Who do you think is going to drop to 4 star? Male Morgan or female Morgan?

[Anacybele]

Huh, I'm actually not sure if a summoner support applies to defense teams... I would think they do though, since it isn't like those units are being used by another player. It's just the AI. But in any case, yes, I summoner supported Freddy. He is my favorite husband. :P

1 hour ago, bottlegnomes said:

52 HP, 29 SPD, and 22 RES are his +res +10s. With a hone and maxed def buffs, he hits 57 HP, 35 SPD, and 36 res. That's 93 for a OHKO, or 40 SPD or axe breaker and 64 for a 2HKO. Yeah 93 is high, but to hit the second a gronnblade+ mage needs +4/4/0/0, L&D, and 34/31 offensive stats, which does take some invest, but is certainly attainable and facing a Frederick that is incredibly likely to never exist.

Edit: I just realized I forgot about skills, but I'm too lazy and I feel like this still gets my point across.

@Usana Forgot about summoner support (Though doesn't that not apply to defense teams? Defense teams is the assumption I was operating under since her phrasing was "if you run into my Frederick."), and fair point on the non-effective swords. I probably should've actually done some calcs before mentioning them. That said, my point was never that a fully buffed Freddy is easy to handle. It was that there are ways to deal with him effectively aside from specifically red mages.

Oh, now I understand. I was sorta thinking that you felt my Frederick was really easy to beat. I put a lot of work into him (and that's kind of an understatement), so I would like to think he's not easy to beat.

And yeah, I was mainly talking about if you were to see my Frederick in the arena or something.

56 minutes ago, Rafiel's Aria said:

But @Anacybele, I think folks just want you to be careful about generalizing... Just because Frederick has high DEF doesn't mean melee units can't kill him. There are way too many factors in match-ups to say that. I ran a few of my own character builds against what I think your Frederick might be running I've seen him a few times, but I didn't want to go hunting. (I think I used Slaying Axe+ (DEF refine), Bonfire, Fury, Quick Riposte 3, and Close DEF as well as Ephraim's Fire blessing. But I made him a +10 for good measure, gave him horse buffs, and in the end, on enemy phase he effectively had 66 DEF. The builds I run on my Gray, Caeda, and Palla (tried it with Elinicia, and I couldn't get her to win but I don't use her or know any common builds for her) could get him without much trouble. I played around with some other match-ups, and I thought it was funny that this Frederick (swapping out Close DEF for ATK+3 for more attack on player phase) couldn't kill my unmerged Nephenee when he initiated. 

Things like player phase v. enemy phase, positioning of units, terrain, teammates, enemy merges etc. always come into play. In Arena, your Frederick is going to be different in your hands than the AI's hands which is all we'll ever see. That's not to say he's not good. He looks like a pretty great unit, and this is coming from someone who probably wouldn't touch him with a ten foot pole. He serves you well. Folks will likely get tripped up every now and then in the Arena because he's not that common, and that DEF is surprising. 

I guess the tl;dr version of this is there are probably plenty of ways to get around or through your Frederick's DEF. If folks had to have a red mage to defeat your Frederick in the Arena, you'd likely have dozens of DEF wins each week (which might be the case; IDK) because not everyone runs a red mage. I definitely don't. 

Yeah, I think I see now. And I know, I actually watched him die to two consecutive Luna hits... I didn't expect both those units to be running Luna. He was on a Def tile too.

Oh yeah, you guys have to factor Def tiles as well, ya know.

Also, that's not what my Frederick runs at all, aside from the Slaying Axe+ with Def refine. He has Ignis, Reposition, Steady Stance 3, Quick Reposte 2, Hone Cavalry, and Def+3 seal. He reaches 67 Def on enemy phase if I stick horse Ephraim next to him. A Def tile raises that even more. And yeah, the AI will be worse than a player, but the point of a defense team is to be difficult to beat, and Frederick is certainly my strongest unit. Freddy not being that common (he's so underrated in this game imo. Even I didn't expect him to be as good as I've made him!) is also a strength here because like you said, his appearance can throw people off.

And funny you should mention having a lot of defense wins, because I was getting a lot for several weeks in a row some time ago and Frederick was in the team. But lately I haven't been, unfortunately...

But I understand now. And this has gotten off topic, so better to end this here anyway. xP

 

[Ice Dragon]

1 minute ago, Anacybele said:

Huh, I'm actually not sure if a summoner support applies to defense teams...

It doesn't. Ally support doesn't, either.

[Anacybele]

1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

It doesn't. Ally support doesn't, either.

...Seriously? I don't see much point in having them then.

[Ice Dragon]

1 minute ago, Anacybele said:

...Seriously? I don't see much point in having them then.

Summoner support and ally support are there to help you overcome stronger opponents, not to make your AI-controlled units harder for challengers to kill.

[Anacybele]

2 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Summoner support and ally support are there to help you overcome stronger opponents, not to make your AI-controlled units harder for challengers to kill.

Yeah, but they'd be many times more helpful if they factored into arena defense too. I almost never get defense wins anymore now while I used to get them a lot.

[Usana]

@bottlegnomes True that summoner support isn't included in defense teams, I mostly included it because most of Anacybele's observations of his defensive ability will have been with him tanking stuff while Summoner support was active. And as I said that GREATLY increases his tankiness. Part of the reason I wish summoner support worked on defense teams. It makes such a huge difference that units can perform radically differently than the person building the defense team may expect. Letting such apply to defense teams would even that out a bit. Plus it can be fun to see just how far folks can push some stuff on their favorite units.  Not as gungho about ally support working in arena though. Since the boosts are invisible I could easily see myself making miscalculations often.

[bottlegnomes]

29 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Oh, now I understand. I was sorta thinking that you felt my Frederick was really easy to beat. I put a lot of work into him (and that's kind of an understatement), so I would like to think he's not easy to beat.

Ah, my bad. I probably should've made that clearer from the get go. By plenty of ways, I meant that there's not only one counter to him.

And funny you should mention having a lot of defense wins, because I was getting a lot for several weeks in a row some time ago and Frederick was in the team. But lately I haven't been, unfortunately...

Did you change tiers or anything? I know I usually get more wins when I'm in 19 than 18 for whatever reason. Not sure if that's just coincidence or if there's an actual reason for it.

But I understand now. And this has gotten off topic, so better to end this here anyway. xP

Agreed.

Back on my computer, but I'm feeling lazy.

14 minutes ago, Usana said:

@bottlegnomes True that summoner support isn't included in defense teams, I mostly included it because most of Anacybele's observations of his defensive ability will have been with him tanking stuff while Summoner support was active. And as I said that GREATLY increases his tankiness. Part of the reason I wish summoner support worked on defense teams. It makes such a huge difference that units can perform radically differently than the person building the defense team may expect. Letting such apply to defense teams would even that out a bit. Plus it can be fun to see just how far folks can push some stuff on their favorite units.  Not as gungho about ally support working in arena though. Since the boosts are invisible I could easily see myself making miscalculations often.

Very true on summoner support making a huge difference. +5 HP and damageless fury 2 is ridiculous. It actually lets my Brave Lyn kind of tank. I do kind of wish ally support showed up in some form, but not sure how they would do that. It's not so bad when it's units you've had supported for a while, but if the support is new or, in this scenario, if it's enemies, then yeah, it'd be pretty easy to miss. Heck, I forget about combat buffs often enough just because they don't change numbers and they're a lot more visible than supports.

[Anacybele]

14 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

Back on my computer, but I'm feeling lazy.

Don't worry, it's cool. :)

I change tiers a lot actually. Mainly because it's hard to stay in anything 18 and above.

[Rafiel's Aria]

44 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Oh yeah, you guys have to factor Def tiles as well, ya know.

Just thought I'd add one more thing before I hopped off. You don't have to. Not every map has defensive tiles. It's impossible for your Frederick to have the most optimal defense during every possible match-up. It'd be incredibly silly for someone to engage him while he's on a defense tile anyway. Creating optimal conditions is fun, but how often are the stars going to align perfectly? Maybe under your control but definitely not under the AI's control. 

 

Just had a thought... If no one drops from this banner, I wonder what that means for future banners? Will no 4 star drops just become the norm? I guess that's the best way for the game to make money...but at the same time, it's just...kinda' sad I suppose. 

[Anacybele]

Just now, Rafiel's Aria said:

Just thought I'd add one more thing before I hopped off. You don't have to. Not every map has defensive tiles. It's impossible for your Frederick to have the most optimal defense during every possible match-up. It'd be incredibly silly for someone to engage him while he's on a defense tile anyway. Creating optimal conditions is fun, but how often are the stars going to align perfectly? Maybe under your control but definitely not under the AI's control. 

 

Just had a thought... If no one drops from this banner, I wonder what that means for future banners? Will no 4 star drops just become the norm? I guess that's the best way for the game to make money...but at the same time, it's just...kinda' sad I suppose. 

Not every map has defense tiles, but a lot of them do now, I think. Still, you are right to a degree, yeah.

Man, I sure hope there will still be more 4 star drops. And I also hope some more 3 stars are added to the pool. The 3 and 4 star pools are becoming so stagnant and boring.

[Humanoid]

The "fix" will be the introduction of 6-star heroes.

[Anacybele]

1 minute ago, Humanoid said:

The "fix" will be the introduction of 6-star heroes.

That would be an even worse idea imo.

[Arcanite]

3 minutes ago, Humanoid said:

The "fix" will be the introduction of 6-star heroes.

You're so funny and original for making this never before made joke

 

[Humanoid]

27 minutes ago, Arcanite said:

You're so funny and original for making this never before made joke

 

One day I'm going to make that joke and it won't be funny at all because it'll already have happened. But I'll keep making the joke anyway.

 

Inevitably though, there will come a day where the power gap between a 4-star and a 5-star will be smaller than the power gap between the original 5-stars and the new powercreeped ones. And when that day comes, it then becomes the rational choice to actually do this. (And the real joke will be when they set the 6* rate to 1%, the 6* focus rate to 1%, and generously increase the 5* rate to 8%)

Edited March 17, 2018 by Humanoid

[Vaximillian]

38 minutes ago, Humanoid said:

The "fix" will be the introduction of 6-star heroes.

This is almost inevitable, and it will mark the day when I quit Heroes for good.

[Anacybele]

35 minutes ago, Humanoid said:

One day I'm going to make that joke and it won't be funny at all because it'll already have happened. But I'll keep making the joke anyway.

 

Inevitably though, there will come a day where the power gap between a 4-star and a 5-star will be smaller than the power gap between the original 5-stars and the new powercreeped ones. And when that day comes, it then becomes the rational choice to actually do this. (And the real joke will be when they set the 6* rate to 1%, the 6* focus rate to 1%, and generously increase the 5* rate to 8%)

And then what about how many feathers it would cost to upgrade a 5 star to 6 star? That would be completely absurd since 20,000 to upgrade to 5 star is already steep.

Edited March 17, 2018 by Anacybele

[Ice Dragon]

18 minutes ago, Humanoid said:

And when that day comes, it then becomes the rational choice to actually do this.

It's going to take very meticulous design to actually make this work in practice without half of the whale player base packing up and taking their money elsewhere. Not allowing 5-star units to carry merges over to 6-star rarity is an active middle finger to every whale in the player base. Making the promotion cost exorbitant (200,000 feathers by the current pattern) is not much better, even if the ability to carry merges over is made possible by simply paying for the entire cost of promoting every merged copy. Adding a new consumable that allows carrying over merges is marginally better, which is to say it's still a middle finger unless they can be acquired faster than whales acquire merged 5-stars (ha ha very funny).

 

20 minutes ago, Vaximillian said:

This is almost inevitable, and it will mark the day when I quit Heroes for good.

Fate/Grand Order has gone almost three years without the need for a new rarity level by periodically updating older characters.

 

I'm sure when push comes to shove, the developers will be able to come up with something that won't turn them into the game's true villains.

[Vaximillian]

4 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Fate/Grand Order has gone almost three years without the need for a new rarity level by periodically updating older characters.

I'm sure when push comes to shove, the developers will be able to come up with something that won't turn them into the game's true villains.

They already resorted to unnecessary alts outside outside of seasonal banner in lieu of actual characters. They’re keeping the summoning pools stagnant and bloated, and three-star pool non-existent. They are adding features upon features instead of tweaking what already works and making it work better. A cat can dream, of course, but I’m getting increasingly skeptical.

[Humanoid]

13 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

It's going to take very meticulous design to actually make this work in practice without half of the whale player base packing up and taking their money elsewhere. Not allowing 5-star units to carry merges over to 6-star rarity is an active middle finger to every whale in the player base. Making the promotion cost exorbitant (200,000 feathers by the current pattern) is not much better, even if the ability to carry merges over is made possible by simply paying for the entire cost of promoting every merged copy. Adding a new consumable that allows carrying over merges is marginally better, which is to say it's still a middle finger unless they can be acquired faster than whales acquire merged 5-stars (ha ha very funny).

Hmm, what if it cost no feathers, just that merging any 5-star to +10 automatically converts them to 6-star? Admittedly the implication would be that 6-stars would at minimum have +20BST on 5-stars which is a little on the high side. This may or may not exist alongside an alternative path. Or halve the requirement, +5 minimum to go up, with excess merges carried over.

For all the talk of inevitability, any move like this would still be a fair way off (same-type BST powercreep is still in the single digits) so I won't sweat on the details much. Just an acknowledgement that it's just a natural consequence of powercreep.

Edited March 17, 2018 by Humanoid

[Arcanite]

5 minutes ago, Vaximillian said:

They already resorted to unnecessary alts outside outside of seasonal banner in lieu of actual characters. They’re keeping the summoning pools stagnant and bloated, and three-star pool non-existent. They are adding features upon features instead of tweaking what already works and making it work better. A cat can dream, of course, but I’m getting increasingly skeptical.

They're doing things to try to make the game more enjoyable, at the very least. Making 6 stars would just straight kill the game

Soley based on how the merging system works... how many gachas have you played anyway?

56 minutes ago, Humanoid said:

One day I'm going to make that joke and it won't be funny at all because it'll already have happened. But I'll keep making the joke anyway.

Keep joking buddy

[Roflolxp54]

Because of none of the 3 Fallen Heroes banner units got demoted, it's entirely possible for none of the 3 Branded King banner units to get demoted. All 3 of them have popularity going for them (Chrom is one of the most popular male FE characters and many players wanted Morgan to be added for at least quite a while).

For skills, yeah, male Morgan is the least impressive though many players thought similarly of Fallen Celica yet Fallen Celica remained yet another 5* exclusive sword infantry unit. Female Morgan doesn't have any unique skills but she is a mage flier in the regular pool and mage fliers have been wanted for quite a while so no surprise if she's 5* exclusive. And it goes without saying that Chrom is likely going to remain as a 5* exclusive due to having Sword Valor and his Sealed Falchion having a strong offensive effect (and his being a major protagonist).

If male Morgan does get demoted, Tharja and Katarina would be offensively powercreeped if the player ever wants to make Morgan into a Bladetome mage; Morgan matches Tharja and Katarina in Spd (34 neutral Spd) and has 1 higher base Atk (Morgan has 33 neutral Atk; Tharja and Katarina have 32 neutral Atk), allowing him to hit slightly harder. And male Morgan has higher BST, which can be seen as adding insult to injury. It's pretty similar to Oscar outclassing Peri, Sully, and Roderick in the role of Firesweep Lance+ cavalier. It's a pretty minor difference but it's a difference nonetheless.

[Usana]

I could see F!Morgan getting dropped if they finally want to add a tome flier for the general populace. She doesn't strike me as meta shaking and is in a highly competitive group. However, the rare class can also work against her if they don't want a tome flier easily available yet. Given that they gave her a full kit it does seem kinda hinting at that they aren't ready for tome fliers flying around everywhere. Well that and how synergistic her kit is with her stats. Male Morgan appears to be less optimized. And shared a color. Not sure if that ever plays a part in who drops though.

What wouldn't surprise me is if they gave both Morgan's the same availability. They seem kinda like they are mirroring each other to me. They both can wall blade mages. They just do so via different means. F!Morgan can Res stack enough that she can tank non-green blades with 4/4/4/4. Actually she can apparently even eat Gronnblades to the face. Not a good match up mind you and the faster ones can double her down if she doesn't get any speed gifted to her. But if they don't have the full suite of buffs she can manage(say they have 4/4/0/0). Point is she wins more than she loses even with color disadvantage. And M!Morgan has dull ranged and decent enough magical bulk that he can do the same. Actually he fares better against blarblade then she does against gronnblade. But you get the idea, it is like they are twins or something *winkwinknudgenudge*. So I could see IS giving them the same rarity to further that. Sadly in that case them both being 5* is far more likely then both dropping to 4*. Would be nice to get two new additions to the 4* pool though.

 

Err TL;DR, as much as I would like F!Morgan to drop so that I could realistically get her sometime in the future, I expect Male Morgan to be more likely.

[Cornguy]

4 hours ago, Humanoid said:

The "fix" will be the introduction of 6-star heroes.

This joke's a little tired and all, but good gravy, that would probably be the end for this game. Can you imagine having a +anything 5-star, and then losing all of those merges to promote them to 6? Not to mention 20,000 feathers is already a little steep for promotion(at least if you're a dummy like me who just wants a bunch of 5-stars and ignore merging almost altogether), I can't picture spending even more feathers to get my units up to speed.

On the actual topic though, I hope it's M!Morgan. I like F!Morgan better of course, but I already got her, so I selfishly hope it's not her. Of course the dream would be Chrom, but I don't picture that happening. Logic doesn't really favor one over the other, which of course makes neither seem a little likely unfortunately. F has 5 skills, M has a prf as well as a new skill. It'd be pretty cool to be able to get Dull Range(?) 3 at 4-stars though.

[Hilda]

6 hours ago, Anacybele said:

Yeah, but they'd be many times more helpful if they factored into arena defense too. I almost never get defense wins anymore now while I used to get them a lot.

Then the setup of your defense team isnt quite challening. What is your defense team and what skills do they have equiped?

[Ice Dragon]

5 hours ago, Humanoid said:

Admittedly the implication would be that 6-stars would at minimum have +20BST on 5-stars which is a little on the high side.

That's not how rarity works in this game.