Origins of Mila and Duma (unmarked Endgame spoilers)

[omegaxis1]

4 minutes ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

The fact that Loptyr's death quote has him vow to return and seek vengeance not only flies in the face of this, but this isn't true- Loptyr would merely have to make another blood pact and tie it to the tome in the same way the Exalt bloodline became tied to Falchion by a pact made in the era of the first Exalt.

That wouldn't work. Remember that for the blood pact to work, you need to actually perform it from a physical body. Loptyr lost his physical form, and thus has no way of actually performing any blood pacts that would allow any form of blood pacts to renew itself. The ONLY possible way for Loptyr to even return would be if Saias inherited Loptyr blood from Arvis and had children that had that as well. 

Also, given by how by the time of Awakening, or even the period in between with the First Exalt, a Divine Dragon (whom I'm betting is Nagi) had to have assumed the role of Naga and gained power, and thus performed a blood pact. If Naga had a physical form before taking that spiritual one, a blood pact is possible. 

7 minutes ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

and as previously said, its practically confirmed Loptyr DID return as Grima, and I've run down the list like ten fucking times now? Explaining all the identicial details between Grima and Loptyr- equal in power to Naga, cult with the exact same suffix, tome, bloodline incarnation (Julius/MU13), the most damning thing being the Deadlords who are outright confirmed by Intsys to be the same deadlords as in FE4/5, and the deadlords are loyal only to Loptyr (being pretty much a statement that Grima is, in fact, Loptyr reborn/reincarnated or else the deadlords wouldn't be playing ball with Aversa at all), both having a distinct loathing of Naga specifically which in Grima's case is largely unexplained if he's just a mindless monster seeking to destroy as insinuated in this thread earlier (which definitely doesn't seem to be the case here). All of this will make way too much sense to have Forenus or whatever the hell his name is be a not all upstairs Neo Loptyrian trying to revive Loptyr in a new body and succeeding.

Trust me, you are not the only one that ran the parallels. In fact, Werdna and I came up with an entire story of ideas on possibilities on how Loptyr and Grima were connected. Of course, that's no longer possible because Grima's backstory is now given. And the Deadlords aren't the EXACT sam Deadlords as FE4. Same concept of creation, but the bodies used are different. 

Also, remember that Grima and the Risen are actually stated to have been cultivated from a certain insect that bonds to a host. Meaning that these insects came from Jugdral, and that means Grima incorporated those insects to his own power, hence why he can not only create Deadlords, but Risen as well. 

The theory that Forneus might be Loptyrian was another theory that Werdna and I were discussing, where its possible that someone could be trying to perform alchemy and such to try and see if its possible to restore Loptyr's bloodline somehow, or maybe just restore Loptyr altogether without the blood rites. However, whether Grima and Loptyr are actually one and the same or hold a deeper relationship is still yet to be seen.

11 minutes ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

also, as an Archanea fanboy, I do not recall them ever once saying his FULL power can be accessed inside his castle; only that he can only assume Dragon form within the confines of his walls and is stuck in human form outside of them.

Was that what was said? I'll have to check back on that, then. But even then, still not out of doubts here, since if Medeus was a Shadow Dragon for real when fighting Anri, then why would he regress to an Earth Dragon when being revived, even if incomplete? Shouldn't by then, he'd always remain a Shadow Dragon rather than regress back to an Earth Dragon? This also goes with how his Dragonstone is called an Earthstone. 

[Armagon]

Just wondering, since Naga seems to be more of a title, as shown when Tiki became Naga in Future Past and also Awakening Naga having a borderline identical appearance to Nagi, which implies that Awakening Naga is actually Nagi, is it possible that the Naga that forged the Valentian Falchion is actually a different Naga than the one who forged the Archanean Falchion? Because we know that the Naga who forged the Archanean Falchion died at around age 5000, which is rather young for a Dragon.

If i'm understanding this correctly, the Dragon War happened before the events of Genealogy of the Holy War. And we know the Valentian Falchion was forged before the Dragon War. The Archanean Falchion was forged after the degenerated Earth Dragons were sealed, meaning it happened after the war. Now, in that 10th Memory Fragment, Duma states "Hmph, what you say is true. We traveled to this distant land to seek our paradise... How long ago was that? Even I have forgotten." At this point, Duma already had the Valentian Falchion, right? So between the time he received it, and the time the Divine Accord was forged, several millennia must've passed if Duma, a Dragon, forgot how long he's been on Valentia. Because of that, there is a possibility that this happened before Naga, specifically the one who forged the Arcahenan Falchion, was born. Because 5000 years is apparently nothing for a Dragon. But then Duma's been on Valentia for so long, he forgot how much time had passed.

I'm bringing this up because there's apparently a debate of why would Naga give Duma the Falchion, but then didn't make another Falchion during the Dragon War. The only way this makes sense is if the two Nagas are different, which isn't too far of a stretch considering Future Past.

Correct me if i'm wrong, there's just a lot in this debate that it's hard to keep track of.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Armagon said:

Just wondering, since Naga seems to be more of a title, as shown when Tiki became Naga in Future Past and also Awakening Naga having a borderline identical appearance to Nagi, which implies that Awakening Naga is actually Nagi, is it possible that the Naga that forged the Valentian Falchion is actually a different Naga than the one who forged the Archanean Falchion? Because we know that the Naga who forged the Archanean Falchion died at around age 5000, which is rather young for a Dragon.

If i'm understanding this correctly, the Dragon War happened before the events of Genealogy of the Holy War. And we know the Valentian Falchion was forged before the Dragon War. The Archanean Falchion was forged after the degenerated Earth Dragons were sealed, meaning it happened after the war. Now, in that 10th Memory Fragment, Duma states "Hmph, what you say is true. We traveled to this distant land to seek our paradise... How long ago was that? Even I have forgotten." At this point, Duma already had the Valentian Falchion, right? So between the time he received it, and the time the Divine Accord was forged, several millennia must've passed if Duma, a Dragon, forgot how long he's been on Valentia. Because of that, there is a possibility that this happened before Naga, specifically the one who forged the Arcahenan Falchion, was born. Because 5000 years is apparently nothing for a Dragon. But then Duma's been on Valentia for so long, he forgot how much time had passed.

I'm bringing this up because there's apparently a debate of why would Naga give Duma the Falchion, but then didn't make another Falchion during the Dragon War. The only way this makes sense is if the two Nagas are different, which isn't too far of a stretch considering Future Past.

Correct me if i'm wrong, there's just a lot in this debate that it's hard to keep track of.

Actually, its still believed that they came from the same Naga of Archanea. Naga forged the Valentian Falchion before the Dragon War ever began and gave it to Duma, with the intention that its given to humans so that if Duma and Mila ever degenerate into madness, humans could take up the Falchion and kill them. Pretty stupid if you ask me, given how unless Naga knew that Duma would actually give it to humans, this plan could very well have turned sour. In fact, if Duma never gave Falchion to humans, and then degenerated to madness, then why would Falchion ever be effective then? It's sort of baffling. 

However, why Duma cannot remember how long its been could be played as a factor of degeneration. Since it affects their mind, Duma's mind could simply have weakened to a point that it was difficult to remember the earlier memories.

Thanks for going by my issues with the age case. If Naga died at the mere age of 5000, which was probably dragon for someone in their 30s in my opinion, I've given various reasons as to why Naga died so prematurely. The biggest factor being: The very Dragon War itself.

Going against the Earth Dragons, even if the enemy lacked the intelligence, they were still savagely powerful and drove humanity to near extinction easily. Naga fought in that war alongside the other Divine Dragons like Gotoh and Xane. My theory is that the war was so devastating that Naga had suffered injuries or such that likely crippled her own life force. Its theorized that Naga forged Falchion ad fought with it during the war, but there are no definite facts or info on exactly when it was forged. However, the reason it was forged was to give humanity a chance to protect itself if dragons ever become a problem. However, why that's the case is in my opinion because Naga believed that she would die soon. 

After defeating the Earth Dragons and sealing them, Naga used more of her powers through one of her fangs to forge the Shield of Seals, that held the 5 Gemstones. How those Gemstones were forged, not sure, but my theory is that 5 other Divine Dragons used all their powers and lives to create it, as its likely those Gemstones are actually unique Dragonstones, as the Holy Weapons of Jugdral are stated to be dragonstones, along with Falchion, Aura, etc. Together with the Shield of Seals, the seal holding the Earth Dragons would never wither. 

Its a bit or later after the war with the dragons that Naga then learned of Loptyr, a renegade Earth Dragon that went to Jugdral. Allying with 11 other Dragons, one of them being Forseti, Naga went to Jugdral, and then the Miracle of Darna happened. 

However, because of the war with the dragons, and the power used to create another Falchion and even the Shield of Seals, Naga lacked the strength for forge yet another Falchion, and thus decided to do what Loptyr did, and through a blood pact, she then created a tome that could hold her powers so that it could potentially rival Falchion's might, transferring her will into the tome as well to keep the power flowing. However, this only serves to further strain her dying life force. After that was over, she returned to Archanea with the other dragons.

Once she returned, there was one more matter to settle: Tiki, Naga's daughter. Tiki's power was immense, the potential being possible to rival, if not surpass Naga's own. Fearing what a degenerated Tiki would be like, Naga considered killing Tiki, but was dissuaded by Gotoh. So instead, Naga used all her remaining power to put Tiki into a deep sleep, and also enshrined Falchion and the Shield of Seals in the Fane of Raman, and assigned Gotoh the task of watching over Tiki and humanity, especially if dragons begin causing trouble. With that, Naga's life finally reaches its end and she dies. 

Of course, what I said could very well be incorrect, and the truth could be something else. However, this is how I believe is the most logical case after verifying all the information I got. Both Hardin and Jack disagree with me, but hey, can't be helped. They could be right for all I know. But this is my stand on the matter.

[Emperor Hardin]

On 4/28/2017 at 7:39 AM, omegaxis1 said:

Exactly. Why didn't she make another Falchion for Jugdral? Mila even called it a weapon without equal. 

No, the opposite. Naga even giving a Falchion to a dragon that could easily use it against her is absurd, especially if she's already predicting the dragons to descend into madness. Unless Naga could predict that Duma would give it to a human? Would she be able to tell that about him? If she wants to protect the people of Valentia and give the humans there a chance, then by all means, giving Duma the Falchion to be intended to be used against him is basically telling Duma, "Here's a weapon that you have to give humans to use to kill you after you go mad."

"Sure Naga, I'd just love to have the humans stab my emo laser eye with the sword I could have easily withheld from humans to use."

Like I said the entire time, the only reason that this reason of Naga giving the Valentian Falchion is even occurring is because they needed a reason on its existence. However, IS has sadly given a rather retarded reason. 

How is me explaining that Falchion is the stronger weapon in any way putting FE4 down as a whole? It doesn't. 

Also, again, let me remind you once again that if Naga put all her power and will into the tome, she would ultimately possess humans just as Loptyr did. It even never stated explicitly that she put ALL her power and will. Just that she did put her power and will. Forseti is different because he did place so much of his will into it as stated that the tome inherited his strong passion. 

Because if Naga did put all her will and power into the tome, then Julia and other users of the tome would be possessed as well. But none of them ever are. Because as Kaga DID state, Naga disliked interfering with the humans, and the process of even placing her will into the tome was a worrying decision. So no, Kaga never actually said that Naga possessed people in the manner that Loptyr or Forseti did. Her will influences people more, yes, but they never possessed them. 

Have you forgotten that Medeus is a true Shadow Dragon only at the end of Mystery? He's called a Shadow Dragon by humans. I don't recall if Gotoh ever called him a Shadow Dragon in FE11. 

Werdna gave a good example of the case: Shadow/Dark Dragons aren't limited to just Earth Dragons, but rather it is a title for all dragons that have their powers corrupted. Duma even in SoV is referred to as a "Dark God" and despite him being a Divine Dragon, shows his figure and form to be darker and more menacing, indicating that his powers are corrupted. If anything, he's also showing to becoming or already become a Shadow Dragon as well. 

Its not that I hate Loptyr. Its more like I was disappointed with Loptyr overall.

Like, in the course of a great story that we've had in Jugdral, we have the final boss, the very dark god that's feared by so much and throughout the story was the product that Manfroy manipulated every event in the game, ends up having no form of personality whatsoever. Don't get me wrong, Grima is bad in that regard as well. But when I look at the overall cases of both their backgrounds, I feel as if its more disappointing to me on Loptyr's case. 

Couldn't we have had Loptyr's personality show a greater degree in FE4? All we see is that he turned Julius into a cruel and twisted person that wants to make humans suffer. But that's it. For a game that really showed an amazing story, Loptyr was just upsetting as a villain in the end cause he was basically a guy that hates humans just for the sake of hating humans. 

Naga would need centuries of training to make a physically frail body be any way effective against the Earth Dragons that wiped out humans to the point of extinction. And even if she did train, its less likely that she got out of that war unscathed. 

Yes. A villager. Given the power of the Deadlords, and the Loptyrians, its obvious why the war dragged on. The Miracle of Darna allowed Heim and the other Crusaders to push back the Loptyrians and then finally make it to Loptyr himself. 

Loptyr was never put to sleep. In the case of Loptyr, the blood pact is what allowed his soul to live on. So long as someone holds Minor or Major blood of his, he can continue on living. It wasn't a matter that Naga couldn't kill Loptyr here, she failed to kill Loptyr, because Maira and his descendents lived on carrying Loptyr's blood. In the case of Grima though, its hinting that even bloodlines being killed would not end Grima, as Naga states that the only thing that can kill Grima is if Grima were to die by his own hand.

I am pretty sure that every case of where someone brings a monstrosity to life from living and dead, that creature always harbors the instinctive desire to kill and destroy. And said destroyer ultimately does destroy the world, twice. One in the original timeline, and the other in the Future Past timeline. Grima even goes as far as to kill Naga, though that's hinting that it isn't that he can't kill Naga, but rather can't kill the role of Naga, since Tiki took over despite how she was physically killed by Grima as well. 

As for the case of the Earth Dragons, while yes, it is stated that Earth Dragons don't fully die because of their lifespans, given how the war was so devastating, its not beyond the realm of possibility that several Earth Dragons had died, and the remaining ones were put to sleep under the Dragon's Table. 

You're forgetting that the "shell" is still a degenerated mind. All Earth Dragons apart from Medeus had gone insane. And Medeus also shows signs of being insane, particularly at the end of Mystery, since degeneration still occurs if Manaketes take their dragon forms. So if you use a degenerated dragon's mind, even if its dead or an empty husk of a sleeping dragon, Grima would inherit that degenerated mind that would instinctively harbor destructive thoughts. 

Without equal for slaying dragons on Valentia. Mila, an exile kept away from dragon history, wasn't aware of Naga putting their essence into tome on Jugdral.

No lore would dictate pretty much no dragon but Naga would think of using a sword, something only a human would do. Remember almost no Dragons took manakete form and the few that did, still acted differently like humans. You're idea that Naga would withhold a Falchion from Earth Dragons who moved to a continent full of humans is entirely absurd. 

Except nothing indicates Falchion is the stronger weapon. Falchion is just a Dragon's tooth, Dragons at full power use their breath/essence, the book of Naga is stated to be the most powerful holy weapon, moreso then Falchion's counterpart Tyrfing. You repeatedly going against canon simply to put down FE4 is putting the game down.

No Kaga directly stated, Naga's transfers the dragon's will into the user which is exactly the same description of the Forsetti and Loptyr tomes. You are literally ignoring Kaga's words just for the sake of claiming Loptyr is weak and Grima is god. Again, why deny this?

Medeus is stated at several points to not have his full power such as his battle quote against Nagi. Gotoh also refers to Shadow Dragons in a way showing they are something that has existed in their world. Medeus was clearly not the first Shadow Dragon.

Duma is “Evil God” in Japan and its explained, its simply a slanderous nickname given to him by the Mila worshipping Zofians. Duma looks nothing at all like a Shadow Dragon. Shadow Dragons are black purple with fins with Dark breath and the ability to halve damage, neither of which are traits Duma has at all. He's clearly not a Shadow Dragon.

Duma is “Evil God” in Japan and its explained, its simply a slanderous nickname given to him by the Mila worshipping Zofians. Duma looks nothing at all like a Shadow Dragon. Shadow Dragons are black purple with fins with Dark breath and the ability to halve damage, neither of which are traits Duma has at all. He's clearly not a Shadow Dragon. Speaking of which, Gotoh refers to Medeus as a Dark Earth Dragon.

Loptyr only got the last map you realize, meanwhile Grima got most of the game, yet had no personality at all then "nya haha, I am so evil." Loptyr hates humans because they replaced his kind and he's very bitter about it. I believe one of the FE4 novels covers Loptyr's personality and thoughts.

That again shows Loptyr and Naga were equals just like Kaga and the game itself say. 

No Loptyr was put to sleep, just like Grima, he could be awakened so long as someone with major Loptyr blood existed. The situation with Grima is literally exactly the same except Grima found a way to die for good. The only reason present Grima was able to revive was due to help from the Grima possessed Robin of the Future Timeline.

You have no source for claiming Naga would need centuries of training. Xane was able to learn how to use a sword on his own.

There's literally no source for that, beings like Grima such as War Dragons usually obey their creator and take a while to develop their own sense of self.

All sources from Kaga say a body with no essence, spirit or life-force would be pointless, like trying to get the power and intelligence of a snake from a  snake’s shed skin. Just like a shed skin, the spirit of the dragon would've left as it resurrects, leaving the corpse an empty shell with nothing. Alternatively the corpse would regenerate with the Dragon. Either way, no Earth Dragon corpses.

 And Grima wouldn't gain any destructive thoughts from a degenerated dragon husk if he has sentience, something Degenerated Dragons completely lack in Archanea.

You already admiteded you dislike Loptyr, don't want to think he's Naga's equal despite Kaga's words, and want to make Grima look better by downplaying Loptyr.

Edited April 30, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[omegaxis1]

10 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

No lore would dictate pretty much no dragon but Naga would think of using a sword, something only a human would do. Remember almost no Dragons took manakete form and the few that did, still acted differently like humans. You're idea that Naga would withhold a Falchion from Earth Dragons who moved to a continent full of humans is entirely absurd. 

This argument is literally pointless the more we go on about it. It all stemmed from the fact that you don't like that Duma is a dragon, or more like a Divine Dragon because of all the elemental stuff. But he's a Divine Dragon. Retcon. It happened. Basically, deal with it. 

10 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Without equal for slaying dragons on Valentia. Mila, an exile kept away from dragon history, wasn't aware of Naga putting their essence into tome on Jugdral.

Except nothing indicates Falchion is the stronger weapon. Falchion is just a Dragon's tooth, Dragons at full power use their breath/essence, the book of Naga is stated to be the most powerful holy weapon, moreso then Falchion's counterpart Tyrfing. You repeatedly going against canon simply to put down FE4 is putting the game down.

Said "dragon's tooth" is imbued with the magical power and properties of Naga herself. The fang of the dragon holds all her power. Hell, Awakening pretty much guaranteed that, as the Falchion was at full power before, but upon this blood pact renewal or such through the Awakening process, the blade attained the ability to seal Grima himself away, a power that Falchion never had before. But after the Gemstones are separated from the Shield of Seals, the sealing pretty much worked in reverse, and thus the blade's power was weakened. This last part is actually what I theorize as to why Falchion's power was somehow sealed. 

Naga even stated this when she unlocked Falchion's full power.

"With my blessing, thou may draw forth Falchion's true might. The blade of the exalts shall again strike like the dragon's fang. Your strength will then be my equal."

^ In other words, Falchion's full power IS in fact the entirety of Naga's own power. It's precisely because of this that Falchion is regarded as the ultimate godslayer without equal by Mila, because i there's nothing or no one stronger than Naga, then her fang has no equals. And before you pull the "different Naga" notion, remember that this Naga is likely Nagi, Naga's reincarnation, and also this Naga has the power to bend the fabric of space-time. This already shows that this new Naga is by no means a slouch, and the fact that Tiki can replace her and she's already been mentioned to have the potential to rival/surpass the original Naga, this just further proves my point.

10 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

No Loptyr was put to sleep, just like Grima, he could be awakened so long as someone with major Loptyr blood existed. The situation with Grima is literally exactly the same except Grima found a way to die for good. The only reason present Grima was able to revive was due to help from the Grima possessed Robin of the Future Timeline.

It's not explained why Grima can only be killed by his own power, but Loptyr's isn't the same case. Grima might resemble Loptyr through their parallels, but whereas Loptyr pulled the same line as Medeus about coming back with no clear indication that he ever does, its directly stated that Naga CANNOT kill Grima, and her power can only at best put him to sleep, and Grima can ONLY be killed by his own power, which Grima ultimately screwed himself over by going back in time.

Whether Loptyr went to sleep is unsure, because the last living descendent that we know held Loptyr blood was Julius. Unless Saias was confirmed to hold the blood as well, Loptyr has no bloodline left, and that would essentially mean the pact itself is broken, so Loptyr's ability to even exist through his tome is rendered null.

10 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

No Kaga directly stated, Naga's transfers the dragon's will into the user which is exactly the same description of the Forsetti and Loptyr tomes. You are literally ignoring Kaga's words just for the sake of claiming Loptyr is weak and Grima is god. Again, why deny this?

I am not DENYING what Kaga said. I'm saying the other factors that we have seen in the game and the case with how Kaga described Naga's position in the matter. In the game, we see that Loptyr and Forseti did in fact possess their hosts. Naga never did, but I believe Julia mentioned feeling Naga's will. Not sure completely. Anyways, Julia wasn't fully affected in the case that she was possessed. Now, going with what Kaga said, whereas Naga worried over the fact that putting her will into the tome would mean she would influence humans, this was worrisome because she didn't want/like to meddle with humans. 

Loptyr hated humans with such a passion that anyone taking his tome gets overwhelmed by that will. Forseti was stated to have a strong compassion for humans and was even willing to break the decree that dragons should not meddle in the affairs of humans. But his compassion was said to have passed into the tome. 

I do not deny Naga's will being placed into the tome. I DO deny that she put all her will when she dislikes the idea of being involved with humans in such a degree, and personality of the dragons do hold an effect on their will through the tome. 

10 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Medeus is stated at several points to not have his full power such as his battle quote against Nagi. Gotoh also refers to Shadow Dragons in a way showing they are something that has existed in their world. Medeus was clearly not the first Shadow Dragon.

I no longer deny the notion that there could have been other Shadow Dragons in the past. However, Shadow Dragons are not limited to just Earth Dragons, which you can at least acknowledge as well.

10 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Duma is “Evil God” in Japan and its explained, its simply a slanderous nickname given to him by the Mila worshipping Zofians. Duma looks nothing at all like a Shadow Dragon. Shadow Dragons are black purple with fins with Dark breath and the ability to halve damage, neither of which are traits Duma has at all. He's clearly not a Shadow Dragon. Speaking of which, Gotoh refers to Medeus as a Dark Earth Dragon.

Look at him in both cases, both in Gaiden and then in SoV.

One case shows that he's some freaky slime monsters, but if you actually look closely, he looks somewhat like a dracozombie. The other case, Duma's shown to be a Dragon, and he's a Divine Dragon. However, Divine Dragon's skin are gold or silver usually. However, Duma's skin alters to a darker scheme, going to a midnight blue. Even if he wasn't a true Shadow Dragon, its clear that his power was growing darker and more sinister. 

If any of the Dragon Tribes are capable of being corrupted into the point that they became Shadow Dragons, then Duma was definitely becoming one, if the look he has in SoV isn't him already one. 

10 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Loptyr only got the last map you realize, meanwhile Grima got most of the game, yet had no personality at all then "nya haha, I am so evil." Loptyr hates humans because they replaced his kind and he's very bitter about it. I believe one of the FE4 novels covers Loptyr's personality and thoughts.

You already admiteded you dislike Loptyr, don't want to think he's Naga's equal despite Kaga's words, and want to make Grima look better by downplaying Loptyr.

FE4 had a novel? I don't recall that ever being mentioned or shown here in Serenes. Also, did you really miss the part where I said that Grima isn't let off the hook for that? In Awakening, the story is flawed and the pacing is just really rushed. Genealogy is a great story, superior to Awakening's in many ways. However, because its so great that you have to realize that Loptyr actually WASN'T that great of a villain. The entire point of the story was more about Manfroy's plot to revive Loptyr and thus exact vengeance on the people that persecuted the Loptyrians. 

But Loptyr appeared literally that one time, and everything we learned in the interview and the rest of how the Earth Dragons were, is just a bad reason. Loptyr being bitter about humans taking over does seem to be a case, but it would make way more sense for Loptyr to hate the Divine Dragons more if anything. They're the ones that suggested it, and they are the ones that stopped the Earth Dragons when they attacked humanity. Loptyr doesn't know what became of the Divine Dragon tribe because he abandoned the war midway, but he was sure that the Earth Dragons would lose. But instead all he wanted to do was just terrorize humans that have actually done him no wrong, and that just makes him that much more petty in my opinion.

For everything that was great about Genealogy, Loptyr himself wasn't. 

10 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

That again shows Loptyr and Naga were equals just like Kaga and the game itself say. 

Also, if we go with the assumption that Naga's tome holds her power and rivals Falchion, which is called the strongest weapon and I just pointed out that Falchion's full power rivals the might of Naga herself, then I'm not really denying that Naga and Loptyr are equals from that point, am I? 

10 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

You have no source for claiming Naga would need centuries of training. Xane was able to learn how to use a sword on his own.

Xane imitates people. His own stats show that he's JUST as frail as every other Manakete. 

10 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

There's literally no source for that, beings like Grima such as War Dragons usually obey their creator and take a while to develop their own sense of self.

All sources from Kaga say a body with no essence, spirit or life-force would be pointless, like trying to get the power and intelligence of a snake from a  snake’s shed skin. Just like a shed skin, the spirit of the dragon would've left as it resurrects, leaving the corpse an empty shell with nothing. Alternatively the corpse would regenerate with the Dragon. Either way, no Earth Dragon corpses.

 And Grima wouldn't gain any destructive thoughts from a degenerated dragon husk if he has sentience, something Degenerated Dragons completely lack in Archanea.

Did you miss the thing that even when he was just created, or a bit afterwards, there were destructive thoughts that was taking Forneus? 

Also, are you ACTUALLY saying that spirits makes brain degradation moot? The Earth Dragon's "shell" still houses a degenerated brain that only has destructive urges. Creating Grima from degenerated dragons, the degeneration is always active in the dragon's body, and thus would be "inherited" into Grima. Let's also add the fact that this is dark alchemy and using insects that creates the Deadlords and later on the Risen. 

To say that Grima's sentience would by no means gain those destructive thoughts from all that makes absolutely no sense. 

Edited April 30, 2017 by omegaxis1

[Armagon]

22 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Pretty stupid if you ask me, given how unless Naga knew that Duma would actually give it to humans, this plan could very well have turned sour.

One possible explanation to this is that perhaps Naga had the power of foresight at that time. And foresight is uncommon but not unheard of in Fire Emblem. We also know that someone can see a vision of the future once in their life and never again. Celica had a vision of Alm getting rekt by Rudolf and that was the only vision she ever had, unless i'm missing something. If humans can have foresight sometimes, then dragons should be able to as well. To my knowledge however, there is no evidence that Naga did or didn't have foresight at one point in her life.

This is not in the Archanea continuity so it's invalid but i do want to point out that Sophia, a half-dragon, had foresight powers, even if they were weak.

9 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

There's literally no source for that, beings like Grima such as War Dragons usually obey their creator and take a while to develop their own sense of self.

The War Dragons are much different. War Dragons are essentially just drones that Idunn can make an infinite supply of. War Dragons had no sense of self, they just follow orders and that's it. Grima, on the other hand, is just an unholy abomination, and definitely has a mind of his own. Also, since Forenus is never actually seen, i'm going to assume Grima ate him or something, unless i'm missing something. We don't know how long it took for Grima to be created. All we know as that he wrecks havoc 1000 years later.

24 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

FE4 had a novel?

I don't know about the novel but there was a manga. Well, a few, but the one written by Mitsuki Oosawa is the best one.

 

Anyway, i'm gonna have to agree that Grima is more powerful than Loptyr, if only for the sole fact that in Future Past, Grima is the only known character in the entire series to have killed Naga. That's why Tiki in Future Past had to become the new Naga. And Naga's been shown to be among the most powerful characters in the series. The only characters who are likely more powerful than her are Ashera and Anankos (and Future Past Grima, since he killed her).

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

Wait, Naga said that while she cannot kill Grima neither can he kill her when explaining this to Chrom

 

That throws the entire notion of Naga being unable to kill him into question if he managed to kill her in future past

[Armagon]

Just now, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

Wait, Naga said that while she cannot kill Grima neither can he kill her when explaining this to Chrom

 

That throws the entire notion of Naga being unable to kill him into question if he managed to kill her in future past

Welcome to Awakening.

I mean, i love Awakening but it's plot didn't make sense sometimes.

Grima, just do a barrel roll, geez.

[omegaxis1]

2 minutes ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

Wait, Naga said that while she cannot kill Grima neither can he kill her when explaining this to Chrom

That throws the entire notion of Naga being unable to kill him into question if he managed to kill her in future past

I think it was more of the "role" of Naga, as the fact that a powerful enough Divine Dragon like Tiki can maintain their spiritual self can inherit and assume the new Naga shows that Grima cannot permanently end the power that Naga possesses. These are just theories to go on, really, but it does make some sense I think. 

[Armagon]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

I think it was more of the "role" of Naga, as the fact that a powerful enough Divine Dragon like Tiki can maintain their spiritual self can inherit and assume the new Naga shows that Grima cannot permanently end the power that Naga possesses. These are just theories to go on, really, but it does make some sense I think. 

Adding to that, whenever Grima is sealed, his skeleton is still left behind. So it's possible that Grima and Naga can kill each other's physical self, but their power and spirit will always remain, which is why Grima is able to return every 1000 years and there can be different Nagas.

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

18 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Adding to that, whenever Grima is sealed, his skeleton is still left behind. So it's possible that Grima and Naga can kill each other's physical self, but their power and spirit will always remain, which is why Grima is able to return every 1000 years and there can be different Nagas.

Which kind of still throws that being a point against being Loptyr out the window

 

assuming Loptyr and Grima are indeed one and the same (which is likely) and it's the power and spirit remaining, him being "killed" in FE4 would be the same as him being "killed" by the first Exalt. The avatar just managed to actually destroy his lingering presence in Awakening's Good Ending, I take it. And this would even go past blood pacts; all the blood pact really seems to do for Loptyr/Grima is let them manifest in a host

 

EDIT: adding onto this, I definitely think this is why Intsys is insistent that the deadlords are the same. Same Souls, new host bodies in Awakening. Paying attention I don't think the deadlords are consistent even between 4 and 5, so they definitely swap bodies a lot while being the same souls; thus being what Intsys is likely meaning with the souls (not the bodies themselves) serving Loptyr alone

Edited April 30, 2017 by Hero of the Fire Emblems

[omegaxis1]

41 minutes ago, Armagon said:

One possible explanation to this is that perhaps Naga had the power of foresight at that time. And foresight is uncommon but not unheard of in Fire Emblem. We also know that someone can see a vision of the future once in their life and never again. Celica had a vision of Alm getting rekt by Rudolf and that was the only vision she ever had, unless i'm missing something. If humans can have foresight sometimes, then dragons should be able to as well. To my knowledge however, there is no evidence that Naga did or didn't have foresight at one point in her life.

This is not in the Archanea continuity so it's invalid but i do want to point out that Sophia, a half-dragon, had foresight powers, even if they were weak.

Actually, if we do go onto the foresight thing, then that means what Mila said regarding the fate of dragons descending into madness was something that she said Naga knew from the start to mean that Naga DOES have some ability of clairvoyance. But does it extend to multiple futures? Would mean that she gave the Falchion to Duma either because she foresaw what would happen otherwise, or that if she did go that route, she foresaw that Alm would take it to defeat Duma.

[omegaxis1]

21 minutes ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

Which kind of still throws that being a point against being Loptyr out the window

assuming Loptyr and Grima are indeed one and the same (which is likely) and it's the power and spirit remaining, him being "killed" in FE4 would be the same as him being "killed" by the first Exalt. The avatar just managed to actually destroy his lingering presence in Awakening's Good Ending, I take it. And this would even go past blood pacts; all the blood pact really seems to do for Loptyr/Grima is let them manifest in a host

EDIT: adding onto this, I definitely think this is why Intsys is insistent that the deadlords are the same. Same Souls, new host bodies in Awakening. Paying attention I don't think the deadlords are consistent even between 4 and 5, so they definitely swap bodies a lot while being the same souls; thus being what Intsys is likely meaning with the souls (not the bodies themselves) serving Loptyr alone

Grima was created though through dark alchemy. Unless we're to take it that this alchemy was for the purpose of creating a homunculus body for Loptyr, but I think it was stated to try and create the ultimate life form, and made no mention to Loptyr. 

Since this Forneus guy is said to also have given his blood to Loptyr, I believe a blood pact was somehow made there, but this time its the opposite. Remember that before, the blood pacts were the dragons giving blood to humans. Here its the human giving Grima the blood. How this affects the blood pact with regards to Grima, I am not sure. Furthermore, Grima possesses Divine Dragon blood as well, making him very different from other dragons. There's theories that the Divine Dragon blood is actually Naga's or Tiki's. 

And remember that SoV refers to unique insects that bonds to hosts that the alchemist brought back with him. These would be the same insects that became the Deadlords then. 

[Armagon]

11 minutes ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

Which kind of still throws that being a point against being Loptyr out the window

 

assuming Loptyr and Grima are indeed one and the same (which is likely) and it's the power and spirit remaining, him being "killed" in FE4 would be the same as him being "killed" by the first Exalt. The avatar just managed to actually destroy his lingering presence in Awakening's Good Ending, I take it. And this would even go past blood pacts; all the blood pact really seems to do for Loptyr/Grima is let them manifest in a host

 

EDIT: adding onto this, I definitely think this is why Intsys is insistent that the deadlords are the same. Same Souls, new host bodies in Awakening. Paying attention I don't think the deadlords are consistent even between 4 and 5, so they definitely swap bodies a lot while being the same souls; thus being what Intsys is likely meaning with the souls (not the bodies themselves) serving Loptyr alone

Ehh, I don't think Loptyr and Grima being the same is true. There are a lot of similarites but one key difference is the Tomes. The Loptyr tome can only be used by those with Major Loptyrian Blood. Grima's Truth, on the other hand, can seemingly be used by anyone. Validar may have Grima blood in him, but considering he wasn't a vessel for Grima, then that must mean the Grima Blood in him wasn't strong enough. Another difference is that Loptyr sought to rule and terrorize. Grima sought to destroy the world. As far as i'm aware, Grima isn't really interested in ruling.

Also, the Deadlords are only the same in name only. Even in Jugdral. For example, Canis is actually a resurrected Sara. Except canonically, every playable character survives unless stated otherwise. Meaning that Sara can't become Canis. Was Sara killed off screen and turned into Canis? Maybe. Except no because her ending states "Sara quietly disappeared after the war. Legends say that she lived a peaceful life under Leif's protection." In other words, she lived peacefully under Leif's protection. So she can't be Canis. So it's very possible that FE4 Canis and FE13 Canis are actually different Deadlords.

4 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Actually, if we do go onto the foresight thing, then that means what Mila said regarding the fate of dragons descending into madness was something that she said Naga knew from the start to mean that Naga DOES have some ability of clairvoyance. But does it extend to multiple futures? Would mean that she gave the Falchion to Duma either because she foresaw what would happen otherwise, or that if she did go that route, she foresaw that Alm would take it to defeat Duma.

I mean, it's possible. Awakening Naga did know what was happening in the Outrealms, that's why she got Chrom and friends to help defeat Grima in the Future Past timeline. And i'm pretty sure the Outrealm Gate is as old as the world itself.

Of course, we don't know if the different Nagas all share the same powers, but considering that Tiki could preform the Awakening, i think it's a safe bet that all Nagas share the same powers.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Armagon said:

I mean, it's possible. Awakening Naga did know what was happening in the Outrealms, that's why she got Chrom and friends to help defeat Grima in the Future Past timeline. And i'm pretty sure the Outrealm Gate is as old as the world itself.

Of course, we don't know if the different Nagas all share the same powers, but considering that Tiki could preform the Awakening, i think it's a safe bet that all Nagas share the same powers.

Oh, so you share Werdna's believe that the Naga in the Future Past is the same Naga from the Awakening world, whereas I believe that Naga is the Future Past's Naga that was killed, but is using whatever power it has left to bring help from another world.

[Armagon]

4 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Oh, so you share Werdna's believe that the Naga in the Future Past is the same Naga from the Awakening world

I guess so.

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

27 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Ehh, I don't think Loptyr and Grima being the same is true. There are a lot of similarites but one key difference is the Tomes. The Loptyr tome can only be used by those with Major Loptyrian Blood. Grima's Truth, on the other hand, can seemingly be used by anyone. Validar may have Grima blood in him, but considering he wasn't a vessel for Grima, then that must mean the Grima Blood in him wasn't strong enough. Another difference is that Loptyr sought to rule and terrorize. Grima sought to destroy the world. As far as i'm aware, Grima isn't really interested in ruling.

Also, the Deadlords are only the same in name only. Even in Jugdral. For example, Canis is actually a resurrected Sara. Except canonically, every playable character survives unless stated otherwise. Meaning that Sara can't become Canis. Was Sara killed off screen and turned into Canis? Maybe. Except no because her ending states "Sara quietly disappeared after the war. Legends say that she lived a peaceful life under Leif's protection." In other words, she lived peacefully under Leif's protection. So she can't be Canis. So it's very possible that FE4 Canis and FE13 Canis are actually different Deadlords.

I mean, it's possible. Awakening Naga did know what was happening in the Outrealms, that's why she got Chrom and friends to help defeat Grima in the Future Past timeline. And i'm pretty sure the Outrealm Gate is as old as the world itself.

Of course, we don't know if the different Nagas all share the same powers, but considering that Tiki could preform the Awakening, i think it's a safe bet that all Nagas share the same powers.

I already factored in everyone surviving in FE5. Even taking that into account the classes and even genders of the generic Deadlords straight up don't match FE4 in a few cases. In fact factoring in everyone surviving is kind of my POINT about FE4 and 5. There's the difference with Canis which exists regardless of whether Sara dies or not, but there's also Draco who no matter WHAT is female in FE5, even if Eveyl is recruited, but Male in FE4 and 13.

what I am saying here is the soul/purpose seems to be the same between the Deadlords and that soul/purpose is said to be specific to Loptyr. So him having the same Deadlords- the souls, roles, whatever- is particularly damning any way you wanna slice it, especially since we opened the can of Grima's body having been destroyed which makes everything click

 

the tome is another thing that is made all the more likely with the context of Awakening because even Falchion lost its power; but it's direct antethisis, the Tome/Book of Naga, completely lost its blood Link like most of the other regalia.

And this isn't factoring in that it could have been forged with different requirements under the new blood pact. Grima's Truth bears the Brand of the Defile whereas the Loptyr tome iirc bears the brand of Loptyr. So they definitely seem to have been made with different rules in mind if Grima's Truth outright didn't just degenerate like literally every other regalia

 

Grima kind of does lord over the future world like Loptyr but the key factor is neither of them quite seem to have ruling as their endgoal, Loptyr included. Loptyr basically wants to enslave humans or destroy them, which when you boil it down is what Grima ends up doing (by turning 90% of them into Risen that are enslaved by force). Grima does the same thing as Loptyr and does so intentionally, just zombie apocalypse style instead of Dark Emperor style. He even EXPLICITLY enslaves the parent units of Awakening in (what is as far as I am aware) Lucina's timeline, which was confirmed by Intsys and later confirmed once more by the Deadlord King Chrom in Cipher being said to hail from Infinite Regalia/Lucina's Timeline

And also the Lopto Sect and Gimle Sect have the same suffix in Japanese, which is a blatant attempt to connect the two in some manner which is lost upon 8-4 just like Naesala the Evil Swan King (I will never forget that translation error, it is everything wrong with bad localization)

Edited April 30, 2017 by Hero of the Fire Emblems

[omegaxis1]

Actually, thinking about it more, I think taking in Naga's clairvoyance ability as a possibility and the space-time powers, and there's actually a possibility that you're right and that the Naga we see in Future Past is the same Naga from the world of Awakening. Here's what I think happened:

When Naga was killed by Grima, she also foresaw the future where Cynthia's group dies to M!Morgan's Risen and thus Gules and Azure are taken, the future where Inigo's group falls to F!Morgan's force and thus Grima takes Sable and Argent, and finally Grima confronting Lucina's group, ultimately killing Lucina and the others and gaining the Fire Emblem and Vert, thus securing his victory for good. That world's Naga had foreseen all of this and at the moment of her death, used whatever remained of her power to send those visions to the Awakening world's Naga. This is why Naga talks as if she knows what was going to happen, and thus sends them to the brink of when the event occurs. 

12 minutes ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

I already factored in everyone surviving in FE5. Even taking that into account the classes and even genders of the generic Deadlords straight up don't match FE4 in a few cases. In fact factoring in everyone surviving is kind of my POINT about FE4 and 5. There's the difference with Canis which exists regardless of whether Sara dies or not, but there's also Draco who no matter WHAT is female in FE5, even if Eveyl is recruited, but Male in FE4 and 13.

Again, why don't we take in the idea that the "insects" that are used to produce these Deadlords ARE those very souls? What if these insects are products of very dark magic and created from 12 people, thus producing 12 insects that contained that soul. The insects then simply attach to a host and those souls possess that person. How the process works exactly, I'm not sure, though. Then that works with what you said, that the Deadlords are the same people in the case of souls, and the continuity-wise case wouldn't break regardless who the host is.

14 minutes ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

the tome is another thing that is made all the more likely with the context of Awakening because even Falchion lost its power; but it's direct antethisis, the stone of Naga, completely lost its blood Link like most of the other regalia.

And this isn't factoring in that it could have been forged with different requirements under the new blood pact. Grima's Truth bears the Brand of the Defile whereas the Loptyr tome iirc bears the brand of Loptyr. So they definitely seem to have been made with different rules in mind if Grima's Truth outright didn't just degenerate like literally every other regalia

My theory on why Falchion's power was sealed is what I mentioned above previously: When Grima started his campaign to destroy the world, starting with the pre-Ylisse continent, but the First Exalt somehow managed to forge a new blood pact with Naga in a new way to add onto the power of Falchion using the Shield of Seals, thus giving Falchion the ability to use the full ability of the Shield of Seals' purpose, which is to seal the threats into a never-ending sleep. So the First Exalt used it and defeated Grima, putting Grima to sleep, but Grima's power was too great and thus he would not sleep forever and would wake up in 1000 years. 

However, the power of sealing into the Falchion came at a price where Falchion's power began to be tied to the Shield of Seals itself. So when the Schism occurred and the Gemstones were scattered, the Falchion in turn also lost its power greatly, the seal ability working in reverse, and thus lose the full power it once had because of its new sealing function. 

The blade was still strong, and thus would still not age or dull, but it could not unleash the full force of Naga's might that it could during Marth's time and before that.

That's if to say that Grima's Truth, while holding some of Grima's power, isn't merely an imitation. Unlike Loptyr, Grima had no mention to place his power into the book, and for all we know, Grima's Truth is just an imitation of Grima's Expiration. So in that regard, we cannot say for certain that Loptyr's Tome and Grima's Truth are the same. 

24 minutes ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

Grima kind of does lord over the future world like Loptyr but the key factor is neither of them quite seem to have ruling as their endgoal, Loptyr included. Loptyr basically wants to enslave humans or destroy them, which when you boil it down is what Grima ends up doing (by turning 90% of them into Risen that are enslaved by force). Grima does the same thing as Loptyr, just zombie apocalypse style.

We know that Loptyr's intentions is nothing more than to terrorize and exact vengeance on humanity. Naga says that Grima only seeks to add to his own power. All Grima craves is power and does wishes to continue destroying and move onto the next one. 

 

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

47 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

We know that Loptyr's intentions is nothing more than to terrorize and exact vengeance on humanity. Naga says that Grima only seeks to add to his own power. All Grima craves is power and does wishes to continue destroying and move onto the next one. 

 

So Loptyr wants to expand his empire for the express purpose of gaining more power to terrorize humanity and Grima does the same to also terrorize and lord over humanity as Risen, causing an apocalypse which Lucina has to be the Sileph of.

 

.......This is kind of my point about it; their goals are basically identical with different methods of going about it. They want to enslave humanity through literal enslavement and zombie apocalypse, respectively, and are constantly expanding their influence in doing so. And there's little to suggest there isn't some sort of connection, whatever it may be, once we factor in Grima is confirmed by Intsys to be an earth dragon and has already burned through at least one, possibly two bodies already and beyond that takes a human host (in fact, seeming to PREFER a host for some reason; possibly a loophole around degeneration?) through a blood pact. He doesn't revive straight as in the Medeus school of methodology; he seems intent on reviving in the body of a human (the avatar) for reasons unknown.

 

Grima also has the telltale loathing of Naga and a curious predilection for tormenting and killing humans with extreme prejudice

Edited April 30, 2017 by Hero of the Fire Emblems

[Salamud]

I recommend holding off on saying Grima is Loptyr until we get a remake of Genealogy of the Holy War. We don't how much of the current backstory still holds post-Awakening. 

[RJWalker]

Naga transferred all power and will into the tome. I don't know how many times I've had to repeat this but this is fact. All power and will. Whether you believe it or not is irrelevant because the fact that Naga transferred all power and will, depite having reservations about having to do so, remains unchanged.

[Armagon]

10 minutes ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

So Loptyr wants to expand his empire for the express purpose of gaining more power to terrorize humanity

Except the Loptyrian Empire was just confined to Jugdral. If he wanted to expand his empire, then why didn't he? He had two centuries to do so.

11 minutes ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

once we factor in Grima is confirmed by Intsys to be an earth dragon

Or that the dragon corpses used in Grima's creation were of Earth Dragon origin. Because c'mon, not only was there a war that basically wiped out the Divine Dragons save for a few, dragons also aren't immortal. They can live a hell of a long time (see: Bantu) but they'll all die at some point. Hell, there's a graveyard for Fire Dragons. If they can have a graveyard, then Earth Dragons can too.

16 minutes ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

possibly two bodies already and beyond that takes a human host (in fact, seeming to PREFER a host for some reason; possibly a loophole around degeneration?) through a blood pact. He doesn't revive straight as in the Medeus school of methodology; he seems intent on reviving in the body of a human (the avatar) for reasons unknown.

Well, regarding the Avatar, Grima was making sure that the original timeline kept flowing. This is why he revived Validar after he was killed during the failed assassination attempt on Emmeryn. Actually, that's another thing that says Grima isn't Loptyr: the fact that he can revive the dead, and i don't mean undead corpses like the Deadlords. I'm talking complete resurrection. Anyways, Grima did make a blood pact, but with who, we don't know. Since Grima first wrecked havoc 1000 years prior to Awakening, it couldn't have been with Forenus, unless Forenus made like a life-extending potion or something (considering that he made Grima, i wouldn't doubt it). Although actually

Spoiler

I'm gonna take a guess and say that humanoid face is Forenus. After all, Forenus did give his blood to Grima. So maybe Forenus was the person Grima made a blood pact with after all.

 

[omegaxis1]

3 minutes ago, Ranger Jack Walker said:

Naga transferred all power and will into the tome. I don't know how many times I've had to repeat this but this is fact. All power and will. Whether you believe it or not is irrelevant because the fact that Naga transferred all power and will, depite having reservations about having to do so, remains unchanged.

Dude, whatever. I don't really care at this point. I even acknowledge that Loptyr and Naga are equals.

But that doesn't mean I'll change my stance in everything else I view in the case, where Naga's life was crippled from the war with the dragons, the creation of Falchion and Shield of Seals, and then fighting Loptyr, and thus made her ultimately die an early death. Naga didn't create another Falchion in Jugdral despite how its the strongest weapon because she physically wasn't capable of it, so she made a tome that held all her powers instead, which rivals Falchion's might. 

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

25 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Except the Loptyrian Empire was just confined to Jugdral. If he wanted to expand his empire, then why didn't he? He had two centuries to do so.

Or that the dragon corpses used in Grima's creation were of Earth Dragon origin. Because c'mon, not only was there a war that basically wiped out the Divine Dragons save for a few, dragons also aren't immortal. They can live a hell of a long time (see: Bantu) but they'll all die at some point. Hell, there's a graveyard for Fire Dragons. If they can have a graveyard, then Earth Dragons can too.

Well, regarding the Avatar, Grima was making sure that the original timeline kept flowing. This is why he revived Validar after he was killed during the failed assassination attempt on Emmeryn. Actually, that's another thing that says Grima isn't Loptyr: the fact that he can revive the dead, and i don't mean undead corpses like the Deadlords. I'm talking complete resurrection. Anyways, Grima did make a blood pact, but with who, we don't know. Since Grima first wrecked havoc 1000 years prior to Awakening, it couldn't have been with Forenus, unless Forenus made like a life-extending potion or something (considering that he made Grima, i wouldn't doubt it). Although actually

  Reveal hidden contents

I'm gonna take a guess and say that humanoid face is Forenus. After all, Forenus did give his blood to Grima. So maybe Forenus was the person Grima made a blood pact with after all.

 

The fact that Forenus pumped Divine Dragon blood (which by the way explains why Grima can use the Binding Shield to help empower and revive himself) into Grima definitely suggests that he was giving whatever he was making enhancements. The fact that Loptyr can revive the dead if resurrected as Grima can be, and so far generally has been, directly attributed to Forenus, and it might be possible Forenus started the Blood Pact of the Defiler assuming he had children to carry on the bloodline that results in Validar and Avatar. The fact that Grima can revive the dead as a result of Forenus's freaky experiments PLUS him pumping Divine Dragon blood in seems to lean more on Forenus having an end goal and goes back to Forenus being Neo Loptyrian- it doesn't go against it, but rather goes for it with the context of where it originates from.

 

Theres also the issue that Jugdral may very well be an upside down Tellius; which if true, factoring in the Archanea/Valentina calanders, would mean Jugdral is literally the only largely human inhabited continent at that point if memory serves presuming Elibe and Magvel is an alternate continuity.

Edited April 30, 2017 by Hero of the Fire Emblems

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

The fact that Forenus pumped Divine Dragon blood (which by the way explains why Grima can use the Binding Shield to help empower and revive himself) into Grima definitely suggests that he was giving whatever he was making enhancements. The fact that Loptyr can revive the dead if resurrected as Grima can be, and so far generally has been, directly attributed to Forenus, and it might be possible Forenus started the Blood Pact of the Defiler assuming he had children to carry on the bloodline that results in Validar and Avatar. The fact that Grima can revive the dead as a result of Forenus's freaky experiments PLUS him pumping Divine Dragon blood in seems to lean more on Forenus having an end goal and goes back to Forenus being Neo Loptyrian- it doesn't go against it, but rather goes for it with the context of where it originates from.

Wait a second... are YOU the on that's been editing the wiki and saying that Forneus founded the Grimleal? 

But yeah, I do agree that Forneus might be the ancestor of Validar and Robin. If it was his blood that was mixed in with Grima, then its likely the pact was forged there. But this is the weird thing as Grima is the one receiving the pact more, rather than the other way. 

The Jugdral series shows that the dragons give the humans their blood. Instead we see Grima being the one receiving blood.