DiogoJorge Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 (edited) Sure thing. My thanks to TC .Let's keep our posts short and avoid unecessary hostility while at it. Edited July 15, 2018 by DiogoJorge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanes Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 Let's pretend this all starts from the beggining. Marcus is the best unit with his solid bases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balcerzak Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 1 minute ago, DiogoJorge said: That's not being offensive. I'm not being dishonest nor I'm misinformed (which is also not offensive). I didn't ignore any factual evidence, since there was nothing so far like that. Any evidence presented so far don't tell me how Marcus can be the best unit, when his stats don't reach 20 or higher for most part. Let's try explaining the best unit qualification another way. Assume each map a unit is fielded on you give them a rating from 1 to 10. And for the sake of argument, since we're judging Marcus on his performance when he's being used, we assume he is fielded on every map. so marcus's scores would go like 10 10 10 ... 9 ... 9 8 ... 8 7 ... etc. and never really drop below a seven. Then you'd do the same for whoever you're comparing him with, and that other unit isn't gonna catch up because marcus is so much stronger for so much longer. If we wanted to be even more accurate, we'd do a weighted average, because the early game chapters ought to be worth more, given they're much harder comparatively to your team strength. Any given team can steamroll endgame, after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DisobeyedCargo Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 Lyn starts off hard to use and other units are capable of doing her job well to where she's considered mediocre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanes Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 HeY boYS halp, can you not PromotE units in FE6 in the preps???!?!?!?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiogoJorge Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 Just now, This boi uses Nino said: Let's pretend this all starts from the beggining. Marcus is the best unit with his solid bases. His bases leave much to be desired, if all it did take as bases, then the game would be too easy to accept such bases. If you want to have a better time, you want growths, and Hector and a good deal of others have it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanes Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 Just now, DiogoJorge said: His bases leave much to be desired, if all it did take as bases, then the game would be too easy to accept such bases. If you want to have a better time, you want growths, and Hector and a good deal of others have it. Yes but let's not forget what it takes to get them to such a useful point. In this case Bases > Growths Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DisobeyedCargo Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 2 minutes ago, This boi uses Nino said: HeY boYS halp, can you not PromotE units in FE6 in the preps???!?!?!?! You can't I don't think I know it's dumb  2 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said: His bases leave much to be desired, if all it did take as bases, then the game would be too easy to accept such bases. If you want to have a better time, you want growths, and Hector and a good deal of others have it. But his bases are solid enough to give him a strong start, a strong Midgame, and a solid endgame Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aut Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 2 minutes ago, This boi uses Nino said: HeY boYS halp, can you not PromotE units in FE6 in the preps???!?!?!?! Nope. Everything has to be done on map, including statboosters. To answer the question at hand, obviously not, yes, and no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanes Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 Just now, DisobeyedCargo said: You can't I don't think I know it's dumb  But his bases are solid enough to give him a strong start, a strong Midgame, and a solid endgame Oh that's why dd151 said that "It took them 7 games to get the preps right"  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 3 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said: His bases leave much to be desired, if all it did take as bases, then the game would be too easy to accept such bases. If you want to have a better time, you want growths, and Hector and a good deal of others have it. Because good growths can help when your bases are so bad that you're nigh unusable, right? Oh wait, they cannot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiogoJorge Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 2 minutes ago, DisobeyedCargo said: Lyn starts off hard to use and other units are capable of doing her job well to where she's considered mediocre You are pretty much forced to use only her during Prologue, and she receives the Mani Katti after 2 chapters, which she can use to the end of her mode whitout any restrain due to it regenerating to full once she rejoins, you can give the iron sword to Sain, since she needs no other sword for her mode. So she starts easy enough. The only unit that can do her job better is usually Raven and Kent when it comes to swordfightning, due to being sturdier and having similiar SPD in HHM. Outside of swordwielding and those 2 units, the only units better than her are Lucius, Heath, Hector, Sain, Ninian/Nils and Matthew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balcerzak Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 I moved over most of the relevant posts from the old thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiogoJorge Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said: Because good growths can help when your bases are so bad that you're nigh unusable, right? Oh wait, they cannot. How so? Lyn is easily usable and good at that.  7 minutes ago, DisobeyedCargo said: But his bases are solid enough to give him a strong start, a strong Midgame, and a solid endgame Solid =/= usable. Being usable doesn't make you solid. If it was, then Dorcas would be solid. Edited July 15, 2018 by DiogoJorge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DisobeyedCargo Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 2 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said: You are pretty much forced to use only her during Prologue, and she receives the Mani Katti after 2 chapters, which she can use to the end of her mode whitout any restrain due to it regenerating to full once she rejoins, you can give the iron sword to Sain, since she needs no other sword for her mode. So she starts easy enough. The only unit that can do her job better is usually Raven and Kent when it comes to swordfightning, due to being sturdier and having similiar SPD in HHM. Outside of swordwielding and those 2 units, the only units better than her are Lucius, Heath, Hector, Sain, Ninian/Nils and Matthew There's also guy who's literally Lyn in all but class name and is more durable And that mani katti only carries her so far after Lyn mode, which not everyone even plays  1 minute ago, Balcerzak said: I moved over most of the relevant posts from the old thread Awesome Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 Just now, DiogoJorge said: How so? That's easy. If a unit has bad bases, they are highly likely to be unable to contribute because they can't do damage, and thus cannot kill enemies to level up, and/or get killed easily. See: Wendy from Sword of Seals, Meg from Radiant Dawn, Odin from Revelation, Donnel from Awakening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ping Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 8 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said: Yes. And rounding means that if a value is .5 or higher then it rounds up. Not in FE7 (or GBA!FE in general). Learn to factcheck. And if you're serious about the "count every support bonus twice" rule, it's literally impossible to have any odd support bonuses because the game only uses integers for both hit rates and damage numbers. Also - if a unit counters 5 enemies on EP, does that mean that their support bonuses should be counted five times? 16 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said: I'm not being dishonest nor I'm misinformed (which is also not offensive). It becomes offensive when you deliberately ignore information given to you. 17 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said: I didn't ignore any factual evidence You're doing it right now, unless you disagree with my personal opinion that the number three is, under circumstances that are relevant to Fire Emblem: Blazing Sword, bigger than two, but still not as big as four and five. (hint: I'm referring to the speed at which Hector/Florina grows) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DisobeyedCargo Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 aw man I'm no longer the topic creator units with bad bases have such bad starts that it's not worth the trouble to take advantage of their good growths Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just call me AL Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 3 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said: Solid =/= usable. Being usable doesn't make you solid. If it was, then Dorcas would be solid. Good thing Marcus is both usable and more than solid, then. And for the record, the fact that he lasts so long in 0% Growths runs should tell you that he lasts basically all game WITH GROWTHS. How you can pretend that isn't the case is beyond me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiogoJorge Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, DisobeyedCargo said: There's also guy who's literally Lyn in all but class name and is more durable And that mani katti only carries her so far after Lyn mode, which not everyone even plays   Guy is inferior. Lyn's supports are better, she has better LUK, thus better dodgetanking, better STR and uses the Silver sword faster due to gaining weapon experience faster. If it wasn't for his durability, then Lyn would outclass him in virtually everyway except SPD. The Mani Katti lasts the whole game if you use it correctly rather than use it for everysingle enemy. If you don't play it, then you are only handicapping yourself. So whatever they play or not, that's up to them, but does nothing to undermine Lyn other than their own experiences and as said before PEMN.  Quote Good thing Marcus is both usable and more than solid, then. And for the record, the fact that he lasts so long in 0% Growths runs should tell you that he lasts basically all game WITH GROWTHS. How you can pretend that isn't the case is beyond me. No, Marcus is only usable, he's only solid for 10 chapters or so, his stats aren't good enough to make the later chapters easier. The more stats you have, the easier they become and Marcus doesn't help on that front. Once again, 0% growth runs nerfs growth units pretty bad, so obviously they would have the disadvantage there. Why not use 0 Personal bases as argument then? Now growth units would have the advantage which would also be just as unfair. I'm not pretending anything, I'm just as suprised as you, that one would think that taking away growths from everyone in a different playthrough is a reason to use Marcus over units that grow more in a playthrough that doesn't use such rules. Edited July 15, 2018 by DiogoJorge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DisobeyedCargo Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 3 minutes ago, Just call me AL said: Good thing Marcus is both usable and more than solid, then. And for the record, the fact that he lasts so long in 0% Growths runs should tell you that he lasts basically all game WITH GROWTHS. How you can pretend that isn't the case is beyond me. Exactly! Thank you! Took the words right out of my mouth! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balcerzak Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 (edited) 11 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said: No, Marcus is only usable, he's only solid for 10 chapters or so, his stats aren't good enough to make the later chapters easier. The more stats you have, the easier they become and Marcus doesn't help on that front. Once again, 0% growth runs nerfs growth units pretty bad, so obviously they would have the disadvantage there. Why not use 0 Personal bases as argument then? Now growth units would have the advantage which would also be just as unfair. I'm not pretending anything, I'm just as suprised that one would think that taking away growths from everyone is a reason to use Marcus over units that grow more in playthrough that doesn't use such rules. The reason 0% growths is taken as a baseline is because it's possible, though horrendously unlikely, to get RNG screwed to such an extent, and thus forms the absolute floor of performance. 0 personal bases cannot, by definition, emulate an actual legitimate game state. Â Edit: Further, the point is, as always, the unit's performance against actual enemies. If they're both ORKOing, it doesn't matter if one is overkilling by a significantly larger margin. The job is still being done by the one who is merely competent. Edited July 15, 2018 by Balcerzak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aut Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 Anyways - on Lyn. Yeah she’s pretty bad IMO. Hardly unworkable, but then again, you don’t need to be unworkable to be considered bad. Her bulk is complete garbage against non-axe users, her combat being workable is basically completely tied to the Mani Katti, and she’s kind of bad at doubling the really fast enemies, since she promotes so late and doesn’t get speed on promotion. She doesn’t have 1-2 range, and no useful niche like staves or flight, which basically means that she’s mid tier at best for just about every single play style there is, since she can’t juggernaut, and juggernauting is a pretty dominating strategy in efficiency/casual play. I’d say she’s easily bottom 10 units for efficient play. Personally speaking I’d put Karla, Wallace, Nino, Rebecca, Wil, Renault, Bartre, and Karel below her, and that’s about it (although I could probably change my mind on Renault Bartre and Karel). Definitely worse than Marcus in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slumber Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 Oh good, this brain tumor of a subject got its own topic. No. In no reality is Lyn better than Marcus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ping Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 (edited) 35 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said: Guy is inferior. Lyn's supports are better, she has better LUK, thus better dodgetanking, better STR and uses the Silver sword faster due to gaining weapon experience faster. If it wasn't for his durability, then Lyn would outclass him in virtually everyway except SPD. Guy has higher Str than Lyn on HHM until level 20/17. Notably, the difference is bigger than 2 points (i.e. the difference between Mani Katti and Iron Sword) at the start of the game. When they promote (which gives them both +2 Str), the lead is still 1-2 points (11.6 for Lyn, about 13 for Guy. SF doesn't have his averages with HHM, so I can't be more accurate than this) and with Silver Swords and Killing Edges available, the Mani Katti isn't as relevant as it is in the earlygame. Avoid is 2*Spd + 1*Lck, so Guy's higher speed (both base and growth) means that he has higher avoid in the earlygame and only marginally lower avoid when both of them hit the speed cap. This is, of course, ignoring the fact that Guy can promote much earlier than Lyn. While Lyn has a longer support list, Guy does have two earlygame supports in Matthew and Priscilla, both of which are very likely to be fielded. Since supports are limited to at most 5 ranks per character, he isn't at a significant disadvantage in this regard. Interestingly enough, both of these supports give Guy full Atk and Crit bonuses, unlike Lyn/Hector, which only gives the latter. Adding in the crit bonus from being a Swordmaster, I'm 99% sure that Guy is the character with the potentially highest critrate in the game. (also - note that I made a previous post in the other topic and Balcerzak moved it to where it belongs. It's relevant, I think.) 40 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said: Solid =/= usable. Being usable doesn't make you solid. If it was, then Dorcas would be solid. Dorcas is a rock solid earlygame unit. Nothing fancy, but a pretty good filler until your roster fills up. Edited July 15, 2018 by ping Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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