Why are natures so serious business?

[r4v1sh]

15 minutes ago, Vaximillian said:

I am sure it is a pretty unpopular opinion, but I don't really want them to add ways to reroll assets and flaws.

3 minutes ago, Arcanite said:

I actually agree with you on this one.

Me three. I love my -Spd, how could I ever tell them they're imperfect kids?!

Seriously now, I just love when I find like an Ephraim I can't one shot, because someone is actually running +Res, A-Fury Eph! That's part of what makes this game fun :D

 

[Hawk King]

4 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

The people I talk about that throw away 5 stars aren't even in the 4500 point range.

For points from 0-4400, my point is that natures are being focused on when it isn't even the deciding factor in their game.

Ok, I've never really had any trouble getting into the top 30,000 in any season. For people that struggle to crack the top 100k, you're totally right.

When I only had two or three 5* units, I found ways to make them work and get wins. Despite their sub-optimal natures.

Anyone who can't get a 7 win streak or score more than 4500 points really shouldn't blame their bad natures. They just need to work on their strategy. The A.I. really isn't that hard to beat.

[Arcanite]

8 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

True, however at the lower levels of the arena, how bad are natures going to screw you with the same character moreso than how you played?

I can agree with you on this one.

Some people aren't so good at the game, while others are really good at the game. A couple people have used other people's arena teams and get deathless runs for them because they couldn't do it themselves

-----------------------------------------------------

There is one more thing that matters a lot with natures. And that's builds in general. No one is gonna build a Quadsuna with -Spd aren't they? So that's where I think natures matter THE MOST. You can't make a unit nuts if there's no point.

[shadowofchaos]

6 minutes ago, Arcanite said:

There is one more thing that matters a lot with natures. And that's builds in general. No one is gonna build a Quadsuna with -Spd aren't they? So that's where I think natures matter THE MOST. You can't make a unit nuts if there's no point.

But do those builds matter when you get feathers for non ranking points anyway?

The major point with this thread is that people who aren't even ranking don't have the luxury of throwing away five star units as useless when they don't even know how to use builds to optimize their points in the arena in the first place.

I find it akin to a child getting what they wanted with a present from a relative and then finding a single flaw that doesn't make the best thing ever and dismissing it.

I will agree with Spd being a major nature factor. As it relatively doubles your damage or reduced it by half.

Also, haha.

I do arena runs for my fiancé all the time. Lazy princess. I love you @Bindi

Edited May 5, 2017 by shadowofchaos

[MrSmokestack]

It's a luxury. Bad stat rolls can be compensated for with stat buffs in the majority of cases, at least one of which is readily available via Sharena; combat alone doesn't make or break units.

The only truly bad stat roll I find the vast majority of the time is -Atk, especially on a Brave unit, since they usually have poor stats in everything else to compensate for their "unit ceiling". Mages are a bit more fortunate in being able to take Raven Adept to fix their damage while also giving their bulk a boost. A negative in a defense stat on a defensive unit rarely matters except in niche cases where they would have avoided getting one-rounded, but you can compensate by playing differently to keep those situations from occuring in the first place. Most of the time, taking a negative in a defensive stat is ideal or at least far from a worst-case scenario--think +HP -Def. That kind of roll doesn't really affect how the unit plays at all at lower levels of arena or just playing missions casually.

-Spd can be harmful on units sitting in a crowded speed tier, like Takumi or Ryoma, but fortunately they specifically can be played in other ways that don't necessarily involve wiping the entire enemy team. Also, Weaponbreakers and Quick Riposte.

F2P can't afford dropping 5* units they don't like or have "poor" stat rolls, since there aren't many of those to go around to begin with.

Spoiler

A̶l̶s̶o̶,̶ ̶I̶ ̶l̶i̶k̶e̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶r̶ ̶b̶a̶i̶t̶.̶

 

[HK Motendra]

Particularly because of this is kinda why I tend to stay away from the arena, and only do so at all, just to gain some amount of feathers, come season's end. At best, I just want to reach the individual ceiling that nets me 2500 feathers, by getting a score of over 4k and call it a day for that season, but with some of the teams I end up facing sometimes, I end up giving up, cause I aint have that kinda time (or battery life) to dedicate to a mobile game.

Unless a voting gauntlet is underway, that's pretty much my only reliable way to gain a good amount of feathers, which because of this, is how I've only ever been able to promote 2 units to 5 star (at the end of each gauntlet). Then again, there was a period in time where I didn't even know feathers were being awarded for playing Arena, so there is that as well

[shadowofchaos]

4 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

  Reveal hidden contents

A̶l̶s̶o̶,̶ ̶I̶ ̶l̶i̶k̶e̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶r̶ ̶b̶a̶i̶t̶.̶

 

Spoiler

I actually hope the 2 people that other people assume I'm talking about don't show up.

In Ryouma's case, even at -spd he still has distant counter and will probably be doubling greens anyway.

Swordbreaker kills speedy reds that he can't double. And he should be staying away from high speed mage ranges anyway like Tharja or Linde until he can get up in their faces or can vantage kill them.

Edited May 5, 2017 by shadowofchaos

[BANRYU]

If you're F2P I agree that it's basically a luxury. Personally I'm inclined to use my favorites regardless of their natures; case in point, I have several pretty optimal natures for Horsemblem characters (Reinhardt, Eliwood namely), though I'm opting to use my largely infantry-heavy favorites, most of whom have middling or mediocre natures (probably the best of these is +Def/-Spd Robin? others include stuff like +HP Tiki/Kagero, +Def/-HP Camilla and so forth). 

So yeah, uh... I dunno. Picky people playing free, that's their loss I guess? lol. I guess knowing what a difference it can make in the arena is what drives people to shoot for that stuff. At the very least, knowing your nature at least lets you know what a unit is capable of. 

Edited May 5, 2017 by BANRYU

[MrSmokestack]

55 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

  Reveal hidden contents

I actually hope the 2 people that other people assume I'm talking about don't show up.

 

Spoiler

There's two? News to me.

Shhhhhhh. Don't say.

This thread is a minefield.

Edited May 5, 2017 by MrSmokestack

[Arcanite]

2 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

But do those builds matter when you get feathers for non ranking points anyway?

Yes

Yes they do

I know you gave 0-4,400 as a reference point, but let's go with 0-4,000 for this particular example

4,000 is the maximum amount you can get for non-ranking feathers. Which means one would get 2,500 per week (bar defense wins) for their offense points. That would take EIGHT weeks before you reach 20,000 assuming no quests or anything like that. But getting just 500 (3,000 p/w) more gets you 18k feathers on week 6. So how does one get more points? Using 5 star units, and making sure all skill slots are full. 

One can say "You can just use any random skill to fill a slot". But "any random skill" isn't going to help you when a Nino is about to kill your Hector and you wanted to give him Poison strike instead of vantage

How this has to do with natures? Well if I'm going to sacrifice my one and only Hinata on a unit, it better be a good one [nature]. I could make a fury Lyn, I could make a fury Sharena, but I can also make a fury Nino. Why Nino? Nino is +Atk -Def, Lyn is +HP -Def, and sharena is neutral.

Nino can also take a hit from Takumi, AND kill in return. Lyn can do the same, but Nino can OHKO effies, One round hectors, all that kind of stuff.

And now Nino has fury :D

16 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

I find it akin to a child getting what they wanted with a present from a relative and then finding a single flaw that doesn't make the best thing ever and dismissing it.

Depends on your motivation for throwing it away.

1. I'm throwing them away because I don't like them

2. I'm throwing them away because they won't help me

 

3. I'm throwing them away because someone else needs their skills more and I already have someone else who fills this niche

[GespenstMK2S]

As a F2P player, I don't really care about natures of my 5* units. They are rare to come by as is.

However, for 4* and below, I only pick units with favourable/neutral natures to train up (unless they happen to be favourites, or I need them to complete quests). There is a much higher chance of pulling 4* and below as dupes, so I feel that I have the leeway to cherry-pick here.

[MrSmokestack]

30 minutes ago, Arcanite said:

4,000 is the maximum amount you can get for non-ranking feathers. Which means one would get 2,500 per week (bar defense wins) for their offense points. That would take EIGHT weeks before you reach 20,000 assuming no quests or anything like that. But getting just 500 (3,000 p/w) more gets you 18k feathers on week 6. So how does one get more points? Using 5 star units, and making sure all skill slots are full. 

One can say "You can just use any random skill to fill a slot". But "any random skill" isn't going to help you when a Nino is about to kill your Hector and you wanted to give him Poison strike instead of vantage

How this has to do with natures? Well if I'm going to sacrifice my one and only Hinata on a unit, it better be a good one [nature]. I could make a fury Lyn, I could make a fury Sharena, but I can also make a fury Nino. Why Nino? Nino is +Atk -Def, Lyn is +HP -Def, and sharena is neutral.

Nino can also take a hit from Takumi, AND kill in return. Lyn can do the same, but Nino can OHKO effies, One round hectors, all that kind of stuff.

Depends on your motivation for throwing it away.

1. I'm throwing them away because I don't like them

2. I'm throwing them away because they won't help me

3. I'm throwing them away because someone else needs their skills more and I already have someone else who fills this niche

But then you're using your resources correctly. You've done your due diligence.

What if your Nino was -Atk? Who do you give your Fury fodder to, then? Sharena, I hope, because in this situation she would be the next best choice.

Only #3 is a legitimate reason to send a unit home. #1 flaunts ignorance and #2 is short-sighted if we are talking about F2P. Then again, #3 is just #2 but better-written.

Spoiler

You forgot a fourth reason.

Spoiler

My barracks are close to full and I've bought all the extra slots.

 

 

Edited May 5, 2017 by MrSmokestack

[Zapp Branniglenn]

My son is -Atk and I couldn't be prouder. I thought it was weird at first that he hung out with the other -Atk boys but now I leave my labels at the door.

I don't dismiss natures as being useless, but I will admit that part of the reason I focused on promoting my starter lords first is because I don't have to worry about pulling them as 5 stars with better natures. Same with GHB units. But the primary reason I promote these guys is always just that I can't pull them randomly as 5 stars later.

[shadowofchaos]

8 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

  Hide contents

You forgot a fourth reason.

  Hide contents

My barracks are close to full and I've bought all the extra slots.

 

 

Asd freaking ffffff. Ice dragooon.

That reason is like... the most jealousy inducing type of reason.

Edited May 5, 2017 by shadowofchaos

[MrSmokestack]

Just now, shadowofchaos said:

Asd freaking ffffff. Ice dragooon.

@Ice Dragon

It's done. How bad does managing your units get when your barracks are maxed out?

[Arcanite]

16 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

What if your Nino was -Atk? Who do you give your Fury fodder to, then? Sharena, I hope, because in this situation she would be the next best choice.

I see you've come to state the obvious

16 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

Only #3 is a legitimate reason to send a unit home. #1 flaunts ignorance and #2 is short-sighted if we are talking about F2P. Then again, #3 is just #2 but better-written.

I kind of know that #3 is a legitimate reason.

The whole point of the list was to say "not all reasons are akin to a child" but some of them are. 

Now with #2, you're straight out sending someone home because you don't need it which is an Easy 1,000 feathers (assuming 5 star), as opposed to using them for skills in number three

maybe I could have been more specific but whatever XD

7 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

@Ice Dragon

It's done. How bad does managing your units get when your barracks are maxed out?

there's merging. Which means you can have 11 of one unit churned into one, mega unit

which means 500 max roster is turned into 5,500 units.

that's actually pretty crazy when I think about it XD

Edited May 5, 2017 by Arcanite

[MrSmokestack]

15 minutes ago, Arcanite said:

Now with #2, you're straight out sending someone home because you don't need it which is an Easy 1,000 feathers (assuming 5 star), as opposed to using them for skills in number three

And now we're back to square one.

If you're sending a unit home for feathers because you don't need them, chances are you haven't found a good use for them yet. You never know what might happen in the future where said unit could actually be useful or even needed. At a minimum, you should never send the free units from the Daily Hero Battles home, because you need them for quests in the future.

Spoiler

Defiant Res Virion tho

 

Quote

there's merging. Which means you can have 11 of one unit churned into one, mega unit which means 500 max roster is turned into 5,500 units. that's actually pretty crazy when I think about it XD

I̶ ̶d̶o̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶k̶n̶o̶w̶ ̶a̶b̶o̶u̶t̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶b̶u̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶'̶s̶ ̶a̶ ̶l̶o̶t̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶3̶*̶ ̶N̶i̶l̶e̶s̶ ̶+̶1̶0̶s̶

Edited May 5, 2017 by MrSmokestack

[Fruity Insanity]

I die a little inside every time I look at my -Spd/+Res Ryoma.

I normally don't care too much about IVs, but having a speed bane on what's supposed to be a speedy character sucks.

I'd use Ike over him, but he's -Atk, so ٩( ᐛ )و

Breaking 4.8k is a bit difficult with sub-optimal IVs, though, I'd say.

[Arcanite]

4 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

If you're sending a unit home for feathers because you don't need them, chances are you haven't found a good use for them yet. You never know what might happen in the future where said unit could actually be useful or even needed.

I'm going to use my Marth instead of my Ryoma because there is a sudden resurgence of Manaketes in the arena and Ryoma's distant counter is useless

Anywho, this is "Why natures are serious business" and not "Why should I send a unit home", so I'm going to leave it at that

10 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Defiant Res Virion tho

 

I never looked up Virion's stats before you said this

Spoiler

 

>Defiant Res

>13 Res at 5 star neutral

I mean, at least he has 46 health at neutral too but geez, when Neutral attack 5 star Male Robin with T-Adept does 43 damage, I don't really see how +7 res is gonna help you with 3 HP left......

 

 

[shadowofchaos]

3 minutes ago, Fruity Insanity said:

I die a little inside every time I look at my -Spd/+Res Ryoma.

I normally don't care too much about IVs, but having a speed bane on what's supposed to be a speedy character sucks.

I'd use Ike over him, but he's -Atk, so ٩( ᐛ )و

Breaking 4.8k is a bit difficult with sub-optimal IVs, though, I'd say.

Here's the question: With a 7 deathless run, would it really affect your score ceiling?

Since, nature (stop saying IV) doesn't affect how you're matched.

[Florete]

Losing Atk is a bad sign for pretty much any unit, and losing Spd can also be pretty serious if the unit depends on doubling (conversely, gaining in these can be very helpful). HP, Def, and Res generally aren't significant, though Def can be.

[shadowofchaos]

1 minute ago, Florete said:

Losing Atk is a bad sign for pretty much any unit, and losing Spd can also be pretty serious if the unit depends on doubling (conversely, gaining in these can be very helpful). HP, Def, and Res generally aren't significant, though Def can be.

The way I see it, natures are the RNG growth mechanic for previous FE games.

This, again, is in the context of higher level play in the arena.

[Vaximillian]

5 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

Here's the question: With a 7 deathless run, would it really affect your score ceiling?

Since, nature (stop saying IV) doesn't affect how you're matched.

It affects your units' performance, which leads to making completing a streak easier or harder.

>The way I see it, natures are the RNG growth mechanic for previous FE games.

I do the same. Which is why I'm fine with them existing.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Vaximillian

[Fruity Insanity]

Just now, shadowofchaos said:

Here's the question: With a 7 deathless run, would it really affect your score ceiling?

Since, nature (stop saying IV) doesn't affect how you're matched.

Well, no, it doesn't match the score ceiling, but why use a -Spd Ryoma is basically what I'm saying.

You use him to go fast, kill fast, and having -Spd/+Res doesn't really help him accomplish that. You still kill Nino and Julia, and you still easily die to Linde or Reinhardt regardless. So if you can do that. So you may as well have some other boon/bane to help with the borderline cases, like enemy sword infantry and whatnot. He might be able to duel someone like Lucina if he isn't -Spd, but I can't fight her with only 32 spd (especially since all the Lucina's I face are merged at least a few times or have Fury 3).

Not that a -Spd Ryoma is unusable. Just not an optimal use of one of your four slots.

[Florete]

1 minute ago, shadowofchaos said:

The way I see it, natures are the RNG growth mechanic for previous FE games.

This, again, is in the context of higher level play in the arena.

Yes. Anyone who cares about them probably plays the arena a lot, at least I would imagine.

As a personal example, +atk would have been very nice for my Hector to have, and I'm not saying that just cuz; my arena team is him, Anna, Sharena, and Lyn. Hector is responsible for most ranged enemies, the most common of which tends be Nino, whom very commonly have Fury. He has 53 atk and they often fall into the 54-56 HP+Def range. He needs to kill them in one hit or he dies, and +atk would get me almost all of them. Sharena has Rally Attack, which helps to cover more range, but on occasions these Ninos do get a bit stronger.

My Hector is -HP, which I at first thought was bad, but is ironically turning out good because Anna has 41 HP and Reciprocal Aid, which allows Hector to get back over the 80% threshold for Armads' Quick Riposte 2. Neutral or +HP would make this impossible.