Who do you think is going to drop to 4 star? Male Morgan or female Morgan?

[Anacybele]

I don't get why people say male Morgan is underwhelming as a unit statwise though. This kid has become one of my best units. I DO have him with +Spd, -Def, but still. He wrecks shit! And I think he's one of the best red mages.

Edited March 16, 2018 by Anacybele

[bottlegnomes]

20 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

I don't get why people say male Morgan is underwhelming as a unit statwise though. This kid has become one of my best units. I DO have him with +Spd, -Def, but still. He wrecks shit! And I think he's one of the best red mages.

For his color 33/34 is the cream of the crop. Only Eirika, from what I glanced, has higher speed, but loses 2 attack, and all the units with more attack are noticeably slower. But in comparison to blue and green it stands out less. People with comparable(-) or outright superior(+) offensive stats there include Linde(+), Delthea(+), Tailtiu(-), Soren(-), Rhajat(+), Nino(+),  Summer Elise(+), and though he's a different move type H!Henry(identical). It's not that he's bad. It's just that it's not amazing in the grand scheme of things--several comparable characters are 3* and 4*--and unlike Celica or Katarina, he doesn't have a native or exclusive skill/weapon to bolster that.

Edited March 16, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[Anacybele]

5 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

For his color 33/34 is the cream of the crop. Only Eirika has higher speed, but loses 2 attack, and all the units with.ore attack are noticeably slower. But in comparison to blue and green it stands out less. People with comparable(-) or outright superior(+) offensive stats there include Linden(+), Delthea(+), Tailtiu(-), Soren(-), Rhajat(+), Nino(+),  Summer Elise(+), and though he's a different move type H!Henry(identical). It's not that he's bad. It's just that it's not amazing in the grand scheme of things--several comparable characters are 3* and 4*--and unlike Celica or Katarina, he doesn't have a native or exclusive skill/weapon to bolster that.

But why compare to blue and green when as a red mage, he serves a different purpose? A red mage is good for taking out low Res green units whose Def is annoyingly high (if you run into my Frederick, you're going to want a red mage, I can tell you that. He can actually live some blue and green ones due to his massive HP).

Morgan does have a native/exclusive weapon though. And he is pretty amazing if you ask me. More amazing than I thought, in fact.

And what 3 and 4 star units are comparable to him other than maybe Tharja? Henry, Sophia, and Raigh all suck. Lilina is eh. And there's no need to compare him to other colors since his job is not the same as theirs.

Edited March 16, 2018 by Anacybele

[Nowi's Husband]

Neither, flying mage is too unique and the male has a PRF weapon and B skill.  I would love for Todd Haberkorn to be demoted but I'm not holding my breath.

[Ice Dragon]

49 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

And what 3 and 4 star units are comparable to him other than maybe Tharja? Henry, Sophia, and Raigh all suck. Lilina is eh. And there's no need to compare him to other colors since his job is not the same as theirs.

• Tharja has pretty much the same offensive stats has him.
• Lilina has better one-hit kill potential, which means she doesn't have to deal with out-speeding opponents or tanking counterattacks. Being a one-hit kill unit also means she has a completely free B slot.
• Sophia is a mixed tank that has very little difficulty dealing with colorless units and green tome users (especially now that Dull Ranged is a thing).

[bottlegnomes]

1 hour ago, Anacybele said:

But why compare to blue and green when as a red mage, he serves a different purpose?

Because they're all offensive magic units? No one in their right mind would disagree that Reinhardt was unequivocally better than Leo pre-refinement and they're different colors. Yes that's a very extreme example, but just having different niches doesn't make two units incomparable.

A red mage is good for taking out low Res green units whose Def is annoyingly high (if you run into my Frederick, you're going to want a red mage, I can tell you that. He can actually live some blue and green ones due to his massive HP).

Yes, they have their uses, but there's more than one way to handle any given unit. Your Fred is impressive, but there are plenty of ways to handle him. Same for everyone on my teams. Same for everyone on the whaliest of whale's teams. Heck, I've survived fine without a green on my core arena team.

Morgan does have a native/exclusive weapon though. And he is pretty amazing if you ask me. More amazing than I thought, in fact.

His weapon doesn't directly boost his offensive skill, which is the point I was making. Celica is reasonable at 5* because she has effectively 37/38 for the first round and an fairly easy way to reattain that after the initial round. Katarina is much more likely to be 5* because Swift Sparrow is one of the most sought after skills than her actual ability. She's essentially identical to Thaja otherwise. Arguably worse since her default is garbage and that means some ranged and DC units could OHKO her.

And what 3 and 4 star units are comparable to him other than maybe Tharja? Henry, Sophia, and Raigh all suck. Lilina is eh. And there's no need to compare him to other colors since his job is not the same as theirs.

I clearly wasn't restricting it to red for reasons I covered (offensive magic is offensive magic basically unless you're at WTD). Even in red he's not the be-all end-all of mages. Overall offensively, yes only Thaja, but Lilina's a good nuke with 53 blade tome attack at +atk, Sophia's a great raven mage thanks to high bulk, and Arvis is both a good mage baiter with 33 res and a great healer thanks to life ring. Is he better than them? Probably, but not astoundingly.

For the record, I'm not saying he's bad. I'm just giving you reasons why people say he's underwhelming statistically for a unit that could potentially be 5*-locked. Would he be the worst? No. But he certainly wouldn't be the most impressive.

In bold since I'm on my phone and formatting is a PITA.

[Anacybele]

8 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

• Tharja has pretty much the same offensive stats has him.
• Lilina has better one-hit kill potential, which means she doesn't have to deal with out-speeding opponents or tanking counterattacks. Being a one-hit kill unit also means she has a completely free B slot.
• Sophia is a mixed tank that has very little difficulty dealing with colorless units and green tome users (especially now that Dull Ranged is a thing).

And I mentioned Tharja.

Lilina can't double much at all though, whereas male Morgan can, so he doesn't need to one-hit kill. And my Lilina is +Atk and still doesn't one-hit kill sometimes where male Morgan would be able to kill in two hits.

Male Morgan doesn't have much trouble dealing with them either though?

7 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

In bold since I'm on my phone and formatting is a PITA.

Fine, but I'm not going to agree that male Morgan is underwhelming, no matter what. I thought he might be at first, but I turned out to be wrong and I'm glad I was. I'm not saying he's one of the most amazing units in the game, mind you. I just think he's better than people are giving him credit for.

Also, actually, the only guaranteed way to handle my Frederick is by using a red mage.

Edited March 17, 2018 by Anacybele

[Hilda]

my guess is M Robin because he has only 2 passives and they will lock dull ranged behind a 5 Star wall! (as in you need to upgrade him)

[Ice Dragon]

1 minute ago, Anacybele said:

And I mentioned Tharja.

And I'm being comprehensive.

 

2 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Lilina can't double much at all though, whereas male Morgan can, so he doesn't need to one-hit kill. And my Lilina is +Atk and still doesn't one-hit kill sometimes where male Morgan would be able to kill in two hits.

Lilina does not need to double anything.

+0 Lilina [+Atk, -Spd] (Raudhrblade+, Death Blow 3, Attack +3) +4/4/0/0 against +5 vanilla green units with Fury 3 overwrite and +3/51/3/3 buffs has her with 46 wins and 3 draws (Winter Chrom, Winter Lissa, and Deirdre).

Against non-blue units under the same conditions but only +3 Spd instead of +51, she has 98 wins, 19 losses, and 36 draws. Giving all opponents both Fury 3 and Distant Counter only reduces that to 94 wins.

With +4/4/4/4 buffs, Lilina gets 139 wins out of 153 against +5 vanilla green units with Fury 3 overwrite, Distant Counter, and +3/3/3/3 buffs.

 

5 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Male Morgan doesn't have much trouble dealing with them either though?

Unless I'm missing something here, "doesn't have much trouble" is comparable to "has very little difficulty".

[Anacybele]

3 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Lilina does not need to double anything.

She does though. I just pointed out, even my +Atk Lilina can't always one-hit kill. And she has a blade tome.

[bottlegnomes]

37 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Also, actually, the only guaranteed way to handle my Frederick is by using a red mage.

Rhajat, Gray, and now Gerome, TA or bulky swords, or even just inheriting any of the three's weapons. My Rhajat is +def/-atk, but with grown wolf's special refine, Fred has to have two of +SPD, +3 merge, and a goad, to avoid a double, and is facing 66 attack. To even survive a single hit at neutral IVs he needs to get 5 bulk from somewhere (I'm including refine's +5 HP), be that merges, wards, etc. And my Rhajat is like the worst possible Rhajat for that.

Guaranteed and handleable are very different things. There isn't a guaranteed way to kill CA3 firesweep brave Lyn since no one has WTA, can bait effectively, or can engage from outside her range without assistance, but she's still fine to deal with if you're careful. There's a major difference between a player controlled character and the computer.

Edited March 17, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[Ice Dragon]

1 minute ago, Anacybele said:

She does though. I just pointed out, even my +Atk Lilina can't always one-hit kill. And she has a blade tome.

You're clearly not using an optimal build or using teammates that help her do her job, then, because

5 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

+0 Lilina [+Atk, -Spd] (Raudhrblade+, Death Blow 3, Attack +3) +4/4/0/0 against +5 vanilla green units with Fury 3 overwrite and +3/51/3/3 buffs has her with 46 wins and 3 draws (Winter Chrom, Winter Lissa, and Deirdre).

Against non-blue units under the same conditions but only +3 Spd instead of +51, she has 98 wins, 19 losses, and 36 draws. Giving all opponents both Fury 3 and Distant Counter only reduces that to 94 wins.

With +4/4/4/4 buffs, Lilina gets 139 wins out of 153 against +5 vanilla green units with Fury 3 overwrite, Distant Counter, and +3/3/3/3 buffs.

 

"Lilina can't do this because my Lilina can't do this" isn't a valid argument.

[Anacybele]

25 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

Rhajat, Gray, and now Gerome, TA or bulky swords, or even just inheriting any of the three's weapons. My Rhajat is +def/-atk, but with grown wolf's special refine, Fred has to have two of +SPD, +3 merge, and a goad, to avoid a double, and is facing 66 attack. To even survive a single hit at neutral IVs he needs to get 5 bulk from somewhere (I'm including refine's +5 HP), be that merges, wards, etc. And my Rhajat is like the worst possible Rhajat for that.

Guaranteed and handleable are very different things. There isn't a guaranteed way to kill CA3 firesweep brave Lyn since no one has WTA, can bait effectively, or can engage from outside her range without assistance, but she's still fine to deal with if you're careful. There's a major difference between a player controlled character and the computer.

You forget that my Frederick can now reach 67 Def on enemy phase. He's +Def, btw. He takes 0 damage from a lot of sword units now, let alone lances and axes. And since Rhajat and Gray are 5 star only while certain red mages are not, it's easier to just get a red mage to counter him.

Also, I don't consider just three units "a lot of ways" anyway.

24 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

"Lilina can't do this because my Lilina can't do this" isn't a valid argument.

...Uh, how? I've seen that Lilina can't do what you're saying she can while I'm using optimal IVs and a blade tome. How is that not valid?

Edited March 17, 2018 by Anacybele

[Ice Dragon]

1 minute ago, Anacybele said:

...Uh, how? I've seen that Lilina can't do what you're saying she can while I'm using optimal IVs and a blade tome. How is that not valid?

+0 Lilina [+Atk, -Spd] (Raudhrblade+, Death Blow 3, Attack +3) +4/4/0/0

How many of those pieces are you missing?

[Anacybele]

1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

+0 Lilina [+Atk, -Spd] (Raudhrblade+, Death Blow 3, Attack +3) +4/4/0/0

How many of those pieces are you missing?

None, I believe (though she's +Atk, -Def). I don't have the 5 star blade tome on her, but does that really matter when a blade tome's power increases with buffs anyway?

Edited March 17, 2018 by Anacybele

[bottlegnomes]

25 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

You forget that my Frederick can now reach 67 Def on enemy phase. He's +Def, btw. He takes 0 damage from a lot of sword units now, let alone lances and axes. And since Rhajat and Gray are 5 star only while certain red mages are not, it's easier to just get a red mage to counter him.

Easier and only guaranteed way are not the same thing.

If I'm doing the math right, my Gerome, and therefore any axe with similar strength can hit 99 effective attack and is definitely letting your Fred attack so QR will activate.

Also, I don't consider just three units "a lot of ways" anyway.

Any unit can run those weapons, two of said weapons are easily available, granted in limited quantity, through free characters and refinement, and everyone can run TA 3. Also completely forgot about Caeda and Micaiah.

 

Edited March 17, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[Ice Dragon]

6 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

None, I believe (though she's +Atk, -Def). I don't have the 5 star blade tome on her, but does that really matter when a blade tome's power increases with buffs anyway?

Yes, it does, actually. Notice how adding 2 buffs (+4 Def and +4 Res) increased her wins from 94 to 139? Dropping from Raudhrblade+ (13 Mt) to Raudhrblade (9 Mt) is the equivalent of losing 1 full buff worth of Atk and can easily make the difference between a barely kill and a barely fail.

Either that or you're using her wrong. Numbers don't lie.

[Anacybele]

@bottlegnomes Oh, you're also forgetting to factor in that many of those characters have to get to Frederick before he gets to them, or else they're dead. Micaiah especially can't take a hit from him. A red mage has a good chance of surviving him though, unless he has Ignis ready. Also, Zanbato isn't easy to get. Gray is the only one that has it and he's 5 star only. I also hardly ever see anyone run Zanbato in the first place, so there are obviously better options.

I'm just saying, your best bet against my Frederick by far is a red mage.

5 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Yes, it does, actually. Notice how adding 2 buffs (+4 Def and +4 Res) increased her wins from 94 to 139? Dropping from Raudhrblade+ (13 Mt) to Raudhrblade (9 Mt) is the equivalent of losing 1 full buff worth of Atk and can easily make the difference between a barely kill and a barely fail.

Either that or you're using her wrong. Numbers don't lie.

I doubt I'm using her wrong, because I don't see any other way I could possibly use her. That still looks like something that could be fixed by adding a third buff, though that could be a little hard to do. But no matter, I never really use her anymore anyway since I have better options now.

[bottlegnomes]

4 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

I'm just saying, your best bet against my Frederick by far is a red mage.

Again, better is not only guaranteed.

Anyway, what are his HP, speed, and resistance? There's no point in me doing numbers if I don't have actual values.

Edited March 17, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[Anacybele]

1 minute ago, bottlegnomes said:

Again, better is not only guaranteed.

I said guaranteed because pretty much everyone will have a red mage while not everyone will have a green or blue mage that can kill him.

[UNLEASH IT]

Neither of them are particularly good but I can't see Female  Morgan dropping due to her uniqueness (despite the fact that she might actually be the worst mage flier that we've gotten so far)

[Usana]

21 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

Rhajat, Gray, and now Gerome, TA or bulky swords, or even just inheriting any of the three's weapons. My Rhajat is +def/-atk, but with grown wolf's special refine, Fred has to have two of +SPD, +3 merge, and a goad, to avoid a double, and is facing 66 attack. To even survive a single hit at neutral IVs he needs to get 5 bulk from somewhere (I'm including refine's +5 HP), be that merges, wards, etc. And my Rhajat is like the worst possible Rhajat for that.

Guaranteed and handleable are very different things. There isn't a guaranteed way to kill CA3 firesweep brave Lyn since no one has WTA, can bait effectively, or can engage from outside her range without assistance, but she's still fine to deal with if you're careful. There's a major difference between a player controlled character and the computer.

You are correct about anti-cav weapons, but not TA and non-zanbato red swords. Assuming he is fully defense stacked the only sword that kills him when they initiate into him is Gray(when using +ATK nature + Fury Override, all at +0, and 1 round of combat, since if he tanks them he did his job). If you override all red swords with the Ruby Sword, none of the swords win. If you force TA on every red melee FIVE of them can take him down. Siegbert, Elincia, Ayra, Gray, and Fallen Celica. And pretty much all of them want to run something other than TA in their A-Slot. If you also force moonbow on folks you get a bit better results in that 4 can take him down as is. And about 20 can drop him with TA and moonbow. 50+ATK and enough speed to double Freddy seems to be the requirement. With Ruby Sword+/Moonbow/Fury +ATK forced he loses to 21.. Also if they have +SPD or Neutral rather than +ATK things go south fast for them. Dropping down to 6 for that last match up I listed. If they are neutral it drops down to 5(Arden, Unstoppable Chrom, Soliel, Legendary Ike, and Zelgius. Regular Chrom is the one that needs +SPD to do it). Also I am pretty sure Anacybele has him summoner supported and that radically increases his bulk. That 21 drops to 4 and the +SPD drops to 0. Even with Zanbato 7-13 swords fail to kill him depending on boon.

Anyways point is Freddy can reach some rather nutty tanky levels. Not unstoppable since he is pretty much hard countered by Magic and Zanbato and now Poleaxe(though to be fair with summoner less than half the axes can beat him with poleaxe+) as well as the AI just being plain dumb. But if you aren't using those three? Such a freddy won't fall easily. And of those three magic is by far the easiest one to field.

 

 

[Erren]

Female Morgan. Happened to Talitu, Mae, everyone with a tome like it.

[bottlegnomes]

49 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

I said guaranteed because pretty much everyone will have a red mage while not everyone will have a green or blue mage that can kill him.

52 HP, 29 SPD, and 22 RES are his +res +10s. With a hone and maxed def buffs, he hits 57 HP, 35 SPD, and 36 res. That's 93 for a OHKO, or 40 SPD or axe breaker and 64 for a 2HKO. Yeah 93 is high, but to hit the second a gronnblade+ mage needs +4/4/0/0, L&D, and 34/31 offensive stats, which does take some invest, but is certainly attainable and facing a Frederick that is incredibly likely to never exist.

Edit: I just realized I forgot about skills, but I'm too lazy and I feel like this still gets my point across.

@Usana Forgot about summoner support (Though doesn't that not apply to defense teams? Defense teams is the assumption I was operating under since her phrasing was "if you run into my Frederick."), and fair point on the non-effective swords. I probably should've actually done some calcs before mentioning them. That said, my point was never that a fully buffed Freddy is easy to handle. It was that there are ways to deal with him effectively aside from specifically red mages.

Edited March 17, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[Rafiel's Aria]

I wouldn't say M. Morgan is "underwhelming" but he's definitely not as exciting as a lot of the units we've gotten for the past few banners. I mean...we've been getting armors, dragons, alts with unique weapons and skills...etc. It's hard for another red infantry mage to compete with someone like mage Eirika, Grima, or even Micaiah. Morgan's tome doesn't really address anything in the meta. I'm not sure if it's an accurate comparison, but he's probably kind of in the same vein as L'Arachel. She's useful and definitely not bad, but she also has a lot of competition as far as blue horses go...  I'm actually hoping M. Robin drops because I think that might make him the first red mage to do so...(And I love him. :3) FEH likes to keep red mages 5 star exclusive for some reason.

But @Anacybele, I think folks just want you to be careful about generalizing... Just because Frederick has high DEF doesn't mean melee units can't kill him. There are way too many factors in match-ups to say that. I ran a few of my own character builds against what I think your Frederick might be running I've seen him a few times, but I didn't want to go hunting. (I think I used Slaying Axe+ (DEF refine), Bonfire, Fury, Quick Riposte 3, and Close DEF as well as Ephraim's Fire blessing. But I made him a +10 for good measure, gave him horse buffs, and in the end, on enemy phase he effectively had 66 DEF. The builds I run on my Gray, Caeda, and Palla (tried it with Elinicia, and I couldn't get her to win but I don't use her or know any common builds for her) could get him without much trouble. I played around with some other match-ups, and I thought it was funny that this Frederick (swapping out Close DEF for ATK+3 for more attack on player phase) couldn't kill my unmerged Nephenee when he initiated. 

Things like player phase v. enemy phase, positioning of units, terrain, teammates, enemy merges etc. always come into play. In Arena, your Frederick is going to be different in your hands than the AI's hands which is all we'll ever see. That's not to say he's not good. He looks like a pretty great unit, and this is coming from someone who probably wouldn't touch him with a ten foot pole. He serves you well. Folks will likely get tripped up every now and then in the Arena because he's not that common, and that DEF is surprising. 

I guess the tl;dr version of this is there are probably plenty of ways to get around or through your Frederick's DEF. If folks had to have a red mage to defeat your Frederick in the Arena, you'd likely have dozens of DEF wins each week (which might be the case; IDK) because not everyone runs a red mage. I definitely don't.