Tier 4 Skills

[Usana]

I am kinda surprised they went with Deathblow rather than a regular stat skill first. However, this is a brave hero so it makes since to go big. ATK+4 just wouldn't be as exciting.

[Jingle Jangle]

I wish to be better version of there skills

• Boost skills
• Fortress
• Guard 
• Obstruct 
• Pass
• Wind/Watersweep 

Or a skill shop.

[Diovani Bressan]

13 minutes ago, Jingle Jangle said:

I wish to be better version of there skills

• Boost skills
• Fortress
• Guard 
• Obstruct 
• Pass
• Wind/Watersweep 

Or a skill shop.

I want a dual sweep, which combine Windsweep 2 and Watersweep 2 in one skill. Boost skills are good candidates for Lv 4 versions.

[Water Mage]

I was initially worried about Death Blow 4, but then I remembered that there is a lot of competion for the A skill slot. Skills like Swift Sparrow, Life and Death, Distant Counter and so on. Plus Brazen skills are still better than Blow skills, since they are Dual Phase.

[Hilda]

you guys do know that Tier 4 skills might actually make Exclusiv Distant Counter weapons usefull again (depending on what Tier 4 Askills get realeased). As it stands now they either need to release refines for DC weapons or most units are better off just using a generic weapon with a standart refine and tucking in DC on the A-Slot

EDIT: actually nevermind even with Tier 4 skills DC weapons are trash without a refine lol

Edited August 21, 2018 by Hilda

[X-Naut]

I already wrote a detailed post about this on the Heroes subreddit, so I'll sum up my thoughts here: I think this treatment will be limited to skills with a cost of 200 SP or lower.

• I doubt non-numbered skills will receive an upgrade. Many of them are beefy 300 cost skills that are a one-off deal (Distant Counter, Prf skills), and the 200 cost skills (Shields) look like they've hit their ceilings. 300 SP seems to be the ceiling on passive skills.
• For those that progress from a numbered skill, such as Emblem Hones and Breath skills, they already have impressive skill compression or their own powerful perk. We might see Hone 4 and Stance 4 skills, though.
• Most 240 SP skill trees simply don't look like they can be pushed further without going into absurdity. I don't think we'll see Fighter 4 skills for sure (Bold has hit its HP% floor).
• Dual Blows/Stances and Drives are still a gray area because of their roots in a lesser skill, but if we do get Swift Sparrow 3 I'd expect a weaker buff (300 SP for +5 Atk/Spd). 

If anything, this will promote arena unit and skill diversity. You no longer have to run DC for that coveted 300 SP A skill, and as more skills get added characters without Prf skills will have access to higher scoring methods. It could also force choices between the better skill or score (Steady Breath vs Steady Stance 4, for example). There may be some clear cut answers like Death Blow 4 over Swift Sparrow on slow Brave builds but I still call it a net positive.  

[Magical Glace]

I don't like this, or at least I don't like this until units who already have DB3 have a means to refine into DB4 (basically the same answer as the Slaying weaponry).

It feels like a very bad precedent without something like that, since it's pretty direct creep that's ridiculously hard to obtain for the units whose kit is getting creeped, just as Slaying was originally (except Slaying Bow).

So basically passive refinery where IS, I refuse to like this until Effie/Hawkeye/Klein/Delthea/Elincia/Siegbert/LARoy/etc have justice.

[Ice Dragon]

I would like it if they would actually gave us the ability to farm for refining rocks. Arena medals feel like the proper currency for this.

 

As for Death Blow 4, as was previously mentioned, the main drawback of the skill is still the fact that player-phase passive A skills are highly competitive. Using Death Blow 4 means passing up on Swift Sparrow 2, Life and Death 3, or Fury 3.

On the other hand, it brings a bit of new life to Brave weapons, which have been slowly becoming less relevant with the additional bulk and offensive power that other weapons have from the weapon refinery. As a reminder, melee units built for bulk effectively gained 13 additional bulk against Brave weapons with the weapon refinery (5 from +5 HP, 8 from +4 Def), and Death Blow 4 will at least help Brave weapon users recover 4 of that lost power.

 

I hope we get another source of Death Blow 4 at some point. I'd like to +10 a Celica before I start handing the skill out, but Jakob and Alm both really want a copy.

[Diovani Bressan]

45 minutes ago, X-Naut said:

I already wrote a detailed post about this on the Heroes subreddit, so I'll sum up my thoughts here: I think this treatment will be limited to skills with a cost of 200 SP or lower.

• I doubt non-numbered skills will receive an upgrade. Many of them are beefy 300 cost skills that are a one-off deal (Distant Counter, Prf skills), and the 200 cost skills (Shields) look like they've hit their ceilings. 300 SP seems to be the ceiling on passive skills.
• For those that progress from a numbered skill, such as Emblem Hones and Breath skills, they already have impressive skill compression or their own powerful perk. We might see Hone 4 and Stance 4 skills, though.
• Most 240 SP skill trees simply don't look like they can be pushed further without going into absurdity. I don't think we'll see Fighter 4 skills for sure (Bold has hit its HP% floor).
• Dual Blows/Stances and Drives are still a gray area because of their roots in a lesser skill, but if we do get Swift Sparrow 3 I'd expect a weaker buff (300 SP for +5 Atk/Spd). 

If anything, this will promote arena unit and skill diversity. You no longer have to run DC for that coveted 300 SP A skill, and as more skills get added characters without Prf skills will have access to higher scoring methods. It could also force choices between the better skill or score (Steady Breath vs Steady Stance 4, for example). There may be some clear cut answers like Death Blow 4 over Swift Sparrow on slow Brave builds but I still call it a net positive.  

I agree with you. I don't believe we will have dual blow/stances, but drive is a possibility. Although, spur skills will probably receive a Lv 4 version before drives.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

3 hours ago, Hilda said:

you guys do know that Tier 4 skills might actually make Exclusiv Distant Counter weapons usefull again (depending on what Tier 4 Askills get realeased). As it stands now they either need to release refines for DC weapons or most units are better off just using a generic weapon with a standart refine and tucking in DC on the A-Slot

EDIT: actually nevermind even with Tier 4 skills DC weapons are trash without a refine lol

I'm thinking there's potential as more get released. Since Tier 4 skills have 300SP costs and these units pack on DC just for the higher arena score. Now they can get that higher arena score with an actual ability.

[Hilda]

1 hour ago, Glennstavos said:

I'm thinking there's potential as more get released. Since Tier 4 skills have 300SP costs and these units pack on DC just for the higher arena score. Now they can get that higher arena score with an actual ability.

yes but death blow 3 doesnt equal like 5 HP 3 SPD +10 Special dmg and -2 atk.... I mean lets be real DC weapons are just trash at the moment without any kind of refine. Sure they can run Steady Breath on the A-Slot (IF they are infantry or armored units) and still counter which is a good combo but outside of that its really just... trash.

[Ice Dragon]

24 minutes ago, Hilda said:

yes but death blow 3 doesnt equal like 5 HP 3 SPD +10 Special dmg and -2 atk.... I mean lets be real DC weapons are just trash at the moment without any kind of refine. Sure they can run Steady Breath on the A-Slot (IF they are infantry or armored units) and still counter which is a good combo but outside of that its really just... trash.

Steady Breath is literally the combo to use with a Distant Counter weapon. "Outside of that" being "trash" is irrelevant.

The worth of a build is how strong that build is, and the worth of a skill is how strong builds using that skill is. The number and quality of less optimal builds is irrelevant.

[D-I-S-C-O]

1 hour ago, Hilda said:

yes but death blow 3 doesnt equal like 5 HP 3 SPD +10 Special dmg and -2 atk.... I mean lets be real DC weapons are just trash at the moment without any kind of refine. Sure they can run Steady Breath on the A-Slot (IF they are infantry or armored units) and still counter which is a good combo but outside of that its really just... trash.

Distant counter weapons are primarily the reason why magic has been less effective in the current meta. Most magic users host weak defence, and with dragons and armors likely attacking defence, they get easily one shot. Add steady breath to the mix (a skill magic units can't get) and they aren't that useful, save for Mr. Magiciseverything.

[Hilda]

50 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Steady Breath is literally the combo to use with a Distant Counter weapon. "Outside of that" being "trash" is irrelevant.

The worth of a build is how strong that build is, and the worth of a skill is how strong builds using that skill is. The number and quality of less optimal builds is irrelevant.

which shoehorns all the infantry DC weapon users into enemy phase units even though they might not even have the perfect stat spread for it (hello Ryoma).

DC Armored users like Zelgius/Grima/Hardin get away with it because they can run the bold fighter - QR wombo combo and lots of higher BST which turns them into a mixed phase unit.

Lets be real the DC Weapon users that are Infantry need an upgrade/refine
DC Weapon users that are on horses are definitly in need of an upgrade/refine (or when is the last time you saw a Xander or Camus in Arena? merges aside). I mean the last time i used a DC weapon users was last year i think.... I dont run Armorers so I never play Zelgius Grima etc. and I dont run Dragons. And the other normal DC weapon users are just weak sauce with their personal weapon to be frank.

@D-I-S-C-O While this is somewhat true, it has more to do with the fact that the current Meta in Arena frankly doesnt leave much room open for good scores if you run a ranged unit. The problem was not the horse DC weapon users or the infantry DC weapon users. Magic users could compete very well back then, the problem was the Inflated Armorers/Dragon refine DC weapon users that could run stuff like bold/vengefull fighter and not give a fuck what the opposing mage was unless that mage was a counter color running Triangle adept.

The First big mistake they made was to allow Steady breath to be used by Dragonstone users and Armorers
The 2. big mistake was the Dragonstone refine on Lightning Breath... the refine is ok for all the other breaths, but it definitly was over the top for Lightning Breath, which gave magic, hell any ranged user the final nail in the coffin and shut down like 90% of any creative built on ranged units.

[XRay]

20 minutes ago, Hilda said:

which shoehorns all the infantry DC weapon users into enemy phase units even though they might not even have the perfect stat spread for it (hello Ryoma).

Ryoma is fine as a Spd tank. As long as he does not die in one hit or have his Spd neutralized by Bold Fighter or Brave Lance, Ryoma is a solid Spd tank.

24 minutes ago, Hilda said:

it has more to do with the fact that the current Meta in Arena frankly doesnt leave much room open for good scores if you run a ranged unit.

That is easily fixed by removing BST as a factor in determining score. Restricting skill inheritance and Refinements is not necessary in my opinion.

1 hour ago, D-I-S-C-O said:

Distant counter weapons are primarily the reason why magic has been less effective in the current meta. Most magic users host weak defence, and with dragons and armors likely attacking defence, they get easily one shot. Add steady breath to the mix (a skill magic units can't get) and they aren't that useful, save for Mr. Magiciseverything.

Mages are still viable in Player Phase teams with a Firesweep Bow. Not everyone runs Distant Counter, so those that do not run it can be quickly killed by the mage so the Firesweep archer can focus on those that do instead.

[Ice Dragon]

43 minutes ago, Hilda said:

which shoehorns all the infantry DC weapon users into enemy phase units even though they might not even have the perfect stat spread for it (hello Ryoma).

No, it shoehorns all of the infantry Distant Counter weapon users into enemy-phase units only if the player chooses to build around that weapon. Nothing is forcing them to keep their original weapon, but nothing is forcing them to change it. If you have both options and they are both comparably viable, more power to you to be able to build more towards your own play style or team composition.

 

There's nothing wrong with Ryoma's stat spread. Compared to Legendary Ike, he has more Spd and less Def and is otherwise pretty much the same. Ryoma has enough Spd to block most natural doubles and enough Def to get by with taking only a single hit. Ike bulks out on Def to mitigate damage, but is more vulnerable to Special skill damage and magic damage due to being slower.

Original Ike is the problematic one with not enough Def or Res to reach Legendary Ike's bulk while having the same low Spd.

Edited August 21, 2018 by Ice Dragon

[Hilda]

52 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

No, it shoehorns all of the infantry Distant Counter weapon users into enemy-phase units only if the player chooses to build around that weapon. Nothing is forcing them to keep their original weapon, but nothing is forcing them to change it. If you have both options and they are both comparably viable, more power to you to be able to build more towards your own play style or team composition.

 

There's nothing wrong with Ryoma's stat spread. Compared to Legendary Ike, he has more Spd and less Def and is otherwise pretty much the same. Ryoma has enough Spd to block most natural doubles and enough Def to get by with taking only a single hit. Ike bulks out on Def to mitigate damage, but is more vulnerable to Special skill damage and magic damage due to being slower.

Original Ike is the problematic one with not enough Def or Res to reach Legendary Ike's bulk while having the same low Spd.

last i checked 42 SPD @+10 merge is pretty laughable at best in the world of 50+ SPD melees and mages... so no Ryoma doesnt fit the criteria anymore of a SPD tank with his Raijinto.

I am one that actually likes to keep original weapons on the character instead of giving them something totally different. The fact is still there DC Weapon users that are Infantry/Flying/Horsies plain need an upgrade to their weapon to actually matter in the meta. I mean just look at Female Grima... DC weapon even with the ability to target the weaker stat, yet she better runs of Lightning Breath refined...  what does that tell you?

[XRay]

5 minutes ago, Hilda said:

last i checked 42 SPD @+10 merge is pretty laughable at best in the world of 50+ SPD melees and mages... so no Ryoma doesnt fit the criteria anymore of a SPD tank with his Raijinto.

That is 48-50 Spd depending on the A slot plus Speed +3 Sacred Seal. I guess he can reach 51 Spd with Darting Stance, but that gimps his Atk in my opinion. He cannot prevent Ishtar from doubling who can reach 56 Spd, but he should be able to prevent doubling from Celica 53 Spd and SA!Tana 54 Spd. As for sword units, Ryoma cannot handle Ayra, AOTB!Celica, Karla, or Mia with Raijinto, but depending on your score range, they might run Distant Counter and/or Flashing Blade, which makes them a lot more manageable.

[Ice Dragon]

53 minutes ago, Hilda said:

last i checked 42 SPD @+10 merge is pretty laughable at best in the world of 50+ SPD melees and mages... so no Ryoma doesnt fit the criteria anymore of a SPD tank with his Raijinto.

That world of 50-Spd units is almost exclusively swords and blue tomes. Blue tomes he obviously has no need to deal with, and swords can either be ignored or handled with Swordbreaker, which is a viable coverage option for him.

 

1 hour ago, Hilda said:

DC weapon even with the ability to target the weaker stat, yet she better runs of Lightning Breath refined...  what does that tell you?

That tells me you should actually prove to me that Lightning Breath is superior to Expiration because I don't believe you.

 

22 minutes ago, XRay said:

He cannot prevent Ishtar from doubling who can reach 56 Spd,

Which doesn't actually matter because he simply dies on the first hit.

[D-I-S-C-O]

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

That tells me you should actually prove to me that Lightning Breath is superior to Expiration because I don't believe you.

I think the reason why people are likely to use Lightning Breath over Expiration is because Lightning Breath can be forged for things like +3 Spd or +4 Def while the only thing that makes Expiration better is just having 4 more might. That might isn't really a big deal when most high res units are ranged, so instead you target defence for bigger damage, and 4 damage isn't much compared to having better bulk or being faster. That's just me though.

[Ice Dragon]

1 minute ago, D-I-S-C-O said:

I think the reason why people are likely to use Lightning Breath over Expiration is because Lightning Breath can be forged for things like +3 Spd or +4 Def while the only thing that makes Expiration better is just having 4 more might. That might isn't really a big deal when most high res units are ranged, so instead you target defence for bigger damage, and 4 damage isn't much compared to having better bulk or being faster. That's just me though.

Lightning Breath increases your Special cooldown by 1, and that's the real kicker.

Refined Lightning Breath+ would be better than Expiration if it weren't for the slowed Special activation, but the loss of 4 Atk on top of losing a first-round Special hurts when you're a colorless unit that won't be expecting to fight more than once or twice without healing support.

[Arcphoenix]

This banner really gave me mixed feelings about the future. Especially in how F2P'ers are supposed to keep up with whales. Any and all DB3 sets just became obsolete.

There's also Veronica's healing special. It's also inheritable and powercreeps every balm in the game.

As for Maltet, I'm really, really hoping Vanilla Armads gets a refine

Edited August 22, 2018 by Arcphoenix

[Zeo]

7 minutes ago, Arcphoenix said:

This banner really gave me mixed feelings about the future. Especially in how F2P'ers are supposed to keep up with whales. Any and all DB3 sets just became obsolete.

There's also Veronica's healing special. It's also inheritable and powercreeps every balm in the game

I'm with you on DB3, but considering Balm skills are trash and Healers generally run Miracle or Heavenly Light, I think Balm creep was exactly what they needed.

Edited August 22, 2018 by Zeo

[Ice Dragon]

9 minutes ago, Arcphoenix said:

Any and all DB3 sets just became obsolete.

The existence of Death Blow 4 doesn't somehow make Death Blow 3 any less strong than it already is.

[XRay]

10 minutes ago, Arcphoenix said:

Especially in how F2P'ers are supposed to keep up with whales. Any and all DB3 sets just became obsolete.

I do not see how that makes Death Blow 3 builds obsolete. If anything, Death Blow 4 only enhances those builds. The game even gives you one Death Blow 4 for free.