What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?

[Benice]

1 minute ago, Ottservia said:

That’s fair but my problem with this line of thinking is that basically you can pretty much ignore all the work a writer puts into their story simply due to subjective bias and that’s honestly a little disrespectful.

True, but if you miss the nuance, you miss the nuance, I guess. I could say that, say, I found the nuance of FE11's characters to be too nuanced to the point that it barely existed-This adknowledges that there is nuance, but it simply was not written to my taste.

 

 

Also-I wanna see bracketing as a thing in later FE games. As for what bracketing is, to quote the SF page on Berwick:

Quote

Bracketing determines how far a character can be from the expected stat growths for their level for any of their core stats at any given time. Any bonuses to their stats are ignored and can bypass the bracketing entirely.

So, it is a good compromise as there is still variance and a random factor, but it prevents the game from being so screwed over by the RNG.

 

[Sooks]

12 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Like it’s fine to say “I don’t like Edelgard” but to say “I think Edelgard is a bad character because she her backstory doesn’t make sense” is simply an incorrect statement and provably so

Eh, I would disagree. For example, when I first played fe7, I had no idea what was going on half the time and was super confused. The reason behind this was because “Marquess” was such a foreign word to me and all the place names sound similar to my brain, and so I didn’t really know who was who and as such it didn’t make sense to me. How do you prove that it makes sense to me? You can’t, because it doesn’t, and you can’t see into my mind.

A common example I would see throughout school was math, kids just wouldn’t understand, and the teachers would have to explain it a different way sometimes for everyone to understand. Their minds just worked differently.

Unless you mean proving it as understandable by showing that you think it makes sense, therefore it’s possible, but that’s like saying that because an English teacher knows every word of Romeo and Juliet that every student should find that it makes sense.

7 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

That’s fair but my problem with this line of thinking is that basically you can pretty much ignore all the work a writer puts into their story simply due to subjective bias and that’s honestly a little disrespectful.

If a writer isn’t willing to accept the fact that someone’s opinions could be purely based on subjective bias I have no idea what they’re doing publishing a story. It’s not like you owe it to them to analyze every word and come up with your own deep conclusion.

10 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

So to say he didn’t put any thought into the story of that game is simply rude, disrespectful, and dismissive of all the effort he put in to tell the story he wanted to tell.

Maybe so, but it can still appear that way to others, and they can’t exactly change that.

[Ottservia]

2 minutes ago, Benice said:

True, but if you miss the nuance, you miss the nuance, I guess. I could say that, say, I found the nuance of FE11's characters to be too nuanced to the point that it barely existed-This adknowledges that there is nuance, but it simply was not written to my taste.

Yeah and that’s totally fine because at least you can respect the story for what it is and what it’s trying to be while still not liking it. Like if you don’t like something you don’t like something. Personal taste is a thing and you are perfectly entitled to that. All I ask is that you respect the story and the thought that was put into. You don’t have to like it just acknowledge that it is indeed there.

 

3 minutes ago, Sooks1016 said:

Maybe so, but it can still appear that way to others, and they can’t exactly change that.

Just because you’re not seeing the nuance that doesn’t mean it’s not there. Also opinions can change. That’s possible. My opinions on things have changed multiple times. Again I find that incredibly disrespectful to suggest that there was no effort put into story or that a story does not have merit when it bery clearly does

[Lightcosmo]

3 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Just because you’re not seeing the nuance that doesn’t mean it’s not there. Also opinions can change. That’s possible. My opinions on things have changed multiple times. Again I find that incredibly disrespectful to suggest that there was no effort put into story or that a story does not have merit when it bery clearly does

There is such a thing as a bad storyline. Just look at KH3!

Effort or not, poor writing is poor writing. That doesn't give it a free pass on criticism. If it did, then you could never say a storyline is "bad" because they tried.

[Ottservia]

1 minute ago, lightcosmo said:

There is such a thing as a bad storyline. Just look at KH3!

Effort or not, poor writing is poor writing. That doesn't give it a free pass on criticism. If it did, then you could never say a storyline is "bad" because they tried.

Oh but I thought it was all subjective. I thought it was subjective to say that story was bad. I thought it was subjective to say awakening’s story is tonally inconsistent when that inconsistency very clearly serves a purpose in balancing out the more serious mood can have at times. So now there’s such a thing as objectivity in regards to story telling when it’s on something you personally think is poorly written. God this double standard shit pisses me off alright. Like come on you’re contradicting yourself here. First there’s no such thing as objectivity in regards to story telling when I try to defend awakening saying it’s tonal balance is actually well handled but now suddenly there’s a such thing as poor storytelling

[Sooks]

9 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

All I ask is that you respect the story and the thought that was put into. You don’t have to like it just acknowledge that it is indeed there.

I don’t feel like it’s necessary to acknowledge that there is thought put into a story before criticizing it.

10 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Just because you’re not seeing the nuance that doesn’t mean it’s not there. Also opinions can change. That’s possible. My opinions on things have changed multiple times.

“Nuance” is subjective, and to imply that just because changing opinions is possible means that you should try to change everyone’s opinions to yours itself is “disrespectful” to others’ right to think freely.

14 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Again I find that incredibly disrespectful to suggest that there was no effort put into story or that a story does not have merit when it bery clearly does

Saying a story is bad isn’t inherently saying there was no effort put into it, and what’s obviously effort to you isn’t the same for everyone else. Some things just seem to lack effort, like Fates’ story in my mind. That doesn’t make it true, but it doesn’t need to to not be disrespectful when people are just talking about why they do or don’t like something.

[Ottservia]

2 minutes ago, Sooks1016 said:

Saying a story is bad isn’t inherently saying there was no effort put into it,

Incorrect, I think SoV’s story is an incoherent thematic mess but I can at least acknowledge the story has ideas it wants to explore. I just don’t think those ideas were explored very well. Like I can acknowledge what the story is trying to accomplish. I don’t think SoV is good That doesn’t mean I have disrespect the developers to voice that.

 

4 minutes ago, Sooks1016 said:

Nuance” is subjective, and to imply that just because changing opinions is possible means that you should try to change everyone’s opinions to yours itself is “disrespectful” to others’ right to think freely.

If we wanna go with the whole subjectivity argument. I can say that in my opinion Severa doesn’t have an inferiority complex when that is provably not true. It literally says she has one right in her roster entry. Whether or not you like Severa is subjective but to deny that there are aspects to her character that people can relate to is just dismissive and disrespectful. The fact that she has an inferiority complex in it itself is nuance by definition of what nuance is.

[Samz707]

15 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Incorrect, I think SoV’s story is an incoherent thematic mess but I can at least acknowledge the story has ideas it wants to explore. I just don’t think those ideas were explored very well. Like I can acknowledge what the story is trying to accomplish. I don’t think SoV is good That doesn’t mean I have disrespect the developers to voice that.

 

If we wanna go with the whole subjectivity argument. I can say that in my opinion Severa doesn’t have an inferiority complex when that is provably not true. It literally says she has one right in her roster entry. Whether or not you like Severa is subjective but to deny that there are aspects to her character that people can relate to is just dismissive and disrespectful. The fact that she has an inferiority complex in it itself is nuance by definition of what nuance is.

I get what you're going for but actually even if something is said in someone's literal roster entry, it can be "wrong" in the sense that the writer failed to properly show/use that trait in the story so it feels like they TELL the audience once thing but the actual story doesn't quite show it.

Tvtropes even has a sorta page for this with "Informed Attribute" https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InformedAttribute

 

 

Edited October 3, 2020 by Samz707

[Sooks]

13 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Incorrect, I think SoV’s story is an incoherent thematic mess but I can at least acknowledge the story has ideas it wants to explore. I just don’t think those ideas were explored very well. Like I can acknowledge what the story is trying to accomplish. I don’t think SoV is good That doesn’t mean I have disrespect the developers to voice that.

Okay, but there’s no good reason we should go around saying that before criticizing a story.

14 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

If we wanna go with the whole subjectivity argument. I can say that in my opinion Severa doesn’t have an inferiority complex when that is provably not true.

But saying something is subjective doesn’t make it subjective. You can say that all you want, but if it’s right there, it’s right there. This is different from drawing a conclusion based on what we see in any given media, like in what “makes sense”. That’s a very specific example, we were talking about how you said people should make statements about their thoughts on art when prepared to back them up with facts and reasoning.

16 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

The fact that she has an inferiority complex in it itself is nuance by definition of what nuance is.

It might be nuanced to you, but other people can just find it “eh”.

[Ottservia]

2 minutes ago, Samz707 said:

I get what you're going for but actually even if something is said in someone's literal roster entry, it can be "wrong" in the sense that the writer failed to properly show/use that trait in the story.

Tvtropes even has a sorta page for this with "Informed Attribute" https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InformedAttribute  and I've said earlier how I feel Bernie's character ends up feeling a bit only informed due to the way her supports with Byleth work. 

 

 

That’s a different discussion entirely though. My point is that people can be wrong about their opinions on stories. The opinion itself is not wrong but the justification can be. To say Severa is a bad character because she has no depth is simply incorrect because having an inferiority complex is indeed depth. To say she has no reason to act the way that she does is again incorrect because an inferiority complex is indeed a reason to act that way. To say it doesn’t make sense is also incorrect because one look at psychological studies will prove that people with inferiority complexes tend to that act that way so it(by definition) does indeed make sense and is understandable. You don’t have to like or relate to her as a character as that is completely subjective but to say she lacks depth as a character is incorrect.

[Lightcosmo]

36 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Oh but I thought it was all subjective. I thought it was subjective to say that story was bad. I thought it was subjective to say awakening’s story is tonally inconsistent when that inconsistency very clearly serves a purpose in balancing out the more serious mood can have at times. So now there’s such a thing as objectivity in regards to story telling when it’s on something you personally think is poorly written. God this double standard shit pisses me off alright. Like come on you’re contradicting yourself here. First there’s no such thing as objectivity in regards to story telling when I try to defend awakening saying it’s tonal balance is actually well handled but now suddenly there’s a such thing as poor storytelling

Actually I've been saying that storyline is based on opinion, you just refused to listen.

Surprise surprise. 

Also, tell me where I said Awakenings story was bad. 

[Seazas]

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

You say that as if a yes man is an inherently bad role for an avatar.

It is when Kris is undeservingly elevated for it when Kris acts no different from Cain, Draug and others and you don't see Marth treating them like he does Kris despite knowing them longer.

Robin by comparison acts as an actual character and actually highlights the oddity of him being relied on and by doing so, strengthened his bond with Chrom. 

Edited October 3, 2020 by Seazas

[Sooks]

2 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

To say Severa is a bad character because she has no depth is simply incorrect because having an inferiority complex is indeed depth.

In your mind, maybe. But that might not be enough for other people, like how I don’t like Marianne from fe16 just for having low self esteem.

4 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

To say she has no reason to act the way that she does is again incorrect because an inferiority complex is indeed a reason to act that way.

That doesn’t mean others agree with that logic.

5 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

To say it doesn’t make sense is also incorrect because one look at psychological studies will prove that people with inferiority complexes tend to that act that way so it(by definition) does indeed make sense and is understandable.

This is akin to saying that because someone who likes to wear hats killed someone, murdering someone because you like hats make sense and is understandable.

7 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

You don’t have to like or relate to her as a character as that is completely subjective but to say she lacks depth as a character is incorrect.

Some people just find different traits compelling ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

8 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

That’s a different discussion entirely though. My point is that people can be wrong about their opinions on stories. The opinion itself is not wrong but the justification can be.

If the justification is a fact then sure, but you were saying that people should be prepared to back up their opinions with arguments and facts, which aren’t necessary and sometimes won’t even exist for opinions. The problem is that none of your above justifications are facts, and most of the time they won’t be. Just what different folks think about different strokes.

[Seazas]

In light of recent events, Male Byleth 100% deserves to be the one having a singular amiibo. Female Byleth will go on and still be the most popular, might as well let the better designed character have this.

[Ottservia]

3 minutes ago, Sooks1016 said:

That’s a very specific example, we were talking about how you said people should make statements about their thoughts on art when prepared to back them up with facts and reasoning.

No what I said was that if you’re going to justify your opinion on something with argumentative claims, reasoning, and evidence then you should be able to back up that claim properly. If I say SoV is a poorly written story then I should be able to back up that claim as I am taking an argumentative stance. If I simply say, “I don’t like SoV’s story” then that’s a wholly subjective statement. You can you cannot argue whether or not I dislike something. There’s literally no discussion or debate to be had. Saying SoV’s story is poorly written is something that can be discussed and proven at least to some degree. There is a legitimate discussion to be had there.

 

11 minutes ago, Sooks1016 said:

But saying something is subjective doesn’t make it subjective. You can say that all you want, but if it’s right there, it’s right there. This is different from drawing a conclusion based on what we see in any given media, like in what “makes sense”.

oh but there isn’t really much of a difference. Like I agree with your first statement. Just because you say something is subjective that doesn’t mean it is. Here is my point and let me just use an example from Naruto. Naruto vs Sasuke part 1 to be specific. It is entirely subjective if someone does like this fight. However to say this fight has no personal or emotional stakes for the characters is incorrect. If you didn’t feel any emotion with the fight then fine that’s your opinion but to say there is no emotional weight to the fight is just factually not true. Because the point of the fight is that one friend is trying to prevent another from leaving him because he doesn’t want to lose the first friend he ever had. That is emotional weight inherently. Both characters have emotional stake in the fight and you can prove that it’s there through the character’s actions and dialogue. That’s where the nuance and depth comes from. To suggest that this fight has no emotional weight to it is simply not true.

 

 

2 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

Actually I've been saying that storyline is based on opinion, you just refused to listen.

That’s the same thing as saying storytelling is subjective. If it’s subjective then it cannot be objective therefore there is no such thing as “bad storytelling” by that logic. You are contradicting yourself. Plain and simple.

[Lightcosmo]

10 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

That’s the same thing as saying storytelling is subjective. If it’s subjective then it cannot be objective therefore there is no such thing as “bad storytelling” by that logic. You are contradicting yourself. Plain and simple.

That's not really what I think, I was just giving an example. Try not to jump to conclusions next time, yeah?

[Sooks]

9 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

That’s the same thing as saying storytelling is subjective. If it’s subjective then it cannot be objective therefore there is no such thing as “bad storytelling” by that logic. You are contradicting yourself. Plain and simple.

Bad is not an objective word.

10 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

No what I said was that if you’re going to justify your opinion on something with argumentative claims, reasoning, and evidence then you should be able to back up that claim properly. If I say SoV is a poorly written story then I should be able to back up that claim as I am taking an argumentative stance. If I simply say, “I don’t like SoV’s story” then that’s a wholly subjective statement. You can you cannot argue whether or not I dislike something. There’s literally no discussion or debate to be had. Saying SoV’s story is poorly written is something that can be discussed and proven at least to some degree.

These statements you’re using are the same, the first one is just saying why one dislikes SoV, you cannot prove good writing. Under most circumstances one shouldn’t be prepared to take an argumentative stance, albeit with some exceptions, like this thread 😂 But saying SoV’s writing is bad would bring up a discussion on why people feel the way they do about SoV, which is also what might happen if one says they don’t like SoV. Nothing is being proven in either example, so I don’t understand why only one is correct. These discussions aren’t about being right, they’re just about talking about things we like.

15 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Because the point of the fight is that one friend is trying to prevent another from leaving him because he doesn’t want to lose the first friend he ever had. That is emotional weight inherently.

Not everyone will agree that that is emotional.

[Samz707]

26 minutes ago, Seazas said:

In light of recent events, Male Byleth 100% deserves to be the one having a singular amiibo. Female Byleth will go on and still be the most popular, might as well let the better designed character have this.

I think of it this way, for at least people who only do one playthrough, roughly half/half will play as either Byleth

Clearly, we should have had Gate-Guard, since he is always present regardless of your choices and is the clear singular represnitive of Three Houses. (Even in Crimson Flower  he's still around for half the game.), Gate-Guard Amiibo is what we should have had as he is the true constant in 3H.

Edited October 3, 2020 by Samz707

[Ottservia]

Just now, Sooks1016 said:

Not everyone will agree that that is emotional.

Did you even read what I typed? Not everyone will agree that they felt emotionally attached to the fight but there is emotional weight to the fight. The characters are shouting at each other. They’re crying and fighting to prove themselves to each other. That is emotional weight. One character doesn’t want another character to leave because they mean a lot to them. If that isn’t an emotional conflict. I do not know what is. It’s an emotional conflict inherently. You can’t relate to it or if it didn’t make you feel emotional that’s fine. That’s a matter of personal taste but to say it is not there when it very clearly is, is simply not true.

[Sooks]

2 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Did you even read what I typed? Not everyone will agree that they felt emotionally attached to the fight but there is emotional weight to the fight. The characters are shouting at each other. They’re crying and fighting to prove themselves to each other. That is emotional weight. One character doesn’t want another character to leave because they mean a lot to them. If that isn’t an emotional conflict. I do not know what is. It’s an emotional conflict inherently. You can’t relate to it or if it didn’t make you feel emotional that’s fine. That’s a matter of personal taste but to say it is not there when it very clearly is, is simply not true.

Ah, unclear wording on my part. I’m not talking about whether or not they feel emotionally attached, I’m saying that just because there is emotion doesn’t mean that others might think that is very emotionally heavy.

[Ottservia]

Just now, Sooks1016 said:

Ah, unclear wording on my part. I’m not talking about whether or not they feel emotionally attached, I’m saying that just because there is emotion doesn’t mean that others might think that is very emotionally heavy.

Yeah and I agree but that doesn’t mean there is no emotion there. To claim that there isn’t, is not true and that emotion comes from the nuance that makes up the fight. The little details that that make it up and help drive the thematic point home. To suggest that this fight doesn’t have those things is incorrect. You don’t have to like it but don’t say it’s not there because it is. You can Acknowledge that it is there while also not liking it

[Sooks]

2 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Yeah and I agree but that doesn’t mean there is no emotion there. To claim that there isn’t, is not true and that emotion comes from the nuance that makes up the fight. The little details that that make it up and help drive the thematic point home. To suggest that this fight doesn’t have those things is incorrect. You don’t have to like it but don’t say it’s not there because it is. You can Acknowledge that it is there while also not liking it

Be that as it may, it still does not make your original point of people always needing facts and arguments when mentioning their opinions true.

[Samz707]

Anyone else get the implications that Byleth is actually a terrible mercenary? they'd literally be dead/heavily injured several times over in 3H and I'm not even half way through the game with them Diving infront of the bandit boss and trying to hit the mage's fireball with the Sword of the Creator, it legitimately kinda gets to the point where I feel like Jeralt used them like a unit you feed the participation EXP in Echoes and they were only allowed to fight dudes already near death, since they seem to be very good at getting themselves killed if it wasn't for the plot being in the way and not at all competent at actual mercenary work. (Not to mention literally having canon save-scum powers, so now I'm wondering if Byleth actually canonically abuses Divine Pulse considering their seeming inability to avoid dying whenever a cutscene is running, I could legit see Cutscene-Byleth using Divine Pulse in pretty much every battle, probably mostly for themselves honestly..)

Also am I the only one super bothered when a dude just walks off injuries in cutscenes? I can tolerate it somewaht with say, Erik in FE7 (The dialogue implies he's not actually standing up and he's not able to put up any actual resistance.) but Byleth has nearly died twice in Three Houses to bosses that I both had Edelgard cleave their skull in two with her axe but then a cutscene kicks in and suddenly they're seemingly only lightly injured in the case of Kostas and the enemy mage is somehow seemingly unharmed in that chapter despite being a normal looking unarmored dude, it's like reverse-plot armor and it equally takes me out of the game, the cutscenes just feel incredibly disjointed from the actual gameplay, almost to the point where I feel they need a complete re-work. (And the dude even pulls out a magic shield spell that seemingly only exists in the cutscene dimension.)

Edited October 4, 2020 by Samz707

[Lightcosmo]

27 minutes ago, Sooks1016 said:

Be that as it may, it still does not make your original point of people always needing facts and arguments when mentioning their opinions true.

Amen to that!

[Ottservia]

25 minutes ago, Sooks1016 said:

Be that as it may, it still does not make your original point of people always needing facts and arguments when mentioning their opinions true.

Did I say that? No I didn’t at least not in that way. I’m just saying if you’re gonna try and use facts to try and justify your opinion then you should at least get your facts straight. I never said you needed facts and arguments when mentioning your opinion in general. You only need to do that if you’re gonna try and justify it or make argumentative claims out of it. So you just misunderstood me