omegaxis1 Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 10 minutes ago, Shotguner159 said: I wonder how Loptyr and Forneus' knew each other, given this origin for the Risen - and therefore the Deadlords, as they were Risen in Awakening. They clearly didn't. The most likely debate is that Loptyr memorized some of Forneus' research notes and used them in his cult. That or he used magic to perform necromancy. Honestly, there's gonna be a lot of debates about whether there is a connection between the Deadlords from Genealogy to the Risen Deadlords now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interdimensional Observer Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 15 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said: The most likely debate is that Loptyr memorized some of Forneus' research notes and used them in his cult. That or he used magic to perform necromancy. Honestly, there's gonna be a lot of debates about whether there is a connection between the Deadlords from Genealogy to the Risen Deadlords now. I would say no. How hard can independently discovering necromancy be? You have fountains that flow with the essence of life in Valentia, and Bragi's Dragon, who must have been weaker than Loptyr or Naga, granted their Crusader a staff able to resurrect the dead. The Aum staff too. Necromancy is flesh without, with a partial, or with a corrupted soul- a weaker form of true perfect flesh-and-soul resurrection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armagon Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 14 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said: They clearly didn't. The most likely debate is that Loptyr memorized some of Forneus' research notes and used them in his cult. That or he used magic to perform necromancy. Honestly, there's gonna be a lot of debates about whether there is a connection between the Deadlords from Genealogy to the Risen Deadlords now. The Deadlords seem to be different people every time they are summoned. Like, you have the 12 Deadlords in FE4. But in FE5, Evyel, Galzus, Sara, Lifis and Dagdar become Deadlords if they aren't recruited or if they die. But Evyel, Galzus, Sara, Lifis and Dagdar all live through the events of FE5, meaning that the Deadlords in FE4 aren't them. Instead, the Deadlords aren't names but titles. Titles given to significantly powerful undead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etrurian emperor Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 The extra info on Grima and his creator is quite nice and Forneus sounds like a lovely villain should he make his appearance in the series one day. But I do wonder if it wasn't better to give those pages for some extra Valentian history. The past kings and conflicts that came before Alm and Rudolf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shotguner159 Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 39 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said: They clearly didn't. The most likely debate is that Loptyr memorized some of Forneus' research notes and used them in his cult. That or he used magic to perform necromancy. Honestly, there's gonna be a lot of debates about whether there is a connection between the Deadlords from Genealogy to the Risen Deadlords now. The Deadlords the Grimleal use are 12 in number, use the same names and carry some of the Jugdral Holy Weapons. They're clearly meant to be related if IS wanted them to be a different set of undead just using the same name, why given them weapons from Jugdral? Why give them the same name at all? There's only ever 12 Deadlords on Jugdral, they predates the 12 Crusaders by nearly 200 years, implying that Loptyr could not produce more than 12. If he could, why would he not have an army of Deadlords? Undead are not hard to create in the Archanea universe. My theory is he had 12 Death Masks, so 12 Deadlords. And while the corpse changes, the Thanatophages in charge do not, which is why the name stays the same - it's for the mask placed on a corpse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dreamyboi Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 (edited) Okay so I'm not trying to derail the discussion currently going on so I'll just leave this here real quick: http://historyoftheemblem.tumblr.com/post/172728644486/valentia-accordion-berkuts-backstory Just gained more appreciation for Berkut, it's so frustrating that the only bit of his backstory that made it into the final game is a throwaway line about his childhood. It would have made him much more compelling and understandable to hear more of it and instead he just looked like a poorly justified crybaby. I get the feeling we'll be feeling this a lot the more this book is translated though, so there's no use complaining I guess Some of the information here seems like it conflicts with the main plot though. Edited April 8, 2018 by Dreamyboi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaxis1 Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Shotguner159 said: The Deadlords the Grimleal use are 12 in number, use the same names and carry some of the Jugdral Holy Weapons. They're clearly meant to be related if IS wanted them to be a different set of undead just using the same name, why given them weapons from Jugdral? Why give them the same name at all? There's only ever 12 Deadlords on Jugdral, they predates the 12 Crusaders by nearly 200 years, implying that Loptyr could not produce more than 12. If he could, why would he not have an army of Deadlords? Undead are not hard to create in the Archanea universe. My theory is he had 12 Death Masks, so 12 Deadlords. And while the corpse changes, the Thanatophages in charge do not, which is why the name stays the same - it's for the mask placed on a corpse. Based on what Forneus says, he made far more than 12 Death Masks. Remember that the entire Labyrinth of Thabes inside his workshop is crawling with Risen. Meaning that there are a LOT of them. As for why they are around in Awakening, duh. References. You're forgetting the entire goal of Awakening was intended to be one huge reference game. They're obviously going to try and make connections now possibly, but it was never meant to mean something big at first. 9 minutes ago, Dreamyboi said: Okay so I'm not trying to derail the discussion currently going on so I'll just leave this here real quick: http://historyoftheemblem.tumblr.com/post/172728644486/valentia-accordion-berkuts-backstory Just gained more appreciation for Berkut, it's so frustrating that the only bit of his backstory that made it into the final game is a throwaway line about his childhood. It would have made him much more compelling and understandable to hear more of it and instead he just looked like a poorly justified crybaby. I get the feeling we'll be feeling this a lot the more this book is translated though, so there's no use complaining I guess Some of the information here seems like it conflicts with the main plot though. Eh, would have preferred if they actually expanded on this in the actual game. Rather see it than being told it for this one. Especially since Berkut only makes a single justification of his strength being that he gave Alm a hard time when they had that one fight. But that was it really. Edited April 8, 2018 by omegaxis1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r_n Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 1 hour ago, Dreamyboi said: Okay so I'm not trying to derail the discussion currently going on so I'll just leave this here real quick: http://historyoftheemblem.tumblr.com/post/172728644486/valentia-accordion-berkuts-backstory Just gained more appreciation for Berkut, it's so frustrating that the only bit of his backstory that made it into the final game is a throwaway line about his childhood. It would have made him much more compelling and understandable to hear more of it and instead he just looked like a poorly justified crybaby. I get the feeling we'll be feeling this a lot the more this book is translated though, so there's no use complaining I guess Some of the information here seems like it conflicts with the main plot though. I dunno, the being a timid coward thing in his early childhood, and the stern mother, is interesting but doesn't really add anything to the character we see in the game. It's not like his past makes the tantrums more justified but honestly I don't think it needs justification: haughty nobles getting undone the moment something challenges them feels like a common trope in fiction. Especially ones who clearly have something to prove, since he was theoretically in line to be the next emperor. That said, if Berkut was meant to join the party it's feasible we'd have found out some of this in base conversations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkwing Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 1 hour ago, Dreamyboi said: Okay so I'm not trying to derail the discussion currently going on so I'll just leave this here real quick: http://historyoftheemblem.tumblr.com/post/172728644486/valentia-accordion-berkuts-backstory Just gained more appreciation for Berkut, it's so frustrating that the only bit of his backstory that made it into the final game is a throwaway line about his childhood. It would have made him much more compelling and understandable to hear more of it and instead he just looked like a poorly justified crybaby. I get the feeling we'll be feeling this a lot the more this book is translated though, so there's no use complaining I guess I honestly wonder how much of the characters backstory, as well as the timeline, was developed before Echoes was released, and how much was thought of afterwards. I get the impression that it's a mixture of both, as some of the information seems like it was created to give a feel for the world and characters for the development team to use, while other entries seem to be there to fix plot holes and add depth to characters that didn't exactly have much in the original game. I also wonder if they intended to have some of this information be present in the game itself, but didn't know how to insert it without it coming off as unrelated exposition or a pacebreaker, or if they simply didn't have the time and resources to implement it. I personally would have the timeline and a few character backstories as unlockables, but I can see how that could be an underwhelming reward for those who care more for gameplay than story. 1 hour ago, Dreamyboi said: Some of the information here seems like it conflicts with the main plot though. Care to give any examples? I'm just curious were you think there is conflicting information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r_n Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 7 minutes ago, Hawkwing said: I honestly wonder how much of the characters backstory, as well as the timeline, was developed before Echoes was released, and how much was thought of afterwards. I get the impression that it's a mixture of both, as some of the information seems like it was created to give a feel for the world and characters for the development team to use, while other entries seem to be there to fix plot holes and add depth to characters that didn't exactly have much in the original game. I also wonder if they intended to have some of this information be present in the game itself, but didn't know how to insert it without it coming off as unrelated exposition or a pacebreaker, or if they simply didn't have the time and resources to implement it. I personally would have the timeline and a few character backstories as unlockables, but I can see how that could be an underwhelming reward for those who care more for gameplay than story. Care to give any examples? I'm just curious were you think there is conflicting information. Berkut's extra fluff in particular probably was written from the start. It's nothing too much out of nowhere and probably written to give a better idea of how the character might appear, how they would act in the present, maybe even their voice and then decided what information to go from there. I bet Rinea has a bunch of info in her profiles that goes unsaid in the games and that might have always been there but left out because they didn't want to (for whatever reason) put a bunch of focus on Rinea. I bet you anything that it gets mentioned if she's ever put in Heroes...hopefully. Some stuff in the timeline is probably a mix. Like stuff like Rudolf having a brand and seeing Duma's degeneration in person multiple times was probably in their outlines before, but how it EXACTLY lined up with the Archanean calendar and the real nitty gritty stuff might have been fleshed out later. Forneus' records probably weren't so detailed, but they needed it plotted out so they could slim down to what they wanted to show in the game; then when time comes to give more info in a book or extra material they can flesh it out. Like maybe they wrote "Okay, its a homonculus, used divine dragon blood, probably killed him" but then fleshed out al the particulars like the horse womb and hte gestation period. The book of revelations was probably writtein in full, then chose which bits would show up in the amiibo dungeons. We may never know exactly why x information was left unsaid in a game, and echoes is hardly the only game that does that, sadly. Though with Berkut, I could see that information cut for time. He has all those playable character voice clips (& Fernand) that it's, again, feasible that he (& Fernand) were meant to join you in the end game and this was changed later in development. Thus leaving aside his more detailed backstory. Also possible Berkut-based DLC was in the cards at one point, where this info might be drawn on, but they went with Deliverance DLC instead. It's fun to think about though. This was a lot of words to basically agree with you I realize, but I think the development of games and their lore is fascinating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dreamyboi Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 23 minutes ago, Hawkwing said: I also wonder if they intended to have some of this information be present in the game itself, but didn't know how to insert it without it coming off as unrelated exposition or a pacebreaker, or if they simply didn't have the time and resources to implement it. I hope that's the case, it would be a huge letdown if it turned out that all of these were afterthoughts. 24 minutes ago, Hawkwing said: Care to give any examples? I'm just curious were you think there is conflicting information. "he tries to destroy the Deliverance by taking the Zofian knight Fernand captive, but fails. He retreats to Rigel, then loses to Alm’s army again at the border, and is greatly wounded by criticism." Last I checked Fernand was captured alone and then was introduced to Berkut, then decided to work under him and leave along with him when Zofia castle was liberated. Then Berkut went to go challenge the Deliverence for fun to test them, only to get defeated and ride off with Berkut. Berkut never tried to capture Fernand IIRC. "A general of Rigel. His father, who died young, was Emperor Rudolf’s younger brother, making Berkut nephew to Rudolf. As a child, he was so timid that even riding a horse would make him cry, but his mother raised him strictly so that he would not be teased for not having a father, and so that he would become a great man worthy of becoming the next emperor." During one of his tantrums he mentions both his father and his mother as if he were raised by both, but here it's implied that he was raised by his mother alone. Again, this is IIRC so I could be wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightchao42 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 Speaking of conflicting information, the timeline mentions that Duma and Mila are unaware that dragons eventually degenerate, even though Mila unambiguously explains it and why Naga gave them Falchion to Alm and Celica in-game. Timeline: Quote Because Duma and Mila travelled from Archanea to Valentia in a very distant past, they were not present when[...]Naga warned of a "unpreventable demise", nor did they realize the ancient dragonkin would slowly lose their sanity. Mila in-game: Quote Mila: See well Falchion, which you now hold. It was carved from the fang of Naga, ruler of dragons, to sever the gods. For Naga knew there was but a creeping madness waiting at eternity’s end. It is a ruin all dragons share. And the only end is one of total destruction. Thus it was that Naga bestowed Falchion upon Duma. She did so to prepare for the day our madness would drive the land to ruin, that the people might have a means to destroy us. That Falchion might become the fangs they lack…and the hope they deserve. Mila seems pretty certain of Naga's intentions here, so it's strange unless you believe that Mila only realized it in hindsight while she was sealed by Falchion (since Duma apparently figured it out on his own as well). This also gives the implication that Naga knew about degeneration long before it became an issue but just didn't reveal it to the other dragons until later for some reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaxis1 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 14 minutes ago, Lightchao42 said: Speaking of conflicting information, the timeline mentions that Duma and Mila are unaware that dragons eventually degenerate, even though Mila unambiguously explains it and why Naga gave them Falchion to Alm and Celica in-game. Timeline: Mila in-game: Mila seems pretty certain of Naga's intentions here, so it's strange unless you believe that Mila only realized it in hindsight while she was sealed by Falchion (since Duma apparently figured it out on his own as well). This also gives the implication that Naga knew about degeneration long before it became an issue but just didn't reveal it to the other dragons until later for some reason. You know, I actually take this quote to now mean that Mila put together exactly what Falchion was intended for. When she was defeated by Rudolf, her sanity returned and she realized that she had began to lose her mind, and realized that Duma was too. Then it all became clear why Naga would hand Duma her fang like she did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightchao42 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 7 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said: You know, I actually take this quote to now mean that Mila put together exactly what Falchion was intended for. When she was defeated by Rudolf, her sanity returned and she realized that she had began to lose her mind, and realized that Duma was too. Then it all became clear why Naga would hand Duma her fang like she did. I suppose that makes sense, so maybe Naga didn't reveal it to the other dragons earlier to avoid mass fear and panic. I guess if I were a godlike ruler of a race doomed to go insane I would do the same thing. Though maybe I would've done something about Grima first... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaxis1 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 2 minutes ago, Lightchao42 said: I suppose that makes sense, so maybe Naga didn't reveal it to the other dragons earlier to avoid mass fear and panic. I guess if I were a godlike ruler of a race doomed to go insane I would do the same thing. Though maybe I would've done something about Grima first... Pretty much that. I mean, even if she told them, what would they be able to do about it? Assuming she actually knew about him. Currently none of the lore indicates that Grima and Naga ever had any contact. I prefer to think that the Sage's Shield was just something that Naga made and gifted them with, along with Divine Dragon blood as a sign of their species forming a good friendship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interdimensional Observer Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 Not going to read the profile of the guy with a Polish name unless Kirokan signs off on the translation, in respect to them and their hard work here. Conflicting information in an artbook doesn't necessarily strike me as odd. The Tellius Recollection had conflicting/strange information, like Ike as the Second Altina when it is never brought up ingame, the Laguz and Branded lifespans seemed a little off to me, as did the description of Phoenicis and Kilvas as fertile lands. And then there is whether Ashunera created the Laguz and Beorc- as the Recollection says, or if she only created the Zunanma, as is said in RD itself. However, in the case of Tellius, we already knew from prior sources about the games' development processes. Hence, the Begnion profile which speaks of Noad and Persis and Est and Razia, is explicable as describing the beta version of PoR, and that implies some of the other details are possibly not the final canonical game ones. In the case of SoV, this is our first real source of information. We have nothing to cross-reference to validate any part of what they are saying. ...Though this is making me question whether the Dawn Brigade notes were invented ex post facto or not. How long after the release of RD were they revealed? The closer to release, the more likely they are authentic. And what about the Tellius timeline, when was that revealed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaxis1 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 1 minute ago, Interdimensional Observer said: Conflicting information in an artbook doesn't necessarily strike me as odd. The Tellius Recollection had conflicting/strange information, like Ike as the Second Altina when it is never brought up ingame, the Laguz and Branded lifespans seemed a little off to me, as did the description of Phoenicis and Kilvas as fertile lands. And then there is whether Ashunera created the Laguz and Beorc- as the Recollection says, or if she only created the Zunanma, as is said in RD itself. She actually created neither. She created animals and fish and such. They evolved into the Zunanma. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulWeaver Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 (edited) If you're still doing votes, Kiro, I vote the Whitewings in general and Palla in particular, unnecessary though it may end up being since there probably isn't a lot to expound upon with those three lovelies and therefore nothing new to render their translation urgent. If there are any pages for the OverClasses(and potentially their origins as I found those dungeons quite intriguing), I'd like to see what little info they have there as well. Edited April 9, 2018 by SoulWeaver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interdimensional Observer Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said: She actually created neither. She created animals and fish and such. They evolved into the Zunanma. *Rechecks the script* You're right, for the ingame half of things. I'm pretty sure Kirokan's translation of the Recollection shows it is at odds with its "she made them in her image" assertion compared to the ingame claim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sock Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 Random question: Was Valentia's founding year Year 0 or Year 1? I'm curious about the randomest things... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interdimensional Observer Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 14 minutes ago, Sock said: Random question: Was Valentia's founding year Year 0 or Year 1? I'm curious about the randomest things... Calendars are not binary, they start with a year 1. Though it may seem odd according to standard basic math, year -1 and year 1 are only one year apart, not two, no zero between them. To bring in the global BC/BCE AD/CE calendar, you have before the birth of Christ/the Common Era, and you have after the birth of Christ/the start of the Common Era. The moment of transition from old to new is itself new. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VincentASM Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 Oh yeah, I forgot Mila explains the purpose of Naga's Falchion. However, in terms of the timeline, I do think it would make more sense if Mila and Duma didn't know from the start. My gut feeling is, similar to what was mentioned, Mila realised the purpose after she was sealed and "killed". Perhaps in the spirit world, she communed with Naga or other dragonkin or somehow gained knowledge in a way mortals cannot comprehend. Which reminds me, Awakening DLC spoilers... After Tiki was killed in The Future Past, she could still operate and perform the Rite of Awakening with Lucina. Although somehow, the Naga in that world completely vanished. So "death" for dragonkin seems complicated. Plus we have Loptyr and Medeus promising to resurrect when mankind lowers their guard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaxis1 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 1 hour ago, VincentASM said: Oh yeah, I forgot Mila explains the purpose of Naga's Falchion. However, in terms of the timeline, I do think it would make more sense if Mila and Duma didn't know from the start. My gut feeling is, similar to what was mentioned, Mila realised the purpose after she was sealed and "killed". Perhaps in the spirit world, she communed with Naga or other dragonkin or somehow gained knowledge in a way mortals cannot comprehend. Which reminds me, Awakening DLC spoilers... Hide contents After Tiki was killed in The Future Past, she could still operate and perform the Rite of Awakening with Lucina. Although somehow, the Naga in that world completely vanished. So "death" for dragonkin seems complicated. Plus we have Loptyr and Medeus promising to resurrect when mankind lowers their guard. Made a thread as to why Naga, despite dying, stuck around. It's because Naga is so strong in terms of both power and will, her quintessence allows her to remain on the world. Because it is said her power runs through the land in Mount Prism, Naga can exist always. In the past, Naga created avatars for herself to reincarnate into, such as Nagi in the Archanea series. However, now Naga took on a spiritual form, having full access to her powers, but only able to use them when someone performs the Awakening. Grima cannot kill Naga because after enough time passes, Naga would revive herself in a new incarnation. However, when Tiki took over the role of Naga, it was a case of Tiki inheriting and using that power, meaning that Naga now did fully die herself and cannot return ever again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VincentASM Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 8 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said: Made a thread as to why Naga, despite dying, stuck around. It's because Naga is so strong in terms of both power and will, her quintessence allows her to remain on the world. Because it is said her power runs through the land in Mount Prism, Naga can exist always. In the past, Naga created avatars for herself to reincarnate into, such as Nagi in the Archanea series. However, now Naga took on a spiritual form, having full access to her powers, but only able to use them when someone performs the Awakening. Grima cannot kill Naga because after enough time passes, Naga would revive herself in a new incarnation. However, when Tiki took over the role of Naga, it was a case of Tiki inheriting and using that power, meaning that Naga now did fully die herself and cannot return ever again. The only thing I'd argue against is, I'm pretty sure Nagi is just Naga but she woke up/revived early. When the game calls her an "avatar" on "incarnation", I don't think they meant it literally, but rather they were trying to keep the connection as vague as possible. Unrelated, I forgot to mention, but I always thought the Morphs in Blazing Blade had more in common with the Deadlords than the Risen. Of course, this doesn't really factor in the Awakening Deadlords being actual Risen. Hmm... Perhaps the new Deadlords are a combination of a Morph and a Risen (like a double corpse or something)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omegaxis1 Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 Just now, VincentASM said: The only thing I'd argue against is, I'm pretty sure Nagi is just Naga but she woke up/revived early. When the game calls her an "avatar" on "incarnation", I don't think they meant it literally, but rather they were trying to keep the connection as vague as possible. No, because Xane explicitly says that Naga died, not be put to sleep. They know the difference. Not to mention Gotoh never explicitly mentions that you will kill Medeus with Falchion either, merely defeat. The only time he ever refers to something as death with Medeus is after he is defeated for the last time in New Mystery, saying that Medeus was destroyed. That's because beforehand, he knew that Medeus's life force being so high would allow him to survive the the battle and only be rendered to a deep sleep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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