Why are natures so serious business?

[shadowofchaos]

Like I get that people want nice things for setups and stuff...

But do natures REALLY matter in the grand scope of things if you're not in the upper tiers/competitive point range in the arena?

I mean, besides "higher level play", it's basically a luxury, right? I've seen people that obviously aren't super competitive in the arena, dismiss 5 stars as relatively useless in multiple places simply because of a nature that will give a 4 stat boost/detriment at level 40.

Like, this isn't even direct PvP.

F2P people who do this that I've seen sound pretty spoiled.

[De Geso]

6 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

Like I get that people want nice things for setups and stuff...

But do natures REALLY matter in the grand scope of things if you're not in the upper tiers/competitive point range in the arena?

I mean, besides "higher level play", it's basically a luxury, right? I've seen people that obviously aren't super competitive in the arena, dismiss 5 stars as relatively useless in multiple places simply because of a nature that will give a 4 stat boost/detriment at level 40.

Like, this isn't even direct PvP.

F2P people who do this that I've seen sound pretty spoiled.

I've been wondering this as well. I didn't even bother checking natures til recently because there are few stat benchmarks that units don't hit either way, and it isn't like arena is super serious beans to begin with. 

If you're a massive whale and have 20 of every hero, fine, but I don't think it's worth it to be choosy when you only have 1...Hector, for example. Sure, +Def or something (I have no idea what is optimal) would be cool but he can still get the job done regardless. 

[Magical Glace]

Things like the Rezzy curse can be annoying, sure, but ultimately you have to work with what you've got.

[Korath88]

I don't really care about natures as long as I can pull the characters I like.

However, Naga has blessed me with the +Spd -Res so I'm rolling with it for now.

[GuiltyLove]

Because people want to be important by bragging about getting good units

[dragonlordsd]

15 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

Like I get that people want nice things for setups and stuff...

But do natures REALLY matter in the grand scope of things if you're not in the upper tiers/competitive point range in the arena?

I mean, besides "higher level play", it's basically a luxury, right? I've seen people that obviously aren't super competitive in the arena, dismiss 5 stars as relatively useless in multiple places simply because of a nature that will give a 4 stat boost/detriment at level 40.

Like, this isn't even direct PvP.

F2P people who do this that I've seen sound pretty spoiled.

The short answer is that 90% of the time, natures don't matter at all.

for example, almost no hector is better than another, just because there are so many different situations he has to deal with.

a -res +att hector is vulnerable to Reinhardt, while a +res -att one isn't. A +spd hector gets four points of spd, rather than 3, and can be safe from a number of slower characters, like Ike, and -spd ryoma.

so, generally, there is no difference.

that said, there are some exceptions. A -spd +att Reinhardt, for example, is significantly better than the reverse, because reinhardts speed is useless, while his brave effect doubles his attack.

[Lord_Grima]

I just like to know, and then I can try working to that character's weaknesses/ strengths. I'll still use that unit even if it isn't "optimal". I haven't done any area matches in while, so I don't really care how my natures do against others.

I think people think they need the best nature, otherwise their character is worthless. They have an idea in their mind of the character with the perfect nature and skillset, but once they get the character with the wrong nature they think their build will not work, so they don't want that character they pulled.

[Hawk King]

31 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

But do natures REALLY matter in the grand scope of things if you're not in the upper tiers/competitive point range in the arena?

The thing is that everyone uses the arena every week, and everyone wants to score as high as possible. Unfortunately, some Boons and Banes make heroes not worth replacing ones that are already on their teams. Especially when they would otherwise be huge improvements.

The majority of the time when it matters a lot is when you really want/need a +Spd to be competitively viable and you end up with -Spd. Especially when the the variation is a 4 and a 3. A difference of 6 or 7 in Spd is a big deal. A good example is Takumi. Before I got some really good counters to him, +Spd (36) always gave me a ton of trouble because I had no one who could 1RKO him, but -Spd (30) were fairly easy to deal with because I could kill them much more easily. 

Another time it matters is when getting -Atk on Brave type weapon users. It ends up being a difference of 12 or 14 points of damage (24 or 28 if you are doubling). When a heroes sole niche in the meta is being able to Remove threats without facing a counter attack (Cherche, Reinhardt, Klein) and a -Atk prevents them from doing that, then yeah, they become essentially useless.

Although skill inheritance has made it so they can at the very least pass on what makes them good to other heroes who can take advantage of those tools.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

"You mean I could have something with better X? I MUST HAVE IT"

In a nutshell.

Outside the competitive aspect though, there's a few times here and there when it actually does make a difference to have a bane in your most important stat like -ATK when you're using Brave weapons.

Additionally, knowledge that you could've had X in order to change the outcome of Y can be pretty infuriating. Let's say you're dealing with a bunch of normal speed Hectors and your Brave Sword user fails to deal with him efficiently due to the -ATK bane or even worse, cannot 4x attack because the -SPD bane is the deciding factor in this. 

"Natures" shouldn't have been implement but it's without a doubt an intricacy they could've tossed in the game to tempt consumers to spend more money so of course it's in.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Dr. Tarrasque

[L9999]

If there are optimal natures to use a character to its full potential it is a logical feeling that you want those, even if you aren't very competitive losing because some numbers were off doesn't feel good,and it feels like a slap in the face to have a character to be gimped in its best attribute or worst weakness and having a buff to a useless stat.

[Arcanite]

17 minutes ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

"You mean I could have something with better X? I MUST HAVE IT"

In a nutshell.

Not exactly,

@shadowofchaos it's not that "Oh I need the best"

It's basically like this:

"My Nino couldn't kill ____ because her speed is too low. If she wasn't -Spd, I would've won this match"

"If my Hector wasn't -Atk, he could've killed _____ on the counter, but he didn't. Now I have to redo my deathless run"

+3 or -3 to a stat in a numbers game means a lot. In fact, neutral hector deals 19 damage to my Lyn, but because she's +Hp, she doesn't get to go into defiance and that has screwed me many a times.

But I am free to play and I still have all of my stars with me, the good natures and the bad ones :P

Edited May 5, 2017 by Arcanite

[shadowofchaos]

12 minutes ago, Hawk King said:

The thing is that everyone uses the arena every week, and everyone wants to score as high as possible. Unfortunately, some Boons and Banes make heroes not worth replacing ones that are already on their teams. Especially when they would otherwise be huge improvements.

Three 5 stars and a 4 star with a 7 deathless run gives an average of 4.6-4.7k at this point. Putting people at 2500 feathers every week at least from point bonuses and being ranked in the top 50k.

Regardless of nature, those stats that put you in the range of how you are marched stay the same.

The difference is how many arena crests you spend getting a 7 deathless run.

So, as you say: Replacing the hero you already trained unless it gives a huge improvement really don't have that much of an impact.

Especially since you have to SP train them all over again if you had SI on the good unit you had.

Edited May 5, 2017 by shadowofchaos

[MaskedAmpharos]

I will certainly agree that in the majority of cases, nature is pretty irrelevant as you survive the same things and secure most of the same important ORKOs regardless. There are occasional Arena matches that you lose that you would have won if the only thing different was that you had a different nature, but those scenarios are few and far in between and can usually be made up for with smarter strategizing. 

There are certain strategies that only work with specific natures though, even outside of competitive Arena. My Reinhardt wouldn't have been able to OHKO Lunatic Zephiel in the strategy I used if he weren't +Atk, for example, which would have made my plan considerably more difficult to pull off.

In the end though, I will concede that in the majority of cases, nature isn't too important. A -Atk Eirika still buffs her allies just as well, and a Nino that isn't +Atk or +Spd still manages to ORKO almost everything in the game. It just makes me really sad to see people forego certain characters just because of their nature when that nature barely impedes them. 

[shadowofchaos]

3 minutes ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

In the end though, I will concede that in the majority of cases, nature isn't too important. A -Atk Eirika still buffs her allies just as well, and a Nino that isn't +Atk or +Spd still manages to ORKO almost everything in the game. It just makes me really sad to see people forego certain characters just because of their nature when that nature barely impedes them. 

I've seen many cases of the last thing you said on reddit, YouTube comments sections, etc.

But you probably already know the one on this forum that embodies the mentality.

Edited May 5, 2017 by shadowofchaos

[Sentacotus]

The only way I see it impacting anything is say a 5 star vs a 5 star with near identical stats then the natures coming into play.  Other than that I can't really see it impacting things too much.

[r4v1sh]

I guess most of time time nature is more like a luxury than something absolutely necessary. But not all the time.

I think the best case-scenario to describe this is when you roll +spd/-spd natures... if you check the listing of every character stats, you will see that this 6-7 point variation between both natures makes a world of difference, as a ton of characters in the game gets stuck in the mid thirties of this attribute. This means that this character may have advantage or disadvantage against a lot of matchups based solely on this stat variation, and, in turn, tells you what weakness need to cover for with skills.

Attributes such as HP and RES may not make such a difference, but even attack and defense changing natures can mean a lot. In the end, there are characters who live and die bye their natures (speedy guys; brave weapon users; etc), and there are characters who don't really care about it. But sure enough, as long as you're not stuck with a nature that's directly detrimental to your characters matchups, you can roll with it.

Edited May 5, 2017 by r4v1sh

[shadowofchaos]

3 minutes ago, r4v1sh said:

I guess most of time time nature is more like a luxury than something absolutely necessary. But not all the time.

I think the best case-scenario to describe this is when you roll +spd/-spd natures... if you check the listing of every character stats, you will see that this 6-7 point variation between both natures makes a world of difference, as a ton of characters in the game gets stuck in the mid thirties of this attribute. This means that this character may have advantage or disadvantage against a lot of matchups based solely on this stat variation, and, in turn, tells you what weakness need to cover for with skills.

Attributes such as HP and RES may not make such a difference, but even attack and defense changing natures can mean a lot. In the end, there are characters who live and die bye their natures (speedy guys; brave weapon users; etc), and there are characters who don't really care about it. But sure enough, as long as you're not stuck with a nature that's directly detrimental to your characters matchups, you can roll with it.

In the end, the points you get in the arena are the same when you have the same character. Since any detriment gets replaced by a boon in another stat.

In most cases, when the person is *not* in the top 10k rankings, this really will not matter. The only thing that will matter is the ease of getting that 7 deathless run.

That includes using a character with a detrimental nature to their build.

[r4v1sh]

1 minute ago, shadowofchaos said:

In the end, the points you get in the arena are the same when you have the same character. Since any detriment gets replaced by a boon in another stat.

In most cases, when the person is *not* in the top 10k rankings, this really will not matter. The only thing that will matter is the ease of getting that 7 deathless run.

That includes using a character with a detrimental nature to their build.

Oh yeah. You're right about that.
I'd even say that, as long as you have OP characters, natures get even less relevant, as, as far as Arena goes, you will probably be able to do a 7-run regardless. But at least when I was a rookie (I got really bad rolls at the start), I lived and died by two +atk units (4*Robin and 4*Abel). This stat variation was what kept me able to counter reds and takumi-emblem somewhat. I'd barely be able to reach 4 in the arena without them.

[Elieson]

Idk about you, but an extra 3+3 damage (or 6+6 even) when running braves is a big deal to me. Thats an easy 25% of someone's health in many cases, if not more, and running say, -Atk vs +Atk can turn a super fun and practical even 

[shadowofchaos]

2 minutes ago, r4v1sh said:

Oh yeah. You're right about that.
I'd even say that, as long as you have OP characters, natures get even less relevant, as, as far as Arena goes, you will probably be able to do a 7-run regardless. But at least when I was a rookie (I got really bad rolls at the start), I lived and died by two +atk units (4*Robin and 4*Abel). This stat variation was what kept me able to counter reds and takumi-emblem somewhat. I'd barely be able to reach 4 in the arena without them.

Your score is pretty much what you wanted it to be.

Via strategic prowess or spamming crests.

Setups are when it matters. But at the end of the day, your ranking ceiling isn't determined by the natures. It's by your star rank, deathless run, and skill inheritance.

At the end of the day, unless you're in a high risk situation in high level play, natures aren't worth being the sole reason of throwing a 5 star character away, calling them useless, or benching them until you can SI them away.

[Hawk King]

5 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

Three 5 stars and a 4 star with a 7 deathless run gives an average of 4.6-4.7k at this point. Putting people at 2500 feathers every week at least from point bonuses and being ranked in the top 50k.

Regardless of nature, those stats that put you in the range of how yiu are marched stay the same.

The difference is how many arena crests you spend getting a 7 deathless run.

So, as you say: Replacing the hero you already trained unless it gives a huge improvement really don't have that much of an impact.

Especially since you have to SP train them all over again if you had SI on the good unit you had.

For the past few weeks, the difference between 4700 and 4800 has been like 30,000 spots. So even just improving your score by 20-30 points can take you up quite a bit.

It's not so much replacing a character you are already using with a better one of the same weapon type. If your team is having trouble with Reinhardts and you have no good green mages to deal with him, you might want a Nino to deal with him. However, a -Res Nino will still get 1HKOed by Reinhardts so there would be no point in training her up. Or you only have no ranged attacking units on your team and neutral and +spd Takumis give you hell. A -Spd Nino would be useless for dealing with them but a neutral or +Spd would be able to do what you need them to.

Another example is you have a +spd Marth and you really want a Lucina because Marth misses out on getting some key double attacks. If you pull a -Spd Lucina, she would be useless to you because she is unable to do the one thing you needed her to be able to do had she been +spd.

 

Again, Spd is going to be the most coveted stat that could make or break a unit. If it is a unit that doesn't rely on doubling or Brave weapon damage output, then the Nature doesn't matter all that much.

[Vaximillian]

I am sure it is a pretty unpopular opinion, but I don't really want them to add ways to reroll assets and flaws. As I see it, it is a way to simulate random growths of the main series. Units can get screwed by the RNG. It's unpleasant but it's a thing that happens.

My first and most favourite five-star was a –Atk Lyn. I used the hell out of her before I replaced my whole team. I would have kept her if she grew a bit more Str, though.

[shadowofchaos]

6 minutes ago, Hawk King said:

For the past few weeks, the difference between 4700 and 4800 has been like 30,000 spots. So even just improving your score by 20-30 points can take you up quite a bit.

It's not so much replacing a character you are already using with a better one of the same weapon type. If your team is having trouble with Reinhardts and you have no good green mages to deal with him, you might want a Nino to deal with him. However, a -Res Nino will still get 1HKOed by Reinhardts so there would be no point in training her up. Or you only have no ranged attacking units on your team and neutral and +spd Takumis give you hell. A -Spd Nino would be useless for dealing with them but a neutral or +Spd would be able to do what you need them to.

Another example is you have a +spd Marth and you really want a Lucina because Marth misses out on getting some key double attacks. If you pull a -Spd Lucina, she would be useless to you because she is unable to do the one thing you needed her to be able to do had she been +spd.

 

Again, Spd is going to be the most coveted stat that could make or break a unit. If it is a unit that doesn't rely on doubling or Brave weapon damage output, then the Nature doesn't matter all that much.

Yet people definitely have enough arena crests to circumvent specific matchups if your luck at getting streak killers suck.

Yes 30,000 spots.

That qualifies for me as competitive.

The people I talk about that throw away 5 stars aren't even in the 4500 point range.

For points from 0-4400, my point is that natures are being focused on when it isn't even the deciding factor in their game.

Edited May 5, 2017 by shadowofchaos

[Arcanite]

3 minutes ago, Vaximillian said:

I am sure it is a pretty unpopular opinion, but I don't really want them to add ways to reroll assets and flaws.

I actually agree with you on this one.

Especially when I say stuff like "Thank goodness this (hero) is minus (stat)" which is what I've been saying a lot with the arena team I had to use for this season lol

2 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

For points from 0-4400, my point is that natures are being focused on when it isn't even the deciding factor in their game.

You can't generalize all people and say that natures aren't a deciding factor in their games of they're 0-4400

Nobody can ever predict what nature is gonna do what for them until they see the team that they are up against.

[shadowofchaos]

8 minutes ago, Arcanite said:

Nobody can ever predict what nature is gonna do what for them until they see the team that they are up against.

True, however at the lower levels of the arena, how bad are natures going to screw you with the same character moreso than how you played?

Natures are a deciding factor in your current streak.

Never affecting the ceiling of your maximum arena score.

The value of the unit with the points you can gain is the same as another of the same unit with another nature.

Assuming you get a 7 deathless run, their value is the same for the arena.

Which pretty much invalidates @Hawk King argument for improving your score by 30 points if the ceiling is the same for a 7 deathless run.

Edited May 5, 2017 by shadowofchaos