Multiple Enemy Nations

[Jotari]

There's one thing that really stands out about the conflict in the first game, and that's the fact that Marth isn't just fighting one enemy. It's an all out world war with four (five if you count Khaden) natons allied together against the protagonist and his allies. That's kind of ambitious for what is otherwise a sort of unambitious story, but it does manage to work. Each of the enemy kingdom has their own distinct feel and roll in the plot. Macedonia are the Wyvern guys that one of the major playable characters have family ties to. Grust are the horse guys with the stronges military that lead the charge agains Archanea (the country). Gra...doesn't really have a unit type (well the Gra page says all the Soldiers in the game come from there, but I that was evident enough for my mind) but they're the long time ally of Altea that betrayed Marth's dad. Khaden's the mage place with the real antagonist and the Dolhr is the place with the dragons and the big intimidating final boss.

I think having so many varied enemy nations makes the conflict feel a bit more morally complex. Why shouldn't Grust fight Altea? It's war, everyone else is doing it. The conflict feels more like something out of Spartan and Athens when they were repeatedly making alliances and enemies of each other and their surrounding lands. Almost every other game in the series  boils the plot down to one hostile nation ruining every one's day (typically the one with wyverns) that manages to sucessfully conquer half the continent before they're stopped. I think the only game that really tried to go for the multiple enemies route is Binding Blade with the Bern/Sacae/Ilia alliance and then the shenanigans on the Western Isles and Etruria. Genealogy also felt like it had multiple enemy nations given that the main enemy is made up very distinct duchys (and you spend half the game invading other nations that are...well hostile but not like THE big enemy in any way. It also has Thracia allied with the empire in the second gen). All the other games, Gaiden, Path of Radiance, Radiant Dawn (kind of, you play as one of the hostile nations there), The Sacred Stones, even New Mystery and Thracia, sequels to the games with multiple enemies, feel like you're fighting only one enemy. The 3DS games have even simplified it down further by removing most allied nations with Yllise only having three total nations (and Valm utterly failing to define any of its countries). I suppose I'm forgetting Kotaro and his ninja country in Fates, and I appreciate the fact that it's there, but Fates still also manages to be the biggest offender of a 1 v 1 conflict this side of Gaiden. Not that it's particularly a bad thing. It's just...I'd kind of like to feel like I'm fighting more than one belligerant nation some times. Makes it seem like it's less all one guy's fault (even though Shadow Dragon is, mostly, all Gharnef's fault).

Edited March 28, 2018 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

I would certianly like to see once again a FE with its central conflict being between coalitions of countries, at the scale of what the first game pulled. But true willing coalitions. As you said, Binding Blade kinda tries to pull the same, but Sacae and Illia aren't exactly Bern's allies but more conquered nations with Bern-friendly collaborateurs placed in charge. Well, it does work as well, makes me think of stuff like Napoleon putting his brothers in charge of Spain and Italy, or Vichy France during WWII; but well, I suppose as preferance I still like more willing participants. Medeus didn't had to conquer Grust, Macedon, or Khaein. They all joined for one reason or another, even if half of them were to stab Medeus in the back later.

[Emperor Hardin]

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

There's one thing that really stands out about the conflict in the first game, and that's the fact that Marth isn't just fighting one enemy. It's an all out world war with four (five if you count Khaden) natons allied together against the protagonist and his allies. That's kind of ambitious for what is otherwise a sort of unambitious story, but it does manage to work. Each of the enemy kingdom has their own distinct feel and roll in the plot. Macedonia are the Wyvern guys that one of the major playable characters have family ties to. Grust are the horse guys with the stronges military that lead the charge agains Archanea (the country). Gra...doesn't really have a unit type (well the Gra page says all the Soldiers in the game come from there, but I that was evident enough for my mind) but they're the long time ally of Altea that betrayed Marth's dad. Khaden's the mage place with the real antagonist and the Dolhr is the place with the dragons and the big intimidating final boss.

I liked the different enemy nations and their different military associates as well.

Gra is known as the weak link in Dolhr's alliances, so it makes some sense they would be related to an enemy type you don't see a lot.

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

Genealogy also felt like it had multiple enemy nations given that the main enemy is made up very distinct duchys (and you spend half the game invading other nations that are...well hostile but not like THE big enemy in any way. It also has Thracia allied with the empire in the second gen). All the other games, Gaiden, Path of Radiance, Radiant Dawn (kind of, you play as one of the hostile nations there), The Sacred Stones, even New Mystery and Thracia, sequels to the games with multiple enemies, feel like you're fighting only one enemy. The 3DS games have even simplified it down further by removing most allied nations with Yllise only having three total nations (and Valm utterly failing to define any of its countries). I suppose I'm forgetting Kotaro and his ninja country in Fates, and I appreciate the fact that it's there, but Fates still also manages to be the biggest offender of a 1 v 1 conflict this side of Gaiden. Not that it's particularly a bad thing. It's just...I'd kind of like to feel like I'm fighting more than one belligerant nation some times. Makes it seem like it's less all one guy's fault (even though Shadow Dragon is, mostly, all Gharnef's fault).

I like how in Genealogy, the enemy army in Silesia was mostly female even outside of the Pegasus Knight, it helped establish an identity for the country.

The Duchies of Grannevale also had identities as well, mostly they generally wielded the same weapon of their founder. I have to admit I was disappointed that no Ducchies like Dozel accompanied the Freege Forces in Thracia 776.

The DS games do make class differences in bandit maps. Typically bandits use Pirates, Myrmidons, Hunters and Dark Mages(FE12) as opposed to regular armies which use Fighters, Mercenaries, Archers and Mages.

[Acacia Sgt]

21 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

like how in Genealogy, the enemy army in Silesia was mostly female even outside of the Pegasus Knight, it helped establish an identity for the country.

Really? Wasn't that just Lamia and her squadron? The rest of the enemies barring the PK's are male...

Edited March 29, 2018 by Acacia Sgt

[Emperor Hardin]

4 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Really? Wasn't that just Lamia and her squadron? The rest of the enemies barring the PK's are male...

I thought the wind mages were female, but you are right. Still Lamia and her squadron was a large force.

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

I liked the different enemy nations and their different military associates as well.

Gra is known as the weak link in Dolhr's alliances, so it makes some sense they would be related to an enemy type you don't see a lot.

I like how in Genealogy, the enemy army in Silesia was mostly female even outside of the Pegasus Knight, it helped establish an identity for the country.

The Duchies of Grannevale also had identities as well, mostly they generally wielded the same weapon of their founder. I have to admit I was disappointed that no Ducchies like Dozel accompanied the Freege Forces in Thracia 776.

The DS games do make class differences in bandit maps. Typically bandits use Pirates, Myrmidons, Hunters and Dark Mages(FE12) as opposed to regular armies which use Fighters, Mercenaries, Archers and Mages.

Almost the shame Edda didn't try to deploy a bunch of clerics to bash you with staves in the last chapter. Although I think, much like Chalphy, most of the forces you fight there are made up of occupation forces and lopt sect members.

[Etrurian emperor]

I think Shadow dragon's approach to enemy nations shows why several enemy nations at once might not be a good idea. Because at the end of the day it ended with none of those nations being distinct from each other. Gra obviously stands out as the loser kingdom but what's the difference about Grust and Macedon aside from that one kingdom has wyvrens and the other doesn't?  Its something I guess but separating purely by the units they can field is the dullest way to do so. I mean they could have argued knightly Grust is more militaristic or the former slave people more  proud to overcompensate but we got none of that

In continents like Elibe or Tellius every nation feels at least somewhat distinct but the enemy countries from Archenea can be summed up as easily as ''evil knight country'' , ''evil wyvren country'' and ''Evil dragon country with hardly any dragons in it''. Dolrh in particularly suffered quite a bit from having to share the spotlight with so many of their toadies. Because you keep fighting the other kingdoms you barely encounter this supposedly all powerful conquering empire and nothing about it is developed to any degree. Had they decreased the enemy in number they might have been able to flesh them out a bit better. 

Geneology handled the multiple enemy states a lot better. I think this has to do with most of them not strictly being allied to each other. Gra, Grust and Macedon were all part of the same force which coupled with the lack of world building led to a big grey bloat. But the kingdoms in Jugdral each have their own ambition and don't really see the other evil countries as their partners. Tracia in particularly makes a distinct country for its rabbit of changing sides rather then being a willing vassal to the villains. 

Edited March 29, 2018 by Etrurian emperor

[Jotari]

25 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I think Shadow dragon's approach to enemy nations shows why several enemy nations at once might not be a good idea. Because at the end of the day it ended with none of those nations being distinct from each other. Gra obviously stands out as the loser kingdom but what's the difference about Grust and Macedon aside from that one kingdom has wyvrens and the other doesn't?  Its something I guess but separating purely by the units they can field is the dullest way to do so. I mean they could have argued knightly Grust is more militaristic or the former slave people more  proud to overcompensate but we got none of that

In continents like Elibe or Tellius every nation feels at least somewhat distinct but the enemy countries from Archenea can be summed up as easily as ''evil knight country'' , ''evil wyvren country'' and ''Evil dragon country with hardly any dragons in it''. Dolrh in particularly suffered quite a bit from having to share the spotlight with so many of their toadies. Because you keep fighting the other kingdoms you barely encounter this supposedly all powerful conquering empire and nothing about it is developed to any degree. Had they decreased the enemy in number they might have been able to flesh them out a bit better. 

Geneology handled the multiple enemy states a lot better. I think this has to do with most of them not strictly being allied to each other. Gra, Grust and Macedon were all part of the same force which coupled with the lack of world building led to a big grey bloat. But the kingdoms in Jugdral each have their own ambition and don't really see the other evil countries as their partners. Tracia in particularly makes a distinct country for its rabbit of changing sides rather then being a willing vassal to the villains. 

You're not entirely wrong, but you also have to bear in mind that the original Shadow Dragon came out in 1990. It was a very simple game with very limited dialogue, and for better or for worse the remakes stook to that. I think it's more than possible to have the Shadow Dragon set up of nations with the kind of world building of Jugdral or Tellius.

Also, to Shadow Dragon's credit, Gharnef was planning on betraying Medeus and Grist's alliance was tenuous, Medeus had to have hostages on hand just in case they decide to cut ties.

Edited March 29, 2018 by Jotari

[Hawkwing]

I wouldn't mind fighting multiple enemy nations in the next game, if only to have a mêlée à Trois level. BUT only IF they manage to be distinct from each other both aesthetically and in their politics, beliefs, resources, etc.

One of the first topics I made was a discussion on the cosmetics for the Switch game, and summarized, the knights of nation A should look different and distinct from the knights of nation B. Bandits should look as if they're just wearing civilian cloths, and whatever they could find, from pots to pans or leather, would make up their "armor," while the later enemies should look professional and practical. I also suggested that, because I wanted the faces/looks of your enemies to be randomized, that there would be a ratio of males to female enemy units you face, and it would differ depending on the nation. It would be one way to see the female classes more often, while also showing whether a nation is egalitarian, doesn't mind letting women fight, is reluctant to do so, or prohibits it altogether. I remember it being a bit immersion-breaking in Awakening knowing that the same fighter I'm fighting in a professional army has the same design as a the fighter that works as a bandit, or that the Grimleaf have the same unit designs as a completely different nation. It would be a lot more work, that's for sure, but it would help make each nation unique instead of making it seem as if each country bought their armor at the same store.

As for being different in politics, I haven't played the Tellius or Judgral games yet, but I have heard that those games did this aspect particularly well. Heck, I'd be satisfied if they did something like like in gaiden/echoes, where you're told the major differences between nations, but learn the finer parts through optional conversations.

[DragonFlames]

While I definitely like the idea, I don't think it's possible to flesh out multiple enemy nations to a satisfying degree if we assume a standard 25-28 chapter time window. It would require much, much exposition both in gameplay and off and even then, you'd still have your main protagonist(s) and antagonist(s) who need development and motivations. Fitting all of that into that time slot would cause more harm than good, in my opinion, especially with a more character driven narrative as Fire Emblem's. 

I can see the topic headlines right now: "(Insert FE game name here) tried to do too many things, now it sucks!" "What the hell? Neither the protagonist nor the main villain had any development!" "World-building was half-assed. Worst game in the series."

The way I see it, the concept itself is awesome, but the execution would be a question for another time and after the trainwreck that was Fates, I don't think IntSys has it in them to attempt something this ambitious and then not end up half-assing it.

[Jotari]

2 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

While I definitely like the idea, I don't think it's possible to flesh out multiple enemy nations to a satisfying degree if we assume a standard 25-28 chapter time window. It would require much, much exposition both in gameplay and off and even then, you'd still have your main protagonist(s) and antagonist(s) who need development and motivations. Fitting all of that into that time slot would cause more harm than good, in my opinion, especially with a more character driven narrative as Fire Emblem's. 

I can see the topic headlines right now: "(Insert FE game name here) tried to do too many things, now it sucks!" "What the hell? Neither the protagonist nor the main villain had any development!" "World-building was half-assed. Worst game in the series."

The way I see it, the concept itself is awesome, but the execution would be a question for another time and after the trainwreck that was Fates, I don't think IntSys has it in them to attempt something this ambitious and then not end up half-assing it.

Jugdral manages to give a good impression of eight nations, only one of which (Miletos) would I say was under developed. Tellius developed seven nations, two of which were kind of similar (the two bird nations) and an eight was only mentioned (Hatari), though we got some good details on it. There's no good reason why it can't be done. Do I think modern IS can do it? I'm not sure, but it's no reason not to try. What are we going to do? Just keep asking for games that we deem mediocre because we don't trust them to strive to do any better? Even if I don't like the writing of Awakening or Fates, I still respect them and apreciated what they tried to do. That could just be me, though.

[DragonFlames]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Jugdral manages to give a good impression of eight nations, only one of which (Miletos) would I say was under developed. Tellius developed seven nations, two of which were kind of similar (the two bird nations) and an eight was only mentioned (Hatari), though we got some good details on it. There's no good reason why it can't be done. Do I think modern IS can do it? I'm not sure, but it's no reason not to try. What are we going to do? Just keep asking for games that we deem mediocre because we don't trust them to strive to do any better? Even if I don't like the writing of Awakening or Fates, I still respect them and apreciated what they tried to do. That could just be me, though.

Tellius and Jugdral both had two games to do it, though. I can't speak for Jugdral, since I haven't played them yet, but at least in Tellius, they had it a bit easier since 1) the main group wasn't bound to one country and 2) only one nation was an actual enemy. 

[Jotari]

2 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

Tellius and Jugdral both had two games to do it, though. I can't speak for Jugdral, since I haven't played them yet, but at least in Tellius, they had it a bit easier since 1) the main group wasn't bound to one country and 2) only one nation was an actual enemy. 

Jugdral does it in one game. The midequal takes place in just a single country. And aside from Hatari, I don't think Radiant Dawn was necessary to expand upon the world. Path of Radiance still hits all the right beats. Daein is racist. Begnion is beuarcratic. Kilvas and Phoenics (probably spelt wrong) are sky pirates. Goldoa are powerful isolationists. Gallia are kind of tribal and egalitarian. Funnily enough, the least developed nation is probably Crimeia, despite having the most representation characterwise (probably). It's just kind of the good guys (aside from that one chapter at the port).

 

[DragonFlames]

Just now, Jotari said:

Jugdral does it in one game. The midequal takes place in just a single country. And aside from Hatari, I don't think Radiant Dawn was necessary to expand upon the world. Path of Radiance still hits all the right beats. Daein is racist. Begnion is beuarcratic. Kilvas and Phoenics (probably spelt wrong) are sky pirates. Goldoa are powerful isolationists. Gallia are kind of tribal and egalitarian. Funnily enough, the least developed nation is probably Crimeia, despite having the most representation characterwise (probably). It's just kind of the good guys (aside from that one chapter at the port).

Okay, fair enough.
Now that I think about it, maybe I'm the one putting too much emphasis on the whole "development" deal. You're right. You can develop a nation in just a few sentences and it wouldn't feel out of place. Sprinkle bits and pieces of information about the nations every now and again and you're good to go.
I think I let my own anxieties over whether or not my own world is fleshed out enough cloud my judgement a little.
To elaborate: I'm an aspiring writer and I attempt to write a story with a high fantasy setting. "Attempt" being the operative word here. It's... not going well.

[Emperor Hardin]

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

Almost the shame Edda didn't try to deploy a bunch of clerics to bash you with staves in the last chapter. Although I think, much like Chalphy, most of the forces you fight there are made up of occupation forces and lopt sect members.

The boss character of Edda, Rodan, was a bishop, fitting their theme.

5 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

In continents like Elibe or Tellius every nation feels at least somewhat distinct but the enemy countries from Archenea can be summed up as easily as ''evil knight country'' , ''evil wyvren country'' and ''Evil dragon country with hardly any dragons in it''. Dolrh in particularly suffered quite a bit from having to share the spotlight with so many of their toadies.

The last few chapters had infinite Manakete reinforcements.

The only time I can think of where Dolhr had only one Manakete was the Nyna's chapter in BSFE, maybe because they felt the defense ignoring breath was too much for generics to have in that chapter?

4 hours ago, Hawkwing said:

One of the first topics I made was a discussion on the cosmetics for the Switch game, and summarized, the knights of nation A should look different and distinct from the knights of nation B. 

That reminds in Radiant Dawn concept artwork, Crimean, Daein and Begnion Armor Knight all looked different. In the final game, they are just differed by palette.

4 hours ago, Hawkwing said:

It would be one way to see the female classes more often, while also showing whether a nation is egalitarian, doesn't mind letting women fight, is reluctant to do so, or prohibits it altogether.

Jugdral did this, that is female generics popping up in the enemy army such as female Heroes or Mage Fighters, with FE4 also having generic female bosses. Unfortunately Fire Emblem never did this again afterwards. Best guess is they are worried players don't want to kill female enemies.

4 hours ago, Hawkwing said:

I remember it being a bit immersion-breaking in Awakening knowing that the same fighter I'm fighting in a professional army has the same design as a the fighter that works as a bandit, or that the Grimleaf have the same unit designs as a completely different nation. It would be a lot more work, that's for sure, but it would help make each nation unique instead of making it seem as if each country bought their armor at the same store.

Whats weird with Valm is they use more Dark Knights then the Grimleal, despite Dark Knights wearing the image of Grima on their helmet.

Edited March 29, 2018 by Emperor Hardin

[Jotari]

24 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

The boss character of Edda, Rodan, was a bishop, fitting their theme.

Haha. I actually know that as I've just used Rodan for a fic I'm experimenting with at the moment.

24 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Jugdral did this, that is female generics popping up in the enemy army such as female Heroes or Mage Fighters, with FE4 also having generic female bosses. Unfortunately Fire Emblem never did this again afterwards. Best guess is they are worried players don't want to kill female enemies.

I'd say it had less to do with palyer worries and more to do with just not bothering. It's basically the same thing as customizing generics based on nation and as we've disucssed, they've never really done that. Ultimately it's nice to have some female generics thrown in there (and wouldn't really require that much work), but it's not actually that critical. If they were worried about players feeling bad for killing women, then they wouldn't include defense clerics for us to mow down.

[Emperor Hardin]

5 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I'd say it had less to do with palyer worries and more to do with just not bothering. It's basically the same thing as customizing generics based on nation and as we've disucssed, they've never really done that. Ultimately it's nice to have some female generics thrown in there (and wouldn't really require that much work), but it's not actually that critical. If they were worried about players feeling bad for killing women, then they wouldn't include defense clerics for us to mow down.

I don't know know about that, we almost never see minor female bosses and note the that appear tend to have tragic backstories. There's also stuff like the FE12 remake of a chapter recruiting the boss of Khadein results in only the female clerics stand down, while all the male units continue attacking. 

Note in the original, recruiting the boss resulted in all units leaving the map.

Also they rarely use clerics as enemies, only in a few games like FE4 and FE5, which again had gender enemies.

Edited March 29, 2018 by Emperor Hardin

[Hawkwing]

1 hour ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Jugdral did this, that is female generics popping up in the enemy army such as female Heroes or Mage Fighters, with FE4 also having generic female bosses. Unfortunately Fire Emblem never did this again afterwards. Best guess is they are worried players don't want to kill female enemies.

Interesting. Were their battle sprites any different, or was it the same model regardless of gender?

Also, I doubt that they were worried about player's not wanting to kill female enemies. After all, why would they give you so many female units in a game series with permadeath? I am ultimately curious as to why they never attempted to use the female battle models in any game if they went through the trouble of making them. It almost seems like a waste of resources, honestly.

[Emperor Hardin]

27 minutes ago, Hawkwing said:

Interesting. Were their battle sprites any different, or was it the same model regardless of gender?

Also, I doubt that they were worried about player's not wanting to kill female enemies. After all, why would they give you so many female units in a game series with permadeath? I am ultimately curious as to why they never attempted to use the female battle models in any game if they went through the trouble of making them. It almost seems like a waste of resources, honestly.

They used female map and battle sprites with the usual generic class icons. They were still outnumbered by the male enemies and were sometimes a little notable then the male enemies, but even so, it was a nice touch.

Also I can expand in a PM, there is definitely evidence in favor of IS worrying about players feeling guilt about killing female enemies. Do note player female units, the player is encouraged to keep alive.

Edited March 29, 2018 by Emperor Hardin

[Interdimensional Observer]

On 3/29/2018 at 8:54 AM, Etrurian emperor said:

In continents like Elibe or Tellius every nation feels at least somewhat distinct but the enemy countries from Archenea can be summed up as easily as ''evil knight country'' , ''evil wyvren country'' and ''Evil dragon country with hardly any dragons in it''. Dolrh in particularly suffered quite a bit from having to share the spotlight with so many of their toadies. Because you keep fighting the other kingdoms you barely encounter this supposedly all powerful conquering empire and nothing about it is developed to any degree. Had they decreased the enemy in number they might have been able to flesh them out a bit better. 

 

To count the number of times you fight each nation, off the top of my head (because I fanfict rewrote SD a little so I remember this), excluding the SD gaiden chapters:

Spoiler

SD Prologue: Gra

Chapter 1- Bandits

Chapter 2- Bandits plus Grust contingent

Chapter 3- Bandits 

Chapter 4- Grust

Chapter 5- Macedon

Chapter 6- Macedon

Chapter 7- Macedon

Chapter 8- Grust

Chapter 9- Pyrathi

Chapter 10- Macedon

Chapter 11- Grust

Chapter 12- Dolhr

Chapter 13- Grust

Chapter 14- Gra

Chapter 15- Khadein

Chapter 16- Grust

Chapter 17- Dolhr

Chapter 18- Grust

Chapter 19- Khadein (I think it says thieves, but they're serving Gharnef- this is the Fane of Raman/Brainwashed Tiki chapter)

Chapter 20- Grust

Chapter 21- Macedon

Chapter 22- Macedon

Chapter 23- Khadein

Chapter 24- Dolhr

Final Chapter- Dolhr

So in total I count:

Gra: 1, 2 with SD Prologue

Grust: 7-8 (depending on how much you count C2)

Macedon: 6

Khadein: 2-3 (counting C19)

Dolhr: 4

Bandits/Pyrathi: 4

These are understandable numbers. Gra is in lore the weakest of them all, it doesn't have many to spare (now why is Gra so weak when Altea is supposed to be decently strong and even a little bigger? Is it just because Falchion? Or is Gra geographically less habitable? They don't explain.).

Khadein is a land of mages- not legions of warriors, and Gharnef has magical powers so he doesn't need them.

Dolhr is a rather infertile Manakete kingdom set up in barren lands after a dragon civil war likely slashed their numbers. How could they have conquered the world? Well... we don't fight many Manaketes- mostly humans under the Dolhr banner, presumably because Manaketes are so strong they didn't want to overwhelm the player with them in FE1. But it does leave you wondering why does Dolhr have humans in the first place. Only Chapters 24 and Final, the ending and therefore can be as hard as anything battles and Medeus's last line of defense being his own country, have significant numbers of Manaketes in them. To explain the Dolhrian world conquest, well Jiol is weak, so was Ludvik of Grust, Michalis usurped for reasons, and Gharnef just so happened to go Darksphere corrupt at just the right time. That, and who knows, maybe Dolhr actually brought all its Manaketes to the battlefield outside the country originally? But the impression is that Dolhr didn't outside of Archanea and Altea conquer the world by force at all.

Grust having the most appearances makes sense, being the strongest of all in Archanea.

Macedon however comes in a somewhat surprisingly close second place. 

New Mystery, assuming Hardin doesn't conscript mass numbers from occupied Grust or place Aurelians under the Archanean banner, in a way reflects on the results of SD's constant warfare. Macedon appears only in two fights, and Grust, outside of Lorenz's Chapter 1 rebellion, fields no enemy troops at all. Grust was drained of its fighting men, Macedon likely much the same, and Gra didn't have many in the first place. Archanea on the other hand, having had several years of no fighting and despite occupation, is able to fight quite vigorously (and of course DEH demanded it). Aurelis only appears in one fight, so I guess the vast plains are plainly infertile, or just not extraordinarily fertile- which is expectable IRL and Crimea was actually stated to be the same in the Recollections.

 

I will echo the sentiment that too many enemy nations can create issues- the Valm Arc being something of this. Not to say Atheist Humanist Conquerer & Plegia & Grimleal were too much in itself, three enemies are not too many, and the latter two are interconnected, but the way they went about treating them, Valm being an island from the other two, was a poor move. The more enemies there are, the more ambition there is and the more you have to execute carefully, which is a challenge in gaming plots- it can be difficult enough fleshing out a full set of notable commanders within a single enemy country (I don't think you can balance multiple developed generals in each country with multiple enemy countries, there isn't enough room I think for both- pick one or the other). And we should not speak of potential-enemies-potential-friends, going grey needs good execution as well.

Having one enemy nation can be uninteresting as well, the Black Fang in the vigilante past is interesting from what we hear, but in the present is a bit boring. You could likely say the same of Bern, but I haven't played FE6 yet. RD Begnion, despite some Senators being a bit generic, was a mono-enemy done fairly well. It was a continental superpower whose superpower status was felt and the dynamics of RD and world-building of Tellius made it a fine foe.

Edited April 1, 2018 by Interdimensional Observer

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

To count the number of times you fight each nation, off the top of my head (because I fanfict rewrote SD a little so I remember this), excluding the SD gaiden chapters:

  Hide contents

SD Prologue: Gra

Chapter 1- Bandits

Chapter 2- Bandits plus Grust contingent

Chapter 3- Bandits 

Chapter 4- Grust

Chapter 5- Macedon

Chapter 6- Macedon

Chapter 7- Macedon

Chapter 8- Grust

Chapter 9- Pyrathi

Chapter 10- Macedon

Chapter 11- Grust

Chapter 12- Dolhr

Chapter 13- Grust

Chapter 14- Gra

Chapter 15- Khadein

Chapter 16- Grust

Chapter 17- Dolhr

Chapter 18- Grust

Chapter 19- Khadein (I think it says thieves, but they're serving Gharnef- this is the Fane of Raman/Brainwashed Tiki chapter)

Chapter 20- Grust

Chapter 21- Macedon

Chapter 22- Macedon

Chapter 23- Khadein

Chapter 24- Dolhr

Final Chapter- Dolhr

So in total I count:

Gra: 1, 2 with SD Prologue

Grust: 7-8 (depending on how much you count C2)

Macedon: 6

Khadein: 2-3 (counting C19)

Dolhr: 4

Bandits/Pyrathi: 4

These are understandable numbers. Gra is in lore the weakest of them all, it doesn't have many to spare (now why is Gra so weak when Altea is supposed to be decently strong and even a little bigger? Is it just because Falchion? Or is Gra geographically less habitable? They don't explain.).

Khadein is a land of mages- not legions of warriors, and Gharnef has magical powers so he doesn't need them.

Dolhr is a rather infertile Manakete kingdom set up in barren lands after a dragon civil war likely slashed their numbers. How could they have conquered the world? Well... we don't fight many Manaketes- mostly humans under the Dolhr banner, presumably because Manaketes are so strong they didn't want to overwhelm the player with them in FE1. But it does leave you wondering why does Dolhr have humans in the first place. Only Chapters 24 and Final, the ending and therefore can be as hard as anything battles and Medeus's last line of defense being his own country, have significant numbers of Manaketes in them. To explain the Dolhrian world conquest, well Jiol is weak, so was Ludvik of Grust, Michalis usurped for reasons, and Gharnef just so happened to go Darksphere corrupt at just the right time. That, and who knows, maybe Dolhr actually brought all its Manaketes to the battlefield outside the country originally? But the impression is that Dolhr didn't outside of Archanea and Altea conquer the world by force at all.

Grust having the most appearances makes sense, being the strongest of all in Archanea.

Macedon however comes in a somewhat surprisingly close second place. 

New Mystery, assuming Hardin doesn't conscript mass numbers from occupied Grust or place Aurelians under the Archanean banner, in a way reflects on the results of SD's constant warfare. Macedon appears only in two fights, and Grust, outside of Lorenz's Chapter 1 rebellion, fields no enemy troops at all. Grust was drained of its fighting men, Macedon likely much the same, and Gra didn't have many in the first place. Archanea on the other hand, having had several years of no fighting and despite occupation, is able to fight quite vigorously (and of course DEH demanded it). Aurelis only appears in one fight, so I guess the vast plains are plainly infertile, or just not extraordinarily fertile- which is expectable IRL and Crimea was actually stated to be the same in the Recollections.

 

I will echo the sentiment that too many enemy nations can create issues- the Valm Arc being something of this. Not to say Atheist Humanist Conquerer & Plegia & Grimleal were too much in itself, three enemies are not too many, and the latter two are interconnected, but the way they went about treating them, Valm being an island from the other two, was a poor move. The more enemies there are, the more ambition there is and the more you have to execute carefully, which is a challenge in gaming plots- it can be difficult enough fleshing out a full set of notable commanders within a single enemy country (I don't think you can balance multiple developed generals in each country with multiple enemy countries, there isn't enough room I think for both- pick one or the other). And we should not speak of potential-enemies-potential-friends, going grey needs good execution as well.

Having one enemy nation can be uninteresting as well, the Black Fang in the vigilante past is interesting from what we hear, but in the present is a bit boring. You could likely say the same of Bern, but I haven't played FE6 yet. RD Begnion, despite some Senators being a bit generic, was a mono-enemy done fairly well. It was a continental superpower whose superpower status was felt and the dynamics of RD and world-building of Tellius made it a fine foe.

Oh wow, you only fight Gra once? I suppose I knew that on retrospect, still, it's kind of surprising. Really glad they gave Jiol a cameo in the prologue now.

[Interdimensional Observer]

12 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Oh wow, you only fight Gra once? I suppose I knew that on retrospect, still, it's kind of surprising. Really glad they gave Jiol a cameo in the prologue now.

Agreed. It makes sense in the narrative, adds some felt reasoning for Marth's personal enmity towards Gra, and gives Jiol who otherwise only appears in his one chapter (like Michalis, Medeus, and Camus) some good screentime. 

That reminds me that I forgot Macedon sends air support to Gra and Khadein, giving it 6-8 appearances total. The same as Grust! Macedon's monopoly on air power is that valuable. I heard Hardin's strat to defeat Marth once called "Dracoknights! Dracoknights! Dracoknights!" in terms of gameplay, so I guess wyverns are the bee's knees in Archanea.

The SD Gaidens feature (not that they have any relevance to the base games or the story at all really besides 24x):

Chapter 6x: Bandits ("Ruffians" is the official name for them)

Chapter: 12x: Grust and Horace's Archaneans

Chapter 17x: Grust

Chapter 20x: Grust

Chapter 24x: Keepers (so I''ll lump them with Bandits/other)

So Grust has even more fighting dudes, enough for 10-11 battles, the last, Chapter 20x, happens even after Camus "dies", a stubborn, hopeless but honorable resistance.

 

Also, apparently the Fane defenders are just called Raman, and in FE3, they're branded Dolhr, but FE3 also brands Gharnef's Thabes and Khadein forces Dolhr, which aren't actually the case at all. So I'll consider them Gharnef's/Khadein still, because he brainwashes Tiki beforehand, and likely controlled the Fane for preventing the acquisition of Starlight and having Tiki as a future anti-Medeus weapon.

 

When you think about, Shadow Dragon Marth probably should have been the least likely lord to succeed. He had what? The meagre resources of Talys, later Aurelis, a handful of Altean refugees, and that is about it. No major allies like Begnion or Frelia or Etruria or Issach to turn to. What Marth had to fight was:

A kingdom of powerful Manaketes

A manipulative invincible sorcerer with a very powerful dragon and a land of mages

The big military-focused land of knights and cavalry and everything else you can imagine

Except fliers, which the also very big kingdom of Macedon has in the spades

And the little kingdom of Gra

That is no little Begnion Occupation Army or Black Fang, we're talking every major country on the continent barring the crushed Altea and Archanea, and the barely surviving Aurelis army under Hardin.  Marth only wins b/c he's the main character in an NES-era plot game. And because his enemies act mostly reactively/defensively to his moves rather than just combining their resources and killing Marth lickety-split. Medeus can't leave Dolhr Keep to fight (but he could have at least sent his minions), Camus he doesn't trust at all, Michalis I don't know why he couldn't go and fight Marth himself unless Medeus didn't trust him either, Jiol was incompetent, and Gharnef was de facto independent. FE1's enemy countries are a mess of disunity and disorganization, if Medeus got his empire together he could have won, but he for some reason never did.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Agreed. It makes sense in the narrative, adds some felt reasoning for Marth's personal enmity towards Gra, and gives Jiol who otherwise only appears in his one chapter (like Michalis, Medeus, and Camus) some good screentime. 

That reminds me that I forgot Macedon sends air support to Gra and Khadein, giving it 6-8 appearances total. The same as Grust! Macedon's monopoly on air power is that valuable. I heard Hardin's strat to defeat Marth once called "Dracoknights! Dracoknights! Dracoknights!" in terms of gameplay, so I guess wyverns are the bee's knees in Archanea.

The SD Gaidens feature (not that they have any relevance to the base games or the story at all really besides 24x):

Chapter 6x: Bandits ("Ruffians" is the official name for them)

Chapter: 12x: Grust and Horace's Archaneans

Chapter 17x: Grust

Chapter 20x: Grust

Chapter 24x: Keepers (so I''ll lump them with Bandits/other)

So Grust has even more fighting dudes, enough for 10-11 battles, the last, Chapter 20x, happens even after Camus "dies", a stubborn, hopeless but honorable resistance.

 

Also, apparently the Fane defenders are just called Raman, and in FE3, they're branded Dolhr, but FE3 also brands Gharnef's Thabes and Khadein forces Dolhr, which aren't actually the case at all. So I'll consider them Gharnef's/Khadein still, because he brainwashes Tiki beforehand, and likely controlled the Fane for preventing the acquisition of Starlight and having Tiki as a future anti-Medeus weapon.

 

When you think about, Shadow Dragon Marth probably should have been the least likely lord to succeed. He had what? The meagre resources of Talys, later Aurelis, a handful of Altean refugees, and that is about it. No major allies like Begnion or Frelia or Etruria or Issach to turn to. What Marth had to fight was:

A kingdom of powerful Manaketes

A manipulative invincible sorcerer with a very powerful dragon and a land of mages

The big military-focused land of knights and cavalry and everything else you can imagine

Except fliers, which the also very big kingdom of Macedon has in the spades

And the little kingdom of Gra

That is no little Begnion Occupation Army or Black Fang, we're talking every major country on the continent barring the crushed Altea and Archanea, and the barely surviving Aurelis army under Hardin.  Marth only wins b/c he's the main character in an NES-era plot game. And because his enemies act mostly reactively/defensively to his moves rather than just combining their resources and killing Marth lickety-split. Medeus can't leave Dolhr Keep to fight (but he could have at least sent his minions), Camus he doesn't trust at all, Michalis I don't know why he couldn't go and fight Marth himself unless Medeus didn't trust him either, Jiol was incompetent, and Gharnef was de facto independent. FE1's enemy countries are a mess of disunity and disorganization, if Medeus got his empire together he could have won, but he for some reason never did.

Gharnef says that he's the only one protecting Tiki from Medeus when he tops up her brain washing, so I think it's outright confirmed that Medeus doesn't know Gharnef has her stashed away in there (or if he does, he doesn't want her there), so labelling those troops Dohlr probably is an oversight of some sort. As far as Marth's success goes, his taking of Archanea early is probably what really cinched it for him. He actually struggles and is forced to retreat not long after gaining Orleans, that's what the little trip to Pyrathi was. So if we apply a little headcanon, I think we can argue that he acually evaded the bulk of his enemies forces to recapture Arkanea. From there, it was probably more of a case of each of the world powers expecting someone else to deal with him while he slowly conquered them one by one. Of course that does pose the question as to why Archanea didn't get reconquered by Medeus during the second half of the game. Unless Grust, Macedonia and Dohlr did make a concentrated effort to retake it but Archanea wasn't as weakened as one would expect from the occupation, and that's why Marth was able to assault them on home territory so easily.

[Interdimensional Observer]

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

As far as Marth's success goes, his taking of Archanea early is probably what really cinched it for him. He actually struggles and is forced to retreat not long after gaining Orleans, that's what the little trip to Pyrathi was. So if we apply a little headcanon, I think we can argue that he acually evaded the bulk of his enemies forces to recapture Arkanea. From there, it was probably more of a case of each of the world powers expecting someone else to deal with him while he slowly conquered them one by one. Of course that does pose the question as to why Archanea didn't get reconquered by Medeus during the second half of the game. Unless Grust, Macedonia and Dohlr did make a concentrated effort to retake it but Archanea wasn't as weakened as one would expect from the occupation, and that's why Marth was able to assault them on home territory so easily.

My issue with the Pyrathi retreat is the presentation makes it feel rather emotionless, there is no dire sense of needing to flee nor a disaster having taken place. Hence the reversal of Marth's fortunes seems inconsequential and minor. But I do get how Minerva's tip off to Marth about Maria's location could have let him strike the soft underbelly of Archanea making the liberation there much easier.

Really, I think SD needed to put more emotion, detail, and non-Marth-Malledus-Nyna dialogue into its story presentation.

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

My issue with the Pyrathi retreat is the presentation makes it feel rather emotionless, there is no dire sense of needing to flee nor a disaster having taken place. Hence the reversal of Marth's fortunes seems inconsequential and minor. But I do get how Minerva's tip off to Marth about Maria's location could have let him strike the soft underbelly of Archanea making the liberation there much easier.

Really, I think SD needed to put more emotion, detail, and non-Marth-Malledus-Nyna dialogue into its story presentation.

I actually like the detached style of story telling in Shadow Dragon. It makes the plot feel more like a historical chronicle rather than a character drama. It supports the very formal way of speaking they have and conveys a different feel compared to every other game in the series.

Put yeah, actually showing why he needs to retreat by having Michalis or someone show up would have benefited too.

Edited April 2, 2018 by Jotari