[DATAMINE] Ike May Actually Be Bad (Someone Please Prove Me Wrong)

[Jingle Jangle]

4 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

The way I understand the wording:

• Ike initiates, opponent double attacks (A-B1-B2): Urvan applies to B2.
• Ike initiates, opponent has Vantage and double attacks (B1-A-B2): Urvan does not apply.
• Ike initiates and double attacks, opponent has Quick Riposte (A1-B1-A2-B2): Urvan does not apply.
• Opponent initiates and double attacks (B1-A-B2): Urvan does not apply.
• Opponent initiates and double attacks with Desperation (B1-B2-A): Urvan applies to B2.
• Opponent initiates with a Brave weapon and double attacks (B1-B2-A-B3-B4): Urvan applies to B2 and B4.
• Opponent initiates with a Brave weapon and double attacks with Desperation (B1-B2-B3-B4-A): Urvan applies to B2, B3, and B4.
• Opponent initiates and double attacks, Ike has Vantage (A-B1-B2): Urvan applies to B2.
• Opponent initiates with a Brave weapon and double attacks, Ike has Vantage (A-B1-B2-B3-B4): Urvan applies to B2, B3, and B4.
• Opponent initiates, Ike cannot counterattack (B1(-B2-B3-B4)): Urvan applies to B2, B3, and B4.

And so on.

The consecutive attacks reduction needs to be a skill in the game. If it was a skill, would the third level still grant an 80% to all consecutive attacks? I see this being useful a defense team with bulky units.

[Zeo]

15 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

The way I understand the wording:

• Ike initiates, opponent double attacks (A-B1-B2): Urvan applies to B2.
• Ike initiates, opponent has Vantage and double attacks (B1-A-B2): Urvan does not apply.
• Ike initiates and double attacks, opponent has Quick Riposte (A1-B1-A2-B2): Urvan does not apply.
• Opponent initiates and double attacks (B1-A-B2): Urvan does not apply.
• Opponent initiates and double attacks with Desperation (B1-B2-A): Urvan applies to B2.
• Opponent initiates with a Brave weapon and double attacks (B1-B2-A-B3-B4): Urvan applies to B2 and B4.
• Opponent initiates with a Brave weapon and double attacks with Desperation (B1-B2-B3-B4-A): Urvan applies to B2, B3, and B4.
• Opponent initiates and double attacks, Ike has Vantage (A-B1-B2): Urvan applies to B2.
• Opponent initiates with a Brave weapon and double attacks, Ike has Vantage (A-B1-B2-B3-B4): Urvan applies to B2, B3, and B4.
• Opponent initiates, Ike cannot counterattack (B1(-B2-B3-B4)): Urvan applies to B2, B3, and B4.

And so on.

By that Logic, Urvan procs on virtually any situation where the opponent strikes in succession and is not limited to Brave Strikes or Desperation. The best possible outcome.

Which brings me back to people downplaying Ike.

[Lushen]

The issue with Urvan if it doesn't double with 1range units is it encourages the user to attack first.

We all know the general rule of thumb to let the enemies units attack first, so we can get to attack next turn first against a weakened unit.  ike's skill only works when he attacks though (against 1range unit).  So, it encourages you to attack first giving the enemy the first attack on the second sequence against your weakened Ike (and at 100%) which results in more damage being done to you than if you would have never activated his skill (2 hits + 1 hit at 20% as opposed to 2 full hits before you attack twice if outspeed).

Basically, its worthless against other melee units if it doesnt work with doubles.  Its just good for baiting ranged units without taking much damage in which case DC could be more useful b/c you will actually do damage while baiting.

 

BUT, one of his three weapon effects (16mt, killer effect) does not make him bad (he also has 2 unique skills and some of the best stats for a low speed unit)

Edited August 29, 2017 by Lushen

[Ice Dragon]

2 minutes ago, Lushen said:

The issue with Urvan if it doesn't double with 1range units is it encourages the user to attack first.

We all know the general rule of thumb to let the enemies units attack first, so we can get to attack next turn first against a weakened unit.  ike's skill only works when he attacks though (against 1range unit).  So, it encourages you to attack first giving the enemy the first attack on the second sequence against your weakened Ike (and at 100%) which results in more damage being done to you than if you would have never activated his skill (2 hits + 1 hit at 20% as opposed to 2 full hits before you attack twice if outspeed).

Basically, its worthless against other melee units if it doesnt work with doubles.  Its just good for baiting without taking much damage in which case DC could be more useful b/c you will actually do damage while baiting.

If you don't like Urvan's tertiary effect, you can literally treat it identically to Hauteclere. There is nothing stopping you from doing so, and Hauteclere is already an amazing weapon.

The point of the effect is specifically to counter Brave weapons and Desperation, which it does fantastically. That it works on consecutive follow-up attacks is effectively a bonus and not the main effect.

[Othin]

41 minutes ago, Jingle Jangle said:

The consecutive attacks reduction needs to be a skill in the game. If it was a skill, would the third level still grant an 80% to all consecutive attacks? I see this being useful a defense team with bulky units.

If such a skill existed, it'd probably hit 80% at the top level, like how the second effect from Blazing Durandal is Heavy Blade 3. It'd probably be 40% at level 1 and then 60% at level 2.

[Lushen]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

If you don't like Urvan's tertiary effect, you can literally treat it identically to Hauteclere. There is nothing stopping you from doing so, and Hauteclere is already an amazing weapon.

That's literally exactly what I said though...

edit: Oh you probably didn't see my edit and previous posts.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Lushen

[Ice Dragon]

1 minute ago, Lushen said:

That's literally exactly what I said though...

You seemed to have a problem with how the tertiary effect sometimes does nothing as if sometimes doing nothing (on Urvan) were somehow worse than not existing (on Hauteclere).

Compared to Hauteclere, Urvan is never worse off. Your second paragraph seems to imply as such. Just because you can attack on player phase to make use of Urvan's effect doesn't mean you have to attack on player phase in the same way that just because a unit has Quick Riposte for specific match-ups doesn't mean you have to make use of it by waiting for enemy phase if you could also kill on player phase.

[Lushen]

24 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

You seemed to have a problem with how the tertiary effect sometimes does nothing as if sometimes doing nothing (on Urvan) were somehow worse than not existing (on Hauteclere).

Compared to Hauteclere, Urvan is never worse off. Your second paragraph seems to imply as such. Just because you can attack on player phase to make use of Urvan's effect doesn't mean you have to attack on player phase in the same way that just because a unit has Quick Riposte for specific match-ups doesn't mean you have to make use of it by waiting for enemy phase if you could also kill on player phase.

Me saying the tertiary effect is not the greatest skill in the world != me thinking it is a bad weapon

I mentioned previously in this thread and the general thread that his weapon is still good because it has 16mt and has killer effect.  And while the tertiary skill is not the best, it is still useful making it better than weapons already considered to be good.  Basically, I said exactly what you were saying.

[Lord Raymond]

3 hours ago, Lushen said:

Low speed = Everyone freaks out about usability.  Most of the time, its true though.

But one of the main infantry units I use is Ephraim, who isn't exactly known for speed. Considering your pfp and banner, I think you know what I'm talking about. Low speed is hardly a detriment, as long as attack and physical bulk can make up for it, and most of the time it does. I don't see what you mean about it being true most of the time.

[Lushen]

6 minutes ago, Lord Raymond said:

But one of the main infantry units I use is Ephraim, who isn't exactly known for speed. Considering your pfp and banner, I think you know what I'm talking about. Low speed is hardly a detriment, as long as attack and physical bulk can make up for it, and most of the time it does. I don't see what you mean about it being true most of the time.

Ephraim is exactly who I was thinking of when I made that statement.  I said most of the time, Ephraim is oneo f the best examples of an infantry with low speed that is good.  Its just difficult for units to be good with low speed, Ephraim is one of few.

[NekoKnight]

25 minutes ago, Lord Raymond said:

But one of the main infantry units I use is Ephraim, who isn't exactly known for speed. Considering your pfp and banner, I think you know what I'm talking about. Low speed is hardly a detriment, as long as attack and physical bulk can make up for it, and most of the time it does. I don't see what you mean about it being true most of the time.

Because having high defense or high attack can be trivialized if you are doubled/can't double the enemy. To use Michalis as an example, his Atk/Def are both high but aren't enough to let him one-shot enemies nor double them. Instead he gets doubled which means a fast, reasonably strong character can easily wear him down. He really needs flier buffs to succeed where Miverva/Cordelia/etc can be run on mixed teams because of their high attack and speed.

[Troykv]

1 hour ago, Lushen said:

Ephraim is exactly who I was thinking of when I made that statement.  I said most of the time, Ephraim is oneo f the best examples of an infantry with low speed that is good.  Its just difficult for units to be good with low speed, Ephraim is one of few.

But Ephraim isn't only used as a buffer? (And Eirika does that better because she is harder to kill).

[Johann]

You know, thinking about Urvan has reminded me how shitty Pavise, etc are.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

4 hours ago, Troykv said:

But Ephraim isn't only used as a buffer? (And Eirika does that better because she is harder to kill).

Eirika is honestly worse IMO. Low atk unit just didnt do it to me

[Lushen]

12 hours ago, Troykv said:

But Ephraim isn't only used as a buffer? (And Eirika does that better because she is harder to kill).

Ephraim is a surprisingly good dullest with his atk/def/hp.  He can even duel some of the dragons despite his low res w/ high hp and atk.  In my original acc't, I had both Ephraim and Eirika and Ephraim was much more useful.  Eirika hit like a wet noodle.  The key was that his high def/hp let him survive long enough to build up his special where he then obliterated the enemy w/ his high atk.  This is why Ike's weapon having a killer effect is SOOO good for Ike.

Other units w/ low speed that are good are Zephiel (and other armored units), Eldigan, Chrom(decent), Hawkeye, Lukas, Michalis(maybe).  

It's very rare that units w/ low speed are good, but it happens!  And I think Ike will be pretty good w/ his speed, the only problem is his speed should have doubled down and been much lower.  

Edited August 30, 2017 by Lushen

[LuxSpes]

7 hours ago, JSND said:

Eirika is honestly worse IMO. Low atk unit just didnt do it to me

Ephraim also has the benefit of being blue, while Eirika is just another sword unit. And it sure doesn't help my opinion of her that the two 5* Eirikas I ever pulled were both +HP/-Spd and that she needs +Atk and neutral Spd to really have an offensive presence.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

3 minutes ago, LuxSpes said:

Ephraim also has the benefit of being blue, while Eirika is just another sword unit. And it sure doesn't help my opinion of her that the two 5* Eirikas I ever pulled were both +HP/-Spd and that she needs +Atk and neutral Spd to really have an offensive presence.

Blue vs Red is a flip atm though. Sword Lord is common, but Blue have 90.000 broken unit so the Sword Lord number's issue effectively got canceled in comparison

[Zeo]

The irony of this discussion is that people are complaining left and right about Ike's speed when two of the most ridiculous meta units have some of the worst speed in the game.

[Ice Dragon]

23 minutes ago, Zeo said:

The irony of this discussion is that people are complaining left and right about Ike's speed when two of the most ridiculous meta units have some of the worst speed in the game.

A Brave weapon is effectively equivalent to a minimum of +∞ Spd Darting Blow as well as Desperation with no HP restriction, both on your weapon slot, at the cost of slightly lower Atk.

Reinhardt's low Spd with his Dire Thunder build only matters on enemy phase, and you're probably doing something wrong if he's getting attacked on enemy phase.

[Lushen]

Additionally, Reinhardt's stats actually make for a horrible brave user.  The reason he can get away with it is because he does magic damage and more people run lowres units.

[Tenzen12]

Not really. Only requirement for brave user is having high attack, which he does.

[Lushen]

4 minutes ago, Tenzen12 said:

Not really. Only requirement for brave user is having high attack, which he does.

His attack is mediocre, not high.  And the rest of his stats are bad.  We all know rein can't tank anything, and his speed is abysmal. Generally you want ~35-36 spd so when you apply brave effect unit still won't be doubled and either high def or high res and decent hp b/c you can't invest in both like Reinhardt tries to do.  In fact, Reinhardt has pretty awful stats.  The only reason hs is generally considered better than Olwen is b/c Olwen has terrible atk which is even worse for a brave user.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Lushen

[Tenzen12]

Brave units are supposed kill enemy in offensive. They make up for their slow speed by ability 2HKO because dead enemies can't double you.

[Lushen]

28 minutes ago, Tenzen12 said:

Brave units are supposed kill enemy in offensive. They make up for their slow speed by ability 2HKO because dead enemies can't double you.

But even if atk is the only stat that matters as you imply for brave units, Reinhardt would be pretty awful b/c his atk isn't even very impressive.  The spd and decent def/res/hp just makes them be able to tank something in certain situations, like how Lyn can be an emergency mage tank.  It also opens the possibility to quad certain lowspd units with high def like Ephraim, lukas and armored units.  You shouldn't built for quad in most cases, but it is nice to be able to quad some things.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Lushen

[Ice Dragon]

18 minutes ago, Lushen said:

His attack is mediocre, not high.  And the rest of his stats are bad.  We all know rein can't tank anything, and his speed is abysmal. Generally you want ~35-36 spd so when you apply brave effect unit still won't be doubled and either high def or high res and decent hp b/c you can't invest in both like Reinhardt tries to do.  In fact, Reinhardt has pretty awful stats.  The only reason hs is generally considered better than Olwen is b/c Olwen has terrible atk which is even worse for a brave user.

Reinhardt's 32 Atk is the highest Atk on any mounted magic user outside of Spring Camilla (at 35 Atk), who has a worse weapon type and lower movement range, and is tied with Cecilia's. For comparison, Frederick has 35 Atk and Cherche has 38 Atk, but both have a weaker color, a weaker attack range, and a weaker weapon (and in Cherche's case, lower movement range).

Reinhardt currently kills all red, colorless, and blue tome characters in the game in two hits (with Death Blow 3 and Hone Cavalry), and Lancebreaker covers any blue units he might have missed. He doesn't need Spd because his Atk is high enough to get the one-round kill on so many units already. Being able to hit four times when the opponent is already dead in two is of no use.