Clones and Default Movesets

[Deva Ashera]

Semi-Clones I feel work best, a handful of different attacks, a few unique animations..essentially make them like Luigi is to Mario in Smash.

1 hour ago, Motendra said:

See now, the only thing about Alm possibly emulating Chrom being a no go is the simple fact that he's left handed. Otherwise, agreed

They could flip the animations possibly.

[HK Motendra]

4 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

It's honestly quite a shame, since Musou games don't really do template movesets unless you're really unimportant... You can't use a lance the same way you do with a naginata.

Doubly so. Seeing Hinoka scenes in action makes her so hype as the most badass pony I've ever seen. Clearly they should have left her as a Spear Fighter, instead

5 minutes ago, Deva Ashera said:

Semi-Clones I feel work best, a handful of different attacks, a few unique animations..essentially make them like Luigi is to Mario in Smash.

They could flip the animations possibly.

I'd rather he not be slapped onto Chrom's moveset purely for the fact he's one of few lords whose beginning class isn't "Lord"

[Deva Ashera]

1 minute ago, Motendra said:

I'd rather he not be slapped onto Chrom's moveset purely for the fact he's one of few lords whose beginning class isn't "Lord"

I think Alm would be Luigified by having a mixture of moves from Marth, Chrom, and others. I don't think class matters as much as how he fights in-game and in cutscenes. 

[Wildeye]

I'm getting the feeling that the movesets are tied more to the class or weapon. Which would make sense if the class change mechanic will allow us to change a character to any class and would explain why the movesets are so similar to each other.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Wildeye

[HK Motendra]

Just now, Deva Ashera said:

I think Alm would be Luigified by having a mixture of moves from Marth, Chrom, and others. I don't think class matters as much as how he fights in-game and in cutscenes. 

Thats precisely what I mean. He has his own animations to draw from, along with being a different class line all together. If he had to draw from anyone at all, a more fitting one would be a mercenary. Or, if they want to go the extra mile, Dread Fighters.

[Deva Ashera]

20 minutes ago, Motendra said:

Thats precisely what I mean. He has his own animations to draw from, along with being a different class line all together. If he had to draw from anyone at all, a more fitting one would be a mercenary. Or, if they want to go the extra mile, Dread Fighters.

Honestly, I'm betting that the main characters, the 'Lords', if you will, will have unique movesets.

[Arthur97]

1 hour ago, Motendra said:

I'd rather call it a lunge than a stab, but are ultimately the same thing, and he does do so in the cinematic against "Marth". No "poor Chrom" cause I'll be filling in for you as the equally opposite side of the spectrum!

Dammit! I'm usually good at catching myself >-<;

As far as normal attack strings, yes. Aside from maybe C1 or 2 (idr which one it is but I'm leaning toward C2), the rest is uncertain. We've yet to see any of Sakura's charge attacks, so again, its too early to tell.

I mean, Chrom has the advantage of being unlocked earlier, so early game he might still be my Link (highest level in HW), but I'll inevitably use Lucina a lot too. Plus, her specials look flashier.

1 hour ago, Deva Ashera said:

Semi-Clones I feel work best, a handful of different attacks, a few unique animations..essentially make them like Luigi is to Mario in Smash.

They could flip the animations possibly.

To be fair, Luigi is getting close to unique fighter status. He is what all clones should strive to be.

[Jedi]

Clone movesets have always irritated me in Warriors games espcially since the Orochi games exist, where they pretty much have unique/luigified movesets for around 90+ characters. 

Like KT has the creativity to do unique things for pretty much everyone there, so why not as much here? I mean from what we've seen only really Cordelia/Hinoka and Chrom/Lucina are particularly egregious examples (but Lucina does have reasons she fights so similar to Chrom). 

Its just the Cordelia/Hinoka situation that particularly bugs me (Leo and Elise, along with Takumi and Sakura seem to have at least a good chunk of differing moves), and will continue to do so, meanwhile Lyn and Ryoma look 100% different in terms of style despite both being Eastern Swordsmen/women in style, probably because they drew a bit from Lyns GBA animations and Fates SM's for Ryoma. 

I'm just worried that we'll get an overly bloated roster with Cordelia/Hinoka situations and it will irk the hell out of me, much like how DW6 completely dropped the ball after DW5. But to a lesser extent I guess?

[Arthur97]

So, which one of Cordelia/Hinoka is using their weapon wrong considering they use two different kinds of polearms.

[Anomalocaris]

Just now, Arthur97 said:

So, which one of Cordelia/Hinoka is using their weapon wrong considering they use two different kinds of polearms.

Hinoka.

Naginatas are for slicing motions, not thrusting like a spear.

[Arthur97]

Just now, Anomalocaris said:

Hinoka.

Naginatas are for slicing motions, not thrusting like a spear.

So...Cordelia is the original?

[Folt]

6 minutes ago, Arthur97 said:

So, which one of Cordelia/Hinoka is using their weapon wrong considering they use two different kinds of polearms.

 

5 minutes ago, Anomalocaris said:

Hinoka.

Naginatas are for slicing motions, not thrusting like a spear.

It's hard to say, actually, since their regular moveset contains some slashing motions too + the Hinokacopter.

[HK Motendra]

43 minutes ago, Folt said:

 

It's hard to say, actually, since their regular moveset contains some slashing motions too + the Hinokacopter.

So given that, it could be said that both are to some degree?

[NeonZ]

1 hour ago, Jedi said:

Its just the Cordelia/Hinoka situation that particularly bugs me (Leo and Elise, along with Takumi and Sakura seem to have at least a good chunk of differing moves), and will continue to do so, meanwhile Lyn and Ryoma look 100% different in terms of style despite both being Eastern Swordsmen/women in style, probably because they drew a bit from Lyns GBA animations and Fates SM's for Ryoma.

I actually wonder if Lyn might not be a Navarre clone, as weird as it is to mention a character who isn't even confirmed right now. The musou that she showed in the Direct clip was certainly unique and based on her critical animation from FE7, but the one she uses in the gameplay trailer shows her dual wielding, something she never did before, but was often associated with Navarre through artwork or other adaptations, even if not in-game.

Anyway, the obvious reason for clones here would be the large amount of characters in spite of this being a new game. It's for a similar reason DW6 or 7 (and now 9) are filled with clones. New movesets pretty much require recycling. DW8 only could make everyone unique because it was pretty much just adding more content to DW7. And the same goes to the Orochi Warriors 3 movesets. They're distinct because they can just build up on 7 (it also helps that only the DW cast needed that kind of addition, not the SW side).

Edited September 14, 2017 by NeonZ

[Jedi]

25 minutes ago, NeonZ said:

I actually wonder if Lyn might not be a Navarre clone, as weird as it is to mention a character who isn't even confirmed right now. The musou that she showed in the Direct clip was certainly unique and based on her critical animation from FE7, but the one she uses in the gameplay trailer shows her dual wielding, something she never did before, but was often associated with Navarre through artwork or other adaptations, even if not in-game.

Anyway, the obvious reason for clones here would be the large amount of characters in spite of this being a new game. It's for a similar reason DW6 or 7 (and now 9) are filled with clones. New movesets pretty much require recycling. DW8 only could make everyone unique because it was pretty much just adding more content to DW7. And the same goes to the Orochi Warriors 3 movesets. They're distinct because they can just build up on 7 (it also helps that only the DW cast needed that kind of addition, not the SW side).

7 and 9 have the excuses of being a brand new engine in both cases (which is why people aren't too against it) 6 had absolutely no excuse besides being lazy. And that's how I see Cordelia/Hinoka 100% laziness. Nothing more nothing less. Especially considering Hyrule Warriors had pretty much no duplicate movesets, now I'm aware this roster is going to be a fair bit bigger than HWs launch roster however HWs alternate weapons also had drastically different movesets.

it doesn't affect my overall enjoyment with the product, but it certainly feels cheap in comparison.

It's my only significant issue in this game right now.

[Tolvir]

2 hours ago, Jedi said:

Clone movesets have always irritated me in Warriors games espcially since the Orochi games exist, where they pretty much have unique/luigified movesets for around 90+ characters. 

Like KT has the creativity to do unique things for pretty much everyone there, so why not as much here? I mean from what we've seen only really Cordelia/Hinoka and Chrom/Lucina are particularly egregious examples (but Lucina does have reasons she fights so similar to Chrom). 

Its just the Cordelia/Hinoka situation that particularly bugs me (Leo and Elise, along with Takumi and Sakura seem to have at least a good chunk of differing moves), and will continue to do so, meanwhile Lyn and Ryoma look 100% different in terms of style despite both being Eastern Swordsmen/women in style, probably because they drew a bit from Lyns GBA animations and Fates SM's for Ryoma. 

I'm just worried that we'll get an overly bloated roster with Cordelia/Hinoka situations and it will irk the hell out of me, much like how DW6 completely dropped the ball after DW5. But to a lesser extent I guess?

I can definitely understand where that would be annoying, and definitely as lazy, but I think we have a bit of a different scenario here. Fire Emblem has never really had unique movesets for most characters. That is typically reserved for the Lord and maybe some villains. Even Xander and Ryoma used the default moveset of their class with a few exceptions. Fire Emblem has always put more emphasis on class movesets being what is unique, not the character. You could have 3 different sword wielders in Fire Emblem, but each of them has different animations, for example Swordmaster, Hero, and Master of Arms in Fates.

So why not translate that over to Warriors as far as FE Warriors is concerned? Instead of each character getting their own unique moveset, cutting down a potential roster, why not have each character use a default moveset of the class they are, with slight variations between them? Not only would this open up possiblities for characters that stood no chance, but also allow for multiple of each type without really harming a roster. Instead of splitting a cast by X game, now you split it up by class. All your Paladins here, all your Heroes here, Swordmasters there, etc. Fire Emblem has always handed out multiples of a class in the past, as I said in the original post in Fates alone you have 3 mercenaries at base, with another 2 capable of going into the Hero class, making for an effective 5 heroes before looking at reclassing. How would this really be any different?

Would that really be considered lazy from a development standpoint? Especially when you are looking at a character roster from each game that is enough to fuel 1 maybe even 2 Warriors games on their own?

EDIT: To really clarify what my mean, what if a FE Warriors was set up like this. You have a base of 10 classes. Lets say Paladin, Fighter, Hero, Swordmaster, General, Archer, Sage, Thief, Wyvern Rider, Pegasus Knight. From there they develop about 5 characters for each subtype, which right there is technically a 50 character roster, but as far as development was concerned only 10 unique movesets were created. So in reality only 10 characters. Would that really be a bad design as much as a smart one that really allows for Koei to tap into the Fire Emblem roster?

Edited September 14, 2017 by Tolvir

[Deva Ashera]

1 hour ago, Tolvir said:

I can definitely understand where that would be annoying, and definitely as lazy, but I think we have a bit of a different scenario here. Fire Emblem has never really had unique movesets for most characters. That is typically reserved for the Lord and maybe some villains. Even Xander and Ryoma used the default moveset of their class with a few exceptions. Fire Emblem has always put more emphasis on class movesets being what is unique, not the character. You could have 3 different sword wielders in Fire Emblem, but each of them has different animations, for example Swordmaster, Hero, and Master of Arms in Fates.

So why not translate that over to Warriors as far as FE Warriors is concerned? Instead of each character getting their own unique moveset, cutting down a potential roster, why not have each character use a default moveset of the class they are, with slight variations between them? Not only would this open up possiblities for characters that stood no chance, but also allow for multiple of each type without really harming a roster. Instead of splitting a cast by X game, now you split it up by class. All your Paladins here, all your Heroes here, Swordmasters there, etc. Fire Emblem has always handed out multiples of a class in the past, as I said in the original post in Fates alone you have 3 mercenaries at base, with another 2 capable of going into the Hero class, making for an effective 5 heroes before looking at reclassing. How would this really be any different?

Would that really be considered lazy from a development standpoint? Especially when you are looking at a character roster from each game that is enough to fuel 1 maybe even 2 Warriors games on their own?

EDIT: To really clarify what my mean, what if a FE Warriors was set up like this. You have a base of 10 classes. Lets say Paladin, Fighter, Hero, Swordmaster, General, Archer, Sage, Thief, Wyvern Rider, Pegasus Knight. From there they develop about 5 characters for each subtype, which right there is technically a 50 character roster, but as far as development was concerned only 10 unique movesets were created. So in reality only 10 characters. Would that really be a bad design as much as a smart one that really allows for Koei to tap into the Fire Emblem roster?

I thought about the same thing, honestly. Just slap on a few unique animations or attacks here or there and, bam, another character added to the roster without actually looking out of place considering characters always attack or move like other characters based on classes.

This could also help with DLC in the future, have one or two unique movesets (Lords, new class) and a handful of clones per pack.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Deva Ashera

[Tolvir]

3 minutes ago, Deva Ashera said:

I thought about the same thing, honestly. Just slap on a few unique animations or attacks here or there and, bam, another character added to the roster without actually looking out of place considering characters always attack or move like other characters based on classes.

This could also help with DLC in the future, have one or two unique movesets (Lords, new class) and a handful of clones per pack.

That was my thoughts, it would really allow for a good sized roster while keeping the development time low. Especially considering Fire Emblem's cast size. Fates alone has about 70 or so characters. Awakening has around 50, cant remember how much SD has. That already is 100 characters or more before you even start looking at the other 12 games in the series.

[SMinairo]

1 hour ago, Tolvir said:

I can definitely understand where that would be annoying, and definitely as lazy, but I think we have a bit of a different scenario here. Fire Emblem has never really had unique movesets for most characters. That is typically reserved for the Lord and maybe some villains. Even Xander and Ryoma used the default moveset of their class with a few exceptions. Fire Emblem has always put more emphasis on class movesets being what is unique, not the character. You could have 3 different sword wielders in Fire Emblem, but each of them has different animations, for example Swordmaster, Hero, and Master of Arms in Fates.

So why not translate that over to Warriors as far as FE Warriors is concerned? Instead of each character getting their own unique moveset, cutting down a potential roster, why not have each character use a default moveset of the class they are, with slight variations between them? Not only would this open up possiblities for characters that stood no chance, but also allow for multiple of each type without really harming a roster. Instead of splitting a cast by X game, now you split it up by class. All your Paladins here, all your Heroes here, Swordmasters there, etc. Fire Emblem has always handed out multiples of a class in the past, as I said in the original post in Fates alone you have 3 mercenaries at base, with another 2 capable of going into the Hero class, making for an effective 5 heroes before looking at reclassing. How would this really be any different?

Would that really be considered lazy from a development standpoint? Especially when you are looking at a character roster from each game that is enough to fuel 1 maybe even 2 Warriors games on their own?

EDIT: To really clarify what my mean, what if a FE Warriors was set up like this. You have a base of 10 classes. Lets say Paladin, Fighter, Hero, Swordmaster, General, Archer, Sage, Thief, Wyvern Rider, Pegasus Knight. From there they develop about 5 characters for each subtype, which right there is technically a 50 character roster, but as far as development was concerned only 10 unique movesets were created. So in reality only 10 characters. Would that really be a bad design as much as a smart one that really allows for Koei to tap into the Fire Emblem roster?

Yes, it's lazy, it doesn't matter if the main games are like this, those are animations, and it's like that because they aren't going to do special animations for each weapon of each job of character in a game with +50 characters. I say that but I'm fine with having lesser characters be semi-clones, Draug, Kellam, Benny having the same moveset, or Cordelia, Sumia and the whitewings, etc. But important characters, or at least those with special weapons should be unique, I don't like Sakura having attacks from Takumi, they don't suit her, I don't like Leo having a generic mounted mage moveset and little brynhild, gravity, earth and trees should be the base of his movesets not something for differenciating him from his sister.

[Deva Ashera]

7 minutes ago, Sbuscoz said:

Yes, it's lazy, it doesn't matter if the main games are like this, those are animations, and it's like that because they aren't going to do special animations for each weapon of each job of character in a game with +50 characters. I say that but I'm fine with having lesser characters be semi-clones, Draug, Kellam, Benny having the same moveset, or Cordelia, Sumia and the whitewings, etc. But important characters, or at least those with special weapons should be unique, I don't like Sakura having attacks from Takumi, they don't suit her, I don't like Leo having a generic mounted mage moveset and little brynhild, gravity, earth and trees should be the base of his movesets not something for differenciating him from his sister.

I'd rather have more characters over less, I don't care if a few share a handful of animations. We've already seen that with Elise and Sakura having their own moves. Leo also has generic moves if equipped with any other Tome (granted, the casting animation is the same regardless), which you have been shown able to do in this game.

It's only lazy if it was done out of laziness, I feel this was done more out of a desire to have a large roster like in Fire Emblem. 

Would you call the main Fire Emblem series lazy due to characters sharing animations?

Edited September 14, 2017 by Deva Ashera

[Tolvir]

22 minutes ago, Sbuscoz said:

Yes, it's lazy, it doesn't matter if the main games are like this, those are animations, and it's like that because they aren't going to do special animations for each weapon of each job of character in a game with +50 characters. I say that but I'm fine with having lesser characters be semi-clones, Draug, Kellam, Benny having the same moveset, or Cordelia, Sumia and the whitewings, etc. But important characters, or at least those with special weapons should be unique, I don't like Sakura having attacks from Takumi, they don't suit her, I don't like Leo having a generic mounted mage moveset and little brynhild, gravity, earth and trees should be the base of his movesets not something for differenciating him from his sister.

I agree with you on the important characters. Lords should have unique movesets, as they do in their own game. But I really do not think you can call this lazy.. Not every character needs to be really unique, as my point was we have 5 potential heroes in Fates without taking into account reclassing. Do each of those 5 potential Heroes need their own unique moveset, or should we create a Hero moveset that each of them use with a small amount of variation in each? Option 1 means maybe 2 of those characters  actually make the cut, option 2 means that potentially all 5 make the cut. I think I would take option 2. Keep in mind we are dealing with a series here that has upwards of 300+ characters and growing as its overall roster. Thats not including remake and sequel variations.

Its not called being lazy. Its called being efficient. It only becomes lazy once the motivation behind it was wanting to cut corners. But if the motivation was an attempt to get every Fire Emblem character as possible into the game, can you really call that lazy?

Edited September 14, 2017 by Tolvir

[Zangetsu]

Yeah clones, cuz this game could always generate more controversy about a game that people over reacting to. Why don't we add Wry while we're at it, since we're severely lacking SD's & MoE's rep.

[Seazas]

Since clones are being a thing in this title (Yay!)

There's absolutely no excuse on passing up Cain, Abel, Jagen and Gordin (Draug's a shoe-in)

Not only will they not take much effort but it'll complete Marth's beginning of the game squad like they did with Awakening and Fates.

Camus has his Gradivus for his specials so there's no way the other horse chars can replicate that and somewhat have specials of their own

I will be so pleased if that's the case. 

[Tolvir]

33 minutes ago, Peaceful_User said:

Since clones are being a thing in this title (Yay!)

There's absolutely no excuse on passing up Cain, Abel, Jagen and Gordin (Draug's a shoe-in)

Not only will they not take much effort but it'll complete Marth's beginning of the game squad like they did with Awakening and Fates.

Camus has his Gradivus for his specials so there's no way the other horse chars can replicate that and somewhat have specials of their own

I will be so pleased if that's the case. 

I can see them doing that for sure. they are all connected to Marth, and it would give us some nice variation on the roster, we dont even have lance cavs yet.

Camus on the other hand might be a post release addition. Hyrule Warriors added its villains to the roster in a free update rather than the base game, so that may very well be the case here.

[Seazas]

3 minutes ago, Tolvir said:

I can see them doing that for sure. they are all connected to Marth, and it would give us some nice variation on the roster, we dont even have lance cavs yet.

Camus on the other hand might be a post release addition. Hyrule Warriors added its villains to the roster in a free update rather than the base game, so that may very well be the case here.

They better! It'd make no sense otherwise! Plus I want to see Cain + Abel and Gordin + Draug finally get supports for once! New Mystery fucked them over in terms of interaction. The OGs like Cain and Abel for example couldn't even interact with each other! (Cain trying to comfort a hurt Abel for betraying his country would've been grand). That is one of my many problems with New Mystery. 

Jagen is the Frederick to Marth's Chrom.

Cain and Abel started an entire archetype making them landmarks and they're at the beginning of Marth's tale too. No excuses.

That's what I was saying. Camus might've been made first tho since he's a villain and has a bigger role in the story. 

Edited September 15, 2017 by Peaceful_User