California mass Shooting

[Jotari]

Looks like we're back to a weekly basis for this shit.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/us/california-mass-shooting-gunman-kills-12-people-in-bar-1.3690667?localLinksEnabled=false&utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_content=California+mass+shooting%3A+gunman+kills+12+people+in+bar&utm_campaign=lunchtime_latest_digest

[redlight]

And here I thought South Park isn't real. Sigh.

Rest in peace. I hope this doesn't happen again, but it probably will. I hope people get mental help when they need it

Edited November 8, 2018 by silveraura25

[Sunsurge]

2 hours ago, silveraura25 said:

And here I thought South Park isn't real. Sigh.

Rest in peace. I hope this doesn't happen again, but it probably will. I hope people get mental help when they need it

I don't think mental health is the issue in these cases, let's think about that for a moment. Mentally ill people are usually not the ones picking up guns and doing mass shootings.

[redlight]

5 minutes ago, Sunsurge said:

I don't think mental health is the issue in these cases, let's think about that for a moment. Mentally ill people are usually not the ones picking up guns and doing mass shootings.

Mental help as in having someone to talk about your problems with. Be it with a psychiatrist or something. School shooters are are usually social outcasts and/or bully victims. Even sometimes abused at home.

Edited November 8, 2018 by silveraura25

[Ottservia]

5 minutes ago, Sunsurge said:

I don't think mental health is the issue in these cases, let's think about that for a moment. Mentally ill people are usually not the ones picking up guns and doing mass shootings.

I mean I don’t necessarily disagree with you here(especially in this case) mental health is indeed a factor cause stuff like depression can lead people to do things they otherwise wouldn’t. Now in this case I feel the lack of tighter gun control/regulation is the biggest contributor as to why this happened though With what little info we have it’s kind of hard to tell.

[Res]

Other countries have similarly high levels of mental ill health in their populations, yet don’t see the mass shootings that the US does.

There are also millions of people in the US with mental illnesses who would never dream of shooting anything and the immediate jump to blaming mental illness only further stigmatizes those people and makes it harder to seek help.

The only regular correlation with mass shootings is a history of domestic violence. 

[Sunsurge]

18 minutes ago, silveraura25 said:

Mental help as in having someone to talk about your problems with. Be it with a psychiatrist or something. School shooters are are usually social outcasts and/or bully victims. Even sometimes abused at home.

That's exactly the issue. We immediately want to absolve blame by saying they were "bullied" or "social outcasts". But there are in actuality very few people who have NOT been bullied to some degree growing up. And a lot of school shooters can be described as shy, but not necessarily social outcasts.

Go down the list of school shooters. The two at Columbine were described as "bullies" but it was later revealed one had a good friend circle and the other had just taken a date to prom. Neither were even close to the social outcasts they were originally portrayed as.

Look at Cruz, who was known to be very aggressive himself and picked fights. Was he "bullied" or was he actually doing the bullying and getting bullied in return.

It's been proven time and time again, the initial media reports and 'profiling' on school shooters are wholly reactionary and not really painting a full picture. Some are social outcasts, because they were known to already be sadistic and violent. So no, I don't think you can say that without having done a bit more research on the social and psychological profiles of these shooters, a lot of which isn't covered unless you dig a bit deeper.

How about the school shooter who shot up a class because he was turned down by a girl? Where is the bullying in that? 

Abuse is the only thing that has a certified effect on violence on this scale. 

[Jotari]

Just to be clear, this recent shooting wasn't a school shooting. It was in a college bar and the shooter was an adult. 13 confirmed dead.

Edited November 8, 2018 by Jotari

[Raven]

And we're back. Just another statistic.

Thoughts and prayers, etc.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

7 hours ago, Raven said:

And we're back. Just another statistic.

Thoughts and prayers, etc.

Yep and the only "consolation" being that the murder weapon was a Glock instead of the usual AR-15 so he would've killed plenty more with that.

That's just America for ya, unwilling to make gun laws to make the country safe for its people and always looking to blame something when the problem is simply how easy it is to get guns.

For example, I work in the same building as Retro Studios, if I will it, I could buy a gun and kill off most of Retro Studios and there'd be little happening to stop me.

Oh shit, apparently people at a shooting have just been doing it wrong

Edited November 9, 2018 by Dr. Tarrasque

[Jotari]

6 hours ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

Yep and the only "consolation" being that the murder weapon was a Glock instead of the usual AR-15 so he would've killed plenty more with that.

That's just America for ya, unwilling to make gun laws to make the country safe for its people and always looking to blame something when the problem is simply how easy it is to get guns.

For example, I work in the same building as Retro Studios, if I will it, I could buy a gun and kill off most of Retro Studios and there'd be little happening to stop me.

Oh shit, apparently people at a shooting have just been doing it wrong

Well obviously if you don't run straight towards someone shooting people indiscriminately, then you deserve to die./sarcasm.

Retro Studios, like the game studios?  That's pretty cool. If you were to start shooting you'd have to dress up as Samus though.

[Slumber]

11 hours ago, Sunsurge said:

I don't think mental health is the issue in these cases, let's think about that for a moment. Mentally ill people are usually not the ones picking up guns and doing mass shootings.

This was a soldier who was recommended treatment after displaying signs of PTSD, but was cleared after a quick examination.

This is something that was absolutely preventable if mental healthcare was taken more seriously.

Edited November 9, 2018 by Slumber

[Dr. Tarrasque]

17 hours ago, Jotari said:

Well obviously if you don't run straight towards someone shooting people indiscriminately, then you deserve to die./sarcasm.

Retro Studios, like the game studios?  That's pretty cool. If you were to start shooting you'd have to dress up as Samus though.

Yes, the Retro Studios that made Metroid Prime and the newer Donkey Kong Country games. I've looked into it and I could pick up an assault rifle and ammunition for it with as little as $300.

That coupled with a loophole that allows you to buy guns without a background check in Texas (I'm serious, look it up), the wording of the "stand your ground" and the current gun laws in general, there are states where it's easily possible to commit mass murder with guns or even manipulate the situation into killing individuals LEGALLY.

I get the intent of the 2nd amendment, but getting a gun in the first place needs to be made way more difficult at the very least.

Edited November 9, 2018 by Dr. Tarrasque

[Sunsurge]

17 hours ago, Slumber said:

This was a soldier who was recommended treatment after displaying signs of PTSD, but was cleared after a quick examination.

This is something that was absolutely preventable if mental healthcare was taken more seriously.

Yes, I'm sure being treated for PTSD would have totally cleared him and made him a great person in society. -_- What made this preventable would have been gun control laws and more thorough examinations. 

I agree mental healthcare needs to be taken seriously, but focusing on that completely ignores the fact he was allowed to get a gun in the first place. AND it also ignores the many mass shooters who don't show any signs of mental health issues. So we can pick apart each individual shooter as it happens, but the overlying issue is gun control. Not mental health.

[Raven]

43 minutes ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

Yes, the Retro Studios that made Metroid Prime and the newer Donkey Kong Country games. I've looked into it and I could pick up an assault rifle and ammunition for it with as little as $300.

That coupled with a loophole that allows you to buy guns without a background check in Texas (I'm serious, look it up), the wording of the "stand your ground" and the current gun laws in general, there are states where it's easily possible to commit mass murder with guns or even manipulate the situation into killing individuals LEGALLY.

I get the intent of the 2nd amendment, but getting a gun in the first place needs to be made way more difficult at the very least.

lol, your fucking country. god damn

[Slumber]

19 minutes ago, Sunsurge said:

Yes, I'm sure being treated for PTSD would have totally cleared him and made him a great person in society. -_- What made this preventable would have been gun control laws and more thorough examinations. 

I agree mental healthcare needs to be taken seriously, but focusing on that completely ignores the fact he was allowed to get a gun in the first place. AND it also ignores the many mass shooters who don't show any signs of mental health issues. So we can pick apart each individual shooter as it happens, but the overlying issue is gun control. Not mental health.

I'm not saying mental health is the ONLY issue here. Obviously we need sensible gun control. 

But actual treatment would have likely prevented this. PTSD isn't a joke, and therapy exists for a reason. 

And I'm not actually sure stricter gun control would have stopped this. This wasn't some random angtsy teen that got a hold of his dad's rifle, or a crazy dude who walked into a Cabella's to arm himself. This was a marine vet. Veterans are a group of people who get carte blanche when it comes to gun ownership in quite a few parts of the world, including places even with sensible gun laws. Just about the only people who basically aren't given a free pass are people who are dishonorably discharged. 

Even if it wasn't the case that vets just have guns, good luck trying to stop them from getting one. I don't even think the dems would dare restrict access of guns to vets in America. It'd just be too taboo, and it'd make them big targets for these kinds of politics. "THE DEMS DON'T WANT THE PEOPLE WHO PROTECT THIS COUNTRY TO HAVE GUNS RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE" 

You can argue for stricter gun control all you want, but this case is perhaps the textbook argument for mental health treatment as preventative care for violent incidents, simply because of how impractical gun control is in this one case.

Edited November 9, 2018 by Slumber

[Jotari]

13 hours ago, Slumber said:

I'm not saying mental health is the ONLY issue here. Obviously we need sensible gun control. 

But actual treatment would have likely prevented this. PTSD isn't a joke, and therapy exists for a reason. 

And I'm not actually sure stricter gun control would have stopped this. This wasn't some random angtsy teen that got a hold of his dad's rifle, or a crazy dude who walked into a Cabella's to arm himself. This was a marine vet. Veterans are a group of people who get carte blanche when it comes to gun ownership in quite a few parts of the world, including places even with sensible gun laws. Just about the only people who basically aren't given a free pass are people who are dishonorably discharged. 

Even if it wasn't the case that vets just have guns, good luck trying to stop them from getting one. I don't even think the dems would dare restrict access of guns to vets in America. It'd just be too taboo, and it'd make them big targets for these kinds of politics. "THE DEMS DON'T WANT THE PEOPLE WHO PROTECT THIS COUNTRY TO HAVE GUNS RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE" 

You can argue for stricter gun control all you want, but this case is perhaps the textbook argument for mental health treatment as preventative care for violent incidents, simply because of how impractical gun control is in this one case.

I'd argue that a vet with a literal diagnosis of mental instability shouldn't have a gun, in any country in the world. I'm not psychologist, but I reckon them having and regularly shooting a gun probably isn't great for their PTSD either. Sounds like it'd keep their mind in a battlefield state when the whole point is to leave that kind of place (although once again, I'm far from a psychologist, so maybe I'm completely wrong about that).

Edited November 10, 2018 by Jotari

[Slumber]

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

I'd argue that a vet with a literal diagnosis of mental instability shouldn't have a gun, in any country in the world. I'm not psychologist, but I reckon them having and regularly shooting a gun probably isn't great for their PTSD either. Sounds like it'd keep their mind in a battlefield state when the whole point is to leave that kind of place (although once again, I'm far from a psychologist, so maybe I'm completely wrong about that).

You're probably right on the money.

But again, this guy wasn't officially diagnosed with PTSD. He was recommended treatment because he was showing signs, and then it was basically brushed off and he was cleared. Which is why I think this is a case of mental health needing to be treated more seriously.

[eclipse]

On 11/9/2018 at 12:10 PM, Sunsurge said:

Yes, I'm sure being treated for PTSD would have totally cleared him and made him a great person in society. -_- What made this preventable would have been gun control laws and more thorough examinations. 

I agree mental healthcare needs to be taken seriously, but focusing on that completely ignores the fact he was allowed to get a gun in the first place. AND it also ignores the many mass shooters who don't show any signs of mental health issues. So we can pick apart each individual shooter as it happens, but the overlying issue is gun control. Not mental health.

Enough with this reactionary nonsense.

Either say your piece, or get out.  And I don't care which option you choose.

[CapnStix]

Controlling guns won't stop...uhhh...mentally unsound people from doing bad things, so only the law abiding citizenry will suffer. Seems like more guns equals less gun violence, strangely enough. Australian lawmakers banned guns, iirc, but gun crime didn't change compared to before the gun ban.

Really though, the shooter, just like the anti-Semite who tragically took lives recently, needs/needed a psychological evaluation. S/He needed some serious help. It's unfortunate that this even happened. I'm so used to hearing "school shooting" that I stopped being surprised. That's terrifying. We live in a country where no one gets help and then they take lives, be it others or their own. That's unacceptable. These otherwise decent lads and lasses do horrible things because I dunno. It shouldn't happen in the first place.

I'm against super "how're you feeling" weekly, but in cases, like this, it is entirely justified to necessitate these kinda tactics. I was bullied as a kid, it sucks...but so was everyone. All the people I grew up with turned out fine. Just saying there's a very fine line between bullying and pushing someone into doing bad things. Clearly, and unfortunately, this person resorted to such extreme measures.

[Tetragrammaton]

1 hour ago, CapnStix said:

Controlling guns won't stop...uhhh...mentally unsound people from doing bad things, so only the law abiding citizenry will suffer. Seems like more guns equals less gun violence, strangely enough. Australian lawmakers banned guns, iirc, but gun crime didn't change compared to before the gun ban.

Really though, the shooter, just like the anti-Semite who tragically took lives recently, needs/needed a psychological evaluation. S/He needed some serious help. It's unfortunate that this even happened. I'm so used to hearing "school shooting" that I stopped being surprised. That's terrifying. We live in a country where no one gets help and then they take lives, be it others or their own. That's unacceptable. These otherwise decent lads and lasses do horrible things because I dunno. It shouldn't happen in the first place.

I'm against super "how're you feeling" weekly, but in cases, like this, it is entirely justified to necessitate these kinda tactics. I was bullied as a kid, it sucks...but so was everyone. All the people I grew up with turned out fine. Just saying there's a very fine line between bullying and pushing someone into doing bad things. Clearly, and unfortunately, this person resorted to such extreme measures.

Guns banned law can stop high school students shooting at other kids.

[CapnStix]

That won't stop all the gun violence crimed, though. Tell me something. If a person had a gun, and pointed it at you, and you had a gun, would you want to fire it? I mean, it's a person, another human being. Not the same as shooting a dog. Sure, shooting a dog would be a sad day, but that isn't a human life. Not the same.

So, would you pull the trigger, and kill him?

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, CapnStix said:

Controlling guns won't stop...uhhh...mentally unsound people from doing bad things, so only the law abiding citizenry will suffer. Seems like more guns equals less gun violence, strangely enough. Australian lawmakers banned guns, iirc, but gun crime didn't change compared to before the gun ban.

Really though, the shooter, just like the anti-Semite who tragically took lives recently, needs/needed a psychological evaluation. S/He needed some serious help. It's unfortunate that this even happened. I'm so used to hearing "school shooting" that I stopped being surprised. That's terrifying. We live in a country where no one gets help and then they take lives, be it others or their own. That's unacceptable. These otherwise decent lads and lasses do horrible things because I dunno. It shouldn't happen in the first place.

I'm against super "how're you feeling" weekly, but in cases, like this, it is entirely justified to necessitate these kinda tactics. I was bullied as a kid, it sucks...but so was everyone. All the people I grew up with turned out fine. Just saying there's a very fine line between bullying and pushing someone into doing bad things. Clearly, and unfortunately, this person resorted to such extreme measures.

No, it did change. Gun crime has decreased in Australia by over 50% and homicides in general are at their lowest. There were 13 instances of mass shootings in the twenty years leading up to the Port Arthur massacre, and in the twenty years since there hasn't been a single one.

https://www.factcheck.org/2017/10/gun-control-australia-updated/

It also, at least briefly, reduced the total suicide rate (suicide being the leading cause of gun deaths by quite a large margin in most developed countries)

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/ProductsbyReleaseDate/C3374C4F71C1583ACA25729D0010CF4A?OpenDocument

Although I can't find any more up to date statistics than 2006 with a cursory search and recent news articles say they have increased this year. It's possible they're still lower than 1996 levels, but it's hard to tell, suicide is kind of becoming an epidemic. Still, a clear decrease immediately after stricter gun laws were put into place is evident. Never underestimate human laziness. Stricter gun controls won't make it impossible for someone to kill themselves or commit a massacre, but the harder it is the less likely they'll go through with it.

Edited November 13, 2018 by Jotari

[CapnStix]

Funny how it was decreasing way before 96. The gun ban can't take responsibility for homicide. Which means guns aren't the problem.

[Tetragrammaton]

2 minutes ago, CapnStix said:

Funny how it was decreasing way before 96. The gun ban can't take responsibility for homicide. Which means guns aren't the problem.

But less guns means less innocent victims, who just happens to be in the right place at the right time.