FE4 Fan Special Roundtable/Interview Translation

[Jotari]

7 minutes ago, Slumber said:

I was firmly on the "Sigurd would be the worst bodyguard because his idealism and naivete got all of his friends killed" side.

Everyone else was on the "There's no way that situation could have worked out differently, you're being too harsh on Sigurd!" side.

It turned into a long argument.

It's turned into a long argument here too. Maybe you can help Omega out, what do you think Sigurd could have done differently to avoid his fate? Getting another perspective should be fresh.

Edited February 22, 2019 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

8 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Yes, that's what we know (or can assume). But the characters in universe don't know how illicit in the sheets Kurth was. All they know is that he had one affair and that means it's possible he could have another. I actually mention this in my Bloom fanfic (two plugs in one day, I need it, no one seems to be interested, I guess because Bloom is one of the least popular characters in the series) where they speculate that Deirdre could be one of Bloom's cousins (and in doing so show the exact moment where Alvis suddenly realises it in secret).

Well, after Cygun, chances of Kurth being involved in another affair are almost zilch. Or just loving someone else at all. Otherwise Kurth wouldn't still be single at his likely mid 40's and with no heir, despite being the Crown Prince. It's true we know nothing before Cygun, though again, chances are he would've had a simple lover, and not one that would involve him into an affair. As we know with Cygun and how that sent him into staying single for almost twenty years after the fact and counting, if he already loved someone before her, he wouldn't have gotten into an affair with her. Thus, it's more likely to think Cygun was the only woman he ever loved.

Edited February 22, 2019 by Acacia Sgt

[Slumber]

8 minutes ago, Jotari said:

It's turned into a long argument here too. Maybe you can help Omega out, what do you think Sigurd could have done differently to avoid his fate? Getting another perspective should be fresh.

I could go dig up some old comments, but a lot of what Sigurd did just fed into the flames that Reptor and Langobalt were fanning.

A few of these things would be:

• Not invading Verdane when they provoked him and kidnapped Edain
• Not leaving Silesse in order to go fight Langobalt when they were offered refuge
• Not trusting Arvis and Aida when their whole appeal to him at the end of the war was sketch as all hell

The first one I can kind of forgive him for, since Verdane is obviously an issue and it'd be tough to root for a hero who goes "My friend has been kidnapped? Eh, fuck 'er."

The other two were pretty egregious.

Edited February 22, 2019 by Slumber

[Acacia Sgt]

Ah yes, I remember that.

Might as well link the thread, from the beginning.

[Jotari]

14 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Well, after Cygun, chances of Kurth being involved in another affair are almost zilch. Or just loving someone else at all. Otherwise Kurth wouldn't still be single at his likely mid 40's and with no heir, despite being the Crown Prince. It's true we know nothing before Cygun, though again, chances are he would've had a simple lover, and not one that would involve him into an affair. As we know with Cygun, if he already loved someone before her, he wouldn't have gotten into an affair with her. Thus, it's more likely to think Cygun was the only woman he ever loved.

Actually we do have a Kaga comment saying Alvis didn't know Kurth had an affair with his mother.

Q: Did Alvis know that Diadora was his half-sister?

A: Not in the beginning. Within the palace, there were few people who could tell him about Prince Kurth and Cigyun’s relationship, and he was only 7 years old when his father committed suicide, so he would likely have been uninterested in the palace gossip that was occurring during that time. Afterwards, his beloved mother Cigyun disappeared, but because of his powerful trust in his mother he wasn’t disturbed by the rumours. Alvis always held the belief that his mother would return for him.

So it was pretty public gossip, but Alvis wasn't interested in gossip and given that he outright murdered people talked referenced it, no one was really stepping in line to inform him it was the prince. Still, a bunch of other people in country who weren't Alvis should have been able to put 2 and 2 together.

I agree that Kurth probably never had any other affairs, but the thing is, no one in universe can be sure. The fact that he even had one was pretty shocking. For all they know, Deirdre could be the daughter of a prostitute.

13 minutes ago, Slumber said:

I could go dig up some old comments, but a lot of what Sigurd did just fed into the flames that Reptor and Langobalt were fanning.

A few of these things would be:

• Not invading Verdane when they provoked him and kidnapped Edain
• Not leaving Silesse in order to go fight Langobalt when they were offered refuge
• Not trusting Arvis and Aida when their whole appeal to him at the end of the war was sketch as all hell

*Not invading Verdane wouldn't have dismantled the conspiracy in place. His father still would have been betrayed, Deirdre and Alvis still would have been married, and another Galle would still have been born. If Reptor didn't want to go for his head too and Sigurd took his father's death lying down, he could have survive, but he would have ended up in the same position as Brian, ie, someone who fights for the empire with no knowledge of what they're actually fighting for. He also had the full backing of Grannvale and no reason not to invade Verdane other than cowardice or pacifism (I personally would be in the pacifist camp, but I wouldn't really hold it against someone else who's fighting to stop their friend getting raped). On the specific subject of a bodyguard, someone who's not willing to ride to your aid would make for a rather shitty protector.

*Omega never brought this up and I actually don't really have any counter argument. I suppose, yeah, he might have been able to live out the rest of his days in Silesse. He wanted to leave to stop trouble coming to Queen Ranha by going on the offensive, and it's possible in their bid to conquer the entire continent they could have conquered Sileese (which I think they actually did in the main timeline, it's left ambiguous. Sileese still have their royal family, but they talk of rebellion happening there), but he might have been able to take the northern most castle and just huddle up with a never ending defensive rebellion there using the harsh terrain. Not exactly avoiding tragedy though. Best option all things considered at least.

*He received no word from Claud magic vision that Alvis was conspiring against him (poor show Blaggi, all of it is your fault) and earlier from Filat that Alvis was a neutral force. Alvis had just helped him fight Reptor.  What were his options really once Reptor had been dealt with? To never return to Grannvale again? Or to attack Aia hen she showed no hostility. It would have been odd behaviour to say the least to suddenly say "Nah" and turn around back into the desert, or to suddenly attack unprovoked.

Edited February 22, 2019 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

9 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Actually we do have a Kaga comment saying Alvis didn't know Kurth had an affair with his mother.

Q: Did Alvis know that Diadora was his half-sister?

A: Not in the beginning. Within the palace, there were few people who could tell him about Prince Kurth and Cigyun’s relationship, and he was only 7 years old when his father committed suicide, so he would likely have been uninterested in the palace gossip that was occurring during that time. Afterwards, his beloved mother Cigyun disappeared, but because of his powerful trust in his mother he wasn’t disturbed by the rumours. Alvis always held the belief that his mother would return for him.

So it was pretty public gossip, but Alvis wasn't interested in gossip and given that he outright murdered people talked referenced it, no one was really stepping in line to inform him it was the prince. Still, a bunch of other people in country who weren't Alvis should have been able to put 2 and 2 together.

I agree that Kurth probably never had any other affairs, but the thing is, no one in universe can be sure. The fact that he even had one was pretty shocking. For all they know, Deirdre could be the daughter of a prostitute.

The way that's worded, it sounds Arvis was aware, he just choose to not believe it, if the "wasn't disturbed" is an indication. That can help the case that he probably forgot or still felt they weren't true, however. Perhaps.

9 minutes ago, Jotari said:

*Omega never brought this up and I actually don't really have any counter argument. I suppose, yeah, he might have been able to live out the rest of his days in Silesse. He wanted to leave to stop trouble coming to Queen Ranha by going on the offensive, and it's possible in their bid to conquer the entire continent they could have conquered Sileese (which I think they actually did in the main timeline, it's left ambiguous. Sileese still have their royal family, but they talk of rebellion happening there), but he might have been able to take the northern most castle and just huddle up with a never ending defensive rebellion there using the harsh terrain. Not exactly avoiding tragedy though. Best option all things considered at least.

They did. As Chapter 6's opening narration shows:

After overthrowing the two opposing kingdoms, Silesia and Lenster, Lord Alvis unified the continent.

Also, here's my take about Sigurd staying in Silesse, from the bodyguard thread:

On 23/12/2018 at 12:24 AM, Acacia Sgt said:

At that point, it mattered little if Sigurd stayed in Silesse or not. Arvis would've still backstabbed Lombard and Reptor. If Sigurd stays put, once Slayder, Andrei, and Lombard fall, if Sigurd still stays put, then Arvis would tell Reptor to march, then he's the one ambushed in the desert. The forces in Phinora are Velthomer's, so once Arvis gives the word, BAM, Reptor is toast. Then it's just a matter of sending a messenger to Sigurd saying that the "truth" has been uncovered with Lombard and Reptor's deads, and he's welcome to come back to Grannvale. This would bait Sigurd to come anyway. Again, he has little reason to suspect there's more to the conspiracy than just Lombard and Reptor. Perhaps marching towards Grannvale isn't an upside, but it wasn't a downside either. Besides, he only traversed the desert's edge, not through it like what Quan planned to do.

 

[Slumber]

12 minutes ago, Jotari said:

*He received no word from Claud magic vision that Alvis was conspiring against him (poor show Blaggi, all of it is your fault) and earlier from Filat that Alvis was a neutral force. Alvis had just helped him fight Reptor. It would have been odd behaviour to say the least to suddenly say "Nah" and turn around back into the desert, or to suddenly attack Alvis unprovoked.

This is something I addressed repeatedly in the other thread, but Claud DOES warn Sigurd that Arvis probably isn't on Sigurd's side. While it is a purposefully ambiguous statement, it is dropped in a conversation about the resulting fallout of the conspiracy against his father.

And he only helped Sigurd fight Reptor on a technicality. Aida and the Velthomer army spent the majority of that final conflict on the sidelines, directly watching over the fight and doing nothing. Which becomes more suspect when Sigurd is repeatedly told that Arvis and Velthomer are neutral entities in this conflict.

Keep in mind that they sat there and watched as Sigurd's father, sister and brother-in-law were killed within spitting of Belhalla.

Which then becomes MORE suspect when Aida then turns on Reptor in the final moments of the fight, and then proceeds to shower Sigurd with accolades, that they knew he was innocent all along and tells him that Arvis has planned a giant celebration planned at Belhalla. Remember, the entirety of the continent besides Silesse thought Sigurd and his father were causing all of the current conflict in Jugdral.

Sigurd has little reason to trust them, and they were an entirely neutral force until it was clear which way the conflict was going.

Edited February 22, 2019 by Slumber

[Jotari]

11 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

The way that's worded, it sounds Arvis was aware, he just choose to not believe it, if the "wasn't disturbed" is an indication. That can help the case that he probably forgot or still felt they weren't true, however. Perhaps.

They did. As Chapter 6's opening narration shows:

After overthrowing the two opposing kingdoms, Silesia and Lenster, Lord Alvis unified the continent.

Also, here's my take about Sigurd staying in Silesse, from the bodyguard thread:

 

Yeah, but there's still references to Fury being Queen in Thracia 776. So I gather that Sileese got invaded, but were able to keep more of their independence compared to Isaach and Leinster.

9 minutes ago, Slumber said:

This is something I addressed repeatedly in the other thread, but Claud DOES warn Sigurd that Arvis probably isn't on Sigurd's side. While it is a purposefully ambiguous statement, it is dropped in a conversation about the resulting fallout of the conspiracy against his father.

And he only helped Sigurd fight Reptor on a technicality. Aida and the Velthomer army spent the majority of that final conflict on the sidelines, directly watching over the fight and doing nothing. Which becomes more suspect when Sigurd is repeatedly told that Arvis and Velthomer are neutral entities in this conflict.

Keep in mind that they sat there and watched as Sigurd's father, sister and brother-in-law were killed within spitting of Belhalla.

Which then becomes MORE suspect when Aida then turns on Reptor in the final moments of the fight, and then proceeds to shower Sigurd with accolades, that they knew he was innocent all along and tells him that Arvis has planned a giant celebration planned at Belhalla. Remember, the entirety of the continent besides Silesse thought Sigurd and his father were causing all of the current conflict in Jugdral.

Yeah, like I said, Alvis is depicted as a neutral agent (Claude tells Sigurd Alvis is neutral at first, and then doesn't mention Alvis at all when he gets his magical vision from Blaggi that is meant to directly name the conspirators. Blaggi also neglects to mention Androney for some reason too). They don't really fight on a technicality either, Aida and her troops directly attack any of Reptor's troops that are in range and Sigurd knows it. Spitting distance is also pretty generous for saying where Sigurd's family died (especially Cuan and Ethlyn who were killed by Thracians for their own blood feud as much as anything else). There's enough shade for it to be suspicious, but not enough, I think, for turning tail and running or murdering Aida to be justified courses of action. Someone who is rampantly paranoid might have been able to avoid the situation, but I can't really fault Sigurd for it. He had just been helped by the ally army. I think most characters would have done the same thing as he did in that situation. It'd be like Roy suspecting that Etrunia aren't there to help him when they show up to chase off Byrne early in FE6.

Edited February 22, 2019 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

15 minutes ago, Slumber said:

This is something I addressed repeatedly in the other thread, but Claud DOES warn Sigurd that Arvis probably isn't on Sigurd's side. While it is a purposefully ambiguous statement, it is dropped in a conversation about the resulting fallout of the conspiracy against his father.

And he only helped Sigurd fight Reptor on a technicality. Aida and the Velthomer army spent the majority of that final conflict on the sidelines, directly watching over the fight and doing nothing. Which becomes more suspect when Sigurd is repeatedly told that Arvis and Velthomer are neutral entities in this conflict.

Keep in mind that they sat there and watched as Sigurd's father, sister and brother-in-law were killed within spitting of Belhalla.

Which then becomes MORE suspect when Aida then turns on Reptor in the final moments of the fight, and then proceeds to shower Sigurd with accolades, that they knew he was innocent all along and tells him that Arvis has planned a giant celebration planned at Belhalla. Remember, the entirety of the continent besides Silesse thought Sigurd and his father were causing all of the current conflict in Jugdral.

Sigurd has little reason to trust them, and they were an entirely neutral force until it was clear which way the conflict was going.

Isn't doing nothing more a sign they are neutral, than a sign of otherwise?

The map is on a scale. Vyron died in Silesse, and Quan and Ethlyn deep in the Yied Desert. Nowhere near Velthomer forces.

Well, Aida says:

Aida:
“Alvis has been aware all along of your innocence. This has all been a conspiracy by Duke Leptor and Duke Langobalt. Their influence was just too much for Alvis to be able to do anything.”

Arvis may be in charge of the Royal Guard, but Reptor was head of the Council. He likely wielded more power than Arvis because of that. Even if it's still naive, it's not like it was outright idocy for Sigurd to think that it was true that Reptor had the political power to stop Arvis from doing anything in his favor until the moment was prime to backstab him.

6 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Yeah, but there's still references to Fury being Queen in Thracia 776. So I gather that Sileese got invaded, but were able to keep more of their independence compared to Isaach and Leinster.

Thracia776 states she was leading a resistance movement at Thove. If you remember, that was Silesse's northernmost castle, and Jugdral's, for that matter. Far remote for the Empire to fully take them down. I think she's only called Queen mostly by those opposing the Empire, and thus, recognizing her as Silesse's legitimate ruler, and disowning the Empire's occupation.

Edited February 22, 2019 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

8 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Yeah, but there's still references to Fury being Queen in Thracia 776. So I gather that Sileese got invaded, but were able to keep more of their independence compared to Isaach and Leinster.

Yeah, like I said, Alvis is depicted as a neutral agent (Claude tells Sigurd Alvis is neutral at first, and then doesn't mention Alvis at all when he gets his magical vision from Blaggi that is meant to directly name the conspirators. Blaggi also neglects to mention Androney for some reason too). They don't really fight on a technicality either, Aida and her troops directly attack any of Reptor's troops that are in range and Sigurd knows it. Spitting distance is also pretty generous for saying where Sigurd's family died (especially Cuan and Ethlyn who were killed by Thracians for their own blood feud as much as anything else). There's enough shade for it to be suspicious, but not enough, I think, for turning tail and running or murdering Aida to be justified courses of action. Someone who is rampantly paranoid might have been able to avoid the situation, but I can't really fault Sigurd for it. He had just been helped by the ally army. I think most characters would have done the same thing as he did in that situation. It'd be like Roy suspecting that Etrunia aren't there to help him when they show up to chase off Byrne early in FE6.

Or hell, even closer to home, it would be like assuming Sileese was about to murder him after they showed up to offer him shelter at the end of Chapter 3. They're a foreign nation that he has no close ties with showing up to offer him sanctuary immediately after he's been declared a traitor. That's actually way more shady than Alvis who is a countryman of Sigurd's that's just provided direct military support to defeat his enemy.

8 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Isn't doing nothing more a sign they are neutral, than a sign of otherwise?

The map is on a scale. Vyron died in Silesse, and Quan and Ethlyn deep in the Yied Desert. Nowhere near Velthomer forces.

Well, Aida says:

Aida:
“Alvis has been aware all along of your innocence. This has all been a conspiracy by Duke Leptor and Duke Langobalt. Their influence was just too much for Alvis to be able to do anything.”

Arvis may be in charge of the Royal Guard, but Reptor was head of the Council. He likely wielded more power than Arvis because of that. Even if it's still naive, it's not like it was outright idocy for Sigurd to think that it was true that Reptor had the political power to stop Arvis from doing anything in his favor until the moment was prime to backstab him.

Thracia776 states she was leading a resistance movement at Thove. If you remember, that was Silesse's northernmost castle, and Jugdral's, for that matter. Far remote for the Empire to fully take them down. I think she's only called Queen mostly by those opposing the Empire, and thus, recognizing her as Silesse's legitimate ruler, and disowning the Empire's occupation.

Hmm, yeah that situation makes sense. But then equally so, if Sigurd had decided to remain in Silesse, he could have been leading that very resistance movement like I suggested above. It would have been the best result he could have hoped for.

[Slumber]

11 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Yeah, but there's still references to Fury being Queen in Thracia 776. So I gather that Sileese got invaded, but were able to keep more of their independence compared to Isaach and Leinster.

Yeah, like I said, Alvis is depicted as a neutral agent (Claude tells Sigurd Alvis is neutral at first, and then doesn't mention Alvis at all when he gets his magical vision from Blaggi that is meant to directly name the conspirators. Blaggi also neglects to mention Androney for some reason too). They don't really fight on a technicality either, Aida and her troops directly attack any of Reptor's troops that are in range and Sigurd knows it. Spitting distance is also pretty generous for saying where Sigurd's family died (especially Cuan and Ethlyn who were killed by Thracians for their own blood feud as much as anything else). There's enough shade for it to be suspicious, but not enough, I think, for turning tail and running or murdering Aida to be justified courses of action. Someone who is rampantly paranoid might have been able to avoid the situation, but I can't really fault Sigurd for it. He had just been helped by the ally army. I think most characters would have done the same thing as he did in that situation. It'd be like Roy suspecting that Etrunia aren't there to help him when they show up to chase off Byrne early in FE6.

 

11 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Isn't doing nothing more a sign they are neutral, than a sign of otherwise?

The map is on a scale. Vyron died in Silesse, and Quan and Ethlyn deep in the Yied Desert. Nowhere near Velthomer forces.

Well, Aida says:

Aida:
“Alvis has been aware all along of your innocence. This has all been a conspiracy by Duke Leptor and Duke Langobalt. Their influence was just too much for Alvis to be able to do anything.”

Arvis may be in charge of the Royal Guard, but Reptor was head of the Council. He likely wielded more power than Arvis because of that. Even if it's still naive, it's not like it was outright idocy for Sigurd to think that it was true that Reptor had the political power to stop Arvis from doing anything in his favor until the moment was prime to backstab him.

"Spitting distance" was obviously exaggerating, but it's not too exaggerated to say they died within areas that weren't out of Velthomer's reach.

And again, it's not just that they were neutral and not doing anything that raises red flags. It's the clear declaration that they were totally on Sigurd's side and knew he was innocent all along, despite no indications of this when Sigurd was in the most trouble and peril. Everything Aida says to get Sigurd and his army to come to Belhalla should raise some eyebrows.

Aida's argument for Arvis being unable to do anything fails to stand up to scrutiny any time after Langobalt dies, which is early into chapter 5. Once Langobalt is dead, Reptor's completely surrounded, and there's very little he could do, and Arvis still doesn't step in. Oh, and a tidbit I forgot, Aida says that Belhalla's army is waiting for him at this meeting.

If this were any other lord(Besides maybe Chrom and Corrin), I fully believe they would have been able to see this as a trap.

Here's how I put it in the other thread. It was close to Christmas time and I may have had a drink or two, but I think it stands:

On 12/23/2018 at 3:05 AM, Slumber said:

Even back in elementary school, I would have found it incredibly suspicious if I was caught up in some crazy neighborhood drama, and my best friend, not even a near stranger who somebody told me probably isn't on my side, said "Hey, look. I believe you. Come over to my house, there's a cake for you here. All of my friends are here and we all have slap bracelets and nerf guns."

I'm reasonably sure that's an Ed, Edd, n' Eddy(Maybe Hey Arnold or Recess) episode, and the Eds fell for the same shit Sigurd did.

Edited February 22, 2019 by Slumber

[Jotari]

56 minutes ago, Slumber said:

 

"Spitting distance" was obviously exaggerating, but it's not too exaggerated to say they died within areas that weren't out of Velthomer's reach.

And again, it's not just that they were neutral and not doing anything that raises red flags. It's the clear declaration that they were totally on Sigurd's side and knew he was innocent all along, despite no indications of this when Sigurd was in the most trouble and peril. Everything Aida says to get Sigurd and his army to come to Belhalla should raise some eyebrows.

Aida's argument for Arvis being unable to do anything fails to stand up to scrutiny any time after Langobalt dies, which is early into chapter 5. Once Langobalt is dead, Reptor's completely surrounded, and there's very little he could do, and Arvis still doesn't step in. Oh, and a tidbit I forgot, Aida says that Belhalla's army is waiting for him at this meeting.

If this were any other lord(Besides maybe Chrom and Corrin), I fully believe they would have been able to see this as a trap.

Here's how I put it in the other thread. It was close to Christmas time and I may have had a drink or two, but I think it stands:

Well ultimately this one can't be argued with facts as it's entirely opinion based. The way I see it we have

Reasons To Trust This Guy

*I have no evidence he had any part in the plot to murder my father and prince.

*He just helped me defeat the guy who did plot to murder my father and prince.

Reasons Not To Trust This Guy

*Everyone's out to get me.

*He just betrayed the guy who did the plot to murder my father and prince.

We have a spectrum here running from naivety to paranoia. I think Sigurd's in the healthy middle here and you'd need to be more on the paranoia side to outright reject Alvis's offer. And then, once again, what would he have done? Went back to Sileese (or I suppose Leinster) and just never returned to his home country on a gut feeling? Murdered Alvis and Aida on his suspicions and thus becoming the very traitor he was branded as? Sigurd's intentions are very clear, he wanted to speak to the ailing King and clear his and his friends name. He would not have had any chance to do that by taking any course of action. The justification is "This Seems Too Good To Be True So It Probably Is". We know from hindsight that it was too good to be true and that paranoia would have been preferable. But that's just how the situation was. I think if someone rejected Alvis's offer based on the fact that it seemed too good to be true, they would have equally have rejected Queen Rahna's offer which was way more too good to be true (hey dude, I know I'm from the next neighborhood and don't know anything about your street, but I totally believe you're innocent even before you say a word to me, why don't you come have a sleep over at my place for the next year and a half?) and would have been defeated then and there.

[Slumber]

16 minutes ago, Jotari said:

We have a spectrum here running from naivety to paranoia. I think Sigurd's in the healthy middle here and you'd need to be more on the paranoia side to outright reject Alvis's offer. And then, once again, what would he have done? Went back to Sileese (or I suppose Leinster) and just never returned to his home country on a gut feeling? Murdered Alvis and Aida on his suspicions and thus becoming the very traitor he was branded as? Sigurd's intentions are very clear, he wanted to speak to the ailing King and clear his and his friends name. He would not have had any chance to do that by taking any course of action. The justification is "This Seems Too Good To Be True So It Probably Is". We know from hindsight that it was too good to be true and that paranoia would have been preferable. But that's just how the situation was. I think if someone rejected Alvis's offer based on the fact that it seemed too good to be true, they would have equally have rejected Queen Rahna's offer which was way more too good to be true (hey dude, I know I'm from the next neighborhood and don't know anything about your street, but I totally believe you're innocent even before you say a word to me, why don't you come have a sleep over at my place for the next year and a half?) and would have been defeated then and there.

I don't think we're really running a spectrum of naivety to paranoia for Sigurd, especially since we now know that it was Kaga's intention for Sigurd to come across as naive and that the massacre at Belhalla was avoidable.

Maybe it's not just any one choice that led to the massacre; I never argued that it was a single one. But Sigurd makes a series of bad choices throughout FE4, and I've argued as such before. With this recent revelation that it was intentional, I really don't think some of these actions are as up to interpretation as they once were.

[Jotari]

25 minutes ago, Slumber said:

I don't think we're really running a spectrum of naivety to paranoia for Sigurd, especially since we now know that it was Kaga's intention for Sigurd to come across as naive and that the massacre at Belhalla was avoidable.

Maybe it's not just any one choice that led to the massacre; I never argued that it was a single one. But Sigurd makes a series of bad choices throughout FE4, and I've argued as such before. With this recent revelation that it was intentional, I really don't think some of these actions are as up to interpretation as they once were.

Maybe it was Kaga's intention for Sigurd to make a series of bad decisions that lead to his tragedy, but given what actually happens in the game, I think Sigurd made a series of good decisions that still lead to the massacre.

*Save your friend after a hostile nation breaks a peace treaty and invades and sacks your villages, good decision;

*Defend your country when another hostile nation imprisons your friend and tries to kill his sister. good decision;

*Stay in the occupied country and try restore peace, well, not necessarily a good decision but, but not defying your king's orders and abandoning the post you were assigned to, good decision (if you really think about it, the Eldigan Sigurd conflict is a case of Camus vs Camus);

*Flee to a foreign country after you've been accused of being a traitor, good decision;

*Help your host family win a civil war, good decision;

*Go on the offensive to prevent your enemies from attacking your host family's country, crazy maybe but he was capable of pulling it off so good decision.

Given the facts, and given that Sigurd has an earnest desire to help people, I can't see how any of these things taken in isolation could have been considered a mistake. His survival could only have happened if he was a paranoid conspiracy theorists willing to abandon everything he holds dear. I think Marth, Roy, Ephraim or any of the other lords in the series would have made those same choices, and indeed, many of them have made those very choices, but they were lucky enough to be in a story that wasn't destined for tragedy. And even if Sigurd did do any of those things differently, the results would have likely been the same, because the big deciding factors for how the civil war was resolved had nothing to do with Sigurd.

Edited February 22, 2019 by Jotari

[omegaxis1]

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

So do you still believe Sigurd invaded Verdane without permission based on a quote about what he was told to do after having finished conquering Verdane?

Yes. Because as Manfroy indicated, Granvalle has an anti-war policy. Without any indication of warnings or issues sent to Verdane about things, and Sigurd just diving into the conflict to save Adean, he was not necessarily thinking how it would reflect on Granvalle to invade. And even afterward, despite getting explicit orders to hold Evans Castle, Sigurd went and invaded Augustria when they attacked, an act that pissed Eldigan off and Sigurd had no way of really explaining himself and pleading for more time. 

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

I never said Sigurd didn't know about the brands. Just that he didn't recognise the specific mark of Naga. There's like 12 of them.

That is impossible, as the Brand of Naga is something any noble in Granvalle should know. It is the Brand of Heim and the royal family. The inability to recognize the Brand of Naga shows a severe lack of knowledge that Sigurd really should have known, as the heir of House Chalphy and a Holy Warrior himself. 

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

A = B = C. Therefore A = C. That's not maths work, but it's not how words work. There is nuance between these things. Wisdom and Knowledge are not identical. Inexperience would have been the better word to focus on there.

1

I'm seriously wondering why you think lack of knowledge over the Brands equated to not being booksmart gives Sigurd any form of excuses to Sigurd being labeled as naive. In fact, lacking in knowledge goes even further to indicate how Sigurd even fails as a noble, as those of nobility are meant to hold knowledge over their nations and culture. And the culture being centered around the Brands give even more reason why everyone oughta know no matter what. 

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

But Sigurd didn't know Deirdre is Kurth's daughter. You can claim he should have known what the brand looks like, but he didn't. Her being a decedent of Naga is information he doesn't possess, so he can't act on it. And, perhaps you missed it because I edited it afterwards, this is not information the game brings to our attention. There is no way for the player to play through Chapters 1-4 thinking Sigurd is incompetent for not recognizing Deirdre's true heritage because Deirdre's true heritage isn't revealed to the player (out of the status screen). Fundamentally that's not how writing works. A plot point actually has to be presented for it to have any effect. The game never highlights Deirdre's mark until chapter 5 and in fact goes to lengths to display how it's in fact hard for her mark to be noticed. For all we know Deirdre never took her circlet off even when they were in bed. For this criticism to work, you need to have the mark in full view to both the player and Sigurd.

3

Your argument is completely wrong. You are trying to associate Sigurd with the player, and when the narrative revealed Deirdre's marking. But that's not how it works. As Kaga stated, if Sigurd himself, had been more competent, the tragedy would have been avoided. But Kaga wrote Sigurd to be someone that was so excessively naive and incompetent that that is precisely why the narrative of the tragedy happened. The inability to recognize the most important brand in all of Jugdral, despite having been with her for so long, well over a year, shows how Sigurd was ultimately incompetent.

Also, the excuse that Deirdre never took her circlet off even in bed is a poor excuse. Players are meant to look at the story and characters and be able to read between the lines. Sigurd having been with Deirdre for so long must mean that he must have seen her forehead and Brand. But he lacked the ability to recognize the Brand of Naga even though its the most important Brand. 

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

Here's another situation with the same thing, saying characters should recognise something that they didn't, therefore it's a narrative failing on their part that means they deserve their tragedy. Ike has heard the Black Knight speak. Ike has heard Zelguis speak. Ike should have been able to recognize they share the same voice as that night was incredibly important to him. Ike should have murdered Zelguis in Begnion when he didn't have his blessed armour on. Only Ike didn't manage to recognise they share the same voice, no matter how much I claim he should have because due to the importance of that night. Likewise, Sigurd didn't recognise the mark on Deirdre, no matter how much you claim he should have.

Not really. The argument of Ike not recognizing the Black Knight despite hearing Zelgius speak doesn't work. This is what I meant by reading between the lines. Zelgius and the Black Knight are done by Zelgius basically taking on two personas. As Zelgius, he is a proud and honorable knight that serves Begnion. As the Black Knight, he's a ruthless warrior of Daein that would threaten to torture a little girl to get what he wants. 

This is where one's tone can very well be hard to distinguish. The Black Knight having that persona and wearing a helmet, his own voice becomes altered because of the echo that gets made. But as Zelgius without the helmet, the voice is stern and commanding without any echo. It isn't a surprise that Ike wouldn't recognize Zelgius as the Black Knight.

Now, you're going to argue and no doubt say that this is conjecture on my part. And it is. But trying to identify a voice from two guys that Ike has had very little interaction with like that from Sigurd not ever having seen Deirdre's forehead despite all the time they had spent together is not the same kind of argument.

6 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

As I showed with the dialogue, Dierdre didn't touch the tome. Azmur simply felt something, then they checked if she had the mark.

I think it boils down to how often Dierdre would take off her circlet. Thing is, if she did took it off at a point Sigurd could've seen the mark, then she could've also taken it off at Velthomer. If Granvale's medieval-esque society mirrors those of ours, there'd be people there to have seen it in such situations. At the very least, a physician would've checked her when first found, and likely asked her to take off the circlet to better examine her head. Specially since "hit on the head" is like standard-cliche for memory loss situations.

Certainly. Being Kurth's daughter would've sent warning signs to Arvis that maybe she's his half-sister, due to the whole affair thing. It probably depends if Kurth ever courted other women (unlikely, as Filat said he was a "straight arrow"), or... well, Arvis himself isn't above some naivety or making mistakes himself. He was already played by Manfroy. Or maybe being in love with Dierdre sent him into subconscious denial? Beats me...

Sigurd spent well over a year with her. If anyone had every chance of seeing the Brand in that time, it was him. 

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

Alvis, likely knows Kurth had an affair with his mother, but he doesn't know Deirdre is his mother's daughter. It's not farfecthed at all to assume a man would have more than one affair over the course of his life (doubly so if we know he had at least one, Kurth was straight as an arrow, so it was shocking to see he had one affair in the first place, if he can have one, why not another?). Kaga does say that Alvis discovered it eventually though by travelling to the Spirit Forest himself in secret (which by the by also means he was able to find it). More than that though he should have been able to recognise the obvious similarity between his mother and Deirdre if she looks anything like her official art. Mommy issues I guess.

Honestly, it isn't just Sigurd that is heavily flawed in being incompetent. I made the argument that Arvis was very much incompetent for missing so many signs, especially since there was reason to suspect that Manfroy was behind Arvis's meeting with Deirdre. 

Both Sigurd and Arvis could have avoided the tragedy had they been able to piece the information together. 

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

Yes, that's what we know (or can assume). But the characters in universe don't know how illicit in the sheets Kurth was. All they know is that he had one affair and that means it's possible he could have another. I actually mention this in my Bloom fanfic (two plugs in one day, I need it, no one seems to be interested, I guess because Bloom is one of the least popular characters in the series) where they speculate that Deirdre could be one of Bloom's cousins (and in doing so show the exact moment where Alvis suddenly realises it in secret).

That's a VERY poor excuse to give. Unlike Arvis, that had an indication that he had at least slept with someone before Deirdre (Aida having Arvis's illegitimate child Saias) is made, while Kurth is stated to have anyone but Cigyun. And you are associating Kurth's affair with Cigyun as the wrong form of affair.

Quote

Filat:
“Oh, I may as well tell you the whole story. This all took place nearly 20 years ago. The lovely duchess of Velthomer, a married woman mind you, fell for the prince. Now the duke of Velthomer was a reputed womaniser and had several lovers. The prince, however, was a straight arrow. Initially, the prince merely sympathised with the duchess, but then one day the two fell deeply in love. Now the duke lost his head. After writing a letter denouncing the two, he committed suicide. The duchess, clearly perplexed, disappeared without a trace. I believe her name was Cigyun.”

Having a scumbag of a husband like that, Cigyun was obviously distraught and Kurth comforted her, which one thing led to another and then bam. Kurth had the affair because he fell in love with Cigyun, not because he was some playboy that liked to bed women. 

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Yes. Because as Manfroy indicated, Granvalle has an anti-war policy. Without any indication of warnings or issues sent to Verdane about things, and Sigurd just diving into the conflict to save Adean, he was not necessarily thinking how it would reflect on Granvalle to invade. And even afterward, despite getting explicit orders to hold Evans Castle, Sigurd went and invaded Augustria when they attacked, an act that pissed Eldigan off and Sigurd had no way of really explaining himself and pleading for more time. 

We don't need go on Manfroy's war that Grannvale had an anti war policy, the opening confirms that Grannvale had an anti agression pact with Verdane, a pact that Verdane violated. Sigurd didn't need to declare war, Verdane already had. Sigurd got explicit orders to hold Evans after conquering Verdane, and later when Chagall militarized and attacked Nodion, he had explicit permission to invade Agustria. See my quote above where Sigurd says in no uncertain terms that he doesn't like bringing soldiers onto foreign soil but believes it is necessary to save his homeland and protect his friends, and his king agrees.
That is impossible, as the Brand of Naga is something any noble in Granvalle should know. It is the Brand of Heim and the royal family. The inability to recognize the Brand of Naga shows a severe lack of knowledge that Sigurd really should have known, as the heir of House Chalphy and a Holy Warrior himself. 

I'm seriously wondering why you think lack of knowledge over the Brands equated to not being booksmart gives Sigurd any form of excuses to Sigurd being labeled as naive. In fact, lacking in knowledge goes even further to indicate how Sigurd even fails as a noble, as those of nobility are meant to hold knowledge over their nations and culture. And the culture being centered around the Brands give even more reason why everyone oughta know no matter what. 

That the brand of Naga is an recognizable iconography is an assumption. That Sigurd ever even saw the brand of Naga on Deirdre is an assumption. That the Brand is even large and distinguishable enough on Deirdre under a narrow circlet is an assumption. You might say he should know it and he should have seen it, but it as weak as my counter assertion that Ike should have recognized Zelguis's voice. The fact is that he didn't. Your argument is completely wrong. You are trying to associate Sigurd with the player, and when the narrative revealed Deirdre's marking. But that's not how it works. As Kaga stated, if Sigurd himself, had been more competent, the tragedy would have been avoided. But Kaga wrote Sigurd to be someone that was so excessively naive and incompetent that that is precisely why the narrative of the tragedy happened. The inability to recognize the most important brand in all of Jugdral, despite having been with her for so long, well over a year, shows how Sigurd was ultimately incompetent.

Also, the excuse that Deirdre never took her circlet off even in bed is a poor excuse. Players are meant to look at the story and characters and be able to read between the lines. Sigurd having been with Deirdre for so long must mean that he must have seen her forehead and Brand. But he lacked the ability to recognize the Brand of Naga even though its the most important Brand. 

When Sigurd is on screen, he conveys a certain character. For that character to be seen as incompetence, we must have the knowledge to see him display incompetence. Sigurd never displays incompetence with this issue. It's something that must be deduced after the fact. If that was Kaga's intention, it's shitty writing at it's finest. A simple scene where Sigurd realizes Deirdre has a brand and Sigurd is shown to be unable to recognise it would have been all that was needed. But what we did get is absolutely no knowledge that Sigurd ever seen the Brand and even if he did, that it is distinctive enough to be recognised. Without that scene, all you have is the assumption that Deirdre takes it off when she's sleeping.

Not really. The argument of Ike not recognizing the Black Knight despite hearing Zelgius speak doesn't work. This is what I meant by reading between the lines. Zelgius and the Black Knight are done by Zelgius basically taking on two personas. As Zelgius, he is a proud and honorable knight that serves Begnion. As the Black Knight, he's a ruthless warrior of Daein that would threaten to torture a little girl to get what he wants. 

Yes, you're right. The argument of Ike not recognizing the Black Knight doesn't work. That was my entire point. Me saying that Ike should have recognized the Black Knight's voice is all that the argument has to stand on, just like you claiming Sigurd seen and could recognise the brand is all your argument has to stand on. The essence of both is "This character should have been capable of this because I say so."

This is where one's tone can very well be hard to distinguish. The Black Knight having that persona and wearing a helmet, his own voice becomes altered because of the echo that gets made. But as Zelgius without the helmet, the voice is stern and commanding without any echo. It isn't a surprise that Ike wouldn't recognize Zelgius as the Black Knight.

Now, you're going to argue and no doubt say that this is conjecture on my part. And it is. But trying to identify a voice from two guys that Ike has had very little interaction with like that from Sigurd not ever having seen Deirdre's forehead despite all the time they had spent together is not the same kind of argument.

Yes it is.

Sigurd spent well over a year with her. If anyone had every chance of seeing the Brand in that time, it was him. 

And maybe he didn't. Or maybe the Brand is a simple cross like Alm's that can be mistaken for an ordinary birth mark. Or maybe Sigurd does see it and assumes it's the mark of loptyr and loptyr and Naga have the same mark because they're dragons of equivalent power. The game never goes into detail about this so all of it is conjecture.

Honestly, it isn't just Sigurd that is heavily flawed in being incompetent. I made the argument that Arvis was very much incompetent for missing so many signs, especially since there was reason to suspect that Manfroy was behind Arvis's meeting with Deirdre. 

I agree, Alvis is a very flawed individual who got played like a fiddle.

Both Sigurd and Arvis could have avoided the tragedy had they been able to piece the information together. 

Alvis, yes. Sigurd, no, as he didn't have any of the relevant information.

That's a VERY poor excuse to give. Unlike Arvis, that had an indication that he had at least slept with someone before Deirdre (Aida having Arvis's illegitimate child Saias) is made, while Kurth is stated to have anyone but Cigyun. And you are associating Kurth's affair with Cigyun as the wrong form of affair.

That's Kurth's public reputation. But we don't know. We've never even seen him on screen before. I'm not saying he has ever slept with a woman besides Cigyun, because we don't have any proof to indicate that he has, I'm saying that the characters in universe can't assume that because they don't know every detail of his life.

Having a scumbag of a husband like that, Cigyun was obviously distraught and Kurth comforted her, which one thing led to another and then bam. Kurth had the affair because he fell in love with Cigyun, not because he was some playboy that liked to bed women.

I don't claim that he is. Just that the characters in universe could theorize he's slept with more than a single woman in his 40ish years of life. Especially if they assume Deirdre is older than she is and was born before the Cigyun relationship (does Deirdre look older than she is *shrug* she's the same age as Azelle at any rate and looks a little older than him. On the other hand he looks a little too young to be 19 anyway). Cigyun is still the most obvious suspect, but it's not such concrete evidence that people will cry incest at the marriage. No doubt a lot of people did whisper and talk about that likely possibility, but given Alvis's reputation and fierce denial of his mother's affair, no one would have broached the subject to him.

 

Edited February 22, 2019 by Jotari

[omegaxis1]

50 minutes ago, Jotari said:

We don't need go on Manfroy's war that Grannvale had an anti war policy, the opening confirms that Grannvale had an anti agression pact with Verdane, a pact that Verdane violated. Sigurd didn't need to declare war, Verdane already had. Sigurd got explicit orders to hold Evans after conquering Verdane, and later when Chagall militarized and attacked Nodion, he had explicit permission to invade Agustria. See my quote above where Sigurd says in no uncertain terms that he doesn't like bringing soldiers onto foreign soil but believes it is necessary to save his homeland and protect his friends, and his king agrees.

A pact that is violated like that doesn't mean that you charge into war. By holding a defensive position and warding off the invasion, you can try to throw an effort for ceasefire. But the moment that war reached Sigurd's steps, his desire to protect others resulted in him meeting the invasion head on and trying to conquer the enemy.

Also, the thing about Verdane's issue is that Sigurd was focused on trying to get back Adean, correct? 

Why is it that the moment Sigurd got Adean back, he didn't order a full retreat? The only reason he moved to Verdane territory was that Adean was held there. The moment that she had been secured thanks to Jamke assisting her, Sigurd had every right to retreat and reason to get back to Granvalle. But instead, he stayed, fought, and ultimately conquered Verdane. Nothing suggests he was given permission to invade Verdane explicitly, but more just get back Adean.

50 minutes ago, Jotari said:

That the brand of Naga is an recognizable iconography is an assumption. That Sigurd ever even saw the brand of Naga on Deirdre is an assumption. That the Brand is even large and distinguishable enough on Deirdre under a narrow circlet is an assumption. You might say he should know it and he should have seen it, but it as weak as my counter assertion that Ike should have recognized Zelguis's voice. The fact is that he didn't. 

2

Again, why are you trying to downplay the case of the importance of the Brand? By doing this, you are completely ignoring the culture that Jugdral is structured around. The Brands are very much revered for their importance, and proof of one's lineage. Connection to the very gods. Knowing how the Brands look like would be elementary level education. So Sigurd NOT recognizing it is just proof of his ignorance over something that is common knowledge, meaning that he is very much incompetent. 

Also, what? 

You are comparing Ike meeting a guy, what, 3 times in different situations and be able to recognize that over Sigurd spending a lot of time with Deirdre, and he never once saw the Brand? This is what I meant by you not reading between the lines. The moment that Azmur had seen the Brand of Naga on Deirdre's forehead, it means that she always had that on her. 

Your entire argument over Sigurd not recognizing the Brand to be very weak in regards to how "it's not common knowledge" or "he never saw her Brand" or "that just means Sigurd isn't booksmart, that doesn't prove that he's incompetent" is absolutely ludicrous because it there's absolutely no logical sense behind them. Everything you're arguing with falls under a fallacy.

50 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Yes, you're right. The argument of Ike not recognizing the Black Knight doesn't work. That was my entire point. Me saying that Ike should have recognized the Black Knight's voice is all that the argument has to stand on, just like you claiming Sigurd seen and could recognise the brand is all your argument has to stand on. The essence of both is "This character should have been capable of this because I say so."

2

Once again, you're running around the case of logical fallacy. 

Sigurd married Deirdre, had sex with Deidre and was with Deirdre for a long time. He had all the chances in the world to have seen the Brand. Him not being able to recognize it, therefore, means that Sigurd is very much incompetent. You argued the case of the narrative of the player. But if Kaga is saying that he made Sigurd naive on purpose, lacking all these basic info. If the narrative reveals that Deirdre had the Brand of Naga on her forehead, then, by all means, it's very much telling that Sigurd spent all that time with her and never realized it. Therefore, proof of naivete and thus, had he known her lineage, he would have been able to avert the tragedy.

50 minutes ago, Jotari said:

And maybe he didn't. Or maybe the Brand is a simple cross like Alm's that can be mistaken for an ordinary birth mark. Or maybe Sigurd does see it and assumes it's the mark of loptyr and loptyr and Naga have the same mark because they're dragons of equivalent power. The game never goes into detail about this so all of it is conjecture.

3

You're reaching. Like, painfully so. You're now just throwing as many wild accusations and just making excuses to insist that Sigurd is not incompetent. 

50 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I agree, Alvis is a very flawed individual who got played like a fiddle.

Alvis, yes. Sigurd, no, as he didn't have any of the relevant information.

1

He had all the information. Him lacking the ability to recognize the Brand of Naga, despite being a noble of House Chalphy, with a Brand of his own, and not being able to piece all the info together makes no sense.

Had he been more competent, this is how everything would piece together:

- Deirdre has a cursed bloodline of Loptous and is targetted by a dark cult.

- The King of Verdane warns Sigurd that the dark cult are behind the mess. 

- Deirdre has the Brand of Naga, meaning that she is related to the royal family and has Naga's blood.

- Filat informs Sigurd of the affair Kurth had with Arvis's mother. 

- If Kurth had an affair with Arvis's mother, that might mean that Deirdre having the Brand of Naga must mean that she's Kurth's daughter, but also Arvis's sister.

- Deirdre and Arvis having the same mother must mean that Cigyun has Loptous blood, and both Deirdre and Arvis have Loptous Blood.

- The dark cult may be trying to set those two up so that they produce a Loptous vessel. 

Had he been a more competent person, Sigurd had all the information to not just get out of the mess, but see through Manfroy's plan. 

Why did he not succeed? Because he is too naive and is incapable of seeing the bigger picture, of seeing what really was going on. Just as Kaga intended for Sigurd, so that it foreshadows how Seliph is able to avoid his father's mistakes.

50 minutes ago, Jotari said:

That's Kurth's public reputation. But we don't know. We've never even seen him on screen before. I'm not saying he has ever slept with a woman besides Cigyun, because we don't have any proof to indicate that he has, I'm saying that the characters in universe can't assume that because they don't know every detail of his life.

I don't claim that he is. Just that the characters in universe could theorize he's slept with more than a single woman in his 40ish years of life. Especially if they assume Deirdre is older than she is and was born before the Cigyun relationship (does Deirdre look older than she is *shrug* she's the same age as Azelle at any rate and looks a little older than him. On the other hand he looks a little too young to be 19 anyway). Cigyun is still the most obvious suspect, but it's not such concrete evidence that people will cry incest at the marriage. No doubt a lot of people did whisper and talk about that likely possibility, but given Alvis's reputation and fierce denial of his mother's affair, no one would have broached the subject to him.

6

That wasn't a public reputation. the affair with Cigyun is something that isn't public information.

Quote

Filat:
“Er… Well, only a select few at the Royal Court know this but… It seems His Highness is having problems letting go of a love from his past.”

Also, since they are looking for a bride for Kurth, and he hasn't bothered, it makes little sense to make an argument that he might be a playboy behind doors or such. 

[Jotari]

40 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

A pact that is violated like that doesn't mean that you charge into war. By holding a defensive position and warding off the invasion, you can try to throw an effort for ceasefire. But the moment that war reached Sigurd's steps, his desire to protect others resulted in him meeting the invasion head on and trying to conquer the enemy.

Maybe that's the way you wage war, but it's not how Grannvale does if you look at Isaach

Also, the thing about Verdane's issue is that Sigurd was focused on trying to get back Adean, correct? 

Why is it that the moment Sigurd got Adean back, he didn't order a full retreat? The only reason he moved to Verdane territory was that Adean was held there. The moment that she had been secured thanks to Jamke assisting her, Sigurd had every right to retreat and reason to get back to Granvalle. But instead, he stayed, fought, and ultimately conquered Verdane. Nothing suggests he was given permission to invade Verdane explicitly, but more just get back Adean.

Because it wasn't solely about Adean. It was also about the fact that they invaded Grannvale after breaking a peace treaty. Do you think the Soviets just stayed at home in Russia after repelling Operation Barbarossa? No, they fought back and conquered Berlin because if they let up then Germany would have invaded again (and they also gained a massive amount of territory and resources in doing so catapulting them into becoming one of the two most powerful nations in the world). It's amazing you're still arguing this point when Sigurd got a promotion for invading Verdane.

Again, why are you trying to downplay the case of the importance of the Brand? By doing this, you are completely ignoring the culture that Jugdral is structured around. The Brands are very much revered for their importance, and proof of one's lineage. Connection to the very gods. Knowing how the Brands look like would be elementary level education. So Sigurd NOT recognizing it is just proof of his ignorance over something that is common knowledge, meaning that he is very much incompetent. 

Okay, so show me a brand. Show me a single image of what a brand looks like. We don't see the iconography of the brands anywhere in game except on Julius' forehead. And you know what that brand is? A vertical line with a dot on either side. If the brand of is so important, then why isn't it displayed anywhere.

Also, what? 

You are comparing Ike meeting a guy, what, 3 times in different situations and be able to recognize that over Sigurd spending a lot of time with Deirdre, and he never once saw the Brand? This is what I meant by you not reading between the lines. The moment that Azmur had seen the Brand of Naga on Deirdre's forehead, it means that she always had that on her. 

Yes. I'm comparing Ike meeting a man who killed his father to Sigurd sleeping with his wife. Griel dying in Ike's hand was one of the most traumatic moments of his life. Everything about that scene has been etched into his head. The smell of the forest. The light of the moon. And the voice of the man who did it.  And then he was unable to recognize the very same man when they met three months later, or again when he met the black knight and Zelguis within the same week. I don't believe it's true, but I believe it's as credible as your assertion that Sigurd must have seen Deirdre's brand, recognized the brand and that the brand must have been iconic enough to be easily recognized. Me saying Ike should have recognised Zelguis isn't true because I say he should have, no more than your assertion that Sigurd should have recognized Deirdre's brand is true.

Your entire argument over Sigurd not recognizing the Brand to be very weak in regards to how "it's not common knowledge" or "he never saw her Brand" or "that just means Sigurd isn't booksmart, that doesn't prove that he's incompetent" is absolutely ludicrous because it there's absolutely no logical sense behind them. Everything you're arguing with falls under a fallacy.

Once again, you're running around the case of logical fallacy. 

And your entire argument falls because it's based on something that isn't in the narrative. If this was meant to be part of the story, then there would have been a scene with it in the game.

Sigurd married Deirdre, had sex with Deidre and was with Deirdre for a long time. He had all the chances in the world to have seen the Brand. Him not being able to recognize it, therefore, means that Sigurd is very much incompetent. You argued the case of the narrative of the player. But if Kaga is saying that he made Sigurd naive on purpose, lacking all these basic info. If the narrative reveals that Deirdre had the Brand of Naga on her forehead, then, by all means, it's very much telling that Sigurd spent all that time with her and never realized it. Therefore, proof of naivete and thus, had he known her lineage, he would have been able to avert the tragedy.

He didn't know her lineage though, so he was unable to avert the tragedy.

You're reaching. Like, painfully so. You're now just throwing as many wild accusations and just making excuses to insist that Sigurd is not incompetent. 

They aren't wild accusations. They're baseless assertions that have equal validity as your baseless assertions. Me saying the brand is a very simple shape easily mistaken for a birth mark is as valid as you saying it's a complicated shape that all nobles should know. With neither of us having proof from the game, neither suggestion is any more valid.

He had all the information. Him lacking the ability to recognize the Brand of Naga, despite being a noble of House Chalphy, with a Brand of his own, and not being able to piece all the info together makes no sense.

So you think it makes no sense. Fair enough, you can call it a plot hole if you want. That's one way of looking at it. Another way of looking at it, is that this series of events proves that Sigurd's an idiot who can't even read. Which must be the case if the mark of naga is as wide spread as you claim. It means Sigurd is a moron on the level of the mentally retarded to not be able to place two and two together. If that is indeed, the case, then why does this game hide this very crucial fact from us until Chapter 5? If it's meant to be the key concept of his entire character arc? Why is it delivered to us with only a single example that must be worked out in retrospect? Why at no other point in the story is Sigurd ever given two pieces of obvious information and fails to make a connection only for another character to point it out? That's not reading between the lines, that's omitting the lines entirely.

Had he been more competent, this is how everything would piece together:

- Deirdre has a cursed bloodline of Loptous and is targetted by a dark cult.

Yes, hence why he took her under his protection.

- The King of Verdane warns Sigurd that the dark cult are behind the mess. 

Yep, not much he can do about them when he doesn't know where they are though. Still manages to reason they're the dark shadow Claude talks about, if he was meant to be an utterly incompetent moron he wouldn't have worked that one out.

- Deirdre has the Brand of Naga, meaning that she is related to the royal family and has Naga's blood.

IIf you can prove Sigurd knows that with actual evidence instead of your own opinion that he should.

- Filat informs Sigurd of the affair Kurth had with Arvis's mother. 

- If Kurth had an affair with Arvis's mother, that might mean that Deirdre having the Brand of Naga must mean that she's Kurth's daughter, but also Arvis's sister.

- Deirdre and Arvis having the same mother must mean that Cigyun has Loptous blood, and both Deirdre and Arvis have Loptous Blood.

- The dark cult may be trying to set those two up so that they produce a Loptous vessel. 

All based on the assumption that he knows Deirdre's heritage, which he clearly doesn't. If the game wanted to lead us to believe he did and yet couldn't figure this out, they would have shown us a scene of him figuring it out.

Had he been a more competent person, Sigurd had all the information to not just get out of the mess, but see through Manfroy's plan. 

No he didn't. He didn't have the information of Deirdre's heritage. If you think he did, give me evidence.

Why did he not succeed? Because he is too naive and is incapable of seeing the bigger picture, of seeing what really was going on. Just as Kaga intended for Sigurd, so that it foreshadows how Seliph is able to avoid his father's mistakes.

That wasn't a public reputation. the affair with Cigyun is something that isn't public information.

Also, since they are looking for a bride for Kurth, and he hasn't bothered, it makes little sense to make an argument that he might be a playboy behind doors or such. 

You like to argue when I'm not even arguing against you. I'm not calling prince Kurth a slut (I mean he might be, I've never met him). I'm saying one very simple thing. That there is reasonable doubt for the gossipers who do know he had an affair with Cigyun. Answer me this. Do you think it is impossible, and I stress impossible, for the people in universe (not me, the people in universe), to suspect that their prince has slept with more than one woman in his entire life? Is that something they can no for absolute certainty can't be the case? That's all I'm saying. They don't know where Deirdre came from. They can guess, but that's all they can do.

 

Edited February 22, 2019 by Jotari

[omegaxis1]

38 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Maybe that's the way you wage war, but it's not how Grannvale does if you look at Isaach

 

The Isaach case is that there was a huge public outcry that resulted in Grannvale having no choice but to wage the war.

Quote

The peaceful town of Darna, located in the Yied Desert, came under siege by Isaacian barbarians.
Reports told of a massive slaughter taking place.

Back in Grandbell, public outcry began to grow, and before long the decision was made to subdue Isaac.
Acting on his father’s behalf, Prince Kurth departed for the front commanding the lords from each duchy.

 

38 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Because it wasn't solely about Adean. It was also about the fact that they invaded Grannvale after breaking a peace treaty. Do you think the Soviets just stayed at home in Russia after repelling Operation Barbarossa? No, they fought back and conquered Berlin because if they let up then Germany would have invaded again (and they also gained a massive amount of territory and resources in doing so catapulting them into becoming one of the two most powerful nations in the world). It's amazing you're still arguing this point when Sigurd got a promotion for invading Verdane.

 

Except everything Sigurd indicated is that he is going for Adean.

Quote

Adean was nowhere to be found in Evans Castle.
She had already been taken deep into Verdane territory.

Quote

Where had Adean been swept off to?

Quote

Sigurd:
“Eltshan, thanks for coming! Verdane has taken Lady Adean of Jungby hostage. And they showed no signs of releasing her, so I was forced to take up arms.”

No matter how you look at it, Sigurd only had to extract Adean out and retreat back to the home base and then mount a defense. But he instead went and started to keep his attack going till he conquered Verdane. He didn't need to, but he did. He ended up ultimately doing something that only caused Augustria to launch a war against them, forcing Sigurd to once again attack back, conquering Augustria and ultimately pissing of Eldigan and Sigurd being unable to explain his actions.

38 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Okay, so show me a brand. Show me a single image of what a brand looks like. We don't see the iconography of the brands anywhere in game except on Julius' forehead. And you know what that brand is? A vertical line with a dot on either side. If the brand of is so important, then why isn't it displayed anywhere.

2

Allow me to ask you something. 

A random soldier notices that Mareeta and Galzus possess the "Mark of Od" correct?

Quote

Soldier:
“Whoever did was clearly a very skilled individual. Some people say that they saw that mercenary, Galzus, near the scene… Are you sure he can be trusted, my lord?”

Reidric:
“Hm… Galzus…”

Soldier:
“Some claim that they saw the markings of Ordo on his back. If that’s true, it means he is of the royal family of Isaac…”

Reidric:
“Hmph, I am not so foolish as to hire a mercenary of unknown origins. Yes, he is part of the Isaac family. He is the prince of the now demolished Kingdom of Libo. He is in fact the cousin of Prince Shanan of Isaac.”

Soldier:
“Isn’t Prince Shanan one of the leaders of the rebel forces against the Empire? Is it safe to hire one of his relatives into our service?”

Reidric:
“Do you not know anything? The Kingdom of Libo, Galzus’
country, was invaded and destroyed by Isaac’s forces, led by Shanan’s grandfather. Galzus was put through many hardships since he was a youth because of that. Do you really think he would help Shanan?”

Soldier:
“Ah, I see…”

Reidric:
“I can see why he let that girl escape… I saw the same markings on her back as well… Hahaha…”

And when Azmur sees Deirdre, he has her reveal the Brand, which he notes is Mark of Naga. 

Quote

Villager:
“It is said that all direct descendants of the Crusaders have a sacred marking appear somewhere on their body during infancy. Prince Kurth’s daughter was recognised as a direct descendant of Saint Heim by the mark on her forehead.”

1

Quote

Azmur:
“Ahh, Diadora. You’re such a sweet child. I’m… wheeze… not long for this world, but you give me hope for the kingdom’s future. I don’t know when or how Kurth could have acquired himself such a wonderful daughter, but the markings on your brow clearly identify you as a direct descendant of the Royal Family. Where in heavens have you been living all this time?”

Quote

Azmur:
“The day you brought her in to the Royal Palace to announce your wedding intentions, I tell you… I could have swore my eyes were playing tricks on me! I don’t know. Call it a family’s intuition, but somehow I knew. And sure enough under her circlet were the markings of Narga. Lord Alvis, you understand what this all means, don’t you? According to the Book of Narga only descendants of Heim, like myself, can give off that kind of vibration. And Narga’s power is the only one capable of standing up to the Dark Lord Loputousu.”

The markings are able to be identified because they are all in different shapes and forms. All Brands are ultimately in unique shapes that allow for clear identification, even if they are not distinctly shown to us. Anyone reading can get the idea that they are Brands, but distinct in appearance that allows them to be identified.

So your argument of desiring proof is already met with in-game text. 

And by this point in time, everyone knows what the Brand of Naga looks like, as it would no doubt be the Brand of the Exalt. Like, look at Tiki's very circlet that she wears. It's shaped as Naga's Brand. 

38 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Yes. I'm comparing Ike meeting a man who killed his father to Sigurd sleeping with his wife. Griel dying in Ike's hand was one of the most traumatic moments of his life. Everything about that scene has been etched into his head. The smell of the forest. The light of the moon. And the voice of the man who did it.  And then he was unable to recognize the very same man when they met three months later, or again when he met the black knight and Zelguis within the same week. I don't believe it's true, but I believe it's as credible as your assertion that Sigurd must have seen Deirdre's brand, recognized the brand and that the brand must have been iconic enough to be easily recognized. Me saying Ike should have recognised Zelguis isn't true because I say he should have, no more than your assertion that Sigurd should have recognized Deirdre's brand is true.

3

Oh yes, because Zelgius is oh so incapable of disguising his voice or sounding different using his tones under a thick helmet, right? Despite how he should by all means be in disguise as the Black Knight, right? 

38 minutes ago, Jotari said:

And your entire argument falls because it's based on something that isn't in the narrative. If this was meant to be part of the story, then there would have been a scene with it in the game.

He didn't know her lineage though, so he was unable to avert the tragedy.

So you think it makes no sense. Fair enough, you can call it a plot hole if you want. That's one way of looking at it. Another way of looking at it, is that this series of events proves that Sigurd's an idiot who can't even read. Which must be the case if the mark of naga is as wide spread as you claim. It means Sigurd is a moron on the level of the mentally retarded to not be able to place two and two together. If that is indeed, the case, then why does this game hide this very crucial fact from us until Chapter 5? If it's meant to be the key concept of his entire character arc? Why is it delivered to us with only a single example that must be worked out in retrospect? Why at no other point in the story is Sigurd ever given two pieces of obvious information and fails to make a connection only for another character to point it out? That's not reading between the lines, that's omitting the lines entirely.

IIf you can prove Sigurd knows that with actual evidence instead of your own opinion that he should.

4

Oh wow. Let's see.

A villager and Azmur notes the Brand of Naga on Kurth's daughter. Kaga explicitly mentions that Sigurd is very naive, and had he been more competent, things could have been avoided. Gee, I wonder what this means? Maybe it means that Sigurd is made to be dumb enough to not realize a Brand when he should have. You are completely and utterly missing the entire point of the argument.

If Sigurd had been competent as a noble and knew what the Brand meant, he would have avoided all of this. Sigurd not recognizing the Brand of Naga is Sigurd's proof of incompetence and naivete. Like, seriously, how do you keep missing the point over and over?

Kaga says that Sigurd is ultimately a very naive guy, and had he been more competent, he'd have been able to avert the tragedy.

Sigurd being born in the noble house of Chalphy, had the educations nobles would go through, but still incapable of recognizing a Brand. Why? Because Kaga made Sigurd be overly naive on purpose so that he doesn't figure everything out. So that he keeps going and doing things, and ultimately just leading him to the tragedy. 

I have been spelling it out for you, but you are constantly trying to wave it off as conjecture and other nonsense using logical fallacies.

It's right there. By all logical sense, its right there.

[Jotari]

44 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

The Isaach case is that there was a huge public outcry that resulted in Grannvale having no choice but to wage the war.

And you think there wouldn't have been public outcry for the completely unprovoked Verdane attack that spat on a peace treaty and kidnapped their nobility.

Except everything Sigurd indicated is that he is going for Adean.

No matter how you look at it, Sigurd only had to extract Adean out and retreat back to the home base and then mount a defense. But he instead went and started to keep his attack going till he conquered Verdane. He didn't need to, but he did. He ended up ultimately doing something that only caused Augustria to launch a war against them, forcing Sigurd to once again attack back, conquering Augustria and ultimately pissing of Eldigan and Sigurd being unable to explain his actions.

Alright, so why did Sigurd keep going then? The game gives us no explanation. I've already said that if Sigurd has any flaw it's that he's just too damn effective at war. Given how Grannvale subjected Isaach and richly rewarded Sigurd for invading Verdane, I think the likely explanation is that they told him to keep going. What I don't think the explanation is, based on what we see of Sigurd's character, is that he's a blood thirsty psychopath who reviled in the suffering of Verdane.

Allow me to ask you something. 

A random soldier notices that Mareeta and Galzus possess the "Mark of Od" correct?

Yes, I was the one that alerted you to that point to help you out.

And when Azmur sees Deirdre, he has her reveal the Brand, which he notes is Mark of Naga. 

Yes, we know he specifically sees it, we don't know is Sigurd does.

The markings are able to be identified because they are all in different shapes and forms. All Brands are ultimately in unique shapes that allow for clear identification, even if they are not distinctly shown to us. Anyone reading can get the idea that they are Brands, but distinct in appearance that allows them to be identified.

Yes, I never claimed they were all unique nor that they couldn't be identified. What I claim is how easily they can be identified. I have no problem believing the King of Grannvale would have issue recognizing the mark of Naga. That mark of Od? Perhaps it's a particular distinctive as far as Brands go. Or perhaps because it's significantly larger than Deirdre's brand. Compare how different Chrom and Lucina's brands are.

So your argument of desiring proof is already met with in-game text. 

Proof that they can be distinguished, not that Sigurd can distinguish Deirdre's brand when he has no prior reason to suspect she has Naga blood.

And by this point in time, everyone knows what the Brand of Naga looks like, as it would no doubt be the Brand of the Exalt. Like, look at Tiki's very circlet that she wears. It's shaped as Naga's Brand. 

How do you know. Do you have an image of Naga's brand from Genealogy of the Holy War or Thracia 776?

Oh yes, because Zelgius is oh so incapable of disguising his voice or sounding different using his tones under a thick helmet, right? Despite how he should by all means be in disguise as the Black Knight, right? 

Just like it's so impossible that Deirdre had sex with a circlet on or that in the throws of passion Sigurd never stopped to examine her forehead with a magnifying glass?

Oh wow. Let's see.

A villager and Azmur notes the Brand of Naga on Kurth's daughter. Kaga explicitly mentions that Sigurd is very naive, and had he been more competent, things could have been avoided. Gee, I wonder what this means? Maybe it means that Sigurd is made to be dumb enough to not realize a Brand when he should have. You are completely and utterly missing the entire point of the argument.

Naga saying Sigurd is naieve doesn't mean Sigurd is naieve. That is the entire point of the argument. I disagree with Naga's comment. If Sigurd was meant to have been stupid enough to not be able to distinguish the brand, then there would have been a scene of him seeing the brand and not being able to distinquish it. That is what is needed to convey that plot element. Instead, the game says absolutely nothing about whether Sigurd even saw the brand.

If Sigurd had been competent as a noble and knew what the Brand meant, he would have avoided all of this. Sigurd not recognizing the Brand of Naga is Sigurd's proof of incompetence and naivete. Like, seriously, how do you keep missing the point over and over?

I get your point, it's just based on conjecture as there's no evidence in the game that Sigurd saw the brand and couldn't detect it. If that's what the story was meant to convey, there would have been.

Kaga says that Sigurd is ultimately a very naive guy, and had he been more competent, he'd have been able to avert the tragedy.

Yes, I read the interview.

Sigurd being born in the noble house of Chalphy, had the educations nobles would go through, but still incapable of recognizing a Brand. Why? Because Kaga made Sigurd be overly naive on purpose so that he doesn't figure everything out. So that he keeps going and doing things, and ultimately just leading him to the tragedy. 

You're still using the word naive wrong. Naivety does not mean not knowing something. It means lacking in worldly wisdom and innocently believing what ever they're told. If Sigurd did recognize the brand and yet still didn't put 2 and 2 together, then he would be naive, because he would have had the information and not been able to figure it out. Sigurd not recognizing the brand means he's stupid, uneducated, blind and half a dozen other things. But none of them are naivety.

I have been spelling it out for you, but you are constantly trying to wave it off as conjecture and other nonsense using logical fallacies.

That's because it is conjecture. Show me proof.

It's right there. By all logical sense, its right there.

In you're opinion. Give me a quote from the game. If this is what the game so obviously wanted the player to think, then it should be easy. Sigurd's personal failing should be on clear display instead of being based on a choice he never made based on three assumptions that the game never indicates. If you believe this is true, then you must also believe Genealogy of the Holy War has some of the worst writing (or, more precisely, plotting) in the series as it's intentionally hiding crucial information from the audience for no good reason.

It wouldn't be hard to take the events and craft the exact narrative you're trying to great. Have some one warn Sigurd about retaliating against Verdane. Have him notice the mark and think nothing of it. Have him display a lax attitude to Deirdre's safety. Taking the same events and pinning the blame on Sigurd wouldn't be difficult. The issue is that the game doesn't do any of that. Not once, at any point. You can only argue about what actually happens. Not what you assume should or did happen.

 

Edited February 22, 2019 by Jotari

[omegaxis1]

9 minutes ago, Jotari said:

snip

Your arguments still going, but I'm going to bring up about why it works both ways.

You ask or say that there should be proof or indication in the game of this being explicit. But that isn't the case. 

Why?

This actually links to my overall gripe with Genealogy and ways Kaga writes things overall.

He doesn't end up conveying what he intends to give. His story ultimately has to be read and examined with a microscope and read many things between the lines to figure out why and how things work. 

The persecution of the Lopto cult? He tells us this in a village conversation, Manfroy exposition of the plan, and Lewyn and Seliph's conversation in Yied Ruins. Despite how the narrative is supposed to make us question persecution, he doesn't show the Lopto cult as anything but irredeemable scumbags that should all be exterminated. And he tells us that Arvis has faced persecution, but we never see it, and we're forced to make many inferences over why that's the case.

Sigurd is intended to be someone that is naive, but Kaga ends up needing us to once again, really look and try to see where and how Sigurd messed up and what made him naive or incompetent, or how him being competent would render him able to avert tragedy.

We've been going around in circles, giving several indications that can very well be viable, but as you said, it's still ultimately conjectured, because Kaga only tells us things, but never shows us. So you and I are going to be debating about this to absolutely no end, but any proof we try to give, no matter how strong it could be, or how logical it could make sense, would still fall under conjecture, not solid evidence.

This also goes about why it makes no sense for Sigurd and Arvis to be so stupid to miss the signs that should have been obvious. Because Kaga made Genealogy to be this plot-driven story, and thus character HAS to act in a certain way, rather than it being actually in character or make sense for their status or station, to make it so the plot moves forward. Hence why Deirdre had this weird chance meeting and somehow had even met Adean along the way. It doesn't make sense, and we are told things, but the game doesn't back up what it tries to convey.

[Jotari]

7 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Your arguments still going, but I'm going to bring up about why it works both ways.

You ask or say that there should be proof or indication in the game of this being explicit. But that isn't the case. 

Why?

This actually links to my overall gripe with Genealogy and ways Kaga writes things overall.

He doesn't end up conveying what he intends to give. His story ultimately has to be read and examined with a microscope and read many things between the lines to figure out why and how things work. 

The persecution of the Lopto cult? He tells us this in a village conversation, Manfroy exposition of the plan, and Lewyn and Seliph's conversation in Yied Ruins. Despite how the narrative is supposed to make us question persecution, he doesn't show the Lopto cult as anything but irredeemable scumbags that should all be exterminated. And he tells us that Arvis has faced persecution, but we never see it, and we're forced to make many inferences over why that's the case.

Sigurd is intended to be someone that is naive, but Kaga ends up needing us to once again, really look and try to see where and how Sigurd messed up and what made him naive or incompetent, or how him being competent would render him able to avert tragedy.

We've been going around in circles, giving several indications that can very well be viable, but as you said, it's still ultimately conjectured, because Kaga only tells us things, but never shows us. So you and I are going to be debating about this to absolutely no end, but any proof we try to give, no matter how strong it could be, or how logical it could make sense, would still fall under conjecture, not solid evidence.

This also goes about why it makes no sense for Sigurd and Arvis to be so stupid to miss the signs that should have been obvious. Because Kaga made Genealogy to be this plot-driven story, and thus character HAS to act in a certain way, rather than it being actually in character or make sense for their status or station, to make it so the plot moves forward. Hence why Deirdre had this weird chance meeting and somehow had even met Adean along the way. It doesn't make sense, and we are told things, but the game doesn't back up what it tries to convey.

Genealogy has a lot of contrivences (just look at how convenient the holy blood aura is which appeared on Deirdre for Azmur and Althena for Finn (who doesn't even have holy blood) yet no where else that it might have been useful like on Sigurd for Deirdre), particularly for the sake of gameplay (like why does Langbolt keep Byron alive for a over year when his very being alive risks dismantling the entire conspiracy? Basically just so Sigurd can get Tyrfing). And I admit, Sigurd not seeing Deirdre's brand is in itself a contrivence. It does beg belief. But ultimately there is nothing in game to suggest he did. Therefore I don't believe we can work under the assumption that he did. l, and then make several other assumptions to come to a conclusion of his character. Maybe that's the route Kaga wanted to go, but he ultimately failed as the game gives 0 indication. If the game wanted to depict him as needlessly rash when it comes to battle, then we could have got an indication  that Grannvale was displeased with his actions  or that he was doing them without consent, but instead we get the opposite. If the game wanted to depict the capture of Deirdre as his fault instead of hers then Manfroy would have attacked the castle. We don't see Sigurd seeing the brand. We get no suggestions he's not book smart. We don't even get to see the brand ourselves. Are your suggestions impossible? No, not at all. But they also aren't supported by the game, so I can only deem them fanfiction or headcanon. If one wanted to make Sigurd's story one of personal failing it wouldn't be difficult (and maybe they will if the game is remade), but based on what we actually have, this narrative and any evidence that can be drawn from it didn't.

Edited February 23, 2019 by Jotari

[omegaxis1]

5 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Genealogy has a lot of contrivences (just look at how convenient the holy blood aura is which appeared on Deirdre for Azmur and Althena for Finn (who doesn't even have holy blood) yet no where else that it might have been useful like on Sigurd for Deirdre), particularly for the sake of gameplay. And I admit, Sigurd not seeing Deirdre's brand is in itself a contrivence. It does beg belief. But ultimately there is nothing in game to suggest he did. Therefore I don't believe we can work under the assumption that he did. l, and then make several other assumptions to come to a conclusion of his character. Maybe that's the route Kaga wanted to go, but he ultimately failed as the game gives 0 indication. If the game wanted to depict him as needlessly rash when it comes to battle, then we could have got an indication  that Grannvale was displeased with his actions  or that he was doing them without consent, but instead we get the opposite. If the game wanted to depict the capture of Deirdre as his fault instead of hers then Manfroy would have attacked the castle. We don't see Sigurd seeing the brand. We get no suggestions he's not book smart. We don't even get to see the brand ourselves. Are your suggestions impossible? No, not at all. But they also aren't supported by the game, so I can only deem them fanfiction or headcanon. If one wanted to make Sigurd's story one of personal failing it wouldn't be difficult (and maybe they will if the game is remade), but based on what we actually have, this narrative and any evidence that can be drawn from it didn't.

Kaga's style of story structure ultimately goes with the case of "Death of an Author" where regardless of what Kaga's intentions are, he made his game where he left it up to the players to decide what's what. He may have intended it that Sigurd is a reckless fool that should have seen things coming if he had been more competent, but the game didn't fully convey what he wanted, thus, we have been arguing for a while about whether Sigurd did mess up or not. He may have intended for Arvis to be this tragic character that is very much like a protag himself, but it came off seeming like Arvis is an idiot for not seeing things coming. Like Arvis telling Julia that he never realized Manfroy's plan until it was too late. 

Just as how logically, it doesn't make sense for Sigurd to not be able to recognize the Brand, but somehow, he did not recognize it, or he never saw the Brand (what, was forehead kisses not allowed), etc.

ANd I do admit that the game doesn't really make it clear that Sigurd is upsetting Grannvalle until a curveball is thrown in that Sigurd is part of a coup somehow. Seems almost weird. If he had been disobeying orders and making the nation upset, that would make him being branded a traitor more believable because they have reason to believe that he is someone that is a warmonger.

[Jotari]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

Kaga's style of story structure ultimately goes with the case of "Death of an Author" where regardless of what Kaga's intentions are, he made his game where he left it up to the players to decide what's what. He may have intended it that Sigurd is a reckless fool that should have seen things coming if he had been more competent, but the game didn't fully convey what he wanted, thus, we have been arguing for a while about whether Sigurd did mess up or not. He may have intended for Arvis to be this tragic character that is very much like a protag himself, but it came off seeming like Arvis is an idiot for not seeing things coming. Like Arvis telling Julia that he never realized Manfroy's plan until it was too late. 

Just as how logically, it doesn't make sense for Sigurd to not be able to recognize the Brand, but somehow, he did not recognize it, or he never saw the Brand (what, was forehead kisses not allowed), etc.

ANd I do admit that the game doesn't really make it clear that Sigurd is upsetting Grannvalle until a curveball is thrown in that Sigurd is part of a coup somehow. Seems almost weird. If he had been disobeying orders and making the nation upset, that would make him being branded a traitor more believable because they have reason to believe that he is someone that is a warmonger.

Sigurd upsetting Grannvale is the thing that would be the hardest to alter into the narrative as Sigurd was very effectively expanding their lands and many nobles were becoming rich by abusing their positions in Agustria. The thing about Grannvale is that unlike most Fire Emblems, they're not the good guys just because Sigurd comes from there. He was being used as a pawn and he even knew it in chapter 3 but there was little he could do while still staying loyal to his King. He pleased Langbolt a d Realtor a great deal I'm sure, in fact it's the very fact that he did such a good job that he had to die as he became a political challenge himself.

[Earth Worm Jim]

Creators are not infallible even though a creator can intend to make a situation appear one way doesn't mean that they succeeded in doing so. So the first question one should ask themselves when the creators talk about their intent is "was the creator successful in conveying that intent?"

 

The reason I say this is because looking at Genealogy, I think that  Kaga intended to make Sigurd appear overly naive and even stupid, but he failed to convey that. Instead, he put Sigurd into an impossible situation where he had very little power and knowledge to act on. But Kaga didn't give Sigurd enough power for his decisions to make much of a difference. The only real way he could have avoided everything would have been if he took Deidre and booked it from Granvale altogether.

 

On the flip side though, Kaga intended for Arvis's situation to be unavoidable, but it isn't. Because Kaga gave Arvis too much power, too much information, To the point where Arvis could have prevented most of not all of the bad things that happened. But he failed to do so not because he couldn't but because he constantly and selfishly puts himself before others. It's not believable that Arvis would have suffered discrimination because of his Loptuous blood because he has way too much power. In fact, knowing his past it seems more like if people avoided him it was because of his personality. He doesn't come across as an approachable person. And him murdering people who speak the truth about his mother wouldn't make people enthusiastic to interact with him. In fact he'd likely get a bad reputation for it. 

Edited February 23, 2019 by earth_worm_jim