Favorite "bad" unit

[Reikken]

Bastian is actually pretty good in FE9, as well. He's one of the rare sages you can actually call durable because on average, his HP and DEF are already higher than the other sages can get even at 20/20.

You forgot Calill and Tormod.

And supports (Ilyana gets alot of def from those)

and avoid

In fact, despite his lower magic scores and speed than other sages, he still serves pretty well in combat because of how broken RES is in the game. It's like you either negate all magic damage or take a huge hit.

dunno about the other modes, but he's failing on hard mode. He doesn't do enough damage to kill in two hits and usually attacks only once. Others like Calill and Soren can both attack twice and kill in two hits, thus killing in one round instead of three.

Edited October 31, 2008 by Reikken

[sandmanccl]

I never said he was BETTER than Calill and Tormod. We sort of are discussing people we find fun to use even though they aren't the best guys in their respective games, remember?

He's got a lot of intangibles going for him, though. He'll easily outclass sages you neglected, has high strength so he's at least not losing attack speed, has high base skills in all 3 magic types (A in wind, B in fire, C in thunder) so he's able to make use of the beefier tomes immediately, and is the only guy that can even potentially support an otherwise fairly decent unit in Volke.

Yeah, not being able to two-shot guys on his own is a problem. Stick him with Makalov, maybe, to help him out there. Bastian weakens, Mak finishes off. It worked excellently on normal, and I can only imagine it'd work just as well on Hard.

In FE10, it's a whole different story all together. The fact he joins with SS rank wind, S in fire, A in thunder and B in staffs is reason enough to give him a shot. He can get doubled by faster enemies if he gets speed screwed, but archsages can't get fast enough to ever double so I'm okay with him being slow. Joining with 35 magic power is pretty neat, especially considering your other sage types will have to at least be a level 5 archsage by then to have as much. And in that one, he's DEFINITELY more durable in terms of HP and Defense than the other sages barring some miracle growth on someone else's part.

[Reikken]

I never said he was BETTER than Calill and Tormod.

Here's what you said: "his HP and DEF are already higher than the other sages can get even at 20/20."

Bastian's hp and def: 36 and 12

Calill's avg 20/20 hp and def: 39.0 and 13.6

Tormod's avg 20/20 hp and def: 40.0 and 14.0

but archsages can't get fast enough to ever double

They can. The 32 spd cap doesn't prevent that until about 4-E-2, where things start having 29 spd.

Also, Rexflame.

[sandmanccl]

So Calill can double and Tormod can double. Tormod is pretty difficult to make useful due to his horrible playtime, and Calill is only slightly better in that regard.

32 speed is pretty failure, and even then you need an archsage who is at least level 7, and that's assuming you gained a speed EVERY SINGLE LEVEL while having capped it at tier 2. It's possible to double attack guys on 4-E-1 and 4-E-2, but it's not very likely without Rexflame.

You're right about the FE9 stats. I was thinking more FE10 when I said that. He really does have better defense and HP than most the other sages in FE10. Only Tormod beats him there, but oddly enough, Tormod loses in magic power (32.6? Bastian's base is better than that, let alone his 38 average level 20 stat), resistance, luck, and skill.

[Masu]

Sophia cuz shes uber cute

[Reikken]

So Calill can double and Tormod can double. Tormod is pretty difficult to make useful due to his horrible playtime, and Calill is only slightly better in that regard.

Yes, Tormod sucks because he joins at only about lv 10 tier 2 with only one chapter left before endgame, but Calill is perfectly fine. Paragon in 3-9 and 3-11 (with her getting a lot of attention from Leanne, but not so much that you have to slow down) is enough to get her to lv 20, and then you still have 3-E. So she easily reaches 3rd tier before part 4 even starts. And this is on hard mode.

32 speed is pretty failure, and even then you need an archsage who is at least level 7, and that's assuming you gained a speed EVERY SINGLE LEVEL while having capped it at tier 2. It's possible to double attack guys on 4-E-1 and 4-E-2, but it's not very likely without Rexflame.

You must not use fire sages much... Calill only needs to gain 5 spd to hit her 3rd tier cap. She goes into tier 3 with 27 spd. Her tier 2 cap is 25. And her spd growth is 55%. She typically hits her cap by lv 10.

And the vast majority of 4-E-1's enemies max at 27 spd, not 28, so only 31 spd is needed to double nearly everything on the map.

[sandmanccl]

I'll make sure to note that on my PIH entry. I really need to get around to the actual level-by-level guide. ;_;

Still, you have to admit it's still somewhat difficult to do, and it's only a slight difference for a handful of maps. Give Bastian a shot sometime, especially if you're using Elincia, Lucia, and Geoffrey. It's kind of weird how well they mesh together. Parking Lucia right next to the other 3 gives her a raw +20% crit boost, IIRC.

[YokaiKnight]

From FE9, Elincia, Shinon, and Largo for the freaking win.

[Reikken]

I'll make sure to note that on my PIH entry. I really need to get around to the actual level-by-level guide. ;_;

"PIH"? What's that?

also, what part are you noting?

Still, you have to admit it's still somewhat difficult to do, and it's only a slight difference for a handful of maps. Give Bastian a shot sometime, especially if you're using Elincia, Lucia, and Geoffrey. It's kind of weird how well they mesh together. Parking Lucia right next to the other 3 gives her a raw +20% crit boost, IIRC.

What's difficult to do? Get Calill to 31 spd before endgame? If so, then no... with the massive flood of enemy units in every pt 4 chapter, plus three paragon scrolls, plus her having staves as well, 7-8 levels isn't bad at all.

[sandmanccl]

I'm aware you can boost guys a ton of levels in the Part 4 chapters. I've raised Elincia to level 20 on accident the first time I played the game by slapping Paragon on her with her Mercy skill. It was pretty epic.

PIH = play it hardcore = www.playithardcore.com = a website I'm an administrator and contributer on. The part I'd be noting is the superior speed that the fire mages offer compared to Ilyana, Soren and Bastian, due to Rexflame. I didn't realize they had different tier 2 caps. I thought it was only tier 3 caps that changed between the different types.

[bunny: spider bitten]

Tormod isn't so awful, if you use an item to max his strength and BEXP him to 20/20/1. No, you shouldn't be using him much in FE10 and he's only really. . . average in FE9, but I like him.

Then again, I have much better luck than most people. . .

Edited November 2, 2008 by bunny

[Reikken]

+str items are useful. Having to let it rot in my convoy for several chapters that I could have been making use of the extra power sounds like a bad idea to me. And even then, you're trading in a +2 of a useful stat in order to get two random stat points somewhere else. Emphasis on random because you don't know what you're getting and it could be something you don't really want. Just give him a spirit dust or something.

Also, bexp-ing someone a large number of levels doesn't work at all on hard mode since you effectively have 1/4 as much as on normal mode.

Edited November 2, 2008 by Reikken

[bunny: spider bitten]

If you do it, he gains something like an extra point in skill and magic, and 2 in luck and res on average. Never said it was a great idea though. Thus, topic.

Edited November 2, 2008 by bunny

[sandmanccl]

Tormod isn't so awful, if you use an item to max his strength and BEXP him to 20/20/1. No, you shouldn't be using him much in FE10 and he's only really. . . average in FE9, but I like him.

Then again, I have much better luck than most people. . .

Why would you use an item to max his strength? It's pretty much going to happen on it's own. Or do you just mean so that you gain more useful stats via bonus XP?

Honestly, using him just means learning how to baby people later on. The ledge he starts on means he's not going to be missing enemies from below. As long as you have a way to take out the crossbow guys so he doesn't even have to worry about being attacked (a good idea: Rolf or Shinon as a Marksman directly next to him blocking the other way up), you should be able to milk the units below for an awful lot of XP. If you've got one floating in your inventory, you can go back to HQ after the map starts and they rejoin to slap Paragon on him to help out.

I mean to use him end-game one playthrough but haven't got around to it yet.

[bunny: spider bitten]

You use the stat booster to guarantee he gets above average gains from the BEXP, yeah. Even if it was completely random, he'd lose half a point in stats from BEXP until he maxed it out.

[Oguma]

Meg because;

BIG GIRLS, YOU ARE BEAUTIFUL!

[Admiral "Bull" Halsey]

BIG GIRLS, YOU ARE BEAUTIFUL!

If that's what you think, them I'm truly disgusted...

[Kintenbo]

If that's what you think, them I'm truly disgusted...

But big girls don't cry, man.

Let's see, if I already posted here, I'd like to add Vika and Lyre to the list.

[Mekkah]

FE4: Deirdre is amazingly fun to use and abuse for the chapter you have her. She can OHKO stuff, comes with two skills that counter each other in one bracelet, and spam staves. Though Ardan and Dew are fun to EXP abuse up and then own stuff with...Ardan doesn't even get attacked due to insane Def, and Dew gives me huge cash surpluses.

FE5: Fred. Olwen support + good class + scroll abuse = nice. I still need to raise Shanam for fun once, too. And I believe lots of people hate on Sleuf, when he's actually pretty awesome. A staves ftw.

FE6: Ward definitely. Huge bonkers of HP and Str, and pretty much nothing else.

FE7: iono, everyone is usable, and I don't really like the bad units anyway. I suppose I enjoy Bartre.

FE8: Nosferatu Knoll is a lot of fun to use, even if he gets doubled by enemy Shamans when using it. Dozla is pretty cool too. I suppose I like slow axe users.

[Smashbro64]

The only one I have is Edward from FE10

Edited November 5, 2008 by Smashbro64

[Former Guest]

Tormod in FE10. So help me, I feel no shame in toggling him around for three chapters, feeding him EXP that could have gone to certain Dawn Brigaders who are worthless anyway and then stifling a guffaw how wrong he goes much later. It's his own fault!

FE5: Fred. Olwen support + good class + scroll abuse = nice. I still need to raise Shanam for fun once, too. And I believe lots of people hate on Sleuf, when he's actually pretty awesome. A staves ftw.

Fred just becomes really mediocre very quickly at holding up to anything on the enemy phase as opposed to a lot of characters. He lasts long enough he can fit into deployments here and there as a harmless subsidiary who can one-round stuff like virtually all the high and the other mid tiers, though. If he could use every lance out of the box like every sword, he'd be noticeably instead of marginally or possibly no better than a prepromote like Glade.

Sleuf is puzzling. I don't care for him because he joins at a point where almost the entire crowd (bar those nubs who probably aren't getting used unless it's for pure lulz - foot archers, brigand etc.) will be reaching promotion before he does and it's going to be way too late in his case for what I believe practical - I mean later than the vile Across the River stage before you traverse the bridges, but above all that belief of mine is rooted in his being someone who'll require fielding during that time as unpromoted deadweight to fill out the full 14 levels so he can become high priest thanks to ch. 22 vendor or last stronghold. That's not cool, imo. What's more, there are worse weapons he could be weighed down by than Lightning, but like before, his AS, offense and durability are still going to suck quite badly as opposed to even more characters; promoting him early is like doing the same for FE10 Rhys at --/10 - why? Others can use all the staves besides Sleuf, the catch is they're going to have supports, can promote earlier and sport offense/durability that leaves his to rot. You can field him like you would a favorite, but he's shrugworthy. Why settle for less apart from the single A staves conceit that's hardly unique?

Consider: on the hardest mode of FEDS, Marth's sister is a latejoining two chapter cleric with A staves right away, and will get even less offense to speak of, but has instant bond supports unlike Sleuf and is naturally much easier to get to promotion (I'm talking over the course of a single chapter) from 10/0. The final presents enough obstacles (enemies with high hit and some with capped speed, including none other than the archnemesis) she may yet be snuck in as someone extra who can fortify (albeit mehly - quite low base magic stat despite growth).........since Marich&Linda aren't that good nor can they take opportunity of a fatigue system nor deal with promotion items that can extend beyond a fixed number, and even in the event they are being used they will be hard-pressed to have A rank staves by then without time-wasting abuse. All this said, Ellis is still pretty bad as just a filler healer, and she's part of an easier campaign than Sleuf.

[_____]

The only one I have is Edward from FE10

Edward isn't a bad unit at all. He's useful for Part 1, the hardest part of the game, and he's arguably the best swordmaster come endgame.

[Former Guest]

Edward isn't a bad unit at all. He's useful for Part 1, the hardest part of the game, and he's arguably the best swordmaster come endgame.

Edward isn't special. I'm of the opinion no trueblade is good enough to be making the endgame cut.........

[_____]

Edward isn't special. I'm of the opinion no trueblade is good enough to be making the endgame cut.........

You kidding? Edward and Mia are some of the better sword users in the game, with Zihark still useable due to his H4X affinity, and maybe even Stefan if you can boost his horrendous luck.

[Former Guest]

You kidding? Edward and Mia are some of the better sword users in the game, with Zihark still useable due to his H4X affinity, and maybe even Stefan if you can boost his horrendous luck.

Ike (natch)

Titania

Gatrie

Elincia

Tauroneo

perhaps Marcia/Makalov/Kieran

I don't know, looks like enough candidates who can use swords, and more, are beating them to a slot, I have several laguz who are locks, and then those last three listed are but a few examples competing for distant backup consideration if for some reason there's any room left.