Hell no. Loptyr is still very strong. 

1 hour ago, Emperor Hardin said:

No, Grima is exactly the same case as Loptyr. He was only able to come back because of the vessel brought by his future self. There’s no evidence he can come back without a member of the Fellbood lineage. Naga means with a potential blood holder, Grima cannot be counted out. For example, Validar could have brothers, uncles, cousins, or other members of Forneus’s lineage. They could potentially breed another mark holder in the future, just as Loptyr's minor holders could.

I cannot make a complete argument on the case on whether Grima can survive without a vessel. Reason being is that there is too little information. But Naga herself said that Grima cannot die. If killing the bloodline equalled removing his threat, then she would have mentioned it, but she never did, and insisted that Grima has to die by his own hand. However, you do have a point in the case that there could be others of the Fellblood lineage, but there was no indication that Validar had any other family members, as even Aversa was just a gifted village girl that Validar had found. Also, there's also the case of Grima can only be put to sleep for 1000 years. Why 1000? What happens if there's a pure Fellblood like Robin existing while the seal is still on? Does it mean that the Fellblood can awaken him early? Grima came back 1000 years after his first defeat, and there's been a vessel for him for several years now. This is the issue I had with Awakening, because it didn't give enough information about the circumstances about Grima's lineage.

And again, no, they are not exactly the same. Again, Loptyr's case is that he is an Earth Dragon GAVE a human his blood, and then put all his anger, rage, and hatred into the tome that held all his powers. Grima's case isn't the same, because he is a CREATED Dragon that was GIVEN blood. He was created using Divine Dragon blood, which I believe may have actually been Naga's, and then given Forneus' own blood. That's NOT the same at all. The entire blood pact is now the opposite. 

1 hour ago, Emperor Hardin said:

You’re still pushing your personal head canon of Naga being wounded in the Miracle of Darna when nothing in canon indicates that all. You’re also continuing with “Grima is better then Loptyr, so you have to like Awakening” ideas.

Forseti knows what he’s talking about, you can't say a human loving dragon like him would be in the dark on the existence of the Falchion.

Wrong. I don't think that Grima is better than Loptyr as a character or a villain. Like I mentioned above, Grima is only stronger than Loptyr storywise. Naga being wounded or weakened PHYSICALLY has NOTHING to do with the overall power that they hold. Think about it, Naga never fought Loptyr directly. Had Naga fought Loptyr directly and I say that she was weakened and still won, then yes, I would be insulting Loptyr's strength. My case being is that Naga being physically weakened is why she chose to make a tome that contained her powers instead of another Falchion. If they are the same strength, which by now would have to be the case at best given the dialogue in Awakening, it just shows the desperation Naga needed to produce a weapon that would actually put her will within humans. 

Does he? He's not Naga, is he? His power is inferior to hers. To him, her powers are something far above his, so all the information we can take from him is second hand. Naga HERSELF mentions that Falchion true might rivals her own. Even an argument about it being two different Nagas won't fully hold because of Tiki, who holds power equal to original Naga's, can awaken Falchion's true might like Awakening Naga can, meaning that both versions of Nagas would have to be even.

And again, if Falchion never went to Jugdral, then Forseti has no reason to talk about it. He didn't tell Seliph about the dragon war between the Divine and Earth Dragons, because the story wasn't necessary here. Its the same reason why Xane never told Marth and the others about Loptyr. The stories for each side are irrelevant. 

1 hour ago, Emperor Hardin said:

 

In game depiction.

TCG depiction 

 

DS depiction. This is one of many examples showing the TCG artwork is indeed taken into account. For the spheres, they didn’t have time.

That TCG depiction has Hardin holding a scythe. Tell me, was he ever holding a scythe in the game? No. And once again, I point out about the case of the spheres being merely made with decorations to be simple aesthetics. Hardin is an actual character. The spheres are merely orbs. You cannot compare the two to be the same. 

1 hour ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Medeus was connected to the seal as its guardian. Dragons, including Earth Dragons were all once one big empire as mentioned in the timeline. Kaga has shown many times, Naga had allies besides Divine Dragons, including Medeus at one point you discounting non Divine Dragons is complete bollocks with no canon support.

Medeus was NEVER stated to have participated in the war. It was literally explained that only the Divine Dragons fought in the war against the Earth Dragons and any other degenerated dragons. It was only said that Medeus was the sole Earth Dragon that became a Manakete and Naga made him with the task of guarding the seal. Even if Naga had other allies, it doesn't change what Xane said about who participated against the Earth Dragons, which are the Divine Dragons. That is canon support, taken from a direct line.

1 hour ago, Emperor Hardin said:

As for the Awakening Emblem, that doesn't even work anything like the original and it still gives no origin on the spheres. Even if they do contain some of Awakening Naga's power, there's no evidence it was always like that, or that Naga made them out of their essence. Kaga clearly intended the spheres to not be solely Divine Dragon in origin. At most the Awakening era, Naga might've put some of her essence into the spheres which is indeed shown to be canonly possible as shown by Gharnef.

I'm gonna say that this is arguing against what Hero of the Fire Emblems said about how the 5 Gemstones hold a portion of Naga's power. And actually, there IS evidence on that. The fact is, Naga created the Shield of Seals. The five orbs were already strongly implied to have been made alongside the Shield. Since Naga is the one that placed the seal on the Earth Dragons, then the orbs holding her powers and mounted onto the Shield would amount to using her full powers, thus being able to hold the seal indefinitely. 

Furthermore, you cannot say that Kaga CLEARLY intended the orbs to not be solely Divine Dragon origin. There was never any evidence to support that, and you cannot speak for Kaga on this. Now that the Earth Dragons no longer exist, likely because Grima ate them all, the power of the Shield of Seals is pointless. That's likely why the Awakening ritual was concocted. By being able to channel the power of the Shield of Seals ability to seal into Falchion, Falchion can be used to seal away Grima.

1 hour ago, Emperor Hardin said:

The official artist draws it with a Shadow Dragon ornament on it, its powers are entirely reminiscent of a Shadow Dragon, and has an identical relationship with the Lightsphere that Earth Dragons do with Divine Dragons. Just like Loptyr's essence, the Shadowsphere relates to Dark tomes, unlike Naga's essence which is light. Gotoh himself says the Darksphere can turn its user into a demon, its clearly not the product of a Divine Dragon's essence alone.

Once again, aesthetics. You cannot use an artwork from a TCG as hardcore evidence here. It's not an official artwork released from the video games, but from a card game. The five spheres were forged using magic in the end. The Darksphere was very likely created from dark magic. Naga would know knowledge on dark magic as well. Just because she is good at heart doesn't mean anything. And Duma, despite being a Divine Dragon, showed that he uses magic that can actually be very similar to the Darksphere, as he gave Jedah that protection, prevented anything but sacred weapons like Falchion defeat him, and the case where he is able to turn girls into witches and the case of witches being victims of souls being lost or offered, are all things that are also similar to the Darksphere as well, since the Darksphere absorbs souls as well. 

2 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Naga used their powers intelligently, likely using the Falchion to fight in the war against the Degenerated Dragons. This was why Naga wasn't wounded in it. You're still clinging to this fanon despite everyone telling how absurd it is. 

Again, Kaga wouldn't leave out Naga being wounded and weakened. You're just going off your own ideas, while blatantly ignoring the writers.

Who are these "everyone" anyways? Not everyone have actually been against me on this. Sure, lots of people, but not "everyone" as you claim. And I am not arguing against Naga using Falchion in the war. Falchion had to have been made during or after the war at least. And given how the Valentian Falchion seems to also display signs of being able to seal a Dragon's power, its possible that Archanean Falchion was used by Naga to seal the Earth Dragons in the first place. However, that doesn't at all counter that Naga came out of that war unscathed. The Earth Dragons numbered in the thousands as Gotoh said, and even degenerated, the Earth Dragons boasted tremendous might. Even fighting intelligently does not in any way guarantee that Naga was perfectly healthy.

Once again, even if Kaga never mentioned it, it doesn't say that he said that she was perfectly healthy either. And the fact that with Awakening revealing that Falchion's might rivals Naga's own, then Book of Naga had to have best rival that. So why did Naga make Book of Naga instead of another Falchion? You haven't answered that at all. You cannot argue that Book of Naga was stronger because again, at best the tome can only rival Falchion's might. Meaning that unless you can have an explanation on why Naga would go that route instead of another Falchion route, the only logical explanation would be that she was actually weakened physically and desperately needed to rival Falchion's power, so she made a tome of her powers, even at the risk of having her will be placed within humans. 

2 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

You arguing absurd points like Duma being a Shadow Dragon, Shadow Dragons not existing, or Naga's tome not possessing people does prove you have plenty of wild ideas you push as canon.

I don't even need to argue about the case of Duma being a Shadow Dragon. Really, I don't. I already mentioned above how he used magic very similar to the Darksphere, so I already proved that Darksphere can be made by Divine Dragons. ANd I already told you on the case of the possession of people is not the point here, yet you STILL bring it up.

2 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

TCG artwork is indeed official and its illustrator, Koya Katsuyoshi is still connected with Nintendo. You belittling his work simply because it goes against your head canons isn’t very respectful.

Oh don't even go there. He might have designed the cards, but the fact remains that the artworks in Mystery of the Emblem show full indication that the Darksphere was a full rounded sphere. No attachments on it. The TCG only shows the Darksphere for pure aesthetic reasons. And the story even indicates they are only spheres. Meaning that the TCG artwork having this attachment that you're so desperately clinging to has absolutely no support in the actual game. 

2 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Also checking it out, the star sphere in Echoes is indeed implied to be the same one as the one in Archanea, more reason not to discount the TCG just because it goes against your fanon ideas.

No, it isn't. The Starsphere in Echoes are not the same one. In fact, its legitimately the most pathetic argument you have now made. The Starsphere broke apart from the strain of creating Starlight, and Gotoh had the pieces, but they were stolen. You cannot try and say that Alm had gathered the pieces in Valentia, completed it, and then had it rebroken and stolen back all the way to Archanea, when that isn't the case at all. That is really lame that you would even TRY to make use of that. Also, this came from that pure dungeon DLC that has no story basis in it, and its only there that would would find the Starsphere shards, meaning that unlike story-wise DLC that other games have, this one legitimately has no canon basis. 

2 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Everything indicates Forseti is not a Divine Dragon which has already been discussed. Seriously you're insistence that he is with no evidence, is proof enough you know little of FE4 besides what you've skimmed through online. Bantu was one of Naga's closest servants, why wouldn't he participate in the world aside from it going against the retcons you want for the series?

WHERE does it say that? No, there is absolutely NO evidence saying that Forseti WASN'T a Divine Dragon. There's actually been MORE evidence that he's Divine Dragon. We talked about what his origins of tribe could be, but there was never any full indication about Forseti's tribe, but the strongest likelihood is that he's a Divine Dragon. Bantu served Gotoh, who served Naga. Not to mention, was Bantu ever mentioned to have participated in the war? Was it the Divine Dragons and Bantu in the war? No, it wasn't. He never made any comments about the war and was never mentioned to have participated. Divine Dragons were said to have participated in the war, hence why Xane and Gotoh very likely did participate in the war. Forseti would likely have stronger likelihood to being a Divine Dragon if he did participate in the war.

[Jotari]

9 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

 

TCG depiction 

Why is Gradivus a scythe? That weapon just can't manage to be consistent can it.

Anyway this looks like a whole can of works that I'm just skimming through but it looks like one of the questions is why didn't Naga just give a Falchion to Jugdral and I think the answer is pretty straight forward (to the extent that I'd be surprised if nobody has mentioned it already). The crusaders weren't fighting a dragon so a Falchion designed to seal a dragon would only be as good as any random Silver Sword.

Edited June 5, 2017 by Jotari

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Anyway this looks like a whole can of works that I'm just skimming through but it looks like one of the questions is why didn't Naga just give a Falchion to Jugdral and I think the answer is pretty straight forward (to the extent that I'd be surprised if nobody has mentioned it already). The crusaders weren't fighting a dragon so a Falchion designed to seal a dragon would only be as good as any random Silver Sword.

Falchion works like a normal sword regardless, and the power origins of the Loptyr tome are still dragon. Either way, Falchion would have worked in the end. Using a tome or a sword, it would be the same in the end, wouldn't it? Since its still her power. 

The issue is why would Naga opt for Book of Naga over Falchion when by now its been confirmed that Falchion's power rivals Naga herself, so the Book of Naga can at best only rival Falchion's might. But the issue with making the Book of Naga is that Naga needs to implant her own will into the weapon. Falchion was actually the SAFE method, where it can help the human have her power at their fingertips withOUT the side effect of her will influencing them. 

So the argument I am going with is that:

1) Because of the brutal war with the Earth Dragons, the forging of Falchion, the Shield of Seals, and possibly the 5 Gemstones, Naga was left physically weakened a great deal, her life forced strained a great deal. 

2) Having physically weakened, Naga can no longer forge a Falchion as powerful as the one she forged in Archanea and the one she gave Duma as her fangs have weakened as well. 

3) Learning of Loptyr, Naga went to Jugdral with 11 other Dragons. 

4) Being cautious, Naga chooses not to take the Falchion she made for Archanea to Jugdral as if something were to go wrong, Arcahnea would lose the weapon to defend themselves and the humans would be helpless. 

5) Worried about Loptyr's might, Naga believes she needs a weapon that can be used with her full power, but because she cannot make a Falchion anymore that would be strong enough, she chooses to go for a more risky route, and creates a blood pact and places her will and power into a tome like Loptyr did, but she felt it was a worrying decision because now humans that use her powers would be subject to influence, but there was no other choice and Loptyr had to be stopped. 

#1 is the thing that Hardin's arguing the most against, but he's not even made an attempt to answer the question I gave. 

[Jotari]

16 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Falchion works like a normal sword regardless, and the power origins of the Loptyr tome are still dragon. Either way, Falchion would have worked in the end. Using a tome or a sword, it would be the same in the end, wouldn't it? Since its still her power. 

The issue is why would Naga opt for Book of Naga over Falchion when by now its been confirmed that Falchion's power rivals Naga herself, so the Book of Naga can at best only rival Falchion's might. But the issue with making the Book of Naga is that Naga needs to implant her own will into the weapon. Falchion was actually the SAFE method, where it can help the human have her power at their fingertips withOUT the side effect of her will influencing them. 

So the argument I am going with is that:

1) Because of the brutal war with the Earth Dragons, the forging of Falchion, the Shield of Seals, and possibly the 5 Gemstones, Naga was left physically weakened a great deal, her life forced strained a great deal. 

2) Having physically weakened, Naga can no longer forge a Falchion as powerful as the one she forged in Archanea and the one she gave Duma as her fangs have weakened as well. 

3) Learning of Loptyr, Naga went to Jugdral with 11 other Dragons. 

4) Being cautious, Naga chooses not to take the Falchion she made for Archanea to Jugdral as if something were to go wrong, Arcahnea would lose the weapon to defend themselves and the humans would be helpless. 

5) Worried about Loptyr's might, Naga believes she needs a weapon that can be used with her full power, but because she cannot make a Falchion anymore that would be strong enough, she chooses to go for a more risky route, and creates a blood pact and places her will and power into a tome like Loptyr did, but she felt it was a worrying decision because now humans that use her powers would be subject to influence, but there was no other choice and Loptyr had to be stopped. 

#1 is the thing that Hardin's arguing the most against, but he's not even made an attempt to answer the question I gave. 

Falchon is designed to seal dragons and only dragons. This is expressly seen with the effective damage modifier it has and the fact that it has only ever sealed dragons. Galle was not a dragon, he was a human using a tome that had dragon origin. The Crusaders do not suffer additional damage from from the Holy Weapons themselves suggesting either blood bonded humans aren't considered dragons; or holy weapons are not designed to damage dragons. For your theory to work both conditions must be true and the game just doesn't support that fact (and it can't be up to Loptyr sharing more of his will than the other dragons because both Forseti and Naga did the same thing).

Now there is a possibility Falchion would be able to seal Galle (not that it would do all that much since they could just give the book to someone else) but it's a theory and not something that's directly supported in the game itself (the closest thing being that Book of Naga in Awakening deals effective dragon damage). Which means your building your theory on top of another theory which is a very unsteady foundation and boarders more along fanfiction than speculation.

Course the alternate explanation is that Naga didn't want to give up any more of her teeth. A girl's gotta eat after all XD

Edited June 5, 2017 by Jotari

[omegaxis1]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Falchon is designed to seal dragons and only dragons. This is expressly seen with the effective damage modifier it has and the fact that it has only ever sealed dragons. Galle was not a dragon, he was a human using a tome that had dragon origin. The Crusaders do not suffer additional damage from from the Holy Weapons themselves suggesting either blood bonded humans aren't considered dragons; or holy weapons are not designed to damage dragons. For your theory to work both conditions must be true and the game just doesn't support that fact (and it can't be up to Loptyr sharing more of his will than the other dragons because both Forseti and Naga did the same thing). Now there is a possibility Falchion would be able to seal Galle (not that it would do all that much since they could just give the book to someone else) but it's a theory and not something that's directly supported in the game itself (the closest thing being that Book of Naga in Awakening deals effective dragon damage). Which means your building your theory on top of a nother theory which is a very unsteady foundation and boarders more along fanfiction than speculation.

Course the alternate explanation is that Naga didn't want to give up any more of her teeth. A girl's gotta eat after all XD

LOL XD That last comment. 

I'm glad you're at least directly confronting my theory and trying to counter it by addressing it. See, the thing with Book of Naga isn't that it deals additional damage to Loptyr. It actually bypasses Loptyr's dark magic that halves all damage, with the Book of Naga is the only Jugdral weapon that can do that. However, given that the origin of the power is still Naga, wouldn't Falchion have been able to pierce through the half damage effect of Loptyr as well? 

[omegaxis1]

... WAIT! Unless... 

What if Naga didn't use Falchion not because it would be inferior, but rather because the Book of Naga would actually serve as a more direct counter to Loptyr's tome? Think about it, remember how Gotoh needed the Lightsphere and the Starsphere to forge the Starlight tome, which is the only spell that can pierce through Imhullu, the spell forged using the Darksphere? 

Maybe Loptyr's powers in the blood pact contained within the tome was just something that required a more specific countermeasure, so Falchion didn't have the functions to directly oppose it easily, so to give humans the best chance in Jugdral, she decided to make a tome of light that held her will and powers that could be used specifically against Loptyr. 

[Jotari]

18 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

... WAIT! Unless... 

What if Naga didn't use Falchion not because it would be inferior, but rather because the Book of Naga would actually serve as a more direct counter to Loptyr's tome? Think about it, remember how Gotoh needed the Lightsphere and the Starsphere to forge the Starlight tome, which is the only spell that can pierce through Imhullu, the spell forged using the Darksphere? 

Maybe Loptyr's powers in the blood pact contained within the tome was just something that required a more specific countermeasure, so Falchion didn't have the functions to directly oppose it easily, so to give humans the best chance in Jugdral, she decided to make a tome of light that held her will and powers that could be used specifically against Loptyr. 

Yes. That's exactly what happened. It's not even a theory. It's stated in game and supported by the gameplay. Whether Falchions, as we see them in other games, would be able to bypass the spell in the same way is a complete unknown. Though it should be noted there is a Lopt Sword in Thracia that gives its user the same damage cutting ability and can only be counteracted with a Blaggi sword. Curiously it gets very little focus in the plot and is clearly not connected to Loptyr or Naga themselves (probably some kind of replica created by both Blaggi and the Lopt Sect) but it does show the bypass ability in sword form. Nevertheless the fact that Galle is demonstrably not a dragon and the book of Naga does not deal effective damage against holy blood users is a big enough indication to me that Falchion would not have been an appropriate weapon to use. Just because Falchion is said to have power equal to Naga doesn't mean it can literally do everything Naga can do since it can't teleport people or turn into a ghost (well, as far as we know).

Edited June 5, 2017 by Jotari

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Jotari said:

Yes. That's exactly what happened. It's not even a theory. It's stated in game and supported by the gameplay. Whether Falchions, as we see them in other games, would be able to bypass the spell in the same way is a complete unknown. Though it should be noted there is a Lopt Sword in Thracia that gives its user the same damage cutting ability and can only be counteracted with a Blaggi sword. Curiously it gets very little focus in the plot and is clearly not connected to Loptyr or Naga themselves (probably some kind of replica created by both Blaggi and the Lopt Sect) it does show the bypass ability in sword form. Nevertheless the fact that Galle is demonstrably not a dragon and the book of Naga does not deal effective damage against holy blood users is a big enough indication to me that Falchion would not have been an appropriate weapon to use. Just because Falchion is said to have power equal to Naga doesn't mean it can literally do everything Naga can do since it can't teleport people or turn into a ghost (well, as far as we know).

That actually makes a LOT more sense. Not only that, but Ced even mentioned that the Forseti tome cannot be used to defeat the holder of the Lopt sword, and Forseti tome is the real Holy Weapon that is supposed to be incredibly powerful, and here the Lopt sword beats it and can only lose to the Blaggi sword. 

And if we go by the case of that, then I don't even NEED to consider that Naga was damaged, crippled, or anything, because despite Falchion's power, perhaps she felt that she needed to really make a weapon designed to take Loptyr out, hence the Book of Naga. I am not entirely sure on whether making the Book of Naga and sealing Tiki into sleep was enough to make Naga die, but that's another issue. But I can definitely accept that Naga's tome being made to counter Loptyr is not a testament to its power being superior to Falchion, but design for specific intention in mind. 

Jeez, how easy was that?! 

It took you just addressing my theory and actually talking about it with your theory to counter mine, and bam, here we are at an agreement. 

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

Ok I really need to bring this up, I was reading everything but then I had to pause

 

Not only is trying to argue the starsphere is the same in Echoes really a pathetic argument, Serenesforest just outright mistranslated it anyway. It's the star gemstone in the Japanese version and the star jancinth in the English version- neither language has it as the actual starsphere

Pretty much all of the DLC is canon to at least it's own Outrealm- that's how the DLC is set up so they don't have to say anything is canon. In fact the runes on the Mila Turnwheels seem to be the same runes on the Outrealm Gate from awakening, but I digress. Even taking this into account- it's the Star gemstone, not the star Orb, and you can procure multiples of them. That's not to say it has absolutely no relation- the entrance to the temple has a poem mentioning all five elements (light, stars, earth, life, darkness), but the genuine article is in 12 pieces and this gemstone is the star gemstone, also known as the star jancinth

idk if I mentioned it before, but I really did consider the possibility that the naga tome was built specifically to take on Loptyr because he had a dark tome- if I did mention it before sorry for redundancy

Edited June 6, 2017 by Hero of the Fire Emblems