FE game with most wasted potential?

[Emperor Hardin]

18 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Like what? Variety? I fail to see this so-called "variety" when nearly all monster classes are comparable to human classes (and that's being generous when they're even weaker than humans - for (EFF!)'s sake, with one exception, monsters don't even use Silver weapons at all!). I don't care much for variety when most of Sacred Stones' monsters amount to nothing more than cannon fodder.

Except for the part where Faceless tend to not drop in one round, unlike Sacred Stones' monsters, and tend to pack all sorts of nasty skills, like Seals.

Maybe, but from where I'm standing, those classes I named were in an even worse position, at least in SD.

What was the universal truth of Fire Emblem games again...? That mages tend to be in the minority in the enemy side...? Long story short, I have no reason to believe this until I actually get the game for myself.

No comment. (haven't played the game, so I don't know how true that is)

In what way?

I fail to see how they're worth using when anyone who can be a Warrior can instead be a Berserker, which is just better.

Maybe that's true in New Mystery after you unlock reclassing options, but in SD, I'd say they're pointless.

As early as the first monster chapter in Sacred Stones, you fight skeletons, zombies, and mogalls, while in the faceless chapter you just fight the same class over and over again. As mentioned there are differences between the monster and human classes. The monster classes also look and feel distinct to the player.

Because higher difficulty settings are available in Fates.

Generals has great utility in Shadow Dragon and New Mystery as it has great defense growth and a significantly defense base compared to all other classes. Its also only 1 movement behind other infantry classes. So yes, those classes are indeed in better standing in the DS remakes then Echoes. Barons/Generals in Echoes have zero advantages, you can't even name one about the class, while in the DS remakes, there are plenty of spots for them to tank with their incredible base defense.

You haven't played Gaiden/Echoes, obviously. The vast, vast majority of enemies are Arcanists, Cantors, and Witches as you are fighting an organization full of them. In the final chapters, almost all the enemies are magic users. Witches can also teleport to any tile they want, which they frequently use to teleport next to armored units and destroy them. Giving even less reason to use Barons.

Look up Astra in Echoes. Also one of the best ranged weapons in the game is the Lightning Sword which has a higher attack when fully upgraded then Gradivus!

Sol, Gradivus, and Javelin have higher weight/speed reduction and lowered might. 

Warriors have a much higher defense cap and a higher skill cap. Also you can only have 2 Berserkers, when Wolf and Barst are in the pirate line, the Fighter line will do for Ogma.

They exist mainly for flavor as Sorcerer is the dark wizard Gharnef's class, just like Jedah with Cantor in Echoes. Bord and Caesar make decent dark mages, while Etzel is great in New Mystery.

This isn't to say the class balance of the DS remakes is perfect, but they did a lot more then Echoes.

Edited September 5, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[Shadow Mir]

23 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

As early as the first monster chapter in Sacred Stones, you fight skeletons, zombies, and mogalls, while in the faceless chapter you just fight the same class over and over again. As mentioned there are differences between the monster and human classes. The monster classes also look and feel distinct to the player.

Because higher difficulty settings are available in Fates.

Generals is pretty great in Shadow Dragon and New Mystery as it has great defense growth and significantly defense base. Its also only 1 movement behind other infantry classes. So yes, those classes are indeed in better standing in the DS remakes then Echoes. Barons/Generals in Echoes have zero advantages, you can't even name one about the class, while in the DS remakes, there are plenty of spots for them to tank with their incredible base defense.

You haven't played Gaiden/Echoes, obviously. The vast, vast majority of enemies are Arcanists, Cantors, and Witches as you are fighting an organization full of them. In the final chapters, almost all the enemies are magic users. Witches can also teleport to any tile they want, which they frequently use to teleport next to armored units and destroy them. Giving even less reason to use Barons.

Look up Astra in Echoes. Also one of the best ranged weapons in the game is the Lightning Sword which has a higher attack when fully upgraded then Gradivus!

Sol, Gradivus, and Javelin have higher weight/speed reduction and lowered might. 

Warriors have a much higher defense cap and a higher skill cap. Also you can only have 2 Berserkers, when Wolf and Barst are in the pirate line, the Fighter line will do for Ogma.

They exist mainly for flavor as Sorcerer is the dark wizard Gharnef's class, just like Jedah with Cantor in Echoes. Bord and Caesar make decent dark mages, while Etzel is great in New Mystery.

And they're all piss weak, especially the zombies (for (EFF!)'s sake, they have even worse bases than loldiers!). More variety of cannon fodder means nothing to me.

I never said anything about Generals in SD and New Mystery.

Did you really need to point out stuff I already fessed up to in the post you quoted (twice, no less)??? Geez, Louise.

Except the Lightning Sword has a fixed Mt of 19 at most - that might be good early on, but I doubt it'll stay that way as you progress.

Okay then.

Fair enough on the class part, but you slipped up with the caps part - I don't see why caps are relevant when, needless to say, you're spending way more time with stats not capped than with capped stats.

Fair enough on Etzel, but as far as SD goes, I don't see any reason to run a Sorcerer when they literally can't do anything my Sages can't do. Speaking of, the magic classes are another area where SD's questionable class balance rears its ugly head - all of them are tied with General for the worst speed base, not to mention them having pretty low bases all around.

Edited September 5, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[NekoKnight]

Fates is the obvious answer. Barely any worldbuilding, plot contrivances galore, and the game spits on its own premise in several ways. Fates had 3 games worth of content to write an epic of a story, and all it proved was that it was less than the sum of its parts. Thanks for doing nothing with the first manakete lord.

The runner up would be SoV. It's heads and shoulders above Gaiden (how could it not be?) and I liked various things they added, but it still falls short of its potential. It's good that they had themantic elements in mind but many of their themes and story elements contradicted themselves and certain characters (Fernand, Berkut, Rudolf) were deeply unsympathetic despite the narative suggesting otherwise. I would have liked Alm and Celica to have an actual relationship as well.

Re: Monster discussion, Risen and Faceless were incredibly lazy and I much preferred the SoV/SS approach to monsters.

Edited September 5, 2017 by NekoKnight

[Emperor Hardin]

19 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

And they're all piss weak. More variety of cannon fodder means nothing to me.

I never said anything about Generals in SD and New Mystery.

Did you really need to point out stuff I already fessed up to in the post you quoted (twice, no less)??? Geez, Louise.

Except the Lightning Sword has a fixed Mt of 19 at most - that might be good early on, but I doubt it'll stay that way as you progress.

Okay then.

Fair enough on the class part, but you slipped up with the caps part - I don't see why caps are relevant when, needless to say, you're spending way more time with stats not capped than with capped stats.

Fair enough on Etzel, but as far as SD goes, I don't see any reason to run a Sorcerer when they literally can't do anything my Sages can't do. Speaking of, the magic classes are another area where SD's questionable class balance rears its ugly head - all of them are tied with General for the worst speed base, not to mention them having pretty low bases all around.

Thats because there are less difficulties in Sacred Stones, not the result of monster classes themselves being weaker in the Sacred Stones. As mentioned they can do a lot more then faceless, puppets and Golems. And Awakening's monsters, there is no comparison to be had. 

Speaking of zombies, they are piss poor weak in all games. And in Awakening, they were the only monsters to appear, yet somehow the game thought it necessary to have an anti monster weapon when no one has problems defeating revenants and entombed anyhow.

From my understanding, you said "classes I named were in an even worse position, at least in SD." I was saying Armor Knights/Generals are in an infinitely better position in SD then Echoes.

All enemies in Echoes, but Dread Fighters, have terrible resistance. Lightning Sword you get in the beginning of the game, too, giving it better availability then javelin, which you only get one of in Celica's route.

Baron/General Base Defense isn't that much better and people like Saber who have very high defense growth will easily surpass them in defense. Movement never changes in Echoes so Soldier line units are stuck with 4 movement the whole way through, even by the point of dread fighters have 7 and Gold Knights 9. Without caps, General is just an extra weakness as Echoes added anti armory weaponry not in the original, and an eternally low movement in a game with large maps.

The original game had a 3 movement giving ring and a more powerful warp spell. The remake altered the speed ring to only give 1 move, making Barons with it still having much less movement then any other combat class. While Warp was greatly nerfed. Short version, Echoes Shadows of Valentia made Barons worse then in the NES version. While Shadow Dragon for DS made Generals far better then they were in the NES and SNES versions. Basically Shadow Dragon updated the gameplay much better.

Sorcerer is playable as an extra mostly anyhow, its not a main class like the Soldier line is in Echoes. If you turn someone into a Sorcerer, they are at least redeemable once they get going. Any Baron in Echoes is always worse then if they were a Gold Knight.

Edited September 5, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[Shadow Mir]

31 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Thats because there are less difficulties in Sacred Stones, not the result of monster classes themselves being weaker in the Sacred Stones. As mentioned they can do a lot more then faceless, puppets and Golems. And Awakening's monsters, there is no comparison to be had.

From my understanding, you said "classes I named were in an even worse position, at least in SD." I was saying Armor Knights/Generals are in an infinitely better position in SD then Echoes.

All enemies in Echoes, but Dread Fighters, have terrible resistance. Lightning Sword you get in the beginning of the game, too, giving it better availability then javelin, which you only get one of in Celica's route.

Baron/General Base Defense isn't that much better and people like Saber who have very high defense growth will easily surpass them in defense. Movement never changes in Echoes so Soldier line units are stuck with 4 movement the whole way through, even by the point of dread fighters have 7 and Gold Knights 9. Without caps, General is just an extra weakness as Echoes added anti armory weaponry not in the original, and an eternally low movement in a game with large maps.

The original game had a 3 movement giving ring and a more powerful warp spell. The remake altered the speed ring to only give 1 move, making Barons with it still having much less movement then any other combat class. While Warp was greatly nerfed. Short version, Echoes Shadows of Valentia made Barons worse then in the NES version. While Shadow Dragon for DS made Generals far better then they were in the NES and SNES versions. Basically Shadow Dragon updated the gameplay much better.

Sorcerer is playable as an extra mostly anyhow, its not a main class like the Soldier line is in Echoes. If you turn someone into a Sorcerer, they are at least redeemable once they get going. Any Baron in Echoes is always worse then if they were a Gold Knight.

Either way, Sacred Stones' quantity over quality approach with monsters failed. Miserably. And I'd consider Automata more of a miscellaneous class.

But I was talking specifically about Warriors, Dark Mages, and Sorcerers.

Isn't there only one Lightning Sword, too?

Fair enough, I guess. 

Except SD's adding the WT was clumsy (did the weapon triangle really need to be added to a game where most everything used lances??), and like I said, it's class balance was also pretty bad (see the magic classes for Exhibit A).

And a Dark Mage/Sorcerer in SD is always worse off than literally anything else, so what's your point?

[Emperor Hardin]

27 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Either way, Sacred Stones' quantity over quality approach with monsters failed. Miserably. And I'd consider Automata more of a miscellaneous class.

But I was talking specifically about Warriors, Dark Mages, and Sorcerers.

Isn't there only one Lightning Sword, too?

Fair enough, I guess. 

Except SD's adding the WT was clumsy (did the weapon triangle really need to be added to a game where most everything used lances??), and like I said, it's class balance was also pretty bad (see the magic classes for Exhibit A).

And a Dark Mage/Sorcerer in SD is always worse off than literally anything else, so what's your point?

Then you only have Faceless and Golems, Faceless are a bit better then entombed, but they're still weaker then Sacred Stones monsters. Golems work like how Ballistas do in other FE games, but again they're just one single class thats uncommon in the game anyhow. 

Sacred Stones is a popular game, maybe you didn't like its handling of monsters, but others did. As mentioned it did them better then Fates and Awakening. And, barring rare classes like Dracozombies, Monsters are ALWAYS weaker then human enemies in Fire Emblem.

Well neither Warrior nor Dark Mage/Sorcerers are in Echoes, so there's no comparison to be had. And as mentioned, DS Fighters were massively buffed from the NES and SNES versions of the same game. Something Generals in Echoes did not get, even becoming worse. 

There is without side quests, but you get the lightning sword right after the third battle, so thats far greater availability. Again its damage is massive, particularly for that point in the game. Echoes favors sword wielders.

As mentioned, Heroes and Dracoknights frequently used axes.

No it isn't, Dark Mage/Sorcerer is just as good as sage once it gets going. Baron, no matter how much you save scum and pamper, will always be bad. So this really isn't similar at all.

Also you can't compare the two as Dark Mage/Sorcerer is an extra class in Shadow Dragon, equivalent to Echoes adding Arcanist as something you can access with a DLC item(not in the game).  That Shadow Dragon added new playable classes is something in its favor.

While the Soldier line is a major playable class many characters start in in Echoes, yet is entirely irredeemable as a class. Soldier line is important, Dark Mage was an extra, put in Shadow Dragon as a treat, let the player use the unplayable class. And again, with favoritism, Dark Mage Cord and Caesar can be good. There's nothing to help the baron class in Echoes.

Edited September 5, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[Shadow Mir]

42 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Then you only have Faceless and Golems, Faceless are a bit better then entombed, but they're still weaker then Sacred Stones monsters. Golems work like how Ballistas do in other FE games, but again they're just one single class thats uncommon in the game anyhow. 

Sacred Stones is a popular game, maybe you didn't like its handling of monsters, but others did. As mentioned it did them better then Fates and Awakening.

Well neither Warrior nor Dark Mage/Sorcerers are in Echoes, so there's no comparison to be had. And as mentioned, DS Fighters were massively buffed from the NES and SNES versions of the same game. Something Generals in Echoes did not get, even becoming worse. 

There is without side quests, but you get the lightning sword right after the third battle, so thats far greater availability. Again its damage is massive, particularly for that point in the game. Echoes favors sword wielders.

As mentioned, Heroes and Dracoknights frequently used axes.

No it isn't, Dark Mage/Sorcerer is just as good as sage once it gets going. So this really isn't similar at all.

Also you can't compare the two as Dark Mage/Sorcerer is an extra class in Shadow Dragon, equivalent to Echoes adding Arcanist as something you can access with a DLC item(not in the game). 

While the Soldier line is a major playable class many characters start in in Echoes, yet is entirely irredeemable as a class. Soldier line is important, Dark Mage was an extra, put in Shadow Dragon as a treat, let the player use the unplayable class.

I call bullshit here since most monsters have bases that are either worse across the board or only marginally better than Faceless do (the only exceptions are specialized classes, and even there it's just 1 or 2 stats). And in terms of caps... yeah, disadvantage Sacred Stones (the highest cap in said game is 30).

The monsters were well-implemented... In your opinion, maybe. I'd much rather monsters not show up at all than having them implemented as clumsily as SS did - they had no connection to the main villain of the game storywise (not to mention the monster fights in SS mostly screamed "filler"), and gameplay wise, most of them were weaker than the human classes, which themselves didn't exactly leave me quaking in fear.

You have a point there, but that's not saying very much when Fighter tends to not be a very good class anyhow (the amount of respectable units that are Fighters is one I can count on one hand).

No argument there.

Do we have different definitions of "frequently"? Because nearly all Heroes and Dracoknights used swords and lances, respectively.

On paper, maybe, but in practice, not so much when the "best" dark mages happen to be those who are better off in other classes anyway.

I fail to be convinced that the Soldier line is anywhere near as bad as you claim - you mention the lategame being rife with mages, but what about before then?

Edited September 5, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Emperor Hardin]

49 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I call bullshit here since most monsters have bases that are either worse across the board or only marginally better than Faceless do (the only exceptions are specialized classes, and even there it's just 1 or 2 stats). And in terms of caps... yeah, disadvantage Sacred Stones (the highest cap in said game is 30).

The monsters were well-implemented... In your opinion, maybe. I'd much rather monsters not show up at all than having them implemented as clumsily as SS did - they had no connection to the main villain of the game storywise (not to mention the monster fights in SS mostly screamed "filler"), and gameplay wise, most of them were weaker than the human classes, which themselves didn't exactly leave me quaking in fear.

You have a point there, but that's not saying very much when Fighter tends to not be a very good class anyhow (the amount of respectable units that are Fighters is one I can count on one hand).

No argument there.

Do we have different definitions of "frequently"? Because nearly all Heroes and Dracoknights used swords and lances, respectively.

On paper, maybe, but in practice, not so much when the "best" dark mages happen to be those who are better off in other classes anyway.

I fail to be convinced that the Soldier line is anywhere near as bad as you claim - you mention the lategame being rife with mages, but what about before then?

Keep in mind class bases are different in Sacred Stones and Fates. Also several Monsters in Sacred Stones have higher bases then most human classes in the same game, all monsters have higher weapon ranks. Again Caps are higher in Fates.

You can look and compare faceless bases here, they barely surpass the loldiers, let alone the unprompted classes. Sacred Stones had a few fearsome monster classes, Fates has Zero.

Monsters were literally the main henchman of the Demon King which was stressed constantly. And Monsters are ALWAYS weaker then the human classes in Fire Emblem. Heck in Awakening, not one monster class is at all threatening at any point in the game. You're rallying against Sacred Stones for something EVERY game with monster classes does, even Tearring Saga does it.

Point being fighters were greatly improved in the remake and they are indeed usable.

Nearly every Hero used Axes and Dracoknights were just as likely to use Lances as Axes. 

Again, Dark mage is an extra they added. And Cord with favoritism turns out far better then any Baron in Echoes with favoritism.

What else do you need to hear. The class has no advantages at all, magic users are super common in Celica's route and Alm's route after act 1(the prologue chapters). The Duma faithful, the main enemy group is made up almost entirely of Arcanists, witches, and Cantors. The picture above is one of the early chapters in the game.

In Hard mode, the enemy Mages are buffed even further with incredible attack and a 1-3 range spell is added to enemy magic users.

Soldier NEVER shows up on any recommend promotion list, every faq says not to promote anyone to soldier. The Soldier line is literally the Cavalry line but without movement. There's ZERO advantage to that from any perspective.

You admit to not even playing neither Gaiden or Echoes, so you can't say the Soldier class line isn't bad or that enemy magic users aren't common. There are even chapters with enemies that summon witches.

Edited September 5, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[Kalken]

7 hours ago, Armagon said:

Definitely a tie between Fates and Shadow Dragon. Fates tried to give us this morally gray conflict between Hoshido and Nohr.

Eh, while I do not disagree that Fates was mishandled I don't see a basis to claiming that it was ever supposed to be "morally gray" in that both sides had legitimate backgrounds to engage in hostilities. The pre-release info painted Hoshido as peace-loving with Nohr being glory-seeking conquerors. The choice between factions was framed as Corrin either siding with his birth family who are the royalty of the peace-lovers (Blood) or the family he was raised in who are the royalty of the conquerors (Loyalty). It looked like we were getting a story where you desert the home and family you know to side with your forgotten blood and fight off the aggressors.

This was mishandled, yes, but from how they didn't really follow the premise all the way. First it turns out that Garon is both cartoonishly evil and ridiculously hostile towards Corrin to the point of sending him on obvious suicide missions, making the option of siding with Hoshido not about returning to your birthright or even taking a stand against Nohr's imperialism despite your good times but instead about getting away from Garon (complete with Garon himself noting how silly it was for Corrin to return to Nohr). Then it turns out that Corrin had amnesia all along and totally remembers Hoshido, making him be concerned about his Hoshidan siblings when playing Conquest. It ends up being that the plot repeatedly contorts itself so Corrin isn't a villain worthy of scorn and instead either some victim or "tragic" hero aiding an unprovoked invasion of Hoshido (his Hoshidan siblings all more or less excusing him, Yato supporting him, Kaze and Azura both helping to torch Hoshido).

Just having the question of "Do you side with your family and home even when you know they're committing atrocities on a land like Hoshido" makes for interesting enough drama. They botch it from trying to frame Corrin as a paragon of virtue ala Marth or Seliph or Ike no matter what happens in Conquest.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Keep in mind class bases are different in Sacred Stones and Fates. Also several Monsters in Sacred Stones have higher bases then most human classes in the same game, all monsters have higher weapon ranks. Again Caps are higher in Fates.

You can look and compare faceless bases here, they barely surpass the loldiers, let alone the unprompted classes. Sacred Stones had a few fearsome monster classes, Fates has Zero.

Monsters were literally the main henchman of the Demon King which was stressed constantly. And Monsters are ALWAYS weaker then the human classes in Fire Emblem. Heck in Awakening, not one monster class is at all threatening at any point in the game. You're rallying against Sacred Stones for something EVERY game with monster classes does, even Tearring Saga does it.

Point being fighters were greatly improved in the remake and they are indeed usable.

Nearly every Hero used Axes and Dracoknights were just as likely to use Lances as Axes. 

Again, Dark mage is an extra they added. And Cord with favoritism turns out far better then any Baron in Echoes with favoritism.

What else do you need to hear. The class has no advantages at all, magic users are super common in Celica's route and Alm's route after act 1(the prologue chapters). The Duma faithful, the main enemy group is made up almost entirely of Arcanists, witches, and Cantors. The picture above is one of the early chapters in the game.

In Hard mode, the enemy Mages are buffed even further with incredible attack and a 1-3 range spell is added to enemy magic users.

Soldier NEVER shows up on any recommend promotion list, every faq says not to promote anyone to soldier. The Soldier line is literally the Cavalry line but without movement. There's ZERO advantage to that from any perspective.

You admit to not even playing neither Gaiden or Echoes, so you can't say the Soldier class line isn't bad or that enemy magic users aren't common. There are even chapters with enemies that summon witches.

It's true that the Demon King is mentioned repeatedly, but the Demon King doesn't actually become relevant until near the end of the game, since Grado is the main villain for most of it  Also, I can count the amount of fearsome monster classes Sacred Stones has on one hand, and those monsters happen to not be seen until very late in the game. Safe to say I'd be more wary of whatever skill-induced sabotage Faceless can throw at me or the Stoneborn's massive range than those.

Maybe, but think about who you're addressing - I've seen enough bad fighters to the point where I'm jaded on the subject. For Pete's sake, there's a damn REASON why infantry axe users are my least favorite classes!

I don't know if you're talking about New Mystery here, but SD only had about two axe dracos and two axe heroes that I can remember.

Extra, schmextra. Doesn't excuse it being laughable as a class, far as I'm concerned.

Edited September 5, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Emperor Hardin]

28 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

It's true that the Demon King is mentioned repeatedly, but the Demon King doesn't actually become relevant until near the end of the game, since Grado is the main villain for most of it  Also, I can count the amount of fearsome monster classes Sacred Stones has on one hand, and those monsters happen to not be seen until very late in the game. Safe to say I'd be more wary of whatever skill-induced sabotage Faceless can throw at me or the Stoneborn's massive range than those.

Maybe, but think about who you're addressing - I've seen enough bad fighters to the point where I'm jaded on the subject. For Pete's sake, there's a damn REASON why infantry axe users are my least favorite classes!

I don't know if you're talking about New Mystery here, but SD only had about two axe dracos and two axe heroes that I can remember.

Extra, schmextra. Doesn't excuse it being laughable as a class, far as I'm concerned.

Its made clear early on that Riev is in service of him and that Grado has some sort of connection.

At least Sacred Stones some monster classes that are legitimately intimidating. And the monsters don't even have skills on the regular difficulties, even with that, they are still much weaker then any of the human enemies on that same difficulty level. Its absurd to whale against Sacred Stones for easy monster class enemies, when EVERY Fire Emblem game has monsters as weak enemies that rely on numbers.

Also Sacred Stones has Shadowshot and similar siege magic in the hands of Mogall and Gorgon units.

The infantry axe users, like Barst, in both Shadow Dragon and New Mystery are some of the best in the game.

I'm talking about generic enemy units, not playable characters or named bosses.

You keep saying Dark Mage isn't an extra, yet do nothing at all to prove your point...

Nohrian Soldiers in Fates are a terrible class, proof that the game has such bad class balance!

The DS Dark Mage is NOT laughable as a class as has been stated MANY times. Cord and Etzel aren't spectacular in Shadow Dragon, but they are far from Echoes Baron, a 4 movement class in a game filled with enemies that can absolutely destroy them.

The entire Soldier class line in Echoes IS laughable. Shadow Dragon balanced classes from the original and added another class as an extra. Echoes made the bad class far worse and the good classes too good. 

No matter how much you dance around it, the DS remakes greatly balanced the classes of the original classic game and added a new class line as a bonus. Something Echoes did not do.

Edited September 5, 2017 by Emperor Hardin

[Magical Glace]

Answering this is harder than I thought it would be because the truth is all of them have wasted potential somewhere, and it's hard to quantify "missed potential" for me... so I'll just list cases of missed potential and see if I can draw a conclusion from there:

FE6: This game needed more non-seize maps, especially coming off the heels of FE5.  As is, the only non seize chapter's are Idoun's map and some Defend Trial maps.  Also, Roy not promoting at 16/x is a massive missed opportunity to make him suck a bit less gameplaywise.  The Scouring backstory, while interesting as is, could have been expanded more and spread throughout the plot better rather than being an exposition dump in Chapter 24.  Paired endings besides with Roy would be nice (including some really obvious ships like Rutger/Clarine and Noah/Fir).  

FE7: Why is Lyn Hard the same as Lyn Normal, except without tutorials?  Can't we have an actual Lyn Hard?  Also, there should have been maps exclusive to Eliwood mode that don't have Hector counterparts, the only ones I can think of are Chapter 11 and Valorous Roland.  Also either give Lyn Mulagir/Murgleis, or make Eliwood a lance lord, hand him Maltet, and give Durandal to Lyn.  

FE8: One thing FE13/14 did right was allow the player to return to the World map from the prep screen.  From a story standpoint, we learn hardly anything about the five Heroes who backed up Morva.  We only know two of their names for crying out loud.  At least we know the names of all twelve of Jugdral's Crusaders, or all eight of Elibe's Divine Generals.

FE9: Honestly I don't know what I'd consider a missed opportunity here (because my main problem with the game is simply finding it boring), but I guess it was Ashnard.  He was so detached from the protagonists.  His social Darwinism wasn't that interesting to me.  Just make him feel more involved somehow other than "the strong should rule so I'm gonna try conquering the continent and waking up a dark god."

FE10: This is not a game exclusively about Micaiah, and it should have been.  Micaiah is a much more interesting protagonist than Ike, the fact she gets shoved out of the spotlight by him later is a massive and glaring missed opportunity for her as a character and is a rather large factor in my dislike of Ike.  In fact, the entire Dawn Brigade missed out on development and that sucks because their website backgrounds are interesting enough.

FE11: They could have done so much with the Archanea cast in this remake, and they just... didn't, they're still basically as blank slate as they were in FE1.  Contrast Shadows of Valentia, where the cast now have much more to their histories and personalities than in FE2.  

FE13: The Future Past DLC should have been expanded to be the second half of the main story, it's by far the best part of it and it's criminal that it's so short.  Lunatic + should not have been "RNG Festival" in terms of how enemies get skills, rather what enemy gets what should have been predetermined and thoroughly playtested to ensure maximum fair challenge without relying on luck.  

FE14: Most of the wasted potential here is from a story standpoint, so I'll leave it at "if this was an actually morally grey conflict about two nations who just can't agree, the story would be so much better than it was.  Valla and Anankos being added squandered potential for an actual neither route.  Conquest should not have involved slime monster Garon or magic throne motivated invasions."  I'll also throw in that Camilla/Ryouma could have been so much better than "I love Corrin more than you."  They could have talked about the differences between growing up in Nohr's court vs growing up in Hoshido's.  Not only would that make Nohr and Hoshido more like actual places by telling us something about the domestic politics of the nations, but it'd add a Camilla support where she doesn't go on about Corrin.  We need more focus on the more interesting parts of her character, after all.

 

Based on everything I've said here, I guess I lean toward FE10 or FE14.  FE10 because of Micaiah getting the shaft and FE14 because of the fact most things about Fatesland could have been interesting if they were talked about more than 0-2 seconds and the plot that was advertised didn't happen.

8 hours ago, X-Naut said:

No support conversations is less of an issue than toning up the notions of your characters being disposable with gaiden requirements and generic replacements.

When I first played FE11 back when it came out, the issue of no supports or base convos, or anything really resulting in 95% of the cast being blank was way more noticeable than the gaidens and generic replacements because I didn't even realize they existed.  So in general, I'd say the lack of dialogue for everybody is a more pressing problem, if only because it's the most obvious problem to someone casually playing the game.

All three of those things are incredibly lame though

[Emperor Hardin]

5 minutes ago, Glaceon Mage said:

FE7: Why is Lyn Hard the same as Lyn Normal, except without tutorials?  Can't we have an actual Lyn Hard?  Also, there should have been maps exclusive to Eliwood mode that don't have Hector counterparts, the only ones I can think of are Chapter 11 and Valorous Roland.  Also either give Lyn Mulagir/Murgleis, or make Eliwood a lance lord, hand him Maltet, and give Durandal to Lyn.  

Allegedly the prototype had Eliwood as a Lance lord on a horse, while there is an animation of Lyn using Durandal.

You know Lance Eliwood and Durandal Lyn combined with Lyn getting a non prologue campaign alongside Eliwood and Hector would've been great. Unused potential in an already great game.

6 minutes ago, Glaceon Mage said:

All three of those things are incredibly lame though

While I agree on the Gaiden requirements and lack of character focus, I actually like the generic units as it added a whole new play style.

[Harvey]

10 hours ago, NinjaMonkey said:

Shadow Dragon. They had a chance to completely remake the game from scratch, but they instead decided to be as faithful as possible to the original game.

Being faithful to the original has nothing to do with the game having wasted potential. Its the other features that weren't in the original that MAKES it wasted.

For me, it is probably Fates: Revelation. In theory, it tires to sum up the overall plot but the gameplay side of it seems redundant as you get ALL units combined where majority of them come at terrible times making it more like a grind fest instead of actual tactics.

I can also argue Birthright but then again, there's a reason for its existence.

 

[Shadow Mir]

6 hours ago, Aya Shameimaru said:

It was close to say FE11 because it is a lazy remake, but since it's a remake it'd be unfair to expect seeing many improvements. I mean it has a few like weapon triangle and weapon weight. 

Bold: Even though we're talking about a game from 1990 here? Are you freaking kidding me???

The rest: Personally, I wouldn't exactly call adding the weapon triangle much of an improvement as far as SD goes when everyone and their grandma uses lances. . . Hell, I dare say a remake adding a mechanic the game wasn't originally designed around can do more harm than good.

Edited September 5, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Etrurian emperor]

I think the most obvious and most damming example is Shadow dragon.

A remake was the perfect time to characterize Marths world and rise them up to the standard of the newer games. I wasn't expecting Tellius writing but characters on par with the GBA ones or at the very least with the Jugdral cast should have been easy to do. But this chance wasn't taken and most characters who were blank slates in the NES era remained blank slates in the Remakes or very clearly lagged behind in every way compared to other characters. This becomes a bigger problem when crossovers started to rely on Shadow Dragon characters so much.

It being a remake makes the problem worse rather then better. If a remake won't fix the biggest flaws of the original then when will those flaws ever be fixed? 

Fates is also a case of wasted potential. It had such a great premise so its actually incredibly weird that it has all gone so wrong. The biggest problem to me is that there is a lot of good in Fates and that its dragged down by the bad.
Leo and Takumi are great characters but must work in a terrible story, Xander is promising but the story insist on dragging him down and most of the kids are actually really great characters but are forced to be chained to that deaprealm nonsense. 

[Reality]

FE1 I'll call it Blade of Light so it isn't confused with FE11. 

Very hard to overlook that Rebelstar (1986) and Pool of Radiance (1988) had already been released when the first Fire Emblem appeared. Set many bad precedents for the emerging SRPG genre, especially regarding enemy AI and growth/level up systems. While the later Famicom / Super Famicom games had a high level of experimentation. FE3 and to a lesser extent FE5 "locked in" many of the mechanics that would become core to FE and Japanese SRPGs in general until the paradigm for the first international games on the  GBA shifted to the philosophy of "back to basics". 

[Harvey]

57 minutes ago, Reality said:

FE1 I'll call it Blade of Light so it isn't confused with FE11. 

Very hard to overlook that Rebelstar (1986) and Pool of Radiance (1988) had already been released when the first Fire Emblem appeared. Set many bad precedents for the emerging SRPG genre, especially regarding enemy AI and growth/level up systems. While the later Famicom / Super Famicom games had a high level of experimentation. 

Personally, I think its kinda unfair to say FE1 lacked potential considering its the one that started FE as a whole and that it was released on a system that wasn't suppose to do a lot of things like AI for example(I can't think of NES games that used enemy AI the same as FE btw.).

Also, since console gaming is more of Japan's thing, FE to them is kinda what would make SRPG popular. Also, the game's you mentioned...I don't think they have permadeath..or atleast have characters you care about do they?

Don't get me wrong, FE1 isn't perfect as there are a lot of things that even other NES games could do better such as the character portraits being god awful for example. But comparing it to Pool of Radiance is like apples and oranges.

And one more to note. SRPG means simulation rpg which is something that FE kinda did on its own...

4 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

It being a remake makes the problem worse rather then better. If a remake won't fix the biggest flaws of the original then when will those flaws ever be fixed? 

It does fix most of the issues that FE1 had such as, the ability to know the enemy distance, reclassing becoming a thing etc. What it does instead is worsening the game further by adding design flaws that were redundant to begin with. I haven't played FE11 but looking at the footage, FE1 is easily the more preferred one over this for good reasons.

 

Edited September 5, 2017 by Harvey

[Interdimensional Observer]

3 minutes ago, Harvey said:

It does fix most of the issues that FE1 had such as warp staves being less broken

Uh what? Warpskip is alive and kicking like a Radio City Rockette in FE11. If it is at all nerfed, it went from hitting like Hydrogen bomb to a Uranian one, either way thousands are dead.

[Magical Glace]

11 minutes ago, Harvey said:

It does fix most of the issues that FE1 had such as warp staves being less broken,

>FE11 Warp

>Not Broken

???????

Have you done any research on FE11?  Warp comes in Chapter 3, has 7 uses, infinite range, and you can get more than one.  It's one of the biggest reasons Lena, the Cleric who comes with it, is considered one of the best units in the game.

Also why do you think people prefer FE1 over FE11?  Because as far as I'm aware, FE11 is considered a step up by most over clunky NES game.

Edited September 5, 2017 by Glaceon Mage

[Harvey]

@Interdimensional Observer @Glaceon Mage

Ah sorry about that. Fixed it.

Still my point stands for FE11.

 

[Etrurian emperor]

17 minutes ago, Harvey said:

It does fix most of the issues that FE1 had such as warp staves being less broken, the ability to know the enemy distance, reclassing becoming a thing etc. What it does instead is worsening the game further by adding design flaws that were redundant to begin with. I haven't played FE11 but looking at the footage, FE1 is easily the more preferred one over this for good reasons.

Now this is probably a very personal thing since people also criticize Echoes for not updating the gameplay enough but I personally find that updating the characters, story and world should be a priority. I think things like being able to see enemy distance, the weapon triangle and some more balance are nice but to me the sense of your army being individuals with their own tales is more of a core feature of Fire emblem. Shadow dragon didn't just ignored this feature but went against it through their gaidens. 

Echoes could have done more for its gameplay but I don't really care. It lifted some blank slates no one cared about up to become a very charming and well liked bunch, and added a story where there previously barely was one. To me that means Echoes successfully updated itself. Shadow Dragon updated the bare gameplay essentials but it barely expanded on the blank slates we had before and used a very archaic way of telling its very basic story. I don't think the gameplay changes SD made can make up for its lack of character and as such I don't find the game to have a ''soul''. 

But that's kind of a personal thing to some extend. Depends on what you're looking for in a Fire emblem I guess. 

Edited September 5, 2017 by Etrurian emperor

[Harvey]

2 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Now this is probably a very personal thing since people also criticize Echoes for not updating the gameplay enough but I personally find that updating the characters, story and world should be a priority. I think things like being able to see enemy distance, the weapon triangle and some more balance are nice but to me the sense of your army being individuals with their own tales is more of a core feature of Fire emblem. Shadow dragon didn't just ignored this feature but went against it through their gaidens. 

Echoes could have done more for its gameplay but I don't really care. It lifted some blank slates no one cared about up to become a very charming and well liked bunch, and added a story where there previously barely was one. To me that means Echoes successfully updated itself. Shadow Dragon updated the bare gameplay essentials but it barely expanded on the blank slates we had before and used a very archaic way of telling its very basic story. I don't think the gameplay changes SD made can make up for its lack of character and as such I don't find the game to have a ''soul''. 

But that's kind of a personal thing to some extend. Depends on what you're looking for in a Fire emblem I guess. 

I understand your opinion in this. The thing is though that Echoes just did the exact same thing only just giving it a fresh look.

Gaiden pretty much did everything more of RPG. The only thing that Echoes really did if you think about it is the presentation, making units more balanced to make the game accessible and fixing some few tweaks here and there. The game didn't really had to add supports since the game gives you prism logs which give you back stories of various characters. Not saying that the supports are bad here but I'm just saying that its kinda pointless since again, nearly every character talks during cutscenes.

Echoes basically did what Shadow Dragon was suppose to do. I get your point but if we're going to blame FE11 for being faithful to the original being its main flaw, that's not really true because again, the process to access gaiden chapters, making the game easier regardless of difficulty being selected and its horrid graphics are what caused the game to not do well which is kinda odd since this game outsold both PoR and RD combined.

 

[Magical Glace]

23 minutes ago, Harvey said:

making the game easier regardless of difficulty being selected

.......?  Last I checked, FE1's clunky UI aside, the enemies are much tougher in FE11's higher difficulties than in FE1 and things like statboosters are way less busted in FE11.  There's still ways to break FE11 (Win Spear + forges = god), but from what I've seen most consider FE1 easier than it.

 

[Shadow Mir]

 

9 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Its made clear early on that Riev is in service of him and that Grado has some sort of connection.

At least Sacred Stones some monster classes that are legitimately intimidating. And the monsters don't even have skills on the regular difficulties, even with that, they are still much weaker then any of the human enemies on that same difficulty level. Its absurd to whale against Sacred Stones for easy monster class enemies, when EVERY Fire Emblem game has monsters as weak enemies that rely on numbers.

Also Sacred Stones has Shadowshot and similar siege magic in the hands of Mogall and Gorgon units.

The infantry axe users, like Barst, in both Shadow Dragon and New Mystery are some of the best in the game.

I'm talking about generic enemy units, not playable characters or named bosses.

You keep saying Dark Mage isn't an extra, yet do nothing at all to prove your point...

Nohrian Soldiers in Fates are a terrible class, proof that the game has such bad class balance!

The DS Dark Mage is NOT laughable as a class as has been stated MANY times. Cord and Etzel aren't spectacular in Shadow Dragon, but they are far from Echoes Baron, a 4 movement class in a game filled with enemies that can absolutely destroy them.

The entire Soldier class line in Echoes IS laughable. Shadow Dragon balanced classes from the original and added another class as an extra. Echoes made the bad class far worse and the good classes too good. 

No matter how much you dance around it, the DS remakes greatly balanced the classes of the original classic game and added a new class line as a bonus. Something Echoes did not do.

They do establish that early on... but the monster fights before lategame felt more like filler anyway, especially the ones in Eirika route.

And like I said, the few that were a legit threat (Dracozombies and Gorgons) didn't show up until the game was nearly over.

True enough, except for the part where this was during the point in time where most enemies were weak statistically (ffs, even in lategame, you still see enemies that don't even get out of double digit Hit... on Hard Mode), and evade was reliable; it doesn't really help matters that terrain was plentiful. To drive the point home... here are some stats:

Spoiler

Lvl 5 Arch Mogalls: 28-30 HP, 21-22 Mag, 11-12 Skl, 10-11 Spd, 5-6 Lck, 5 Def, 14-16 Res

Shadowshot: 34-35 Atk, 94-97 Hit, 5-6 Avoid, 10-11 Crit, 0 AS

Crimson Eye: 35-36 Atk, 94-97 Hit, 9-12 Avoid, 10-11 Crit, 2-3 AS

Lvl 6 Gorgon: 33 HP, 25 Mag, 11 Skl, 12 Spd, 9 Lck, 9 Def, 16 Res

Demon Surge: 36 Atk, 106 Hit, 33 Avoid, 5 Crit

Stone: 91 Hit, 33 Avoid

Lvl 7 Gorgons: 32-33 HP, 25-26 Mag, 12-13 Skl, 10-12 Spd, 8-9 Lck, 8-9 Def, 17-19 Res

Demon Surge: 36-37 Atk, 108-110 Hit, 28-33 Avoid, 6 Crit

Stone: 93-95 Hit, 28-33 Avoid

These are enemies from the second to last chapter.

Well, Barst is one of the few good axe infantry units that I can think of (and this is in the ENTIRE SERIES, mind you)... but I'm struggling to think of any other good ones in the DS games. Anyways, my issue with Fighters in general is that most of them are, in a nutshell, good HP and Strength, but mediocre to outright awful everything else - needless to say, that ain't gonna take them far.

I'm not seeing your point about the Nohrian Lancers, because they're enemy only, for one, and second, you don't even see them much in the story (the ONE instance you actually see them in the story maps is in chapter 27 on Conquest... and they have both Counter AND Magicounter (not the actual skill name, but meh), thus making them a risk to engage on your turn unless you have good non-magic ranged options; harder difficulties give them Spendthrift, which allows them to do 10 extra damage AND take 10 less damage for that battle when they attack).

One of those is a Gaiden character, and the other is likely better off as a physical class. Now answer me honestly, why would I want to use Sorcerer Cord over, say, Berserker Cord or Horseman Cord?

And yet SD still dropped the ball in some aspects class wise (See: Mages, Myrmidons). I'm not saying that Echoes' class balance doesn't have its problems, but it's not like SD's class balance is all that great, because it ain't. That being said, whilst I haven't played Echoes yet (I still have other stuff I want), I HAVE watched someone play it on Youtube. And you're leaving me with something I want answered - you said earlier that enemies in Echoes Hard mode tend to have anti-armor capabilities. Does this amount to enemies packing anti-armor weapons, weapons with anti-armor combat arts, or both?

Edited September 5, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia