Character-specific promotions

[Eden Agleam]

23 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

And I honestly see the negative as far outshining the positive. As far as I'm concerned, this means IS gets free reign to screw over units as they please.

It's called being pragmatic. Look it up, please and thank you.

I do not need to look up anything. I am very aware that you are being "pragmatic" - I would call it cynical - but that does not mean I am not allowed to voice a disagreement. And ultimately, it comes off as needlessly condescending to tell me to "Look it up" when I argue an opinion contrary to yours. You have one opinion; I have another. That happens to be the whole concept of a discussion, which you seem to wholly disregard in favor of cynicism veiled as pragmatism. 

 

Yes, you do make good points that some character-specific promotions in Thracia are not wholly suited to the character. That, you are right on. Yet, the whole discussion is revolving around the idea that character-specific promotions can be good if they are balanced around, which is the truth in this hypothetical discussion. And there is nothing wrong with people having hopes for a future entry in a series they like, as that is often what being a fan of a series entails. 

So, I'm good. I am aware of what pragmatic means, and I would still respond to you the same way even if I didn't. I ave no desire to argue this point further, so so long and have a good day. 

[Codename Shrimp]

38 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Except I'd likely have to wait until promotion because the Wyvern Rider Phase is AWFUL.

stay in her original class until promo level -> Heart Seal -> Promo....

38 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

most growths would be rather low, especially for female units.

they were kinda low, but scrolls help https://imgur.com/a/NNkCFJv

 

 

[Shadow Mir]

33 minutes ago, Shimmerfang said:

I do not need to look up anything. I am very aware that you are being "pragmatic" - I would call it cynical - but that does not mean I am not allowed to voice a disagreement. And ultimately, it comes off as needlessly condescending to tell me to "Look it up" when I argue an opinion contrary to yours. You have one opinion; I have another. That happens to be the whole concept of a discussion, which you seem to wholly disregard in favor of cynicism veiled as pragmatism. 

 

Yes, you do make good points that some character-specific promotions in Thracia are not wholly suited to the character. That, you are right on. Yet, the whole discussion is revolving around the idea that character-specific promotions can be good if they are balanced around, which is the truth in this hypothetical discussion. And there is nothing wrong with people having hopes for a future entry in a series they like, as that is often what being a fan of a series entails. 

So, I'm good. I am aware of what pragmatic means, and I would still respond to you the same way even if I didn't. I ave no desire to argue this point further, so so long and have a good day. 

Okay, I am willing to admit my outlook on things is cynical. But when we're talking about devs that tend to make some really weird design choices, it can't be helped.

And that is something I am not willing to assume for reasons mentioned already.

20 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

stay in her original class until promo level -> Heart Seal -> Promo....

they were kinda low, but scrolls help https://imgur.com/a/NNkCFJv

I would still argue it's not worth it when there's better uses for my Heart Seals, which are in limited supply for most of the game.

I would argue that scrolls do not help enough, since only one scroll boosts Con growth, and it's only by 10%.

Edited May 2, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[X-Naut]

2 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Very easily, if axes are bad enough (see: FE6) or if the con system becomes relevant again, since most archers have little in the way of Con.

See above. Most myrmidons don't really have good Con scores... and I'd say Machua already proved this. It doesn't help that axe accuracy in Thracia was crap for the most part.

Because while they gain the ability to fight, now they're forced into using physical weapons, which they might not have the stats to use well...

lol Con argument

You're forgetting that GBA Constitution is a direct translation on promotion; an archer is going straight to warrior's 13 Con +/- their personal deviation from archer, same with myrm to hero. In games without access to good 1-2 range swords a bad hand axe is better than none, and with their high skill/speed chances are they still make better use than the unpromoted axe infantry. Heck even ignoring Con archer to warrior would be rad, even in FE6. Axes may not be reliable but unreliable 1 or 1-2 range trumps no 1-2 range, and they'd have instant killer axes because warriors have base C.

Also that pegasus argument is silly, a cleric is promoting to peg knight for a longer staff reach before she does it to fight.

[Shadow Mir]

45 minutes ago, X-Naut said:

lol Con argument

You're forgetting that GBA Constitution is a direct translation on promotion; an archer is going straight to warrior's 13 Con +/- their personal deviation from archer, same with myrm to hero. In games without access to good 1-2 range swords a bad hand axe is better than none, and with their high skill/speed chances are they still make better use than the unpromoted axe infantry. Heck even ignoring Con archer to warrior would be rad, even in FE6. Axes may not be reliable but unreliable 1 or 1-2 range trumps no 1-2 range, and they'd have instant killer axes because warriors have base C.

Also that pegasus argument is silly, a cleric is promoting to peg knight for a longer staff reach before she does it to fight.

The problem I have is, that was then. Who's to say what they'll do now...? Worse yet, this is a gender-locked class we're talking about.

True enough, but honestly, one of the main things I consider to be an upside of promoting healers is that they're no longer liabilities on enemy phase.

Edited May 2, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Moblin Major General]

7 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

True enough, but honestly, one of the main things I consider to be an upside of promoting healers is that they're no longer liabilities on enemy phase.

Even then, they could be in older games if you can't just pick up an E-Rank for them.

[Cysx]

17 hours ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

...Except that Miranda has to grind her Sword Rank from D up to B after promoting to even be able to use them.  And physical combat isn't exactly her forte.

Just a detail, but it would seem like promotion actually grants her an E. Which is weird, because unlike her starting Fire rank, which is at least stated as D+35 on the wikia, everyone seems to agree that promotion grants her D in swords.

https://i.imgur.com/uhh2nRr.png

I guess she can still ballista-tank with the elite sword regardless, but magic swords are completely out of her reach, without a doubt.

To be fair, D-staves that late in the game is almost entirely pointless as well. And lightning access is decent, but not ultimately necessary for her.

Edited May 3, 2018 by Cysx

[Griffinlwgameplayer]

Character specific promotions is an interesting Idea but it sorta depends on whether you are talking about the Stat based games in earlier fire emblem games or the Skill-based games that the new Fire Emblem games have come out to be. It sounds like an interesting idea for one character to promote from Cleric to War Cleric while another can turn into a Sage, but I honestly think it would be better to keep it as a two-choice branching path, like in Awakening

Because man would suck if you went to promote a pure magic user and found out that her only promotion option gave her swords as a secondary weapon option, or you made a plan that relied on her getting a skill belonging to a specific class only to figure out that she can't take that path. 

[Corrobin]

1 hour ago, Griffinlwgameplayer said:

Character specific promotions is an interesting Idea but it sorta depends on whether you are talking about the Stat based games in earlier fire emblem games or the Skill-based games that the new Fire Emblem games have come out to be. It sounds like an interesting idea for one character to promote from Cleric to War Cleric while another can turn into a Sage, but I honestly think it would be better to keep it as a two-choice branching path, like in Awakening

Because man would suck if you went to promote a pure magic user and found out that her only promotion option gave her swords as a secondary weapon option, or you made a plan that relied on her getting a skill belonging to a specific class only to figure out that she can't take that path. 

Hence why I said that the game should tell you what each unit promotes into.

[Griffinlwgameplayer]

I suppose that's also true. I suppose it would be interesting to have two units with the same base class but one turns into one class while the other turns into another, but it would probably have to be balanced based on their stats.

[Emperor Hardin]

18 minutes ago, Griffinlwgameplayer said:

I suppose that's also true. I suppose it would be interesting to have two units with the same base class but one turns into one class while the other turns into another, but it would probably have to be balanced based on their stats.

Tearring Saga did that interestingly. The Knight that promoted to a mounted unit had lower growths and less skills then the Knight who promoted to General.

On 5/2/2018 at 10:43 AM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I would strongly disagree - some of SD's changes arguably hurt the game, and a lot of the new stuff felt rather poorly implemented.

I'll make this discussion small and save the rest for another topic, but Echoes: SOV made Knights far worse then the original, while the DS remakes managed to greatly improve Knights, Fighters, and Pirates.

Edited May 3, 2018 by Emperor Hardin

[Corrobin]

Also, your argument about Axe accuracy? Archers usually have good Skill growths, so an Archer -> Warrior would probably have the Skill to offset the accuracy of Axes.

[Slumber]

2 hours ago, Corrobin said:

Also, your argument about Axe accuracy? Archers usually have good Skill growths, so an Archer -> Warrior would probably have the Skill to offset the accuracy of Axes.

I do really like the idea of Archers becoming Warriors. 

Even an Archer built like Archanea Hunters would probably become a decent Warrior. 

[Von Ithipathachai]

5 hours ago, Corrobin said:

Also, your argument about Axe accuracy? Archers usually have good Skill growths, so an Archer -> Warrior would probably have the Skill to offset the accuracy of Axes.

2 hours ago, Slumber said:

I do really like the idea of Archers becoming Warriors. 

Even an Archer built like Archanea Hunters would probably become a decent Warrior. 

This is exactly why I brought up Archer->Warrior in my initial response to this thread.  I could totally see Hunters getting Warrior as an alternate promotion if they came back in a branching promotion game (mainly from their portrayal in the Jugdral games as Bow-wielding Brigands), possibly also Assassin if Awakening-style Assassins return and Archers hold onto Bow Knight as an alternate promotion.

[Emperor Hardin]

3 hours ago, Slumber said:

I do really like the idea of Archers becoming Warriors. 

Even an Archer built like Archanea Hunters would probably become a decent Warrior. 

Hunter--> Warrior is pretty implicit in FE4-FE5.

In New Mystery, I always make Warren the hunter, a Warrior on promotion.

[Shadow Mir]

5 hours ago, Corrobin said:

Also, your argument about Axe accuracy? Archers usually have good Skill growths, so an Archer -> Warrior would probably have the Skill to offset the accuracy of Axes.

Once again, Warrior is a gender-locked class. Archer is not. What would be done with female archers then...?

On 5/3/2018 at 2:59 PM, Emperor Hardin said:

I'll make this discussion small and save the rest for another topic, but Echoes: SOV made Knights far worse then the original, while the DS remakes managed to greatly improve Knights, Fighters, and Pirates.

Okay, except I don't see what this has to do with gameplay improvements...

[Emperor Hardin]

9 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Okay, except I don't see what this has to do with gameplay improvements...

Shadow Dragon took the time to improve Armored classline.

Echoes: Shadows of Valentia didn't do anything to improve the Armored classline and their new additions made an already bad class, worse.

50 minutes ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

This is exactly why I brought up Archer->Warrior in my initial response to this thread.  I could totally see Hunters getting Warrior as an alternate promotion if they came back in a branching promotion game (mainly from their portrayal in the Jugdral games as Bow-wielding Brigands).

Funnily enough even the Archanean and Tearring Saga hunters are somewhat criminal.

Edited May 5, 2018 by Emperor Hardin

[Von Ithipathachai]

1 minute ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Funnily enough even the Archanean and Tearring Saga hunters are somewhat criminal.

I've always found this depiction of them kind of strange.  Though I think more of Jugdral when I think of criminal Hunters, since you don't get any recruitable Hunters at all in those games, as opposed to the Archanea games, which give you Castor and Warren.

[Emperor Hardin]

1 minute ago, Von Ithipathachai said:

I've always found this depiction of them kind of strange.  Though I think more of Jugdral when I think of criminal Hunters, since you don't get any recruitable Hunters at all in those games, as opposed to the Archanea games, which give you Castor and Warren.

Whenever you fight brigands, wild men, pirates, mercenaries, ETC in Shadow Dragon or Mystery, they always use hunters. Similarly to how regular armies never use pirates, they never use Hunters either. 

While Castor, outside of the NES era, doesn't have the muscle build typical of Hunters, he is somewhat criminal. He's first encountered working for pirates, become a conman after the War of Shadows and in BS Fire Emblem assists Rickard in robbing Archanea palace.

Warren is a rough mercenary who will take any job for gold. He also has the build of a axe infantry unit, he even wears a headband like the fighters.

Hunters are also unplayable in Tearring Saga, though one of the playable characters implied he used to be of the class.

In Berwick Saga, there is a playable hunter, he was a former bandit. In this appearance, Hunters use knives and have their own promotion, an infantry class that gains swords, though still favoring knives and bows.

[Slumber]

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Once again, Warrior is a gender-locked class. Archer is not. What would be done with female archers then...?

You act like they couldn't unlock the gender of the class. 

If they can make Berserker, the most masculine and clothesless class in the series, a gender neutral class, they can make Warrior gender neutral. 

[ping]

Not to mention that this very thread is about character-specific promotions. :D If for whatever reason the genderlock must be upheld, it would still be feasible for a specific male archer to have Warrior as an additional promotion option.

[Tetragrammaton]

1 hour ago, ping said:

Not to mention that this very thread is about character-specific promotions. :D If for whatever reason the genderlock must be upheld, it would still be feasible for a specific male archer to have Warrior as an additional promotion option.

Now it's Jamuka's turn.

[Codename Shrimp]

11 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Warrior is a gender-locked class

Errm. Fates removed the Gender lock on classes. If we now have a male Pegasi Kn., i am sure we can get a Female Warrior. (Although, Oni Chieftain is the 'Warrior replacement' in Fates, and Rinkah can be one)

Edited May 5, 2018 by Shrimperor

[Shadow Mir]

10 hours ago, Slumber said:

You act like they couldn't unlock the gender of the class. 

If they can make Berserker, the most masculine and clothesless class in the series, a gender neutral class, they can make Warrior gender neutral. 

 

41 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

Errm. Fates removed the Gender lock on classes. If we now have a male Pegasi Kn., i am sure we can get a Female Warrior. (Although, Oni Chieftain is the 'Warrior replacement' in Fates, and Rinkah can be one)

Erm, I'm not entirely willing to assume that that will remain the case come the next game...

[OakTree]

3 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

 

Erm, I'm not entirely willing to assume that that will remain the case come the next game...

Considering the lack of genderlock was almost unanimously agreed to be a good thing in the eyes of the fanbase, i doubt they would bring it back. As much as people try paint IS as deaf to their fans, they are not, they're just really, really bad on adressing criticisms towards their games. (e.g. The story of Fates  being the way it is because IS heard the feedback of Awakening's story being too simplistic)

Edited May 5, 2018 by OakTree