What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Speaking of Lythos. Did anyone ever bother to ask what happened to all the people living there when Sombron and his zombie army took over? Because its established that Sombrom eats civilians. Maybe he gobbled up Clanne and Framme's parents when Alear wasn't looking. 

As for an unpopular opinion. I think a Genealogy remake is going to be less impressive then Echoes. What made Echoes impressive is how they took a bland cast of complete nobodies and turned them into proper characters with great designs, interesting personalities and very engaging bonds among some of them such as Mae and Boey. They started from complete scratch which made it doubly impressive. Due to Heroes Genealogy doesn't have this advantage anymore. As far personalities, character designs and voice acting is concerned Heroes already revealed all the changes to us.

The ton of charm Echoes put into its writing helped disguise that its plot is a bare bones NES game but since there's less to fix with Genealogy there's also less in which a remake can impress by how much it improved. 

Thracia remake will be super impressive then.

[Etrurian emperor]

I think we need more Lords and main characters who aren't very nice, and who aren't afraid to play the jerk from time to time. Alear, Shez, Robin, Chrom and Corrin. They're all so nice. They wouldn't hurt a fly or defend themselves when people act wildly unreasonable towards them. We should have a lord with a bit more edge to them.

Take Lyn and Hector for example. They're good people but they both behave unpleasant from time to time. Lyn's pride causes her to lash out when she doesn't need to and Hector's often pretty rude and violent. Another example is Ike who's a very good guy but not really a nice one. He's overtly blunt, pretty much never respects enemies that don't fall into his specific niche of warrior culture and for someone so against racism he's surprisingly classist. Somewhat annoying all three of them had their edge removed in later games. 

Now people would say this isn't an unpopular opinion. If asked just about anyone would say they want more nuanced characters who aren't quite so goody two shoes. But its interesting that when the fanbase  gets these characters they often don't really act like it. Its worth noting that a large amount of people turned against Claude the moment he became the morally shady schemer people claimed they wanted him to be. And Michy, arguably the poster girl of the flawed lord was hugely controversial during the time RD got released while her counterpart. The reaction to Celica being such a gigantic dummy is warranted but even before that people have criticized her when behaving in manners not unlike Lyn. 

 

 

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

But its interesting that when the fanbase  gets these characters they often don't really act like it. 

I want them to do it, but I also want them to do it well! I think Shez has a tiny bit of an edge though. At least when you measure them against the likes of Alear and Corrin.

[Acacia Sgt]

Maybe it's a reflection of current times and state of the world? It's the closest I feel that could be a cause.

[Florete]

10 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

And Michy, arguably the poster girl of the flawed lord was hugely controversial during the time RD got released while her counterpart.

Micaiah was constantly called a Mary Sue. I'll never understand how that narrative became a thing.

[Jotari]

1 minute ago, Florete said:

Micaiah was constantly called a Mary Sue. I'll never understand how that narrative became a thing.

It's not true, but I can see why people would fling it around. Because she is literally worshipped as a messianic figure in the context of the game, has specifically identified unique magic powers and the narrative does bend itself over backwards to make her fight Ike through no fault of her own (being female probably doesn't help either when it comes to that term). What stops her being a sue is how she reacts to these events, but if you're only giving a surface reading and have a bone to pick with the narrative overall (aka negativity blinders as opposed to rose tinted glasses) I can see why someone would Levi that as criticism even if I don't agree with it.

[Acacia Sgt]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

It's not true, but I can see why people would fling it around. Because she is literally worshipped as a messianic figure in the context of the game, has specifically identified unique magic powers and the narrative does bend itself over backwards to make her fight Ike through no fault of her own (being female probably doesn't help either when it comes to that term). What stops her being a sue is how she reacts to these events, but if you're only giving a surface reading and have a bone to pick with the narrative overall (aka negativity blinders as opposed to rose tinted glasses) I can see why someone would Levi that as criticism even if I don't agree with it.

How does being forced into the villain role counts as being seen as Mary Sue? I get it, it's not logical to begin with (Part 3 is basically a list chart of why she's far from being a Sue, ironically), but I can't say I can see the narrative for that one.

[Jotari]

6 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

How does being forced into the villain role counts as being seen as Mary Sue? I get it, it's not logical to begin with (Part 3 is basically a list chart of why she's far from being a Sue, ironically), but I can't say I can see the narrative for that one.

Well it'll depend on what you define a Mary Sue to be. One widely used definition is that the established world building or narrative itself bends to service the Mary Sue. Now the Blood Pact doesn't technically do that, but it certainly feels like it does that. And in very unsue typing it's awful for Micaiah, but a Micaiah hater isn't likely to feel empathy for her as a character and would more focus on how she's being forced to fight Ike while still being the good guy. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the blood pact is a famously poor writing mechanic and if someone is predisposed against Micaiah they can blame her for it rather than the actual writing. Part of the definition of Mary Sue is also "[Female] character I don't like." Honestly it's probably a term overall that's best left buried.

[Acacia Sgt]

11 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well it'll depend on what you define a Mary Sue to be. One widely used definition is that the established world building or narrative itself bends to service the Mary Sue. Now the Blood Pact doesn't technically do that, but it certainly feels like it does that. And in very unsue typing it's awful for Micaiah, but a Micaiah hater isn't likely to feel empathy for her as a character and would more focus on how she's being forced to fight Ike while still being the good guy. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the blood pact is a famously poor writing mechanic and if someone is predisposed against Micaiah they can blame her for it rather than the actual writing. Part of the definition of Mary Sue is also "[Female] character I don't like." Honestly it's probably a term overall that's best left buried.

I guess it does make sense as a correlation clause.

Quote

One widely used definition is that the established world building or narrative itself bends to service the Mary Sue.

I'll admit, I also see Mary Sue defined in this way... and the irony here, is that if it applies to anyone in RD, it's Ike. The Begnion-Laguz war gets aligned so well to be so morally Black and White for Ike to be the hero of, and Ike and his mercs are put as the cornerstone from which the Laguz Army can be successful (which is... ah, a bit suspect, making a Beorc the Laguz Savior). Any critic of him is not far from being painted as being wrong, due to either being actually bad people, or in Micaiah's case... well, it almost becomes self-explanatory there, after being forced to be his opponent in a clearly one-sided conflict as Micaiah is never allowed to have the upper ground, or not for long. He's the only one allowed to defeat Ashera despite Yune being able to power up anyone for that. Among other stuff, no doubt.

Edited January 29 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

18 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

the cornerstone from which the Laguz Army can be successful (which is... ah, a bit suspect, making a Beorc the Laguz Savior). 

Well I wouldn't say that true. The Laguz lose their war even with Ike (or more specifically Soren) guiding them in the right way. Soren is also pretty damn sure they can't win an uncontested victory. I'm also on record saying that the Laguz invasion is not depicted by the game as morally black and white. What you say is true about the Laguz-Crimeia-Apostle alliance though, but that's an entirely different scenario and one where Ike and co less central to. If Ike walked off there then Sanaki probably still would have won. Micaiah was basically the only thing stopping them, they had won any real battles in Begnion already with references to the people rising up against the Senate.

[Acacia Sgt]

Just now, Jotari said:

Well I wouldn't say that true. The Laguz lose their war even with Ike (or more specifically Soren) guiding them in the right way. Soren is also pretty damn sure they can't win an uncontested victory.

That's the thing though. When they finally lose the momentum, it's because it's the Laguz (specifically Skrimir) who screwed up (we also have Naesala's blood pact forcing him to backstab them), not because Ike's group did.

Just now, Jotari said:

I'm also on record saying that the Laguz invasion is not depicted by the game as morally black and white.

And as I mentioned before too... you sure about that?

First it's revealed it's the Senate who killed the Apostle and blamed it on the Herons. Then you have the Senate further killing the messengers the Laguz send over for dialogue. Then, of course, you have the Anti-Laguz bigotry front and center. "THE BEASTS WISH TO CONSUME ME" may be funny meme, but it reflects on Beorc attitudes towards the Laguz.

Just now, Jotari said:

What you say is true about the Laguz-Crimeia-Apostle alliance though, but that's an entirely different scenario and one where Ike and co less central to.

Except Ike is the one put to lead that alliance, as well as given Ragnell again to signify that.

• Sanaki: I certainly hope you will. Especially since I've decided to make you the commander of our combined forces.

Just now, Jotari said:

If Ike walked off there then Sanaki probably still would have won. Micaiah was basically the only thing stopping them, they had won any real battles in Begnion already with references to the people rising up against the Senate.

It's possible, but the fact we still have the Alliance plowing through Daein swiftly because of Ike means the game is still pointing out his presence is a big factor on how a war plays out.

[Jotari]

5 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

That's the thing though. When they finally lose the momentum, it's because it's the Laguz (specifically Skrimir) who screwed up (we also have Naesala's blood pact forcing him to backstab them), not because Ike's group did.

And as I mentioned before too... you sure about that?

Yes. I don't want to thread over stiff we've discussed before, but I believe the entire point of that stuff with Soren and the Laguz was to show they had no goals in sight and we're acting purely for revenge.

5 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Except Ike is the one put to lead that alliance, as well as given Ragnell again to signify that.

• Sanaki: I certainly hope you will. Especially since I've decided to make you the commander of our combined forces.

It's possible, but the fact we still have the Alliance plowing through Daein swiftly because of Ike means the game is still pointing out his presence is a big factor on how a war plays out.

Well yeah, he's still the protagonist of the part and still the main guy you play as. My point wasn't that he was useless. It's that he wasn't the cornerstone and victory probably could have been achieved without him, even if it would have been more difficult.

[Acacia Sgt]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Yes. I don't want to thread over stiff we've discussed before, but I believe the entire point of that stuff with Soren and the Laguz was to show they had no goals in sight and we're acting purely for revenge.

Which is also the thing. It's portrayed mostly as righteous/justified revenge. The main concern brought up about doing it isn't the morality of it, just the concerns about the Medallion.

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Well yeah, he's still the protagonist of the part and still the main guy you play as. My point wasn't that he was useless. It's that he wasn't the cornerstone and victory probably could have been achieved without him, even if it would have been more difficult.

If it's much more difficult to do it without him... then it does make him a cornerstone.

[Jotari]

Just now, Acacia Sgt said:

Which is also the thing. It's portrayed mostly as righteous/justified revenge. The main concern brought up about doing it isn't the morality of it, just the concerns about the Medallion.

If the Laguz mentality were wholly justified and righteous then the story would have had them win. Instead of retreat with their tail between their legs. They never get a conclusion to their bloodlust. The end message is to stop fighting and appreciate the moment. If you want to discuss that specific point I think we could make a dedicated thread for it to focus both on the actual morality of it and on what the story itself is trying to say about it.

Just now, Acacia Sgt said:

If it's much more difficult to do it without him... then it does make him a cornerstone.

Depends how much more you want to imagine it. We could remove every Greil merc from your army and that point including Ike and put Tibarn in the party instead and see if the chapters are much more difficult.

[Acacia Sgt]

Just now, Jotari said:

If the Laguz mentality were wholly justified and righteous then the story would have had them win. Instead of retreat with their tail between their legs. They never get a conclusion to their bloodlust. The end message is to stop fighting and appreciate the moment. If you want to discuss that specific point I think we could make a dedicated thread for it to focus both on the actual morality of it and on what the story itself is trying to say about it.

The story is about Sephiran manipulating the continent to awaken Ashera. So the morality of anyone's actions doesn't matter on which should win. So, the lose not because their cause isn't righteous. They lose because that prolongs and escalates the war, and the story requires for the war to do just that.

Just now, Jotari said:

Depends how much more you want to imagine it. We could remove every Greil merc from your army and that point including Ike and put Tibarn in the party instead and see if the chapters are much more difficult.

Gameplay and Story Segregation. The in-game stats don't have much stock for that argument.

[Jotari]

41 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

The story is about Sephiran manipulating the continent to awaken Ashera. So the morality of anyone's actions doesn't matter on which should win. So, the lose not because their cause isn't righteous. They lose because that prolongs and escalates the war, and the story requires for the war to do just that.

Sephiran didn't cause then to lose though. It was their own character failings that caused them to lose. The writing is better if those flaws play into the larger theme. Sephiran didn't manipulate everyone for the evilz. It was precisely because if those flaws that he condemned.

41 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Gameplay and Story Segregation. The in-game stats don't have much stock for that argument.

It's better than any hypothetical speculation about how easy or difficult they'd find it without Ike there.

[Acacia Sgt]

20 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Sephiran didn't cause then to lose though. It was their own character failings that caused them to lose. The writing is better if those flaws play into the larger theme. Sephiran didn't manipulate everyone for the evilz. It was precisely because if those flaws that he condemned.

Again, the story itself. The moment one side is doing well, suddenly it peters out. The Laguz have the advantage? Boom, cue Naesala forced to backstab, Skrimir goaded to a duel he would lose, and Daein forced to enter the war. Now it's Begnion having the momentum? Boom, Valtome stupidly drags Crimea into the war, Sanaki is finally liberated from her house arrest (and by proxy frees Kilvas from Senate control), Zelgius return to Begnion to liberate Sephiran triggering a Civil War against the Senate. Again, morality has little to do it. The writers wanted to have their story the one way, so it's going to happen. Otherwise why give Skrimir those character flaws to be exploited? Same for using the Blood Pacts. Notice how most of those factors that ruin one side's momentum come from elements added to RD. Since the writers intended it that way.

20 minutes ago, Jotari said:

It's better than any hypothetical speculation about how easy or difficult they'd find it without Ike there.

Want to bring stats into account? Fine.

First map is the bridge chapter. Boss has an Aqqar. Tibarn already shows up as an Other unit in that map. His death is a Game Over. Statistically, that Aqqar can one shot Tibarn. 34 MT x3 Effective Damage = 102 damage before Defense is applied. Tibarn can't survive that. He has 32 Def transformed, but only 68 HP. He needs 71 HP to survive an Aqqar bolt.

Edited January 29 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

32 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Again, the story itself. The moment one side is doing well, suddenly it peters out. The Laguz have the advantage? Boom, cue Naesala forced to backstab, Skrimir goaded to a duel he would lose, and Daein forced to enter the war. Now it's Begnion having the momentum? Boom, Valtome stupidly drags Crimea into the war, Sanaki is finally liberated from her house arrest (and by proxy frees Kilvas from Senate control), Zelgius return to Begnion to liberate Sephiran triggering a Civil War against the Senate. Again, morality has little to do it. The writers wanted to have their story the one way, so it's going to happen. Otherwise why give Skrimir those character flaws to be exploited? Same for using the Blood Pacts. Notice how most of those factors that ruin one side's momentum come from elements added to RD. Since the writers intended it that way.

And the writing is better if all of those things have thematic weight. Otherwise it's just a bunch of filler stuff until the ending happens. Which, if that's how you view Radiant Dawn's plot then fair enough, but I have a bit more respect for the writing than that. I don't think I'm way off base in saying that "Character has flaw"->"Antagonist uses that flaw to win"->"Character fails and is humbled" is a set of circumstances that is trying to say something about that character and what they're trying to achieve. Skirmr hotheadedness and the larger laguz forces he represents is wrong. Soren's more levelheaded and moderate approach is right.

32 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Want to bring stats into account? Fine.

Not really, bringing up stats was actually more tongue in cheek.

32 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

First map is the bridge chapter. Boss has an Aqqar. Tibarn already shows up as an Other unit in that map. His death is a Game Over. Statistically, that Aqqar can one shot Tibarn. 34 MT x3 Effective Damage = 102 damage before Defense is applied. Tibarn can't survive that. He has 32 Def transformed, but only 68 HP. He needs 71 HP to survive an Aqqar bolt.

But since we are getting into the weeds, how would my trained Mordecai or Haar stand up to it? By that point my Ike is already lv 20 so I don't use him much. Gratned I'm still using some of the other mercs like Shinon because they can promote. But if you do remove the mercs entirely and only use non merc units, I don't think the chapters would be significantly harder. Removing Haar would hurt much more.

[Acacia Sgt]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

And the writing is better if all of those things have thematic weight. Otherwise it's just a bunch of filler stuff until the ending happens. Which, if that's how you view Radiant Dawn's plot then fair enough, but I have a bit more respect for the writing than that. I don't think I'm way off base in saying that "Character has flaw"->"Antagonist uses that flaw to win"->"Character fails and is humbled" is a set of circumstances that is trying to say something about that character and what they're trying to achieve. Skirmr hotheadedness and the larger laguz forces he represents is wrong. Soren's more levelheaded and moderate approach is right.

Ultimately, at the end of the day the game is presenting the war in a Black and White way, with the Laguz as the clearly good guys, and the Senate-led Begnion as the clearly bad guys.

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Not really, bringing up stats was actually more tongue in cheek.

But since we are getting into the weeds, how would my trained Mordecai or Haar stand up to it? By that point my Ike is already lv 20 so I don't use him much. Gratned I'm still using some of the other mercs like Shinon because they can promote. But if you do remove the mercs entirely and only use non merc units, I don't think the chapters would be significantly harder. Removing Haar would hurt much more.

And that's why determining these kind of things using the in-game stats isn't the best way to answer it. Because the game will be structured in such a way to bring a specific conclusion. The map has to be won by the player party, after all.

[Jotari]

1 minute ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Ultimately, at the end of the day the game is presenting the war in a Black and White way, with the Laguz as the clearly good guys, and the Senate-led Begnion as the clearly bad guys.

No. Both are grey, in different ways. Ike and co are good. The Laguz are grey, being violent and bloodthirsty who refuse Soren's advice to pursue peace and as a result lose all gains they made turning the whole affair into nothing but a loss of life. In contrast, the Senate are definitely the bad guys, but they aren't the entirety of Begnion. That section of the game is also represented by Zelgius and Levail who the narrative does not depict as clearly bad guys. They are soldiers fighting to defend their home land and they try (and succeed) to do it in a way that spares everyone. Zelgius' character is later revealed to be the Black Knight outside of this Part 3 context, but even by that point he is still not depicted as wholly bad by the narrative and is given sympathy (much to the chagrin of some fans who see him as worse than the story presents).

1 minute ago, Acacia Sgt said:

And that's why determining these kind of things using the in-game stats isn't the best way to answer it. Because the game will be structured in such a way to bring a specific conclusion. The map has to be won by the player party, after all.

Won by the player, but not specifically by Ike or the Greil Mercenaries at that point in its run. Which was the point.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

The following implies not looking up or knowing the stats of enemies by heart because you replayed the game for the umpteenth time.

Fire Emblem does not provide the information for stat boosters to work well, much less efficiently and don´t they sell for only like 1/10 the price? Whoopdedoo, your side objective equals 2 Javelins. You have no information on enemy stats in the future and no information on the growths of your characters. And going off of base stats is strange too, because the good unit is only being made slightly better (if even that), the middling unit might just hit the 1 map spd benchmark and then slow down again because fuck you, and the bad unit... is probably still bad and no amount of boots will fix it.

I´m gonna suffocate someone with Spirit Dust.

On that note, I think Valentia has Cheese as statboosters? Could we let it mature for a bigger increase or would it decrease?

[vanguard333]

On 1/28/2024 at 9:53 PM, Florete said:

Micaiah was constantly called a Mary Sue. I'll never understand how that narrative became a thing.

I never understood why Micaiah was ever called a Mary Sue. She literally got overshadowed in her own game; Mary Sues, almost by definition, cannot be overshadowed in their own stories. 

[SnowFire]

6 hours ago, Imuabicus der Fertige said:

The following implies not looking up or knowing the stats of enemies by heart because you replayed the game for the umpteenth time.

Fire Emblem does not provide the information for stat boosters to work well, much less efficiently and don´t they sell for only like 1/10 the price? Whoopdedoo, your side objective equals 2 Javelins. You have no information on enemy stats in the future and no information on the growths of your characters. And going off of base stats is strange too, because the good unit is only being made slightly better (if even that), the middling unit might just hit the 1 map spd benchmark and then slow down again because fuck you, and the bad unit... is probably still bad and no amount of boots will fix it.

This is the unpopular opinions thread, but...  I can't agree here!  At least for games that aren't Three Houses or Awakening (as those games are dominated by skill choices instead, and more generally have Large Numbers that dull the impact of +2 to a stat).  You don't need to have looked up the growths and memorized them, just look at what the stats are Right Now.  If you have a fave unit but with one bad stat, throwing stat boosters in their direction is potent in most FEs.  It's both intuitive to casual players ("Hey, RD Haar needs more Speed" or "FE8 Marisa could use some Str") and effective in older FEs, where +2 Defense can be extremely significant.

The one area that kinda is a casual trap is games where stat caps are relevant, as then it can be easy to "waste" a stat booster if you don't realize you're already close to the maximum cap and the booster is overkill.  But oh well.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I do NOT think it's dumb that Shadows of Valentia claims there's a drought and yet there's food all over. Because what have armies done throughout human history? Roll into town and avail themselves of the local food stores. Alm isn't some kleptomaniac, he's being offered those oranges. Rationing was a big deal culturally as recently as in WW2. Google Victory Gardens. Food production goes up in war time, and it's going to the troops. The dire situation that Zofia faces isn't the drought, but knocking out the quality of their soil by over-farming. No doubt they practice crop rotation in peacetime but can't right now.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

2 hours ago, SnowFire said:

This is the unpopular opinions thread, but...  I can't agree here!  At least for games that aren't Three Houses or Awakening (as those games are dominated by skill choices instead, and more generally have Large Numbers that dull the impact of +2 to a stat).  You don't need to have looked up the growths and memorized them, just look at what the stats are Right Now.  If you have a fave unit but with one bad stat, throwing stat boosters in their direction is potent in most FEs.  It's both intuitive to casual players ("Hey, RD Haar needs more Speed" or "FE8 Marisa could use some Str") and effective in older FEs, where +2 Defense can be extremely significant.

The first Speedwing in RD drops, to my knowledge in 2-3, so right between chapters where Haar would be usable, as a result you would be sitting on a Speedwing doing nothing and with the above point about foresight, there is no guarantee when or how Haar comes back (of course, this is after the first routsplit, so one might expect some degree of uncertainty in terms of availability). The other Speedwing is 3-9, which is fair enough I guess, although this too is a chapter Haar isn´t available in and then Endgame 1 (if that´s what it´s called).

As for Marisa, same deal, joins in chapter 10, first Energy Ring available in chapter 7 through thievery, then 12 going forward.