Is Lyn better than Marcus/is Marcus good/ is Lyn good

[Koumal8]

1 hour ago, DiogoJorge said:

They do 0% growth runs to challenge themselves further, by taking away the best features of growth units, forcing you to use prepromotes. I'm pretty sure one can finish the game with prepromotes if they put more effort into it, but it's still easier to win by using units with better stats.

    Are we back to growths > bases, is this 2006? Are we back to endgame stats > bases/1-2 range/WTA control/move/utility/earlygame contributions? Is a bunch of stats the only thing that matters in a unit? "The higher a character grows the better"? Athos must really be at the bottom of your tier list then! Growths only matter for stats (ok, I think you know that) and stats only matter for those matchups that a unit will face and a unit with good stats is a unit whose stats allow to matchup favorably against the units they're gonna face. SPECIFIC MATCHUPS. Fist problem of yours that you might want to address: you NEVER bring up specific matchups with numbers, 1RKOs or 2RKOs etc..., you REALLY like to bring up numbers to compare playable units BETWEEN EACH OTHER but that is just not useful to your case! Now:

2 hours ago, ping said:

Pent targets Res instead of Def, which makes up for the effective damage - the difference between Def and Res on wyverns is at least 9 points, while the difference between effective Steel Bow damage (18) is also just 10 points higher than Thunder's base damage. Since Pent's Mag/Str is higher than Lyn's and both of them are fast enough to double reliably, he will consistently deal slightly more damage than Lyn despite the effectiveness multiplier. This ain't Shadow Dragon. Is it enough to explain this twice, or should I repeat this a third time?

  This is a GOOD EXAMPLE of bringing up numbers: while @ping could have been more detailed and actually shown some examples of WLs from a couple of chapters being 1RKOed or 2RKOed with the same level of efficiency by both Lyn and Pent, he gave you ACTUAL NUMBERS, he PROVED to you (unless you can mathematically prove him wrong) that Pent has the exact same level of offense against WLs than SteelBow@Lyn! And what was your reply?

1 hour ago, DiogoJorge said:

Pent is good enough, but Lyn is faster and can use Brave Bow as well later on which is more effective, since it attacks 4 times. Double damage with bows is still just as good, and Pent is still only one unit, He's good, but his growths means that he shouldn't see combat as often

  1) "Lyn is faster": who the hell cares? They can both double WLs since jointime/promotion respectfully; based Pent also has 51 Avo, put him on a fort and he's facing: 15 Hit Rates against Wyverns in Ch.22/23; between 10 and 25 Hit Rates against against Wyverns in Ch.24; between 19 and 32 Hit Rates against Ch.28x and then I can't find data on HHM enemies past those chapters, which means that he can dodgetank those lances well enough and RETALIATE with 1-2 range in EP

  2) "can use Brave Bow later on": fair point for once, you still seem to forget that BB@Lyn is happening way later in the game; also the big problem people have with BowLyn is that she's a sitting duck in the EP (as all bow units are) and BB weighs her down by 6 for -12 Avo, so considering evasion is what Lyn relies on the most for survival one could argue that there are better BB users in FE7

  3) "Double damage with bows is still just as good" well duh exactly, how does that make Lyn a better wyvern slayer than Pent?

  4) "He's good, but his growths means that he shouldn't see combat as often" What does this even mean? This is just painful to read: good units shouldn't be used because there are other units around with better potential endgame stats?! WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK?! IS THIS 2006?! Pent is a better Wyvern Slayer than Lyn due to more than solid stats that keep him relevant until endgame, 0 investment required into making him good, actual enemy phase potential and the staff utility is just icing on the cake and making him overall a unit that is miles ahead of Lyn, a unit that offers a raw offense that is on par with Lyn's (for the most part) but that is a more versatile kind of offense due to constant 1-2 range that allows for EP potential while also targeting the generally lower Res stat of the enemies and utility through staves that Lyn just can't offer you at no cost; it's Pent the unit that can do all that Lyn does and then some more, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND! The only thing that can be held against him is probably his late jointime.

  Now: I'm not the most experienced FE7 player out there, at all, there are probably ways you can counter my points, we're just asking that you do that in a sensible way: there are HHM enemy stats out there, look them up, come back and point to us when and how Lyn is (for example) a better Wyvern Slayer than Pent, what Wyverns she can slay that Pent can't and how that makes up for Pent being able to take on multiple enemies in one turn thanks to 1-2 range while Lyn is stuck with 1 OR 2 range against packs of Wyverns that always come mixed wielding both Javelins and Iron/Steel/Silver Lances. Please counter our points with FACTUAL NUMERICAL SPECIFIC evidence proving your counter points.

  Lyn is an infantry rangelocked unit that can do one thing and only one: fight enemy units, with no flexibility at all. No mount for rescuing, no 1-2 range, no staves, no flying, no nothing. If you want to prove to us that she brings more to the table than ALL THE OTHER UNITS that FE7 sports with solid combat and the added bonus of some kind of utility that opens up possible tactics to help clear chapters faster or save one of your units in a pinch after a misplay you better be able to show us exactly WHEN, WHERE and HOW her fighting potential can't be passed up. As the user above me excellently puts it

54 minutes ago, ping said:

Are you able to argue on a higher level than just "this is a big number"?

  When, how and where is Lyn so much better at combat than anyone else? Against which units in which chapters? Big numbers in a vacuum never mean anything, context is the word here. Last thing, concerning context: if you could tell us what playstyle Lyn is supposed to be amazing in, it would be good? In these kind of discussion we always assume HHM (obviously: it's the hardest difficulty, the best units in this mode can't but be even better in easier modes) and while we don't assume LTC (I never do LTC, but I'm fairly sure that in LTC Lyn isn't worth two rusty pennies) we DO assume some kind of relatively fast and efficient playthrough that like doesn't contemplate neither turtling nor arena abusing and somewhat penalizes infantry units and also growth units that start out with (even relatively) low bases and don't have the opportunity to gain many level ups to fulfill their potential (*hint hint Lyn nudge nudge*); but there areas you now know other ways to play the game and rank units, like LTC, 0% growths, Ranked etc... 

[Slumber]

You guys are effectively arguing with a wall. A wall that hasn't had a foundation in like 10 years.

Pick your battles. 

Write walls of text and convincing arguments for somebody who might bother  to consider them and take them to heart. 

Edited July 20, 2018 by Slumber

[MacLovin]

7 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

There are only a few mages, they can't be everywhere.

They have enough HP to endure a few magic spells, unless they have Lucius level of MAG.

So it's better to have an bow user around for extra wyvern slaying.

Hector. The first half of the game is chapters 11-22, Hector contributes the most for all those chapters, considering that he has a DEF and STR lead soon enough and that Marcus is utterly unecessary for chapter 12 and 19x, on top of that, not being part of chapter 11. Being good for the first half of the game isn't much of an incentive, considering that the other half also matters, specially since there are more sidechapters to take into account.

 

 

As for your mention on units that can kill wyverns.

Louise: Joins too late and is inferior in everyway to Lyn, her growths and bases aren't good enough. Silver Bows matter little when Lyn can use Steel bows and is faster and more durable than her at that point. Also, you might as well sugest Rebecca who is superior to Louise, who is also inferior to Lyn, but at least worth a deployment slot.

Pent: Good mage, but he doesn't cause effective damage which bows does, he's also not as fast nor can dodgetank as well as Lyn does, as well having less HP and barely passable growths.

Rath: Barely any better than Louise, since he joins almost as late, but instead of having some promoted like stats, he's stuck with his lv 8 or so stats. He's usually not worth using.

Hawkeye: Too slow, it might be enough to double some wyverns, but not all of them, he's also not worth deploying when Hector is faster than him.

Geitz: good unit, with decent stats and having some good growths as well, so far he's the only character you mentioned that I would approve of using. He's pretty much Lyn with less SPD but more durability, and having axes instead of swords. He would be about as good as Lyn is.

You are aware that fe7's NA localization toned weapon effectiveness to 2x instead of JP's 3x, right?

This means that Lyn using bows off that shit attack stat in HHM isn't anything special if some dude like Hawkeye can just as easily do it, but with a crit chance. Look up the HHM enemy stats on SF. I can't be fucked to go through the slog to post them here since you're just displaying your intelligence from the top of the bell curve, eh?

Comparing everything in terms of Lyn isn't a metric by any means. I get it, you like her but jesus fuck man. FE7 is an an enemy phase centric game. This means units are often judged by

• Availability. Which Lyn has.
• Durability. Which Lyn is shaky unless it's axe users or fighting Lancers with a reaver.
• EP combat. Which Lyn gets fucked hard since she has no 1-2 range and can't take more than 2 hits on the physical side
• Promotion times. Which Lyn gets fucked over since by the time it happens she's outpaced by over half the cast. 
• Utility- She offers fucking nothing lategame when the Mani Katti is used up. She has like D bows by Pent's jointime. This is barely workable. Granted she can nuke on PP early on, but she falls off so fast.

She's a solid mid-tier unit at best. 

 

You make claims without making use of the resources on SF, which even provide fucking HHM enemy stats. How the flying fuck are you still coming up with this double standard that boosts Lyn but nerfs everyone else who contributes more.

 

5 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

Wrong. I will lend you a ear, but I will have the final word in whatever one's advice or opinion is helpfull or not. Using Marcus isn't the kind of advice I would give to anyone playing beyond chapters 20.

Considering that Lyn has better stats by midgame than Marcus in key areas, it's really a case of 2+2 = 4, if we are to use mathematic equations for comparison. Blade Lord Lyn > Marcus at lv 5-8, wich is usually the level he is at by then.

They do 0% growth runs to challenge themselves further, by taking away the best features of growth units, forcing you to use prepromotes. I'm pretty sure one can finish the game with prepromotes if they put more effort into it, but it's still easier to win by using units with better stats.

Have you seen her stats? That's why it's late, at that point, she should have 14 STR at least and 35 HP, as well a 60% SPD growth rather than a 40%. Her stats aren't good enough to compete with Lyn as a result. As for Lyn's promotion, she didn't need it for the chapters before it, which Louise can't participate on to begin with. Lyn is there for way more chapters than Louise is, that's precisely why it's late. Louise has less STR, being able to double changes nothing.

Pent is good enough, but Lyn is faster and can use Brave Bow as well later on which is more effective, since it attacks 4 times. Double damage with bows is still just as good, and Pent is still only one unit, He's good, but his growths means that he shouldn't see combat as often.

I didn't ignore it, I adressed it as well, since he's still slow and not as durable as Hector who already has 17 DEF by that point he joins. He may be able to deal with regular wyverns, but I have better units for that that deserve that deployment slots.

Because Lyn contributes for way more chapters than he does, and I'm not wasting experience on Rath when Rebecca is already lv 15 or so by the time he joins. Lyn is lv 17 or so by then, so he's not going to better than her anytime soon.

 They can replicate, some of them inferiorly at that. Of the ones that you mentioned, only Pent and Geitz have merit, specially Geitz, since he's virtually Lyn with axes instead of swords.

I bring up better growths, because the higher a character grows the better. Not to mention that the more SPD, the better Lyn dodgetanks, specially coupled with her impressive LUK.

stop with the wyvern wanking. it's been covered.

also growths don't mean jack shit when the unit has shit bases and relies on the most unreliable form of durability. 

i'm not wasting earlygame exp on rebecca when rath comes in with a mount and C or B bows. he can easily take kills and promote right after the gaiden chapter that's after the desert. Bam he's like 15/1 with good stats, 8 move, and access to melee weapons. He's also got a lot more AS than rebecca/lyn/wil and can serve as an amazing rescuebot with massive con plus a ridiculous. Furthermore, unlike the guiding ring/knights crest/ elysian wing/hero's crest dudes, the orion's bolt has all of about jack shit for competition. 

There's a small period of time in between the end of the dread isle shit and the kenneth/jerme chapter where you fight MOBS of enemies. This makes it really easy for anyone with a mount and/or 1-2 range to get levels.  A good example of a common strat people have used is to give Fiona/Heath a pure water and a shitload of javelins in the desert chapter to get a shitload of levels. 

Lyn comes in during a time where durability, utility, and 1-2 range are highly valued. While the dread isle has axe enemies, everyone can deal with them. She can't take out much that any other competant combatant can't. 

Rath comes in at a time where levels are easy to get and when we're benching filler units like Lyn/Dorcas/Guy/Etc. 

 

5 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

 

If Lyn  has defensive failings as a Blade Lord, lances were rarely a issue for her, specially with Lancereaver if necessary. so does Marcus with his 10 DEF and 15% growth. Weapon triangle doesn't amount to much when you can only use 1 weapon per turn and when you cannot double as often with them. That's why Kent is superior to Lyn,but not Marcus, since Kent has good SPD.

Lyn is only 2 points away from his DEF by then and has a better HP growth and dodgetanks better, as well doubles enemies that Marcus can't due to his 25% SPD growth.

Correction, better dodgetanking, better SPD, better growths, better RES, better STR by lategame as well, since Marcus' best value is 20 while Lyn reaches 21 easier than he does. It doesn't matter what you dare say, Marcus isn't getting to any particular high level unless you are sandbagging Kent and/or Sain, even Lowen deserves to get more kills than Marcus does.

again, fucking look at the goddamned enemy stats for HHM. 

Marcus can easily take the earlygame dracoshield since he's one of the outright best recipients of it. Furthermore, he's there when the game's actually difficult and you want 1-2 range, durability, WTC+good combat, and high move.

Lyn gets 2-3HKO'd by nearby starting position pegs+ballistae in her rejoining chapter. 

2HKO'd if LHM isn't done.

Marcus remains a consistently good unit overall. He trails off around ch20-ish, but he still remains a really competant dude even in the face of earlypromoted LHM Sain/Kent, HHM Raven, and LHM boosted Florina. 

 

use numbers. use resources. stop cherrypicking and insulting the rest of us with your bullshit defenses.

[Florete]

17 minutes ago, Mister Rogers said:

again, fucking look at the goddamned enemy stats for HHM.

This is not the Mister Rogers I grew up watching...

Oh, uh, on-topic post...LynxFlorina OTP, gotta mod in a marriage ending for them.

[Interdimensional Observer]

13 minutes ago, Florete said:

Oh, uh, on-topic post...LynxFlorina OTP, gotta mod in a marriage ending for them.

Well it's better than HectorxFlorina, much much much much better. 

 

14 minutes ago, Florete said:

This is not the Mister Rogers I grew up watching...

Always assume every actor on children's programming had a shot of bourbon just waiting for them offscreen. It's better that way.

 

Why hasn't this topic gone to FFtF yet?

[MacLovin]

13 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Well it's better than HectorxFlorina, much much much much better. 

 

Always assume every actor on children's programming had a shot of bourbon just waiting for them offscreen. It's better that way.

 

Why hasn't this topic gone to FFtF yet?

to be honest, i don't know why this isn't fftf

[DiogoJorge]

7 hours ago, Slumber said:

You guys are effectively arguing with a wall. A wall that hasn't had a foundation in like 10 years.

Pick your battles. 

Write walls of text and convincing arguments for somebody who might bother  to consider them and take them to heart. 

I do consider them, problem being that it doesn't go past that, since it doesn't work for me, I'm not forced to take them to heart as long as they don't prove to be of much use to me.

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again, fucking look at the goddamned enemy stats for HHM. 

Marcus can easily take the earlygame dracoshield since he's one of the outright best recipients of it. Furthermore, he's there when the game's actually difficult and you want 1-2 range, durability, WTC+good combat, and high move.

Lyn gets 2-3HKO'd by nearby starting position pegs+ballistae in her rejoining chapter. 

2HKO'd if LHM isn't done.

Marcus remains a consistently good unit overall. He trails off around ch20-ish, but he still remains a really competant dude even in the face of earlypromoted LHM Sain/Kent, HHM Raven, and LHM boosted Florina. 

 

use numbers. use resources. stop cherrypicking and insulting the rest of us with your bullshit defenses.

I already looked at them plenty of times, I'm not convinced.

Waste of a dracoshield that should go to Kent instead. Kent has better growths, don't waste them on a poor man's paladin like Marcus. Kent will have 10 DEF as a result. Would you rather have one Paladin with a DEF of 12 that rarely grows, or 2 "Paladins" (Kent is still a cavalier with potential) with a DEF of 10 with one of them having better growths and promotion gains? Kent is the obvious choice. Marcus is one of the worst units to waste a dracoshield on, specially since he can tank just fine whitout it during the earlier chapters. The game doesn't feel much more difficult then, then when you have Linus/Loyd's chapter, Cog of Fate, Battle before Dawn, Night of Farewells and the Ostia's defense chapter.

Of the things you mentioned, Lyn has good combat and good stats, that's all that matters when deciding a good unit. For range attacks, she has bows. Her durability is her only issue, wich stops her from being part of the top 5 units, instead having to contend with 8th place. Movement is only for saving villages and chests, you don't need much of it once those are secured, Any move at 5 or above is good, specially since Hector has to reach the throne anyway.

How so? They never hit her, since their accuracy is crap and there's plenty of forest.

Irrelevant, since not playing LHM at all only serves to handicap you.

Not to me, he doesn't. He's consistently good as far as chapter 20, then he stops being all that great as both Hector and Kent outclass him while Lyn is close to do so as well. No need to waste experience on him at that point. Maybe push it a bit and use it as far as chapter 21, but beyond that he's simply of not much use when there are deployment slots to be taken by units which have a good deal of priority over him.

I do use numbers, just check Lyn's averages at lv 1 Blade Lord and compare them to a lv 8 Marcus. My defense is solid, so it's not BS, if you feel insulted over something like that, that's your own fault for being oversensitive.

 

Edited July 20, 2018 by DiogoJorge

[Koumal8]

45 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

I do use numbers, just check Lyn's averages at lv 1 Blade Lord and compare them to a lv 8 Marcus. My defense is solid, so it's not BS, if you feel insulted over something like that, that's your own fault for being oversensitive.

 

  Last time we tell you this: you're not using numbers right. You have to compare your playable characters numbers against enemy units numbers to show when how and where Lyn has such good combat against the enemies that you can't pass up her offensive capabilities, using averages in a vacuum just doesn't. Prove. Anything. Understood? YOU HAVE TO SHOW US SPECIFIC MATCHUPS. Why is that so hard to understand? BRING THEM STATS THE FUCK UP! DO YOU EVEN READ OUR REPLIES? I wouldn't be surprised to see some mod close this topic, I have never seen a less productive debate in my life. So, before this thread gets closed, could someone point me at FE7 HHM enemy stats for future reference? The thread here on SF is missing the later chapters it seems. 

50 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

Of the things you mentioned, Lyn has good combat and good stats, that's all that matters when deciding a good unit.

  Have you even read my reply? 20/20 Nino has amazing stats, is she the best unit in the game? 

[Tryhard]

It feels as though I'm back in 2008 again. At least I can appreciate the nostalgia.

[SavageVolug]

Hmmmmm.......let's see I could take the advise of a very biased FE player (we probably all have our biases but still) or I could take the advise of people who have played FE in so many differant ways it's ridiculous. (Randomizers, 0% growths, reverse recruitment the list goes on) Deltre, Domdom, Mekkkah, and so on I would consider better FE players to take advice from. As they have not only played the game, but have mixed things up as well.

[ping]

Wendy is the best Armor Knight in all of GBA!FE because she has a 40% Spd growth! Only Bors can keep pace with that, and he still loses to her because his Str growth is only 30% compared to her 40%.
Her start is a bit rocky because of her low base level, but a competent player should be able to overcome that hurdle and train her to level 20 before the end of chapter 12, at which point she can use the Knight's Crest from chapter 8 to unlock her full potential.
She is also the prime contender for the boots - they remove her only weakness. With 7 Movement, she's even faster than all of your other infantry units!

Final Score: 9.5 / 10 - I had to subtract half a point because she's not as cute as Sophia or Lilina and not as hot as Clarine or Lalum. Otherwise, she's a flawless character and an absolute MUST on any serious team.

--

Is that authentic? @Edgelord

I think the entirety of Diogo's last post can be summarized with [citation needed] and [factually wrong], as usual.

Edited July 20, 2018 by ping

[Aut]

2 hours ago, Koumal8 said:

So, before this thread gets closed, could someone point me at FE7 HHM enemy stats for future reference? The thread here on SF is missing the later chapters it seems.  

You know, I don’t have a list of all HHM enemy stats, but I do have a list of enemy attack speeds from Ch. 19 onwards, based on my last HHM playthrough. I didn’t record some reinforcements, and didn’t record Linus’s FFO/Jerme’s PFoD, but I can post it here if you want.

[Just call me AL]

4 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

I do consider them, problem being that it doesn't go past that, since it doesn't work for me, I'm not forced to take them to heart as long as they don't prove to be of much use to me.

He wasn't talking to you.

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Waste of a dracoshield that should go to Kent instead.

Considering that Kent has 14 Def at lvl 20/10, no it shouldn't. It should go to someone who, on average, has consistently better offense than Hector until about the last 2 maps in the game at the very least.

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Kent has better growths, don't waste them on a poor man's paladin like Marcus.

Once again using an oxymoron, I see.

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Kent will have 10 DEF as a result. Would you rather have one Paladin with a DEF of 12 that rarely grows

Said Paladin rarely needs to grow for most of the game; something you are not understanding.

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Marcus is one of the worst units to waste a dracoshield on, specially since he can tank just fine whitout it during the earlier chapters. 

It's the later chapters that draw the most concern in regards to Marcus using the Dracoshield. Seeing as with it, his defensive capabilities are never dropping.

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The game doesn't feel much more difficult then, then when you have Linus/Loyd's chapter, Cog of Fate, Battle before Dawn, Night of Farewells and the Ostia's defense chapter.

Out of all of those, only 1 is truly difficult. And even on that map, Marcus finds use, even if only due to his MOV and Res.

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Of the things you mentioned, Lyn has good combat and good stats, that's all that matters when deciding a good unit.

Good offense hardly matters if the unit that has that cannot use weapons that can significantly help her, or the durability to make up for having 1 Range or 2 Range.

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For range attacks, she has bows. Her durability is her only issue, wich stops her from being part of the top 5 units, instead having to contend with 8th place.

Lyn doesn't even reach the top 10, let alone the top 5. Surely the fact that she's considered to be a bad unit by some should tell you that. Also, once again, bows are a bad weapon type.

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Movement is only for saving villages and chests, you don't need much of it once those are secured, 

>Ignoring that the lategame maps are big, to say the least.

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Any move at 5 or above is good, specially since Hector has to reach the throne anyway.

But does he do so quickly enough to matter? No. He would either need a ferry, or to take the boots, to make up for that.

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How so? They never hit her, since their accuracy is crap and there's plenty of forest.

Forests aren't everywhere, and never underestimate WTD.

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Irrelevant, since not playing LHM at all only serves to handicap you.

This is an argument, how?

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Not to me, he doesn't. He's consistently good as far as chapter 20, then he stops being all that great as both Hector and Kent outclass him while Lyn is close to do so as well. No need to waste experience on him at that point. 

Considering that Hector takes 19 levels and a promotion just to catch up with Marcus' base Spd, which should tell you that the latter is outperforming the former 75%-90% of the time, I and countless others just don't see how that in any way means that Ch 20 is when Marcus "drops off". You can't have it both ways. If you're arguing that Marcus isn't worth using past then, then neither are the lords. Or anyone else in the game for that matter. It's as simple as that.

But then again, even the simplest of points have been proven to fly completely over your head.

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Maybe push it a bit and use it as far as chapter 21, but beyond that he's simply of not much use when there are deployment slots to be taken by units which have a good deal of priority over him.

Which don't exist for about 18 chapters from the time Marcus joins, at best.

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I do use numbers, just check Lyn's averages at lv 1 Blade Lord and compare them to a lv 8 Marcus. My defense is solid, so it's not BS, if you feel insulted over something like that, that's your own fault for being oversensitive.

Except such a comparison is unfair to Marcus. Especially since he's realistically past that without sandbagging. He should at least be past, or, at the very minimum be at, Lvl 11 by the time Lyn promotes. At which point, Marcus should have the offense of a Lvl 20/01 Hector (which you won't see then, considering Hector's forced promotion). 

[MacLovin]

6 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

I do consider them, problem being that it doesn't go past that, since it doesn't work for me, I'm not forced to take them to heart as long as they don't prove to be of much use to me.

I already looked at them plenty of times, I'm not convinced.

Then it's clear that you''re making up the combat performance relative to the game's enemies per chapter. People here have already brought up averages vs chapter enemies before. 

6 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

Waste of a dracoshield that should go to Kent instead. Kent has better growths, don't waste them on a poor man's paladin like Marcus. Kent will have 10 DEF as a result. Would you rather have one Paladin with a DEF of 12 that rarely grows, or 2 "Paladins" (Kent is still a cavalier with potential) with a DEF of 10 with one of them having better growths and promotion gains? Kent is the obvious choice. Marcus is one of the worst units to waste a dracoshield on, specially since he can tank just fine whitout it during the earlier chapters. The game doesn't feel much more difficult then, then when you have Linus/Loyd's chapter, Cog of Fate, Battle before Dawn, Night of Farewells and the Ostia's defense chapter.

Kent's the cavalier with the least potential when considering growths AND HHM availability. Sain's around for the same stuff and gets higher str and marginally higher defense. He gets marginally lower skl/spd. However, it's been established that skl/spd don't matter that much in fe7 beyond getting 15 AS to double most of the stuff.

By the way, Kent's defense growth lead is only about 2 points of an advantage over 20 levels. Bet you thought nobody on SF knew how to do basic math. 

also Marcus has a lot more value later on as a magic tank/res tank since he's got around 16+ res with a pure water boost later on. Kent's not hitting Marcus's base res until like 20/6. Marcus getting a dracoshield means you can afford to be more flexible with him later on.  Add on the fact that Marcus is likely hitting higher weapon ranks faster than kent/sain/lowen, which means he likely gets to use the short spear/tomahawk/etc when they come to boost his now average combat come lategame.

statboosters exist. prepromotes like marcus and isadora generally get the most use out of them as it allows them to keep up with the party without needing to rely on growths. 

There's been long standing arguments on the best cav in fe7, but it's generally come to LHM Promoted Sain/Kent>Sain>Lowen>Kent from what I've seen. I don't have a personal preference gameplay wise, but Sain's usually got more value since strength>spd for fe7 as a stat.

6 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

Of the things you mentioned, Lyn has good combat and good stats, that's all that matters when deciding a good unit. For range attacks, she has bows. Her durability is her only issue, wich stops her from being part of the top 5 units, instead having to contend with 8th place. Movement is only for saving villages and chests, you don't need much of it once those are secured, Any move at 5 or above is good, specially since Hector has to reach the throne anyway.

again, do we need to flood this thread with dondon vids, mekkah vids, and links to previous discussions?

it's obvious by now that you play by turtling. Lyn is especially good in turtle emblem since you can do whatever the fuck you want there.

but if I'm playing without turtling, then Marcus, Lowen, and Isadora become immensely more valued.

6 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

How so? They never hit her, since their accuracy is crap and there's plenty of forest.

there's plenty of maps without major forest areas. again, there's not too many chapters where she can get onto forests without going out of her way.

6 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

Irrelevant, since not playing LHM at all only serves to handicap you.

sometimes people don't want to go through the hour of playing an incredibly bland ass story to get some buffed units.

6 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

Not to me, he doesn't. He's consistently good as far as chapter 20, then he stops being all that great as both Hector and Kent outclass him while Lyn is close to do so as well. No need to waste experience on him at that point. Maybe push it a bit and use it as far as chapter 21, but beyond that he's simply of not much use when there are deployment slots to be taken by units which have a good deal of priority over him.

there's no such thing as wasting experience.

seriously.

stop with your authoritative tone. you haven't backed anything up with actual numbers beyond stats and broad generalizations.

6 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

I do use numbers, just check Lyn's averages at lv 1 Blade Lord and compare them to a lv 8 Marcus. My defense is solid, so it's not BS, if you feel insulted over something like that, that's your own fault for being oversensitive.

 

how the hell is your defense solid when people have pointed out that Lyn isn't comparable since she's a frail melee growth unit with late promotion versus Marcus being able to shitstomp the game up to like ch 22ish and still remain viable throughout.

Marcus is likely level 11-12 by the time he's dropped, when used by anyone who plays with any sort of speed.

Marcus also gets 1-2 range and isn't weighed down by fucking steel swords.

as pointed out by literally everyone here. you're being dishonest and seem to think that sandbagging and cherrypicking are the ways to go. they're not.

 

[Sage of the Mist]

15 hours ago, Slumber said:

You guys are effectively arguing with a wall. A wall that hasn't had a foundation in like 10 years.

Pick your battles. 

Write walls of text and convincing arguments for somebody who might bother  to consider them and take them to heart. 

Pretty much this. 

If walls of text and stats aren't going to change his mind,what's the point anymore. At the end of the day we can all spend hours on essays for this topic but every argument is inevitably going to be met with a simple "No your wrong"  with no back up evidance, counter argument or  justification. It's a futile effort at this point and i'm honestly surprised it hasn't been moved to FrtF or just locked. 

[DisobeyedCargo]

6 minutes ago, Sage of the Mist said:

Pretty much this. 

If walls of text and stats aren't going to change his mind,what's the point anymore. At the end of the day we can all spend hours on essays for this topic but every argument is inevitably going to be met with a simple "No your wrong"  with no back up evidance, counter argument or  justification. It's a futile effort at this point and i'm honestly surprised it hasn't been moved to FrtF or just locked. 

I'd ask for it to be locked but I think when relevant posts got moved it made someone else the topic creator 

[Florete]

6 hours ago, Sage of the Mist said:

It's a futile effort at this point and i'm honestly surprised it hasn't been moved to FrtF or just locked. 

It's not spam, trolling, inflammatory, or straying off-topic. No reason to do anything with it.

Edited July 21, 2018 by Florete

[Sage of the Mist]

1 minute ago, Florete said:

It's not spam, trolling, inflammatory, or straying off-topic. No reason to do anything with it.

True enough I suppose.

[DiogoJorge]

15 hours ago, Mister Rogers said:

Then it's clear that you''re making up the combat performance relative to the game's enemies per chapter. People here have already brought up averages vs chapter enemies before. 

Kent's the cavalier with the least potential when considering growths AND HHM availability. Sain's around for the same stuff and gets higher str and marginally higher defense. He gets marginally lower skl/spd. However, it's been established that skl/spd don't matter that much in fe7 beyond getting 15 AS to double most of the stuff.

By the way, Kent's defense growth lead is only about 2 points of an advantage over 20 levels. Bet you thought nobody on SF knew how to do basic math. 

also Marcus has a lot more value later on as a magic tank/res tank since he's got around 16+ res with a pure water boost later on. Kent's not hitting Marcus's base res until like 20/6. Marcus getting a dracoshield means you can afford to be more flexible with him later on.  Add on the fact that Marcus is likely hitting higher weapon ranks faster than kent/sain/lowen, which means he likely gets to use the short spear/tomahawk/etc when they come to boost his now average combat come lategame.

statboosters exist. prepromotes like marcus and isadora generally get the most use out of them as it allows them to keep up with the party without needing to rely on growths. 

There's been long standing arguments on the best cav in fe7, but it's generally come to LHM Promoted Sain/Kent>Sain>Lowen>Kent from what I've seen. I don't have a personal preference gameplay wise, but Sain's usually got more value since strength>spd for fe7 as a stat.

again, do we need to flood this thread with dondon vids, mekkah vids, and links to previous discussions?

it's obvious by now that you play by turtling. Lyn is especially good in turtle emblem since you can do whatever the fuck you want there.

but if I'm playing without turtling, then Marcus, Lowen, and Isadora become immensely more valued.

there's plenty of maps without major forest areas. again, there's not too many chapters where she can get onto forests without going out of her way.

sometimes people don't want to go through the hour of playing an incredibly bland ass story to get some buffed units.

there's no such thing as wasting experience.

seriously.

stop with your authoritative tone. you haven't backed anything up with actual numbers beyond stats and broad generalizations.

how the hell is your defense solid when people have pointed out that Lyn isn't comparable since she's a frail melee growth unit with late promotion versus Marcus being able to shitstomp the game up to like ch 22ish and still remain viable throughout.

Marcus is likely level 11-12 by the time he's dropped, when used by anyone who plays with any sort of speed.

Marcus also gets 1-2 range and isn't weighed down by fucking steel swords.

as pointed out by literally everyone here. you're being dishonest and seem to think that sandbagging and cherrypicking are the ways to go. they're not.

 

Yes, they did, and they only further convince me that I'm better off using Kent.

That's just plain wrong. Kent has better SPD, SKL, DEF, HP and RES growth. The only thing Sain has is STR at 60% which doesn't make up for it, he's good, but slightly inferior to Kent as a result. Specially if you plan to use javelins and handaxes which are inacurate and Sain only has 35% SKL, while Kent has 50%. Except it does matter since Sain only has 6 SPD against Kent's 7. Not only that but Sain also only has 1 point of DEF higher, while Kent has a better growth, meaning that he will overthrow him slightly in lategame. As Paladins they have virtually the same DEF, but Kent has better RES as well. Marcus has little potential considering his growths, so he's the one with least potential, his lv 20 stats should tell you that much.

And that's more than enough, And no, Sain cannot keep in the lead in DEF for long when Kent has 25% DEF over Sain's 20%. They are about equal in that departement for most of the game. I know you can do basic math, but do you know that a 2 DEF lead is still better and preferable?

I have other units that can tank magic better than he does at that point in the game. No need to waste a slot on him for that.

Statboosters aren't meant to be wasted on units that barely grow. I would never use them on Isadora, let alone Marcus. That are better units that deserve those first, like Hector, Kent and the like.

Not when you have to sacrifice SKL and SPD for it. Sain is slower and less accurate, Kent is preferable as a result. Specially if you use axes.

Don't bother bringing those up, because I've already watched them before and they failed to convince me. Mekkah's pitfalls are a hit and miss, he got some things right, but others are wrong, for instance, saying that Marcus is free 2000 xp, when in reality his stats are hardly better than a lv 12-15 Cavalier.

I don't turtle though. Lyn doesn't have to turtle, all she needs is to follow Hector's lead and clear a path for him alongside other units. The fact that I got most chapter under or close to the 5 rank turn count should tell you that much.

With or whitout turtle, those units don't offer anything beyond their use on a few chapters.

She doesn't need to, there are also forts and the like, even whitout those, she dodgetanks well enough.

Her story is great though. finding her grandfather and deal with the evil Lundgren and kill him for his sins, and it's heartwarming conclusion as Lyn gives back hope to marquess Caelin to keep on living. It is a great story that I never skip. Not to mention that is part of the full experience, it's not a full playthrough if you don't include those. If they want to skip that, they can do so, but if they use that as an argument, I will dismiss them as too lazy to be taken seriously.

I did though. Marcus averages and Lyn's Blade Lord averages. Those are numbers, so I can and should be authoritive and you will eat it and like it.

If she is, so is Marcus, since DEF 10 that will be lucky if it grows to 12 let alone beyond that value. While Lyn at least will be able to reach 10 points or so and have none of Marcus's weaknesses. Since she can dodgetank, she's already better at taking less damage than Marcus is by the time she promotes, since she only has 2 points less in DEF and way better SPD and LUK, not to mention a huge boost to RES. So, yes, it's solid.

At least you admit he is going to be dropped. But no, most likely he will be lv 8 or so. Unless you are overfeeding him kills that he doesn't deserve, since his growths tell you that much.

Being weighted down by steel swords isn't an issue when one has 20 SPD, making it 15, which is still much higher than what Marcus will ever have. since he's not reaching lv 17. 1-2 range means little, when Lyn has bows which allow her to attack at range and isn't hindered by low accuracy and low MT, not to mention that it usually makes no difference if you kill in player phase or enemy phase, since you have plenty of units to do clean up and let your other units move foward. Later on, only Hector can 1RKO with handaxes to begin with, since he's the one with higher STR and can double better than Marcus later on.

It doesn't matter if it's everyone or not. I'm not being dishonest, since I'm doing neither to begin.  Cherrypicking means to supress evidence, but so far you have yet to present any conclusive evidence. If you are going to acuse me of cherrypicking, then I will do the same, since it sounds to me that you just want to pretend that Marcus doesn't have poor growths and lategame stats that aren't that great. I'm not sandbagging Marcus, he would have to have at least 40% DEF and 30% SPD to be worth of gaining more experience than what he gets. He's an average unit past early game and that's final.

 

Edited July 21, 2018 by DiogoJorge

[ping]

1 hour ago, DiogoJorge said:

And that's more than enough, And no, Sain cannot keep in the lead in DEF for long when Kent has 25% DEF over Sain's 20%. They are about equal in that departement for most of the game. I know you can do basic math, but do you know that a 2 DEF lead is still better and preferable?

5% growth = 1 point in 20 level ups, or 1.9 points if a unit levels up from level 1 to level 20/20. At max level, Kent's Def lead over Sain is 0.9 points. There's only two possible explainations why you're talking about a 2 point difference:

1) You're being dishonest and hope that nobody checks the numbers that you just made up.
2) You're unable to do basic math and you're too lazy to look up the averages on the main page.

On the plus side - if we're just making up random numbers, then Marcus is the best unit in the game because he caps Str, Skl, Spd, Def, and Res at level */15 - earlier if he isn't RNG-screwed.
Source: Trust me, bro. I've played the game very often.

Edited July 21, 2018 by ping

[DiogoJorge]

1 hour ago, ping said:

5% growth = 1 point in 20 level ups, or 1.9 points if a unit levels up from level 1 to level 20/20. At max level, Kent's Def lead over Sain is 0.9 points. There's only two possible explainations why you're talking about a 2 point difference:

1) You're being dishonest and hope that nobody checks the numbers that you just made up.
2) You're unable to do basic math and you're too lazy to look up the averages on the main page.

On the plus side - if we're just making up random numbers, then Marcus is the best unit in the game because he caps Str, Skl, Spd, Def, and Res at level */15 - earlier if he isn't RNG-screwed.
Source: Trust me, bro. I've played the game very often.

His averages say that he has 1 points higher than Sain by late levels. I Forgot that it doesn't round up.

1)  Check the averages. He does have 1 point higher though

2) Wrong again. lv 20 Paladin Kent has higher DEF. And that happens before he reaches that level. Not to mention HP as well and RES, meaning, better tank, and faster at that.

It's not random numbers though, I've seen the averages. Marcus is inferior, and Sain as well while at it:

https://serenesforest.net/blazing-sword/characters/average-stats/kent/

https://serenesforest.net/blazing-sword/characters/average-stats/marcus/

http://serenesforest.net/blazing-sword/characters/average-stats/sain/

Source: I've played the game very often as well, so don't bother arguing using that argument.

Edited July 21, 2018 by DiogoJorge

[ping]

2 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

2 DEF lead

Option 1 it is!

edit: Unless you round up 0.9 to 2, in which case option 2 is still looking strong

Edited July 21, 2018 by ping

[Just call me AL]

1 hour ago, DiogoJorge said:

2) Wrong again. lv 20 Paladin Kent has higher DEF. And that happens before he reaches that level. 

Yeah... About that. 20/20 stats is typically never a valid argument for anyone who cannot realistically reach that level. By the end of the game, Kent being around 20/10 is more likely. And by the time you even have one unit reach 20/20, you already have a self-sufficient team. Hence why there's people who don't place much stock in lategame.

[DiogoJorge]

1 hour ago, Just call me AL said:

Yeah... About that. 20/20 stats is typically never a valid argument for anyone who cannot realistically reach that level. By the end of the game, Kent being around 20/10 is more likely. And by the time you even have one unit reach 20/20, you already have a self-sufficient team. Hence why there's people who don't place much stock in lategame.

Considering how usefull he is, he reaches lv 17 in late-endgame with little issue. That's unlikely, Lyn reaches lv 15-18 Blade Lord by endgame, let alone Kent. And that's not going into Hector who almost always reaches 20/20, so quite a few doe realistically reach that level.

Except, whitout a self-sufficient team, lategame is harder than early game to begin with, which is why people create that illusion that is less important when it's about the same if not more important than early game, that's why you should have a team that is about stats more than just being the bare minimum by using poor man units like Marcus. Kent is also the 3rd best unit in the game, so there would be no way he wouldn't be part of that team.

Quote

Option 1 it is!

edit: Unless you round up 0.9 to 2, in which case option 2 is still looking strong

Wrong. It is neither, since I forgot that you don't round up. I stated that before.

Edited July 21, 2018 by DiogoJorge

[Aut]

9 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

Considering how usefull he is, he reaches lv 17 in late-endgame with little issue. That's unlikely, Lyn reaches lv 15-18 Blade Lord by endgame, let alone Kent. And that's not going into Hector who almost always reaches 20/20, so quite a few doe realistically reach that level.

Except, whitout a self-sufficient team, lategame is harder than early game to begin with, which is why people create that illusion that is less important when it's about the same if not more important than early game, that's why you should have a team that is about stats more than just being the bare minimum by using poor man units like Marcus. Kent is also the 3rd best unit in the game, so there would be no way he wouldn't be part of that team.

Wrong. It is neither, since I forgot that you don't round up. I stated that before.

Hold on a second, Hector 20/20? Let’s look at the maps after he promotes

Ch. 30 - maybe 3 levels here? I mean Hector is promoted and basically all the enemies aren’t so it’s not like he’s getting all that much

Ch. 31 - He far back, putting him like a turn behind most units, and if you go with the turn 2 Denning kill start (the easiest way through the map) there’s not a lot of experience on the map, not to mention that most of the enemies will be dead when he catches up. Probably like 1 or 2 levels.

Ch. 31x - maybe 2 levels

Ch. 32 - this map is a super easy warp skip, just warp Vaida/another similarly high strength flyer in with the Brave lance and Filia’s might and Limstella goes down reliably, then Hector can be warped in, all that matters is getting there. I’d give him maybe 2 levels on this map due to the enemies at the start

Ch. 32x - this map is begging to be warp skipped. A 20 magic staffer means it’s an easy 1 turn rigged crit clear, without that you’re guaranteed an 18 magic staffer, which means it’s an easy 2 turn rigged crit clear.

Final - Yeah this map isn’t exactly super hard, in fact it’s quite easy with optimal Athos statboosters (speedwing + body ring for reliable 1 turn dragon clear). Honestly I don’t see Hector getting all that many levels here. Really just depends on your strategy.

Honestly this is just evidence for your turtle strategies that Hector gets so many levels, I mean really, it’s kinda silly.

”Lategame is harder than earlygame”

None of the lategame maps are that tough, except for Cog of Destiny, which is mainly due to the Valkyries, and just getting unlucky with Battle Before Dawn (which can be somewhat mitigated with, you know, mounted units). The main reason earlygame isn’t that tough is due to Marcus, he’s practically the only reason earlygame is seen as easy (no, Hector and Oswin aren’t nearly good enough to replace Marcus’s contributions earlygame). And Marcus is good for basically all of the lategame maps, since BBD and VOD are mount oriented (VOD mostly for a skip), COD has a bunch of physically frail slow magic units, and Marcus is a unit with fairly high resistance and good 1-2 range offense, and SOT has garbage AS for basically all enemies (I can count on one hand the ammount of units at the start of Sands of Time with more than 10 AS). Of course, mounts make it easy for Battle preparations to be done with all stores visited w/ silver card, and to maximize the ammount of time in the arena. He can also rig the kill on Kishuna in VOL. His worst lategame maps are NOF and Light, with NOF being due to the map being flyer oriented (although it should be pointed out that all the units you’re praising over Marcus don’t fly) and Final being due to the high stats of the enemies on the map (he can still be useful for mount stuff and other combat duties, but he isn’t exactly amazing). Not only is lategame not significantly harder than earlygame, I’d argue that Marcus is still a good choice for lategame.