Favorite development for a character outside of their main/original game

[Thane]

Hello.

By "development", I mean anything that serves to improve a character in an official Fire Emblem product, spin-off or otherwise, or anything else that has direct ties to Intelligent Systems. A good example of this could be the various lines in Heroes, especially the "confession" quotes.

Personally, I love what they did with Grima in Echoes. Sure, it highlights the fact that his existence in Awakening is very poorly explained, but the backstory given to him in Echoes is very different when compared to other baddies in the series, and it serves to help him stand out, which was something he sorely needed. 

While I know nothing about Reinhardt, his confession in Heroes is pretty damn beautiful.

Reinhardt: When I was young, my young sister, Olwen, followed me everywhere. As her elder brother, I felt it my duty to guide her path in life, helping her at every turn. But I now realize I wasn't doing it just for Olwen, nor was I even leading as much as I thought. It was more like she and I each had our own path, though equally high standards. You have helped me understand that at last. You and I—different, yet fully committed. What an ideal way to grow—neither leading nor following, but walking together. I thank you.

Those are two of my examples. What are yours?

[Magical Glace]

Grima’s probably the biggest example for me.  In Awakening, he was just kinda... there, for the sole and express purpose of including an evil dragon god trope Fire Emblem is so very enamored with.  FE15 and Heroes gave him a backstory (FE15) and a reason, although a simple one, for his distaste for humans (FEH).  Now, while I still dislike his portrayal in FE13, he’s no longer the “Why do you even exist” villain he once was for me.

[Water Mage]

Oddly enough, Oliver. His L.40 confession in Heroes caught me off-guard. He gives the player surprisingly good life advice! I guess almost dying gives you a new outlook in life.

[Armagon]

Have to echo Grima here. Not only did Echoes give Grima a backstory but just recently in Heroes, Grima now has a defined personality. Let's take a look at his Lv.40 quote in Heroes

Quote

"You are a curious one... You willingly come to chat with me? The fell dragon? Alone? You know full well how I detest humans. They have no qualms asking for divine assistance when it meets their fickle needs... But how quick they are to shun their benefactors once they get what they desire. They become arrogant and make the same mistakes repeatedly, incapable of learning the folly of their ways. They claim their actions are for the good of others, but that's merely a show of self-indulgence. Humans are selfish. And the ugliness of mankind has turned me repulsive. It's the world that wants me to be evil. And yet you claim to need me here? Enough of your lies, worm. How dare you look at me with such a gaze. Do not dare pity me!" 

Now we know that Grima really isn't just some "rawrr" villain. Sure, we've seen the "humanity made me evil" trope plenty of times before  but it still makes Grima a significantly better villain than what he was in Awakening. And on that note, i honestly wouldn't mind using Heroes as a way to improve bad villains. Like, if we can get some actual, proper characterization on villains like Garon, then would take it.

Another character that has good development is Faye. A lot of people tend to see her as creepy and rude in Echoes but in Heroes, she's like, way nicer and is just more pleasant to be around. I never hated Faye to begin with, all Heroes did was make me like her even more i don't have her yet though. Her Lv.40 quote is really nice too, since she actually admits that her obsession with Alm can actually be a problem at times.

 

Edited February 23, 2018 by Armagon

[Thane]

3 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Like, if we can get some actual, proper characterization on villains like Garon, then would take it.

Oh my gosh I'd love this. Anything to give some kind of context or perspective on Garon, even if it wouldn't help Fates, would be appreciated.

[omegaxis1]

Definitely Grima for me, but not just because it gives him more character. But because he was actually close to the same of how my interpretation of the Grimleal portray him as. 

21 minutes ago, Water Mage said:

Oddly enough, Oliver. His L.40 confession in Heroes caught me off-guard. He gives the player surprisingly good life advice! I guess almost dying gives you a new outlook in life.

Interesting thing. He genuinely tries to cheer you up.

[Etrurian emperor]

Camus being in Echoes really did him a world of good. He now has an epic new voice, a more manly design and we finally see how he is when he isn't burdened by duty and his Camus tenancies. As Zeke we also see him as a regular guy who swoons over his beloved without it being meant as a joke. 

There's also Xander in Fire emblem Warriors. We see Xander not being dragged down by Garon and the Fates writing which means only his good traits remain. This means Xander finally has room to be the great character he was meant to be. That and his promotion has an epic cape while his already epic horse gets a mane.

Also from the same game....and I can't believe I got to say this but....Iago. He's actually....decent in Warriors and may in fact...um....be the best villain? When not being written as someone who can only get things done while hiding behind Garon's skirt Iago improves a lot. He's in the strange position that he became  more amusing but also far more effective. Kidnapping Corrin doesn't strike me as particularly hard but brainwashing Ryoma and Xander suddenly makes him a big deal. He's also genuinely entertaining rather then irksome. Just like Xander he's freed from the constraint that made him a failure as a character and as a result he's a lot better. 

Edited February 23, 2018 by Etrurian emperor

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Camus being in Echoes really did him a world of good. He now has an epic new voice, a more manly design and we finally see how he is when he isn't burdened by duty and his Camus tenancies. As Zeke we also see him as a regular guy who swoons over his beloved without it being meant as a joke. 

True, as for once we got to see how he WOULD have been with Nyna had their social status not gotten in the way. 

2 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

There's also Xander in Fire emblem Warriors. We see Xander not being dragged down by Garon and the Fates writing which means only his good traits remain. This means Xander finally has room to be the great character he was meant to be. That and his promotion has an epic cape while his already epic horse gets a mane.

That's a very good point. Xander was so terribly written in the Fates storyline that it differs greatly from his supports. But Warriors really did help smooth some stuff over and we got to see the better Xander. 

3 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Also from the same game....and I can't believe I got to say this but....Iago. He's actually....decent in Warriors and may in fact...um....be the best villain? When not being written as someone who can only get things done while hiding behind Garon's skirt Iago improves a lot. He's in the strange position that he became both more amusing but also more effective. Kidnapping Corrin doesn't strike me as particularly hard but brainwashing Ryoma and Xander suddenly makes him a big deal. He's also genuinely entertaining rather then irksome. Just like Xander he's freed from the constraint that made him a failure as a character and as a result he's a lot better. 

Now that I think about it, Iago kidnapping Corrin, then pinning Hoshido and Nohr against one another, and then taking the leaders in the midst of the confusion and brainwashing them all? Now that's clever. 

[Dragoncat]

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

True, as for once we got to see how he WOULD have been with Nyna had their social status not gotten in the way. 

Camus was a knight and Nyna a princess iirc. Social status wouldn't be a problem here? Unless knights are supposed to serve the royalty and not marry into it?

[omegaxis1]

2 minutes ago, Dragoncat said:

Camus was a knight and Nyna a princess iirc. Social status wouldn't be a problem here? Unless knights are supposed to serve the royalty and not marry into it?

Camus was a knight, but was not of noble birth. Its the same reason why Artemis had to marry Duke Cartas. Nyna's only choices were either Hardin or Marth, both of whom were princes.

[Dragoncat]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

Camus was a knight, but was not of noble birth. Its the same reason why Artemis had to marry Duke Cartas. Nyna's only choices were either Hardin or Marth, both of whom were princes.

I see, that makes sense. Only those of noble birth can marry into royalty. Unless they're "special" enough I guess.

Artemis and Duke Cartas? Who are they?

[omegaxis1]

22 minutes ago, Dragoncat said:

I see, that makes sense. Only those of noble birth can marry into royalty. Unless they're "special" enough I guess.

Artemis and Duke Cartas? Who are they?

Yeah, about the special part...

Artemis was once the princess of Archanea several generations before Nyna. About a thousand years after the Earth Dragons were sealed, Medeus founded the kingdom of Dolhr, and then invaded Archanea, to exact vengeance on humans that persecuted the Manaketes. Archnea fell, and the royal family was killed, all save for Artemis, who was in Altea, which wasn't a proper nation back then.

There she met Anri, a simple commoner, and the two fell in love. To protect Artemis, Anri ventured forth under the guidance of Gotoh to seek out Falchion, enduirng harsh terrains from volcanos to frozen lands. 

Artemis meanwhile gave Duke Cartas the Fire Emblem and placed a spell on it to make it so that Cartas would win the war against Medeus. For the most part, Cartas did well and pushed back Dolhr. However, after Medeus got involved, the entire army was crushed. With little hope left, Anri suddenly arrived with Falchion in hand and defeated Medeus with it. He was the hero for that reason. 

However, despite being the hero, Anri was still a commoner, so marriage between him and Artemis was impossible, and instead Artemis was forced to wed Duke Cartas and then died aft childbirth. Anri founded Altea as a nation and became king from there, but never wed because he loved Artemis. This is where the legend goes that the spell Artemis placed on the Emblem was in fact a curse, and that any time the hands of the Emblem changed, you will attain victory, but at a grave consequence. 

Nyna had given Marth the Fire Emblem, and though he won the war, Nyna had to lose the man she loved, Camus. But even though he survived, he was with another woman by then. 

This Curse actually seem to have remained even after ages to Awakening even. Emmeryn gives Chrom the Fire Emblem, and dies, and though its later revealed she survives, she's a broken shell and lost her memories, only regaining them if she really dies after. Lucina got the Fire Emblem, and she ultimately failed to defeat Grima, but by going back in time, she was able to accidentally lure Grima there, saving her world and preventing another world from facing the same consequences she did.One can even say that Validar was affected by this curse, as though Grima revived, Validar dies and Grima ultimately is defeated when he went to the past. 

... Wow, I went full nerd there.

[Dragoncat]

@omegaxis1 It happens, I go full nerd all the time, don't be ashamed, EMBRACE IT!

Shows how little I know of the Archanea lore. But Anri has descendants doesn't he? Isn't Marth a descendant of his? He would have had to produced a heir with someone, but poor boy, not with someone he truly loved, looks like.

[Ottservia]

Honestly me personally I love what they did to inigo/laslow in fates. In awakening he was okay but honestly his gimmick was way overused and his flirting came off as really shallow at times. In fates boy did he ever mature. He's still the same flirty dancer we all know and love but you can tell how much he's changed ever since the events of awakening. His flirting is a lot more sincere and used more as an outlet to bond with the other people in the army. He's also a lot more open to people and more willing to lean on his friends when he has problems. Also casual shout out to grima because heroes and echoes do him justice.

[saisymbolic]

Really gonna sound silly but I think it's cute that Heroes added in the factoid that Xander can't swim. Might not really matter since it's from an alternate version of him but I think it adds in a vulnerable element that some characters need to feel ... not particularly "realistic" but endearing, maybe.

Also glad Anna in heroes isn't a selfish, money hungry gremlin like in Awakening. Also might not count as the Annas are never the same person but the point stands. I'm glad money isn't her entire character and makes me look forward to more Anna personalities should she show up in future games.

[Magical Glace]

33 minutes ago, Dragoncat said:

@omegaxis1 It happens, I go full nerd all the time, don't be ashamed, EMBRACE IT!

Shows how little I know of the Archanea lore. But Anri has descendants doesn't he? Isn't Marth a descendant of his? He would have had to produced a heir with someone, but poor boy, not with someone he truly loved, looks like.

Marth and Elice are descended from Anri's younger brother.  

2 minutes ago, saisymbolic said:

Really gonna sound silly but I think it's cute that Heroes added in the factoid that Xander can't swim. Might not really matter since it's from an alternate version of him but I think it adds in a vulnerable element that some characters need to feel ... not particularly "realistic" but endearing, maybe.

Also glad Anna in heroes isn't a selfish, money hungry gremlin like in Awakening. Also might not count as the Annas are never the same person but the point stands. I'm glad money isn't her entire character and makes me look forward to more Anna personalities should she show up in future games.

"Xander can't swim" is mentioned by Peri and Laslow in the beach DLC if you win with Xander, iirc.

Edited February 23, 2018 by Glaceon Mage

[saisymbolic]

2 minutes ago, Glaceon Mage said:

"Xander can't swim" is mentioned by Peri and Laslow in the beach DLC if you win with Xander, iirc.

Oh.

I don't have that DLC so I probably would have never known lol

[Ertrick36]

If it counts, I like the development all the Archaneans that show up in Gaiden/Echoes get there.  I also like how Catria's confession seems to imply she's developing feelings for you, or at least is getting over her crush on Marth.

And I think I generally like the FEW development the characters get.  That being said, the spin-off games haven't really changed my view of characters I don't particularly like.  I think I'm just gonna have to accept that I'll never like some of these more popular characters, in spite of all my efforts to appreciate them for what they are.  I think the most significant boost in my opinion of a character would probably be modern Anna, since she has gotten more supports where, yeah the whole "I wanna strike rich" gimmick is there, but it seems more like she's using it to actually support her allies, so you get the angle of "she actually cares about her comrades" earlier on.

Spoiler

Though I think Azura might be getting the short end of the stick lately, partially due to her popularity forcing her in my face a lot (I generally don't like this when it happens to characters I'm not particularly fond of) and partially due to me recently playing KotOR 2, which has a character that plays the grey morality element a lot better.  Though you also don't get many characters that practically define a game, so yeah.

6 minutes ago, Otts486 said:

Honestly me personally I love what they did to inigo/laslow in fates. In awakening he was okay but honestly his gimmick was way overused and his flirting came off as really shallow at times. In fates boy did he ever mature. He's still the same flirty dancer we all know and love but you can tell how much he's changed ever since the events of awakening. His flirting is a lot more sincere and used more as an outlet to bond with the other people in the army. He's also a lot more open to people and more willing to lean on his friends when he has problems. Also casual shout out to grima because heroes and echoes do him justice.

For me, the main character that had seen significant improvement of that trio was Severa.  She went from "chick with a totally rotten attitude" to "chick who is sometimes to competitive for her own good".  Sure, Severa had moments in Awakening with Noire where she was not a total PoS, but she was generally just a really awful person to a lot of people until their A/S supports.  Too bad she became the retainer of a woman who jokes about chopping off her legs if she decides to leave her service.

4 minutes ago, Dragoncat said:

@omegaxis1 It happens, I go full nerd all the time, don't be ashamed, EMBRACE IT!

Shows how little I know of the Archanea lore. But Anri has descendants doesn't he? Isn't Marth a descendant of his? He would have had to produced a heir with someone, but poor boy, not with someone he truly loved, looks like.

The funny thing is, Marth is actually only descended from a relative of Anri's.  I know this because it's outright stated in Mystery of the Emblem, and it's a point a lot of LPers like to gawk at if they're inclined to actually cover the story.  So he isn't really descended from greatness, though I think that helps to build Marth into a better hero.

Speaking of, Marth gets some nice development in FEW.

[Slumber]

16 minutes ago, Glaceon Mage said:

Marth and Elice are descended from Anri's younger brother.  

I always wondered how the story would develop if it turned out Anri also had heirs. But we're 6 games deep in the Archanea world, so it'd feel a bit like a cop out if they introduced that plot thread now, after Marth and Chrom's(Descendents of Anri's brother) stories had been told. 

Anyway, since I don't play Heroes, I'll go another direction:

I like the idea that Leif, on top of the flaws explored in FE5, is also SUPER insecure that he doesn't have major Holy Blood and that he's Seliph's cousin. It's something that gets touched on in one of the FE4 Mangas. Seliph is basically treated and trained for greatness, destined to save the world, while Leif may as well not even exist to the world outside of his liberation of Thracia. The world tosses Seliph some bones, while Leif gets none. Which gives Leif a huge complex. It fits with the character he was given in FE5(Though he never expresses and animosity or hard feelings towards his cousin), and might add to why Leif is such a tiny ball of anger and hatred at times. 

Edited February 23, 2018 by Slumber

[ChickenBits]

- Both Heroes and Echoes helped improved Grima. I always did like his design but he was just this dragon we kill in Awakening. Now he has a backstory and a more defined reason for hating humanity(admittedly it's a cliche one)

- I couldn't stand Severa in Awakening but she matures in Fates to the point I actually like her. 

- Corrin's portrayal in Warriors makes the character more likable. Just goes to show that Corrin shouldn't have been the focus in Fates. 

[Etrurian emperor]

4 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

True, as for once we got to see how he WOULD have been with Nyna had their social status not gotten in the way. 

I'm not sure Nyna would have been as good for Camus. She's got reason to be like she is that but she's kind of a sourpuss and so is Camus. Them getting together seems a recipe for the two of them getting depressed. Tatiana on the other hand is cheerful which may be what Camus needs. 

Also I'm not sure if Camus actually loves Nyna in that way. That always struck me as the tragic part of the love triangle. Nyna doesn't love Hardin but she herself isn't loved back back by Camus either.

[Etrurian emperor]

5 minutes ago, ChickenBits said:

- I couldn't stand Severa in Awakening but she matures in Fates to the point I actually like her. 

This so much. In Awakening Severa takes her tsundere tendencies so far that I don't think she's a very good person. Its like she's incapable of being kind to people when not on her own terms and without having people jump through hoops to prove themselves to her.

Then in Fates she grows up and she actually manages to act like a decent human being to others. She can now be nice to people without any tsundere strings attached to that kindness. She seems closer to Camilla and Beruka then she ever did with the Awakening kids because of this. 

[Dragoncat]

Xander can't swim huh? That's kinda hilarious. But I shouldn't be laughing because not everybody can swim. I for one can just dog paddle...but that explains why he had that big Lilith floaty in the Beach DLC and Heroes. He needs an inner tube and water wings lol.

And I see. Anri died a broken hearted virgin :( Wonder if he had a stable relationship with his brother and any nieces/nephews, and if he was ever jealous that his brother got to keep his lover and he didn't. Somebody needs to fanfic that.

[Etrurian emperor]

Just now, Dragoncat said:

Xander can't swim huh? That's kinda hilarious. But I shouldn't be laughing because not everybody can swim.

Interestingly Leo lists swimming as one of the things Xander is better at then he is in their support. Which makes one wonder about Leo's swimming skills. 

[omegaxis1]

2 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I'm not sure Nyna would have been as good for Camus. She's got reason to be like she is that but she's kind of a sourpuss and so is Camus. Them getting together seems a recipe for the two of them getting depressed. Tatiana on the other hand is cheerful which may be what Camus needs. 

Also I'm not sure if Camus actually loves Nyna in that way. That always struck me as the tragic part of the love triangle. Nyna doesn't love Hardin but she herself isn't loved back back by Camus either.

That really depends. I mean, the entire issue with their relationship has been their social status, with Nyna the princess and Camus being a knight from an enemy kingdom. Had that not been the issue, they could have been together and been happy. Or maybe not. It is never for sure how things would happen.

It is clear that Camus loved Nyna dearly, though. The way he spoke to her was trying to keep him at a distance because he probably understood their standings. However, he made it clear that he wants what's best for Nyna. In Echoes, the last thing Camus mumbled when he was washed ashore on Valentia was Nyna's name, and his death quote is him remembering Nyna. He even leaves Tatiana to save Nyna in Archanea, even if it was temporarily. He loves Tatiana no doubt, but I don't think he ever stopped loving Nyna. 

4 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Then in Fates she grows up and she actually manages to act like a decent human being to others. She can now be nice to people without any tsundere strings attached to that kindness. She seems closer to Camilla and Beruka then she ever did with the Awakening kids because of this. 

This is precisely what pisses me off the most about Awakening supports with the Awakening kids. Their supports is contradictory about the life they had to have lived. These kids fought together, risked their lives together. You expect me to believe that Severa would act like a bitch to Cynthia? That Kjelle would look down on everyone like she does with Inigo and Owain? Yarne I can accept some teasing or such for his cowardice, but no way would they ever think that he does not have the capacity to be braver than most. 

3 minutes ago, Dragoncat said:

And I see. Anri died a broken hearted virgin :( Wonder if he had a stable relationship with his brother and any nieces/nephews, and if he was ever jealous that his brother got to keep his lover and he didn't. Somebody needs to fanfic that.

Yeah, after Anri died, there was actually issues with the brother succeeding as king, and this caused Altea to be split, the other nation becoming Gra. I don't think Anri would have felt jealousy for his brother. I think he would be happy that his brother did not need to suffer like he had.