Voting Gauntlet: The Chosen Ones!

[Anacybele]

2 minutes ago, Drakhis said:

Not everyone yes, but many peoples wanted her to be powerful. It reminds me Lewyn and Hector. If you want to complain about her, complain about them too. Hector is for arena what Veronica is for PvE.

Doesn't mean the other three can't be just as powerful. People surely wanted them to be powerful too.

[XRay]

3 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

They also offered three other choices for free, they could've been just as useful too, you know.

They are useful for scoring in Arena and Arena Assault. That mode is basically babying armor units and putting them on a pedestal to the detriment of high mobility ranged units.

[Drakhis]

3 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Doesn't mean the other three can't be just as powerful. People surely wanted them to be powerful too.

I have edited my comment and I say that they are (except Celica I think) but in different game mode. Hector and Ephraim are monsters in the arena, and Veronica is just meh. And if Veronica has win, it's not for nothing. She's as liked as Ephraim, and maybe more now that she gets her brave version. If Hector and Ephraim were as useful as her in every game mode, THEN it will be stupid because people could no longer choose the unit they want but a cheated unit in all modes.

Edited September 11, 2018 by Drakhis

[Anacybele]

4 minutes ago, XRay said:

They are useful for scoring in Arena and Arena Assault. That mode is basically babying armor units and putting them on a pedestal to the detriment of high mobility ranged units.

Okay. So then still, why couldn't anyone besides Veronica be helpful in Abyssal difficulty? I'd much rather use other healers, and I do have one that has Dazzling and Wrathful in Bride Lyn.

Edited September 11, 2018 by Anacybele

[Drakhis]

5 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Okay. So then still, why couldn't anyone besides Veronica be helpful in Abyssal difficulty? I'd much rather use other healers, and I do have one that has Dazzling and Wrathful in Bride Lyn.

 

Because healers were too weak before, that's why they created atk/spd push. More than that, it's a brave version so it had to be powerful. And my free summon was Hector, and I used him on Marth Legendary Battle. Before summoning Hector I had summoned a Neutral Veronica (I'm usually unlucky so I was happy). Both of them are great units.

Edited September 11, 2018 by Drakhis

[Anacybele]

3 minutes ago, Drakhis said:

Because healers were too weak before, that's why they created atk/spd push. More than that, it's a brave version so it had to be powerful. And my free summon was Hector, and I used him on Marth Legendary Battle. Before summoing Hector I had summoned a Neutral Veronica (I'm usually unlucky so I was happy)

Well, they should be stronger now, they can all access Dazzling or Wrathful refines. Though having both is harder.

[SuperTroll Maxim Lapierre]

6 minutes ago, Drakhis said:

 

Because healers were too weak before, that's why they created atk/spd push. More than that, it's a brave version so it had to be powerful.

More like healers were too expensive. +10 healer teams like those used by Lu Bu Feng Xian can actually wreck most of the content in this game, but he and anyone else had to whale for the skills and merges. Wrathful Staff, Close Counter, etc.

Edited September 11, 2018 by SuperTroll Maxim Lapierre

[XRay]

Just now, Anacybele said:

Okay. So then still, why couldn't anyone besides Veronica be helpful in Abyssal difficulty?

In my opinion, armor units are honestly plain crap. Without the ridiculous amount of babying and coddling from Arena, GHBs and LHBs highlight their crap mobility. They cannot function under any amount of stress.

AOTB!Celica is better than either two armor units because she has more reliable mobility.

AOTB!Veronica is superior because she is a non-armor ranged unit.

[Anacybele]

5 minutes ago, XRay said:

In my opinion, armor units are honestly plain crap. Without the ridiculous amount of babying and coddling from Arena, GHBs and LHBs highlight their crap mobility. They cannot function under any amount of stress.

AOTB!Celica is better than either two armor units because she has more reliable mobility.

AOTB!Veronica is superior because she is a non-armor ranged unit.

I wasn't talking about only the CYL units, I meant any units.

[XRay]

1 minute ago, Anacybele said:

I wasn't talking about only the CYL units, I meant any units.

That holds true for the rest of the cast. Armor units are good in Arena (assuming they have enough merges) because they are facing other armor units who are equally as worse as them. If you remove the BST and SP scoring bull shit, armor units would immediately be bottom of the barrel units, and I would argue Odin is better than most of them even without Odin's Grimoire. The only exception is TOD!Jakob who can abuse Armor Boots to its maximum potential with Firesweep Bow.

Infantry are better because they have more reliable mobility.

Cavalry are about the same as infantry. They might be faster, but with the release of trenches, they are not as good as they used to be.

Fliers are the best. Bows are hardly a theat if you can kill them first before they can kill you.

 

[Anacybele]

1 minute ago, XRay said:

That holds true for the rest of the cast. Armor units are good in Arena (assuming they have enough merges) because they are facing other armor units who are equally as worse as them. If you remove the BST and SP scoring bull shit, armor units would immediately be bottom of the barrel units, and I would argue Odin is better than most of them even without Odin's Grimoire. The only exception is TOD!Jakob who can abuse Armor Boots to its maximum potential with Firesweep Bow.

Infantry are better because they have more reliable mobility.

Cavalry are about the same as infantry. They might be faster, but with the release of trenches, they are not as good as they used to be.

Fliers are the best. Bows are hardly a theat if you can kill them first before they can kill you.

Even so, you still should be able to clear Abyssal with any of these. But in the end, I think Abyssal was a horrible idea anyway.

[XRay]

2 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Even so, you still should be able to clear Abyssal with any of these. But in the end, I think Abyssal was a horrible idea anyway.

I agree Abyssal is a horrible idea. I hate the bull shit stats and I generally prefer things to be easy and stress free.

However, that does not mean armor units are good enough to reliably clear them with their crap movement. GHBs and LHBs are designed to exert significant pressure on your units, and armor units simply do not work well under pressure.

[Anacybele]

9 minutes ago, XRay said:

I agree Abyssal is a horrible idea. I hate the bull shit stats and I generally prefer things to be easy and stress free.

However, that does not mean armor units are good enough to reliably clear them with their crap movement. GHBs and LHBs are designed to exert significant pressure on your units, and armor units simply do not work well under pressure.

I agree, I like things to be stress free too, though not necessarily easy. At a point, easy just becomes boring, but yeah.

[Drakhis]

1 minute ago, Anacybele said:

I agree, I like things to be stress free too, though not necessarily easy. At a point, easy just becomes boring, but yeah.

If the others legendary hero battle are as difficult as Marth and Grima I'm okay with it, I managed to win against Grima with F2P unit and only two seals. However, I would agree with you if the difficulty was even a little higher.

[Ice Dragon]

10 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Okay. So then still, why couldn't anyone besides Veronica be helpful in Abyssal difficulty? I'd much rather use other healers, and I do have one that has Dazzling and Wrathful in Bride Lyn.

The reason is because F2P guides CANNOT use other staff units with Wrathful Staff and Dazzling Staff because those skills are only available on 5-star pulls.

F2P guides are fundamentally restricted to using only units that were available for free. Not picking Veronica as your free choice, for example, is no different from missing the Tempest Trials that rewarded the Black Knight or foddering off your Fjorm or Legendary Ike.

Furthermore the existence of F2P guides doesn't prevent players from thinking for themselves if they don't have all of the pieces necessary.

 

2 minutes ago, XRay said:

In my opinion, armor units are honestly plain crap. Without the ridiculous amount of babying and coddling from Arena, GHBs and LHBs highlight their crap mobility. They cannot function under any amount of stress.

2 minutes ago, XRay said:

That holds true for the rest of the cast. Armor units are good in Arena (assuming they have enough merges) because they are facing other armor units who are equally as worse as them. If you remove the BST and SP scoring bull shit, armor units would immediately be bottom of the barrel units, and I would argue Odin is better than most of them even without Odin's Grimoire. The only exception is TOD!Jakob who can abuse Armor Boots to its maximum potential with Firesweep Bow.

Even if scoring weren't an issue, armors have very little trouble dealing with most threats in the Arena. That's because the Arena format is one that plays to the strengths of armors. The fact that units are almost never forced to engage in more than one or two rounds of combat in the Arena is what makes armors thrive there.

I actually think fully built armors shouldn't have much trouble with this game's challenge content. The problem is that the availability of armors is shit, the availability of skills used by armors is shit, and the diversity of armors is shit (no staff, no dancer, few naturally fast options, only one ranged option per color, etc.). The fact that most such maps have difficult-to-avoid counters for armors doesn't help, either.

The only weakness that is inherent to armors (and not caused by the fact that there are so few armored options in the game) is the fact that armors have poor map coverage. While their mobility and combat performance are better than infantry, their map coverage is worse because they are required to operate in pairs, which make them weaker when reinforcements spawn from all sides of the map.

[Anacybele]

12 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

The reason is because F2P guides CANNOT use other staff units with Wrathful Staff and Dazzling Staff because those skills are only available on 5-star pulls.

I wasn't talking about F2P. Just in general. Like why can't I use my Bride Lyn who has Wrathful and Dazzling?

[Ice Dragon]

8 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

I wasn't talking about F2P. Just in general. Like why can't I use my Bride Lyn who has Wrathful and Dazzling?

Nobody said you couldn't. You just can't use F2P guides with her as a substitute for Veronica.

[Anacybele]

2 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Nobody said you couldn't. You just can't use F2P guides with her as a substitute for Veronica.

I can't seem to find any guides that don't use her that work for me though. I've tried a couple, but the AI acts differently.

[Sayyyaka]

So glad Ephraim won.  He deserved it for being the first major victim of this shitty mode.

[Lewyn]

12 hours ago, Xenomata said:

 

Same actually, All the summoning I did the other day just rewarded me an extra (bad natured) Hector and 2 Death Blow 4 fodder. Still have yet to legit pull Veronica to, and the banner is going to end before I can afford another mass summoning session...

Legit pull Veronica, so you already chose her as your free unit?

@XRay I agree with you, fliers are the best and I think by some margin.  They have an assortment of playerphase ranged and melee nukes, as well as tanks, they are equipped to deal with everything.  Iote shield is a seal, unlike the other shields meaning it is easy to cover their one weakness without sacrificing much combat performance.  They have no BST penalty, they are same as infantry.  Their mobility is the best cause even though only 2 spaces, no trenches, and it ignores all terrain.  This allows such easy positioning and repositioning of units that you are almost never trapped in a bad situation.  

Edited September 11, 2018 by Lewyn

[XRay]

28 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Even if scoring weren't an issue, armors have very little trouble dealing with most threats in the Arena.

I am not convinced armors have much chance dealing with Firesweep nukes and obnoxious builds, which are pretty common in lower score ranges. Effective Weapon-Wings of Mercy can screw with a lot of Enemy Phase teams.

[Ice Dragon]

3 minutes ago, XRay said:

I am not convinced armors have much chance dealing with Firesweep nukes and obnoxious builds, which are pretty common in lower score ranges. Effective Weapon-Wings of Mercy can screw with a lot of Enemy Phase teams.

I don't think there's anything that your typical blue tome infantry can do that Valentine Lyn can't. Henry and Tharja can also be built for player phase since Bold Fighter is always a thing (and Henry is faster than Soren so can viably skip Bold Fighter). Two-pairs teams can still make use of Tactic buffs just like infantry (minus one C slot taken for Armor March), and majority-armor teams have Hone Armors if running Litrblade sets.

The only thing, as previously mentioned, is that armors are not as good at responding to reinforcements because they can't spread out. Other movement types can spread out because all they give up is stats, but armors, instead of giving up stats, lose their mobility.

[XRay]

7 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I don't think there's anything that your typical blue tome infantry can do that Valentine Lyn can't. Henry and Tharja can also be built for player phase since Bold Fighter is always a thing (and Henry is faster than Soren so can viably skip Bold Fighter). Two-pairs teams can still make use of Tactic buffs just like infantry (minus one C slot taken for Armor March), and majority-armor teams have Hone Armors if running Litrblade sets.

In my opinion, armor mages do not have reliable enough mobility to make the cut in a regular Player Phase team. I guess you can still make Dance/Sing-Reposition work by running Armor March on the other armor unit and have it tag along, but that makes the formation more complicated and unwieldy, and I am not sure that will work on more cramped maps.

A regular nuke does not have that problem and they can use Dance/Sing-Reposition in a more efficient manner.

[Xenomata]

1 hour ago, Lewyn said:

Legit pull Veronica, so you already chose her as your free unit?

Oh yeah, I'm not illogical. She's the one I wanted most after Hector (who I did legit pull with a great nature), which is exactly why I've yet to legit pull her.

[Hawk King]

3 hours ago, XRay said:

In my opinion, armor units are honestly plain crap. Without the ridiculous amount of babying and coddling from Arena, GHBs and LHBs highlight their crap mobility. They cannot function under any amount of stress.

AOTB!Celica is better than either two armor units because she has more reliable mobility.

AOTB!Veronica is superior because she is a non-armor ranged unit.

This past Arena cycle was the easiest for me since the Arena change. Ephraim was able to bait and kill (or initiate if needed) every single enemy with ease. And that was with no merges or Armor Ward stacking. Just Atk, Def, and Res Tactics support.

2 hours ago, Anacybele said:

I can't seem to find any guides that don't use her that work for me though. I've tried a couple, but the AI acts differently.

I used Pheonixmaster1's guide for Marth's Abyssal map, and I substituted my Elise for Veronica because I haven't gotten around to pulling her yet.

My Reinhardt was also much stronger and his special didn't line up the same way so I just improvised.

See what works, Grab your most comparable units and make adjustments where needed. In the meantime, continue to build units even if you might not like some that much) to make your team more well rounded. And there are always people who will help you as much as they can.