SF Official - FE Games Opinion Poll (Sheet in OP)

[Nobody]

49 minutes ago, Slumber said:

lied to(Eldigan)

How was Eldigan lied to? Eldigan knew perfectly well that Chagall was awful and that he had killed his own father.

Hell, he had even been imprisoned by Chagall for basically no reason before fighting Sigurd. I mean, this is sort of off topic but I don't see how Eldigan is particularly smarter or more believable than Selena.

EDIT: I just realized that by "lied to", you probably mean about the supposed 1 year deadline Sigurd was offered to leave Agustria, but I don't see how that affects Eldigan's character in any way. If anything, that should show him even more how awful Chagall was.

Edited November 26, 2017 by Nobody

[Slumber]

6 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Quick correction, it's Emperor Vigarde who she swore loyalty to (and loves). 

True(I edited my post some more to reflect that), but as it is when you fight Selena, she's under Lyon's command. She has no real reason to do what she does, and the fact that she was totally willing to kill Duessel before Valter showed up? It's so bizarre. 

[Slumber]

9 minutes ago, Nobody said:

How was Eldigan lied to? Eldigan knew perfectly well that Chagall was awful and that he had killed his own father.

Hell, he had even been imprisoned by Chagall for basically no reason before fighting Sigurd. I mean, this is sort of off topic but I don't see how Eldigan is particularly smarter or more believable than Selena.

He was getting dicked around by Chagall through and through. Lachesis actually manages to get him to reconsider fighting Sigurd, and Eldigan goes to confront Chagall. 

Eldigan was dumb, but he wasn't unreasonable and completely out of place. Selena was. 

Maybe Eldigan isn't being "lied to", but Chagall definitely isn't honest with him. 

Edited November 26, 2017 by Slumber

[Zasplach]

7 hours ago, Jedi said:

I wasn't aware this was a Serious Discussion thread that required applied philosophy.

Sorry, I wasn't attempting to be flippant, I guess I was just saying let most anyone think what they're going to think.  You have the right to feel however you like about his opinions. 

  

[Icelerate]

4 hours ago, Slumber said:

This reasoning always bugs me. Lyon's hardly in the game, and everything in the story surrounding him is bad. I wouldn't count my blessings if I had to dig around in a mountain of manure to find a delicious chocolate bar.

SS's story is bad. The 3 chapters that are actually about Lyon are fine. But the other 25 suck.

A good litmus test for FE games is how believable their Camus is. Selena is one of the most unbelievable Camuses in the series, right up there with Birthright Xander. Most Camuses who get tied up with the baddies are either tricked(Lloyd/Linus), lied to(Eldigan), kept in the dark/staying for a potential loved one(Reinhardt) or are fighting for a "higher cause"(Zelgius). Something that makes you believe that they'd keep their knightly oaths in spite of the awful shit YOUR party knows about. Selena pledges allegiance to Grado, then mentions multiple times that the Lyon that's being corrupted by Fomortiis isn't who she swore allegiance to, continues to work alongside some of the most cartoonishly evil villains in the franchise, and then dies for literally no reason. There's not nearly as much emphasis on her "Knightly Duties", and she comes across as this random, pure hearted general who has to call homicidal maniacs like Caellach, cackling evil sorcerers like Riev and implied rapists like Valter her comrades. Duessel leaves. Glen dies TRYING to actually establish peace. Why the hell does Selena stay and do nothing?

It's a good indicator of SS' story in general. All over the place, incredibly shallow, and underdeveloped.

4

I don't think using a camus as a litmus test for whether a story is good makes much sense. Camuses are relatively minor characters for the most part. The litmus test you should use is the main villains and the main protagonists.  

[Slumber]

30 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

I don't think using a camus as a litmus test for whether a story is good makes much sense. Camuses are relatively minor characters for the most part. The litmus test you should use is the main villains and the main protagonists.  

"Hmmm... don't use this minor part of Sacred Stones that makes it look bad. Use this minor part that makes it look good!"

Yes, I'm calling Lyon minor. He may be the driving force of the game, but you spend SO much time doing nonsensical bullshit with the Grado generals, who are all abysmal except Duessel and Glen. Or, you spend SO much of the game fighting faceless monsters who don't progress the plot. Lyon doesn't come into focus until the very end, and even then, he's completely taken over in the finale, and the Lyon that people actually like is completely gone.

Using protagonists and villains isn't a great litmus test, either. People rank the Tellius stories highly, but people also call Ike the biggest Mary Sue, Micaiah unjustifiable, and Elincia pointless. Ashnard, the Begnion senators and Ashera also get a ton of flack. Just about the only main character in the Tellius games who doesn't seem to split the fanbase is Sephiran. Jugdral gets Sigurd and Seliph, who also cause a bit of a rift in the fanbase, while Raydrik is just power hungry and boring, despite similar consensus being FE4 and 5 generally having good stories. Inversely, people like Roy and Zephiel a lot, but you'd be hardpressed to find a lot of people going "zomg binding blade has the best story". Generally it's regarded as serviceable at best, and a half-assed ripoff at worst.

There are a lot of cases where FEs have strong stories despite having divisive protagonists and/or antagonists and vice-versa. Ideally you'd use narrative structure, pacing, and world building to judge a story(All of which, I'd also argue, Sacred Stones gets a big fat F on), but that takes a lot of time and effort. It isn't exactly the best way to judge the story as a whole, but Camuses generally manage to give a pretty concise story in the much grander story of the game. You can usually extrapolate the story of the Camus to reflect the quality of the story of the game they're in. If the Camus sucks, the whole story sucks(Eldigan's the closest to bucking this trend, since it's pretty easy to interpret him as being dumber than Bartre when you look at his role as a Camus. He's still better than Selena and Birthright Xander).

Edited November 26, 2017 by Slumber

[ping]

Frankly, I find Selena to be one of the better Camus characters out there. She at least has a reason for her stupid loyalty to her corrupted king. Nothing too cleverly written (Vigarde saved her starving hometown and that's about it), but that's more than OG Camus himself who is just loyal and that's all the reason there is for him to fight Marth.

I should say that I dislike the Camus archetype in general, especially if the game tries to make a character that willingly decides to support the Eeeevul Empire look sympathetic. The only ones that I actually find well-written are Lloyd and Linus, since the one you face first actually realizes that he has been tricked and wants to understand what's going on, while the second one has an understandable reason to go bloomin mad. So that means I do not _like_ Selena, I just don't see why she would be outstandingly bad for a Camus character when she's just Camus with a tiny bit of justification.

This also means that the Camus-Lackmus-Test does not work for me at all. The Tellius games combined still are my favourite in terms of story and writing, but none of the Camus-y characters (Shiharam, Hetzel, Bryce, and that Zelgius fanboy whose name I can't recall right now) impressed me that much, while I'm still more lukewarm more than anything else about FE7 despite liking the Black Fang brothers.

Finally, Lyon is not a "minor" character in FE8. He does not have much screentime himself, but he is still very much "present" in that the twins (well, mostly Eirika) place their hopes for peace on him and their relationship with him is established in the flashbacks. It's just not feasible to give Present!Lyon much more screentime, since he spends most of Eirika's route deceiving Eirika, and showing his true nature too early would just ruin that effect.

[Slumber]

18 minutes ago, ping said:

Finally, Lyon is not a "minor" character in FE8. He does not have much screentime himself, but he is still very much "present" in that the twins (well, mostly Eirika) place their hopes for peace on him and their relationship with him is established in the flashbacks. It's just not feasible to give Present!Lyon much more screentime, since he spends most of Eirika's route deceiving Eirika, and showing his true nature too early would just ruin that effect.

I wouldn't harp on Lyon's lack of screentime so much if nearly everyone who says they thought Sacred Stones had a passable story didn't hinge their entire argument on "Lyon's a good villain".

You'd think Lyon showed up in every damn chapter the way they mention how he salvages the story. Certainly more than "He shows up in like, 2 cutscenes before the endgame. And then is so far gone that he's nearly incomprehensible for most of the endgame."

Edited November 26, 2017 by Slumber

[bethany81707]

36 minutes ago, Slumber said:

I wouldn't harp on Lyon's lack of screentime so much if nearly everyone who says they thought Sacred Stones had a passable story didn't hinge their entire argument on "Lyon's a good villain".

You'd think Lyon showed up in every damn chapter the way they mention how he salvages the story. Certainly more than "He shows up in like, 2 cutscenes before the endgame. And then is so far gone that he's nearly incomprehensible for most of the endgame."

Think of it like a murder mystery. You don't want the bad guy running around doing bad guy things before the end of the story.

(...Classics were always hard reading.)

[Thane]

 

Clearly, Fire Emblem needs more villains like Kreia. I had hoped Azura would be like that, but sadly, that didn't happen.

[Codename Shrimp]

Something i would like to see in FE is something like

(Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky Major Spoilers!)

 

Richard from Trails in the Sky FC. Having a ''villain'' who wants a coup to make his country stronger and you stopping him, it becoming a fight of ideolgies instead of ''Good Prince vs. Evil Demon Dragon'' would be really cool. Add to it Politics and stuff, and you've an FE that is much better then 90% of the FE story wise.

Edited November 26, 2017 by Shrimperor

[Interdimensional Observer]

7 hours ago, Slumber said:

You'd think Lyon showed up in every damn chapter the way they mention how he salvages the story. Certainly more than "He shows up in like, 2 cutscenes before the endgame. And then is so far gone that he's nearly incomprehensible for most of the endgame."

He physically shows up in:

Eirika's and Ephraim's versions of C14.

Ephraim's C15 version.

C16- more so in Ephraim's version, Eirika's less so since Riev is there.

C17- prominently for both.

C18- again, prominently for both.

C20&21.

This is excluding his earlier (minor) Grado Keep appearances, and he never interacts with the heroes in 15 and 16.

This isn't a lot of appearances it should be admitted.

6 hours ago, bethany81707 said:

Think of it like a murder mystery. You don't want the bad guy running around doing bad guy things before the end of the story.

True, Sephiran did conceal his steps. You'd never know from PoR he gave Ashy the BK, his armor, tipped him off about the Medallion, gave him it and a heron, and possibly made the Blood Pact that killed Ashy's rivals to the throne.

10 hours ago, Slumber said:

Using protagonists and villains isn't a great litmus test, either. People rank the Tellius stories highly, but people also call Ike the biggest Mary Sue, Micaiah unjustifiable, and Elincia pointless. Ashnard, the Begnion senators and Ashera also get a ton of flack. Just about the only main character in the Tellius games who doesn't seem to split the fanbase is Sephiran. Jugdral gets Sigurd and Seliph, who also cause a bit of a rift in the fanbase, while Raydrik is just power hungry and boring, despite similar consensus being FE4 and 5 generally having good stories. Inversely, people like Roy and Zephiel a lot, but you'd be hardpressed to find a lot of people going "zomg binding blade has the best story". Generally it's regarded as serviceable at best, and a half-assed ripoff at worst.

There are a lot of cases where FEs have strong stories despite having divisive protagonists and/or antagonists and vice-versa. Ideally you'd use narrative structure, pacing, and world building to judge a story(All of which, I'd also argue, Sacred Stones gets a big fat F on), but that takes a lot of time and effort.

True. The earlier claims that FEs always have strong characters to compensate isn't exactly right. And Tellius, although having plenty of personal moments, is in RD at least focused on macrocosmic conflict and events. The cast too takes on a more ensemble quality, with each part much more than the protag and two or three lackeys talking.

Using the Camus as a litmus test- well FE7 might have a decent Camus, but Nergal is quite nonsensical one could argue. The whole of FE7 is him missing opportunities or running off on harebrained unnecessary schemes.

Spoiler

Here I think is outline of Nergal's opportunities: 

1. Tricks Ninian and Nils to crossing over the Dragon's Gate. Doesn't summon more dragons. Why? Probably not enough quintessence to control them, which would be reasonable if he was just testing out the Gate when Ninian and Nils came over. If he couldn't lure anyone through the Gate, he couldn't open it and collecting quintessence for the task would be meaningless.
2. Hector C21- Nergal tries using Ninian to open the Dragon's Gate. Despite not having started the war he was planning to get a massive amount of quintessence from, Nergal is able to get the necessary amount just from killing Elbert. Tries to kill LEH via the Fire Dragon summoned, but Nils interrupts the summoning and the Fire Dragon dies caught between dimensions. Before Nergal can kill LEH and recapture N&N, the dying Elbert stabs Nergal with what must be a random small knife badly enough that Nergal must flee and heal his wounds to the point he can control dragons again by gathering fresh quintessence, this is until Hector C29.
3. Nergal, who must have been keeping an eye on LEH the whole time, comes to take N&N after C29, and despite having the power to take both siblings and LEH, he agrees to Ninian's begging and takes only her. Leaving a "parting gift" of a magical blast that could have killed everyone, but didn't because Athos was there. Athos for some reason doesn't attack Nergal, which could have kept him from dragon summoning. With Ninian in tow and himself in good health, Nergal could have summoned dragons, but he doesn't. Nergal shifts Ninian and lets her run off to Eliwood.
4. This brings up the Hector C30 opportunity, where Nergal shows up after Ninian is killed. Why? Probably to collect the quintessence of her mentioned before, though he does say he's there for Nils too, since Ninian refused to obey him. Needing Ninian's obedience is odd since Nergal didn't need it back in HC21 when he brainwashed her, and the Fire Dragons he planned to summon certainly wouldn't obey him of their own accord. However, in showing up to mock Eliwood in his misery and get Ninian's essence and Nils, Nergal, just as he is about to kill LEH, is attacked by Athos for 5 displayed damage, in response to which he say: Nergal:
   “The purest fire… Flame breath. Very impressive, Archsage Athos. However… However, fire is no longer my foe! Look! Not even a legendary blade can cause me harm! At long last, I am impervious! Ha ha…ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!”
5. After this laugh, Nergal teleports away. And then tells Limstella the injury leaves him incapable of controlling dragons now, since he already went through the Black Fang's quintessence reserves. While it seems that Limstella's power augmentations were done shortly before LEH showed up for the final battle, I think this implies the Black Fang Super Replicas made with the BF essences of the originals were done earlier than that, unless they're cheap to make (then why didn't he make more?). Nergal fails to kill the heroes in the final battle, thus losing his final chance to control dragons and the world. His final statement (with the 19xx addition): 

• Nergal: “Why? Why must I lose? More power… I must be… stronger… I… Why? Why did I… want power? ……Quintessence? [No NoA, it's Aenir!] …Don’t…under…stand… but… Gaa… Not like this… I will not die…like this. With my last breath… tremble…and…despair. Hwah ha ha… Ha…ha ha ha…”

 

From this breakdown, I think Nergal's biggest mistakes are made in Hector C29-30. He could have fulfilled his plans without any issues then, but he messed up and let himself lose too much of the quintessence he so badly needed at that point. At least with C21, he didn't know Nils would show up or that Elbert could survive a quintessence extraction- nobody else does (barring Brendan sans NoF visiting perhaps).

Edit: I just realized there is an undefined period of time when Nergal had Elbert and N&N, yet he didn't open the Gate then. This opportunity was lost when N&N tried to escape Dread Isle. And despite having Elbert, Nergal still tried to start a war in Lycia, which provided the trail of connections which led LEH to Dread Isle. So, had Nergal abandoned his Lycia plans and just offered up Elbert, all would have gone over well for him. This is a flaw.

To add to this old analysis I did, his plan to kill Zephiel, while not so stupid since it almost worked (damn Nino and the heroes!), did end up providing LEH with a good deed that got them the location of the Shrine of Seals.

[Icelerate]

14 hours ago, Slumber said:

"Hmmm... don't use this minor part of Sacred Stones that makes it look bad. Use this minor part that makes it look good!"

Yes, I'm calling Lyon minor. He may be the driving force of the game, but you spend SO much time doing nonsensical bullshit with the Grado generals, who are all abysmal except Duessel and Glen. Or, you spend SO much of the game fighting faceless monsters who don't progress the plot. Lyon doesn't come into focus until the very end, and even then, he's completely taken over in the finale, and the Lyon that people actually like is completely gone.

Using protagonists and villains isn't a great litmus test, either. People rank the Tellius stories highly, but people also call Ike the biggest Mary Sue, Micaiah unjustifiable, and Elincia pointless. Ashnard, the Begnion senators and Ashera also get a ton of flack. Just about the only main character in the Tellius games who doesn't seem to split the fanbase is Sephiran. Jugdral gets Sigurd and Seliph, who also cause a bit of a rift in the fanbase, while Raydrik is just power hungry and boring, despite similar consensus being FE4 and 5 generally having good stories. Inversely, people like Roy and Zephiel a lot, but you'd be hardpressed to find a lot of people going "zomg binding blade has the best story". Generally it's regarded as serviceable at best, and a half-assed ripoff at worst.

There are a lot of cases where FEs have strong stories despite having divisive protagonists and/or antagonists and vice-versa. Ideally you'd use narrative structure, pacing, and world building to judge a story(All of which, I'd also argue, Sacred Stones gets a big fat F on), but that takes a lot of time and effort. It isn't exactly the best way to judge the story as a whole, but Camuses generally manage to give a pretty concise story in the much grander story of the game. You can usually extrapolate the story of the Camus to reflect the quality of the story of the game they're in. If the Camus sucks, the whole story sucks(Eldigan's the closest to bucking this trend, since it's pretty easy to interpret him as being dumber than Bartre when you look at his role as a Camus. He's still better than Selena and Birthright Xander).

6

But Selena is way more minor than Lyon. 

The same people who rank Tellius highly may not be the ones criticizing their main characters. Never said it is a great litmus test but it is certainly better than the camus litmus test. 

I agree with your third paragraph for the most part other than the camus part. 

12 hours ago, ping said:

Frankly, I find Selena to be one of the better Camus characters out there. She at least has a reason for her stupid loyalty to her corrupted king. Nothing too cleverly written (Vigarde saved her starving hometown and that's about it), but that's more than OG Camus himself who is just loyal and that's all the reason there is for him to fight Marth.

I should say that I dislike the Camus archetype in general, especially if the game tries to make a character that willingly decides to support the Eeeevul Empire look sympathetic. The only ones that I actually find well-written are Lloyd and Linus, since the one you face first actually realizes that he has been tricked and wants to understand what's going on, while the second one has an understandable reason to go bloomin mad. So that means I do not _like_ Selena, I just don't see why she would be outstandingly bad for a Camus character when she's just Camus with a tiny bit of justification.

This also means that the Camus-Lackmus-Test does not work for me at all. The Tellius games combined still are my favourite in terms of story and writing, but none of the Camus-y characters (Shiharam, Hetzel, Bryce, and that Zelgius fanboy whose name I can't recall right now) impressed me that much, while I'm still more lukewarm more than anything else about FE7 despite liking the Black Fang brothers.

Finally, Lyon is not a "minor" character in FE8. He does not have much screentime himself, but he is still very much "present" in that the twins (well, mostly Eirika) place their hopes for peace on him and their relationship with him is established in the flashbacks. It's just not feasible to give Present!Lyon much more screentime, since he spends most of Eirika's route deceiving Eirika, and showing his true nature too early would just ruin that effect.

3

The problem with Selena is that Myrrh tells her that her king has been corrupted, meaning the one she swore loyalty to is not the one who she fights for to the death against Ephraim. That's PIS just so that you get a boss in chapter 14E. 

I can understand why you dislike this archetype. Maybe that's why you don't like Micaiah in part 3 because she's the textbook definition of a camus. I do enjoy Lloyd and Linus a lot and also find them to be well-written camuses along with Dheginsea, not sure if he is one. 

Bryce is extremely idiotic but at least he's called out on it by Ashnard and Tauroneo. Though he isn't a character worth writing home about and is forgettable in the grand scheme of things. Hetzel is an interesting concept of a coward. There are many cowardly people in the real world but so few in FE so I think he's a pretty good character and unique for FE standards. Shiharam tried to find a better leader but he's a tragic example of a guy who ended up with an even worse leader and now has no way out because the previous country he defected from is now invading so he's stuck between two brick walls with no way out. Levail did question Zelgius a bit in part 3 like Sothe did to Micaiah. He may not be the most interesting camus but at least his loyalty is to someone, who from what is apparent, is an honourable person. 

[Noni]

I strongly disagree about Lyon being the only good Thing in SS. Orson and Caellach were also good Villains in my opinion, and while Valter wasn't deep or anything, he did his job well at being scary.

[Slumber]

20 hours ago, Icelerate said:

But Selena is way more minor than Lyon.

Again, I'm not arguing that. I am saying, though, that Camuses generally get small character arcs in their games that many characters don't, or if they do, it's tied to the main plot(IE main protagonists and antagonists), so trying to extrapolate there doesn't work as well.

And the quality of the Camus' arc in their game is USUALLY, in my opinion, indicative of the overall quality of writing in the game. Obviously it's not 1:1, but a decent Camus will usually be in a game with a decent or above story, and a bland/bad Camus will usually be in a game with bland/bad or worse writing.

11 minutes ago, Noni said:

I strongly disagree about Lyon being the only good Thing in SS. Orson and Caellach were also good Villains in my opinion, and while Valter wasn't deep or anything, he did his job well at being scary.

Not trying to sound aggressive here, but what was good about Orson or Caellach? Orson flips SO fast that it's really difficult to even get attached to him before he goes full-on depraved monster. The idea of going insane over your dead-wife, and then going even more insane when she's brought back as a zombie's not a bad one, but much like everything else in Sacred Stones, the writing just isn't there to make Orson convincing or as sympathetic/tragic as it tries to make him. The very first time when I played SS when I was a dumb 13 year old, even then I thought "Alright. Was I supposed to feel bad or something?" when Orson died.

Caellach, meanwhile, isn't quite as comically, finger-twidlingly evil as Valter or Riev, his whole thing still boils down to "Boy, I sure like killing. Especially if I get something out of it!", which is usually the kind of personality that gets relegated to one-off villains who get introduced and die in one chapter. Not a villain who interacts with you for half of the game and is one of the main villain's right hands. If anything, Carlyle, who dies immediately before him, and actually IS a one-off villain, would have been a more interesting way to do Caellach. Carlyle basically ends up doing the same thing that eventually leads to Caellach's final fight and death, and has the connection to Joshua, but has WAY more going on in that one chapter than Caellach has for the dozen chapters he's around for.

[ping]

39 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Caellach, meanwhile, isn't quite as comically, finger-twidlingly evil as Valter or Riev, his whole thing still boils down to "Boy, I sure like killing. Especially if I get something out of it!", which is usually the kind of personality that gets relegated to one-off villains who get introduced and die in one chapter.

Not really...? His shtick is ruthlessness - he wants to be king and he doesn't have any problem killing for his ambition, but the game does not suggest that he enjoys that part. Pretty sure that he has a line or two where he makes a point that he is not like Valter. His complete egocentrism is kind of a foil to Selena's complete loyalty and devotion to another person.

[Slumber]

13 minutes ago, ping said:

Not really...? His shtick is ruthlessness - he wants to be king and he doesn't have any problem killing for his ambition, but the game does not suggest that he enjoys that part. Pretty sure that he has a line or two where he makes a point that he is not like Valter. His complete egocentrism is kind of a foil to Selena's complete loyalty and devotion to another person.

I always assumed "I am not like Valter" was in reference to Valter's implied sexual threats and more sadistic nature.

Because Caellach does a whole lot of killing that he really doesn't need to if it wasn't for enjoyment. He kill subordinates just for the hell of it in the game(Big one being Aias), he kills Frelians who can't fight back, and he taunts Joshua with his mother's death, presumably just to get a rise out of him so that he can kill him easier??? I've never really understood the last one.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Slumber

[Interdimensional Observer]

The Gemstone Generals aren't all bad. I liked the setup of good half and evil half- each side having a parallel. Selena parallels Riev- both magic. Glen parallels Valter- both Wyverns. And Duessel parallels Caellach- both physical grounded units. Having six elite enemy generals sounds cool, and the pre-split buildup is great.

But not all of these characters are handled well.

Good:

Duessel is excellent- but he is later made a PC after all. So he doesn't count so much.

Valter gets a lot of screen time and is wonderfully psychotic and sadistic. That Cursed Lance thing in the Duessel support might undercut him actually, since why did he once have to be good?

Mid:

Caellach might be just an evil mercenary, but does do enough bad and says enough to make him limitedly memorable.

Selena is a second take on Brunya, one that is more developed (How many times does Brunya show up? Do we know why she loves Zephiel?). I wouldn't call her one of the better Gemstones though.

Low:

Glen. He exists. His argument with Valter is good, him and Cormag are good together, and his death on Eirika's route gives Cormag some nice drive and a good boss convo with Valter. However, Glen himself is terribly weak. He is a flying Duessel thats younger and has personality tweaks from that, but that is about it. He dies on Eirika's route before doing anything significant really, and he gets nothing on Ephraim's.

Riev- evil sorcerer of the week. Uses light magic, controls monsters, serves the Demon King, and got excommunicated from Rausten- not that we ever learn the details. Riev is generic as generic can be. And what was his plan for Rausten he tells Caellach he has in Landing at Taizel? All he does is a midnight attack after the heroes arrive there. I don't consider that a plan.

 

3 hours ago, Slumber said:

and he taunts Joshua with his mother's death, presumably just to get a rise out of him so that he can kill him easier??? I've never really understood the last one.

Their Eirika boss convo says nothing about Caellach doing that. He kills her because she didn't willingly give over the SS of Jehanna.

Spoiler

Joshua vs. Caellach (Eirika’s route)

Joshua:
“Caellach.”

Caellach:
“Hey! If it isn’t Joshua. It’s been a long time. Have you been well?”

Joshua:
“I’ve been all right. Still working as a mercenary. When did you get all proper and join the Grado army?”

Caellach:
“Didn’t I tell you? I wasn’t about to waste my life as a nameless soldier. Still, I think back on those days a lot lately… My axe and your sword… The two of us were a deadly pair, eh?”

Joshua:
“……”

Caellach:
“By the way… I know all about you, Joshua. Who you really are I mean. The prince of Jehanna, huh? When did you plan on sharing the wealth, you sneaky dog?”

Joshua:
“Listen… You can’t reduce a nation to loot waiting to be divided. And more importantly, I made a vow to my mother. I’m going to succeed her as ruler of my homeland. Hey Caellach… You’re the one who killed my mother, aren’t you?”

Caellach:
“Yeah… Sorry ’bout that. Things happen, you know? C’mon, Joshua, don’t hate me. This is war. There’s nothing you can do about it. Besides, grudges get in the way of work, right?”

Joshua:
“That’s true. It’s as you say. Listen Caellach… I’ve got to kill you now. Don’t hold it against me.”

Caellach:
“You arrogant… You haven’t changed a bit! I’ve always wanted to show you who’s better, Joshua. And I’m even stronger than I used to be. I’m gonna wipe that smug look off your face for good!”

As for Orson, true, we only get him in one chapter plus a few more lines before his betrayal is reveal. Orson wasn't a bad idea, but to make a betrayal meaningful, like a death meaningful, you have to establish a strong bond between the player and the betrayer/dead while they are live and good. Lilith's sacrifice in Fates anyone? If Orson betrayed later, things would be much better.

 

Handling major enemy generals isn't a problem only in FE8. Petrine (the second coming of Narcian) and the BK are well done in PoR, but Bertram and Bryce aren't so well developed. Ena, who does masquerade as a Daein general for a time, is okay (I wish RD brought up her tactical side more). Awakening: Yen'fay is trashy trashy trash waste of existence and potential. Mr. "I Love Inappropriate Touching" is awfully cartoonish. Cervantes is a joke that need be shaved from this world. 

FE8's problem- too many Gemstones, plus Vigarde, Orson, Lyon, and the Demon King for villains. The game only has 22 Chapters per playthrough- short by FE standards. And while the split route thing certainly helps Lyon and also gives others a little more time. It isn't quite enough.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Interdimensional Observer

[ping]

7 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

The Gemstone Generals aren't all bad. I liked the setup of good half and evil half- each side having a parallel. Selena parallels Riev- both magic. Glen parallels Valter- both Wyverns. And Duessel parallels Caellach- both physical grounded units. Having six elite enemy generals sounds cool, and the pre-split buildup is great.

Interesting - I always "paired" the Gemstones the way they were split by Vigarde initially (chapter 3):

• Riev and Duessel (defending the empire) are both traitors, Riev to Rausten and Duessel to Grado. The difference of course being that Riev is looking for revenge against Rausten, while Duessel doesn't have any such feelings
• Valter and Glen (capturing the twins) are the two of the Generals who interact with Eirika (well, I guess Selena potentially gives her a red gem) and, interestingly enough, are both swayed by her to go against Vigarde's orders. Glen because he has a working brain, and Valter because he is a sick fuck and wants to prolong the hunt.
• Selena and Caellach (destroying Frelia's stone) both have very humble origins (Selena grew up in a poor village, Caellach used to be a simple merc), but while Selena swore loyalty to Vigarde because he helped her village, Caellach is only interested in moving to the peak of society.

I didn't really register the gameplay parallels before, except that Glen has the wyvern rider promotion with the more noble-looking wyvern and Valter got the more twisted-looking one.

@Glen: Yeah, I don't like that he's just dropped in Ephraim's route, same with Selena on Eir. I guess it's because they want you to play through both routes, but it's still bothersome. :/ I do like Glen's scenes though - it's nice when an "enemy" character thinks for a second instead of just following orders. In the same vein, Cormag's realization that Valter tricked him is pretty great too.

3 hours ago, Slumber said:

Because Caellach does a whole lot of killing that he really doesn't need to if it wasn't for enjoyment. He kill subordinates just for the hell of it in the game(Big one being Aias), he kills Frelians who can't fight back, and he taunts Joshua with his mother's death, presumably just to get a rise out of him so that he can kill him easier??? I've never really understood the last one.

The Observer already covered most of what I would have answered. Caellach kills people because they're obstacles to him, no matter how small, but I still see that as extreme ruthlessness (it's the easiest way for himself, and he doesn't care about anyone else's life). I'll admit that his dialogue with Aias is kinda cryptic, though. Caellach states that he wants to cut a "chain to the past", which explains approximately nothing at all - one could speculate that Aias might have some dirt on Caellach, or that Caellach is afraid that Aias might have some ambitions of his own, but there really isn't anything solid in his statement.

[Slumber]

3 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Their Eirika boss convo says nothing about Caellach doing that. He kills her because she didn't willingly give over the SS of Jehanna.

  Reveal hidden contents

Joshua vs. Caellach (Eirika’s route)

Joshua:
“Caellach.”

Caellach:
“Hey! If it isn’t Joshua. It’s been a long time. Have you been well?”

Joshua:
“I’ve been all right. Still working as a mercenary. When did you get all proper and join the Grado army?”

Caellach:
“Didn’t I tell you? I wasn’t about to waste my life as a nameless soldier. Still, I think back on those days a lot lately… My axe and your sword… The two of us were a deadly pair, eh?”

Joshua:
“……”

Caellach:
“By the way… I know all about you, Joshua. Who you really are I mean. The prince of Jehanna, huh? When did you plan on sharing the wealth, you sneaky dog?”

Joshua:
“Listen… You can’t reduce a nation to loot waiting to be divided. And more importantly, I made a vow to my mother. I’m going to succeed her as ruler of my homeland. Hey Caellach… You’re the one who killed my mother, aren’t you?”

Caellach:
“Yeah… Sorry ’bout that. Things happen, you know? C’mon, Joshua, don’t hate me. This is war. There’s nothing you can do about it. Besides, grudges get in the way of work, right?”

Joshua:
“That’s true. It’s as you say. Listen Caellach… I’ve got to kill you now. Don’t hold it against me.”

Caellach:
“You arrogant… You haven’t changed a bit! I’ve always wanted to show you who’s better, Joshua. And I’m even stronger than I used to be. I’m gonna wipe that smug look off your face for good!”

 

Huh. Honestly, I remembered that conversation as being a lot more hostile(I don't really use the Myrmidons in SS, so it's probably been over half a decade since I put Joshua up against Caellach). Or at least more hostile before the last few lines. It does kind of show that Caellach looks back at the days when he and Joshua were mercenaries on the battlefield with fondness, though. Either way, yeah Caellach doesn't taunt him like I remembered.

Killing Aias and unarmed soldiers still stands, though. Neither of those is really ever justified, and while the Aias seems like it's leading to something, it never pays off. It's another thing that makes SS feel like they stopped writing half way through.

4 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Handling major enemy generals isn't a problem only in FE8. Petrine (the second coming of Narcian) and the BK are well done in PoR, but Bertram and Bryce aren't so well developed. Ena, who does masquerade as a Daein general for a time, is okay (I wish RD brought up her tactical side more). Awakening: Yen'fay is trashy trashy trash waste of existence and potential. Mr. "I Love Inappropriate Touching" is awfully cartoonish. Cervantes is a joke that need be shaved from this world.

I agree Bertram and Bryce don't feel like particularly fleshed out generals, but it NEVER feels like they're superseding Ashnard in terms or plot importance or screentime like the Gemstones do compared to Lyon. The Black Knight is the only one who does, but the Black Knight serves a purpose in the plot that NONE of the Gemstones even come close to.

I won't defend the quality of post-Gangrel antagonists in Awakening, but again, it doesn't feel like they get more attention and screentime than Walhart.

[Icelerate]

8 hours ago, Slumber said:

Again, I'm not arguing that. I am saying, though, that Camuses generally get small character arcs in their games that many characters don't, or if they do, it's tied to the main plot(IE main protagonists and antagonists), so trying to extrapolate there doesn't work as well.

And the quality of the Camus' arc in their game is USUALLY, in my opinion, indicative of the overall quality of writing in the game. Obviously it's not 1:1, but a decent Camus will usually be in a game with a decent or above story, and a bland/bad Camus will usually be in a game with bland/bad or worse writing.

2

Okay so I'll list the camuses from FE7-FE10 since I've played those four games.

FE7: Lloyd and Linus try to find evidence to indict Sonia and if one of them dies, they find reason to blame and fight the heroes. Also, their relationship is like Eliwood and Hector's which makes you think what if the duo were to switch roles.

FE8: Selena is dumb for following a dead corpse. 

FE9: Bryce is dumb but at least he's called out on it by Tauroneo and Ashnard himself. Shiharam tried to find a better country to serve but got screwed over and sandwiched by both Begnion and Daein so I can sympathize with his plight quite a bit. Also, Shiharam was a catalyst for growth to both Jill and Haar, both of whom are amazing characters. 

FE10: Levail followed Zelgius due to Zelgius being a good general from what is apparent. At least Levail had the guts to criticize Zelgius at a point which reminds me of Sothe and Soren. Hetzel is basically Makalov but on the evil side. He's a coward which makes him a nice contrast to brave characters. 

Overall I'd say FE7>FE10>FE9>FE8 when it comes to the quality of the camuses. Storywise, I'd say FE10>FE9>FE7>FE8 so I guess your camus litmus test was pretty accurate.  

[Slumber]

15 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Okay so I'll list the camuses from FE7-FE10 since I've played those four games.

FE7: Lloyd and Linus try to find evidence to indict Sonia and if one of them dies, they find reason to blame and fight the heroes. Also, their relationship is like Eliwood and Hector's which makes you think what if the duo were to switch roles.

FE8: Selena is dumb for following a dead corpse. 

FE9: Bryce is dumb but at least he's called out on it by Tauroneo and Ashnard himself. Shiharam tried to find a better country to serve but got screwed over and sandwiched by both Begnion and Daein so I can sympathize with his plight quite a bit. Also, Shiharam was a catalyst for growth to both Jill and Haar, both of whom are amazing characters. 

FE10: Levail followed Zelgius due to Zelgius being a good general from what is apparent. At least Levail had the guts to criticize Zelgius at a point which reminds me of Sothe and Soren. Hetzel is basically Makalov but on the evil side. He's a coward which makes him a nice contrast to brave characters. 

Overall I'd say FE7>FE10>FE9>FE8 when it comes to the quality of the camuses. Storywise, I'd say FE10>FE9>FE7>FE8 so I guess your camus litmus test was pretty accurate.  

On the topic of Bryce, Shihaham and Levail, I'd argue that The Black Knight serves as a greater Camus in the grand scheme of things.

He's not quite on the lighter/friendlier side of things like most Camuses are, but he's not really hostile to his enemies, he's generally pretty affable, and he's mostly fulfilling his knightly duties and isn't motivated by much else(He DOES take interest in Ike because he thinks Ike will provide him with a good fight, though). It just so happens that he pledged himself as a knight to Sephiran and Ashera by extension, who are a bit higher on the food chain than the people Camuses generally pledge knighthood to.

Edited November 28, 2017 by Slumber

[saisymbolic]

I cast my votes. Tried not to let nostalgia or bias blind me too much in concerns to certain games.

Legit surprised to see CQ rated a bit higher than BR. And, seriously, the love for PoR is astounding. I mean, I adore the game too but damn.

[Icelerate]

19 hours ago, Slumber said:

On the topic of Bryce, Shihaham and Levail, I'd argue that The Black Knight serves as a greater Camus in the grand scheme of things.

He's not quite on the lighter/friendlier side of things like most Camuses are, but he's not really hostile to his enemies, he's generally pretty affable, and he's mostly fulfilling his knightly duties and isn't motivated by much else(He DOES take interest in Ike because he thinks Ike will provide him with a good fight, though). It just so happens that he pledged himself as a knight to Sephiran and Ashera by extension, who are a bit higher on the food chain than the people Camuses generally pledge knighthood to.

The Zelgius in RD part 3 serves the role of a camus but the Black Knight in PoR is fully committed to Ashnard (from what is apparent) and has no doubts. Black Knight in part one is an ally, therefore he's no camus. Part four Black Knight is revealed to be fully committed to Sephiran's plan to have Ashera turn everyone to stone. To me, a camus has to have some doubts about what they are doing is right. I'd say Deghinsea is a camus because even though he's very faithful to Ashera, he also regrets he has to fight Yune, Kurthnaga and Ena. Also, Micaiah in part three is a camus because she had doubts about going to war with the Laguz Alliance but went along due to being loyal to Pelleas and Daein. Sure after the blood pact was revealed, she was coerced and only becomes at best a camus-like character but from chapter 3-6:3-11 she's an obvious camus.  

So as much as I like Lloyd and Linus, I'd say FE10 has the best camusses. 

[edgelordweeaboo]

bro how are PoR and RD rated so highly? Especially with RD that game was good and I really like it and it's better than PoR gameplay wise but that game has some very very low lows and the story is pretty convoluted. Never understood why PoR was so well liked whatsoever so I can't say as much about it since the game probably just isn't for me. Also the amount of votes for FE4 not being at all appealing god damn.