What FE game should be Reworked?

[Shadow Mir]

8 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

Going to strongly disagree on removal of big maps for Genealogy, that is the most appealing gameplay aspect about it it gives a scale and scope more fitting for grand war.  What should be done is an increase to movement accross the board, and other gameplay tweaks.  If they remove the big maps, that would be terrible, it would just be like every other small map fire emblem game.  

This.  I should note that Genealogy is a fan favorite not only cause of its story, but because people love the big maps and holy blood/skills and much of how the game plays bugs and all.  If you change that you might as well call it another game, that is just copying the story.  It would alienate many fans of the game, I certainly wouldn't give it a second look and see it as a slap in the face to the true fans of the game.  

I strongly disagree - I see the bloated maps as one of the big reasons its gameplay is a disaster.

[Lewyn]

7 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I strongly disagree - I see the bloated maps as one of the big reasons its gameplay is a disaster.

Well we disagree, but considering large maps are the original design and many people are fans of it, it would be better to stick with them.  I would prefer large maps for the other fire emblem games and think it would make the gameplay much better, should my preference be taken, even if it goes against the original intent of the game and what fans of the original game prefer?  No.

Also I think it has the best gameplay in the series as do many others.  So disaster is just an opinion.  

Making genealogy just another boring small map game, would be the worst mistake a remake could make.  That doesn't mean they can't increase movement, make other gameplay tweaks, but changing one of the core special elements of a game is IMO a major no-no when remaking something.  

Edited March 22, 2018 by Lewyn

[Acacia Sgt]

Personally, I think Genealogy's big maps have potential and can be appealing. Specially for their grand-scale depiction of stuff happening in big areas. For complaints like unit movement disparity, it can be solved by simply having more stuff happen on the map so not every unit has to go from Point A to Point B to Point C, and lagging behind if their Mov is not high enough. Genealogy already has cases like this, like Chapter 9's "Enemy groups go after every castle at once". So perhaps more of that, or change terrain so cavalry has to take the long route. Road tiles in Genealogy already give a Mov boost to infantry units, so keep that as well.

Then again, perhaps I'm just not bothered by big maps. Or maps that feel big. I've played SRW and their "Area is one long snaking corridor over a medium to big square/rectangle area" maps have never been much of a bother to me. Specially in the "And all units much reach the end point before Turn X" variety, either. Then again, you can sort of cheat there with SRW battleships.

Edited March 22, 2018 by Acacia Sgt

[Shadow Mir]

8 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

Well we disagree, but considering large maps are the original design and many people are fans of it, it would be better to stick with them.  I would prefer large maps for the other fire emblem games and think it would make the gameplay much better, should my preference be taken, even if it goes against the original intent of the game and what fans of the original game prefer?  No.

Also I think it has the best gameplay in the series as do many others.  So disaster is just an opinion.  

Making genealogy just another boring small map game, would be the worst mistake a remake could make.  That doesn't mean they can't increase movement, make other gameplay tweaks, but changing one of the core special elements of a game is IMO a major no-no when remaking something.  

I don't see the appeal of big maps when a lot of Genealogy's problems are either enabled or made worse thanks to how big the maps are. I see no fun in a game where literally every single level falls victim to the same fundamental flaws. I also don't trust IS to make a Genealogy remake that's actually playable, especially with their penchant for being overly faithful to the original even when it's clearly detrimental to the game.

Edited March 22, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Armagon]

2 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Agreed with this. Especially the unit balance. It's Genealogy of the Holy War-level bad.

Ok no, the unit balance isn't that bad.

48 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

Going to strongly disagree on removal of big maps for Genealogy, that is the most appealing gameplay aspect about it it gives a scale and scope more fitting for grand war. 

Except that completely fucks over the gameplay and i've already gone over why.

48 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

If they remove the big maps, that would be terrible, it would just be like every other small map fire emblem game.  

I wouldn't mind, the game would be actually be good then.

31 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

Well we disagree, but considering large maps are the original design and many people are fans of it, it would be better to stick with them.

That's the biggest issue with a FE4 remake. Doesn't matter what you do, you'd still lose in the end. Change the game to actually make it good and you piss off fans of the original. Remain as faithful as possible and you make the original fans happy but piss off literally everyone else. Intelligent Systems cannot win in this situation.

Edited March 22, 2018 by Armagon

[Shadow Mir]

6 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Ok no, the unit balance isn't that bad.

Okay, so I exaggerated. But still, seeing how many units in the game are outclassed or just useless is stupefying.

[Armagon]

2 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

But still, seeing how many units in the game are outclassed or just useless is stupefying.

Yeah, that is the main (and actually only issue imo) with the unit balance. Half of the people who join you are Est-types. Maybe if they weren't, they'd be a lot easier to use.

[Lewyn]

Actually good is all opinion, there are many gameplay tweaks that could be done with still keeping big maps. Besides which it is really ignorant and narrow minded to think that it is impossible to make a fire emblem with larger maps.  

They can both stay true to the game and refine and innovate it so it appeals to many people. 

[Shadow Mir]

Just now, Lewyn said:

Actually good is all opinion, there are many gameplay tweaks that could be done with still keeping big maps. Besides which it is really ignorant and narrow minded to think that it is impossible to make a fire emblem with larger maps.  

They can both stay true to the game and refine and innovate it so it appeals to many people. 

That's a naive and idealistic mentality to have, if I may be frank.

[Lewyn]

Just now, Levant Mir Celestia said:

That's a naive and idealistic mentality to have, if I may be frank.

No just open minded and unselfish, if I may be frank.

[Shadow Mir]

1 minute ago, Lewyn said:

No just open minded and unselfish, if I may be frank.

I see it as overly optimistic - I think there's no middle ground where a Genealogy remake can please everyone. As @Armagon said, there are those who would have nothing to do with a Genealogy remake if it didn't change enough, and others would not be satisfied if it changed too much. Needless to say, I'm in the former camp.

[Lewyn]

3 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I see it as overly optimistic - I think there's no middle ground where a Genealogy remake can please everyone. As @Armagon said, there are those who would have nothing to do with a Genealogy remake if it didn't change enough, and others would not be satisfied if it changed too much. Needless to say, I'm in the former camp.

Isn't that what people said about the Gaiden remake?  Yet they kept the Celica route swamp/desert maps and spawns that people complained about.  Still most people loved the game.  

Nothing will please everyone, there will be doubters for every remake.  However it doesn't have to please everyone, it just has to please most people.  

[Armagon]

22 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

They can both stay true to the game and refine and innovate it so it appeals to many people. 

Yeah, here's how they do it

'

There's a map in FE7 that keeps the FE4 formual without being unnecessarily big. THIS is how FE4 should've been done.

10 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

Isn't that what people said about the Gaiden remake?  Yet they kept the Celica route swamp/desert maps and spawns that people complained about.  Still most people loved the game.  

The difference between Gaiden and FE4 is that Gaiden was severely held back by technical limitations. There was absolutely no way to speed anything up, which the remake fixed. As for the swamp and desert maps, yes, they are bad (the desert ones anyway, swamp maps are easily trivialized by Whitewings) but at least they are short. They aren't massive slogfests like FE4's maps.

[Shadow Mir]

15 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

Isn't that what people said about the Gaiden remake?  Yet they kept the Celica route swamp/desert maps and spawns that people complained about.  Still most people loved the game.  

Maybe it was, but there's a difference between a few unpleasant maps that don't take a long time to clear and having the entire game be a slog. Also, Gaiden was held back by technical limitations.

[Lewyn]

5 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Yeah, here's how they do it

'

There's a map in FE7 that keeps the FE4 formual without being unnecessarily big. THIS is how FE4 should've been done.

The difference between Gaiden and FE4 is that Gaiden was severely held back by technical limitations. There was absolutely no way to speed anything up, which the remake fixed. As for the swamp and desert maps, yes, they are bad (the desert ones anyway, swamp maps are easily trivialized by Whitewings) but at least they are short. They aren't massive slogfests like FE4's maps.

That map in FE7 has way less villages and everything is completely cramped.  

The desert and swamp maps usually with infinite summoned spawns of Echoes are the slowest slogfests there are in the history of the series.  Yet again despite all those complaints by some people, the game was enjoyed by most who played it.   

Edited March 22, 2018 by Lewyn

[Shadow Mir]

6 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

The desert and swamp maps usually with infinite summoned spawns of Echoes are the slowest slogfests there are in the history of the series. 

I disagree - nothing screams "slogfest" like a bloated map with hardly anything going on.

[Lewyn]

13 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I disagree - nothing screams "slogfest" like a bloated map with hardly anything going on.

Yes, yes.  Nothing going on, not the NPC battles and actions, the bandits, heroes arriving from different areas, enemies coming from different angles and areas.  Sure.

We obviously aren't going to agree on this and there is already another topic about FE4 echoes.  Maybe people can discuss other FE games to be reworked.  

[Armagon]

23 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

That map in FE7 has way less villages and everything is completely cramped.  

Much better cramped than an open map that's empty a good chunk of the time.

24 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

The desert and swamp maps usually with infinite summoned spawns of Echoes are the slowest slogfests there are in the history of the series.

You mean the stuff that the Whitewings trivialize just by existing? Kinda hard to call a map a slow slogfest when they can be ended in like 10 minutes.

[Shadow Mir]

10 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

Yes, yes.  Nothing going on, not the NPC battles and actions, the bandits, heroes arriving from different areas, enemies coming from different angles and areas.  Sure.

Well, it is hilarious that you tried to call something I could likely get done in like 10 to 15 minutes tops a slogfest... Also, I think the way bandits were handled in Genealogy was just bad.

Edited March 22, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Lewyn]

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Well, it is hilarious that you tried to call something I could likely get done in like 10 to 15 minutes tops a slogfest... Also, I think the way bandits were handled in Genealogy was just bad.

Kind of funny that you are so critical of horse emblem in FE4, but completing those slog fests super fast is dependent on whitewings.  Hypocritical much?  Yeah.

[Shadow Mir]

13 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

Kind of funny that you are so critical of horse emblem in FE4, but completing those slog fests super fast is dependent on whitewings.  Hypocritical much?  Yeah.

Better than downplaying the flaws of your favorite game... That's what I'd call hypocrisy at its finest. Also, the swamp maps are only a few of the maps. That's different from a game that playing feels like repeatedly playing chapter 24 in FE6.

Edited March 22, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Lewyn]

38 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Better than downplaying the flaws of your favorite game... That's what I'd call hypocrisy at its finest. Also, the swamp maps are only a few of the maps. That's different from a game that playing feels like repeatedly playing chapter 24 in FE6.

Lol so changing the subject now?  I was referring specifically to those swamp maps not the Echoes game as a whole.  

Sorry you don't like big maps, but it is hilarious that you believe everyone thinks the same as you.  

Edited March 22, 2018 by Lewyn

[Armagon]

48 minutes ago, Lewyn said:

Kind of funny that you are so critical of horse emblem in FE4, but completing those slog fests super fast is dependent on whitewings.  Hypocritical much?  Yeah.

Not really. There's a very good reason why FE4 is constantly referred to as "Horse Emblem". Does anyone refer to FE2/15 as "Whitewing Emblem"? No. Even without the Whitewings, the maps aren't that long......unless it's the original FE2 in which case, yeah, it's actually a slog because you can't speed things up with out a turbo option.

[Guest Dreamyboi]

Welp, looks like I'm turning off notifs for this thread.

[DragonFlames]

And today we learned: FE4 is the Holy Grail of Fire Emblem. Don't touch it or you'll get slaughtered.
Add that to the list of things not to do /say in the Fire Emblem fanbase, the other being criticising the Royal Siblings and Azura in Fates, because everything bad in Fates is Corrin's fault. Or the writing's. But the Royals and Azura? They are sacred and untouchable and nothing is ever their fault.
Someone should make a topic about that, actually. Even if it is as a satirical joke.

More on topic: What I'd like changed in another FE1 or 3 remake would be that all your units can visit villages, not just Marth. Being basically forced to give him the Boots or else ramming the turn count up to insane levels is not exactly what I would call a reasonable choice.