FE4 Fan Special Roundtable/Interview Translation

[omegaxis1]

3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Sigurd upsetting Grannvale is the thing that would be the hardest to alter into the narrative as Sigurd was very effectively expanding their lands and many nobles were becoming rich by abusing their positions in Agustria. The thing about Grannvale is that unlike most Fire Emblems, they're not the good guys just because Sigurd comes from there. He was being used as a pawn and he even knew it in chapter 3 but there was little he could do while still staying loyal to his King. He pleased Langbolt a d Realtor a great deal I'm sure, in fact it's the very fact that he did such a good job that he had to die as he became a political challenge himself.

I dunno. Cause the thing about that is that Filat mentions otherwise in Chapter 2:

Quote

Filat:
“There’s been some nasty rumours making the rounds in the Royal Court. It’s going around that Prince Cuan of Lenster, King Eltshan of Nodion, and yourself are conspiring against His Majesty. They say that explains why you’re hiding the Prince of Isaac.”

Sigurd:
“That’s absurd! Who could’ve started such a story!?”

Filat:
“Duke Reptor and Lord Langobalt.”

Sigurd:
“I see… Those two have had it in for my father for some time, but this has gone far enough.”

Filat:
“I believe they’re put off by the way Prince Kurth goes to Lord Byron for everything. Once the prince ascends the throne, those two are sure to be ousted from their posts, and that has them worried. At any rate, I’d watch your back.”

Thing is that even if Verdane and Augustria were the ones that violated the pact, there are cases where the ones being attacked would not want to have the war stay and end things peacefully. So attempts to settle things like that would be attempted, but if Sigurd goes off and conquers them, it defeats the purpose.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

I dunno. Cause the thing about that is that Filat mentions otherwise in Chapter 2:

Thing is that even if Verdane and Augustria were the ones that violated the pact, there are cases where the ones being attacked would not want to have the war stay and end things peacefully. So attempts to settle things like that would be attempted, but if Sigurd goes off and conquers them, it defeats the purpose.

That's Reptor and Langbolt setting up their betrayal gambit of Sigurd. Like I said, he was being played as a pawn and was aware of it yet could do little about it as ultimately he was following direct orders from his king. Sigurd didn't want to occupy Agustria and fight his best friend. In fact he wanted to pull out and allow Agustria to govern themselves. Reptor and Langbolt basically told him to conquer Agustria and then punished him for it. As I said earlier, the conflict in Chapter 3 between Sigurd and Eldigan is a Camus vs Camus situation. Both men were following orders they didn't agree with yet couldn't disobey without turning on their country.

[Interdimensional Observer]

19 hours ago, Jotari said:

(if you really think about it, the Eldigan Sigurd conflict is a case of Camus vs Camus);

 

Despite not having played the game (which can now happen since I've learned the arts of emulation and just liberated Castle Altea in FE3 Book 1), I did read the script here on SF a few times and noticed this before. I can't find the exact post where I mentioned this though- or at least I think I recall making a post mentioning this (is it possible to search one's posting history?).

It certainly is an interesting situation though. I don't think any lord has had this before. Micaiah is only semi-Camus, which is itself an interesting situation.

 

3 hours ago, earth_worm_jim said:

Creators are not infallible even though a creator can intend to make a situation appear one way doesn't mean that they succeeded in doing so. So the first question one should ask themselves when the creators talk about their intent is "was the creator successful in conveying that intent?"

 

The reason I say this is because looking at Genealogy, I think that  Kaga intended to make Sigurd appear overly naive and even stupid, but he failed to convey that. Instead, he put Sigurd into an impossible situation where he had very little power and knowledge to act on. But Kaga didn't give Sigurd enough power for his decisions to make much of a difference. The only real way he could have avoided everything would have been if he took Deidre and booked it from Granvale altogether.

And in this case, I think Kaga failing worked out for the better. Not to say having a stumbling fool as a main character is a bad idea, but putting a lord in an impossible situation, as opposed to always triumphing can be just as good.

 

33 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Reptor and Langbolt basically told him to conquer Agustria and then punished him for it

And as I pointed out before, Manfroy wanted war between Agustria and Grannvale and told Chagall to go for it. He controlled Chagall, he controlled a trio of Dukes in Grannvale while killing off the capable Prince, a fourth Duke, forcing the fifth to flee for his life, and the sixth wasn't home at the time and probably powerless I guess. In other words, Grannvale couldn't even if the enfeebled Azmur or Kurth wanted no war, stop it, since Manfroy is the puppet master of all and will get what he wants. And he wants a continental Loptyr Empire. Sigurd just so happened to be the agent.

Edited February 23, 2019 by Interdimensional Observer

[Troykv]

5 hours ago, earth_worm_jim said:

Creators are not infallible even though a creator can intend to make a situation appear one way doesn't mean that they succeeded in doing so. So the first question one should ask themselves when the creators talk about their intent is "was the creator successful in conveying that intent?"

 

The reason I say this is because looking at Genealogy, I think that  Kaga intended to make Sigurd appear overly naive and even stupid, but he failed to convey that. Instead, he put Sigurd into an impossible situation where he had very little power and knowledge to act on. But Kaga didn't give Sigurd enough power for his decisions to make much of a difference. The only real way he could have avoided everything would have been if he took Deidre and booked it from Granvale altogether.

 

On the flip side though, Kaga intended for Arvis's situation to be unavoidable, but it isn't. Because Kaga gave Arvis too much power, too much information, To the point where Arvis could have prevented most of not all of the bad things that happened. But he failed to do so not because he couldn't but because he constantly and selfishly puts himself before others. It's not believable that Arvis would have suffered discrimination because of his Loptuous blood because he has way too much power. In fact, knowing his past it seems more like if people avoided him it was because of his personality. He doesn't come across as an approachable person. And him murdering people who speak the truth about his mother wouldn't make people enthusiastic to interact with him. In fact he'd likely get a bad reputation for it. 

It's quite interesting how this situations ends up happening...

The "naiver" of the two end up getting in the most difficult sittuation to properly adress (his only "easy" ticket to a peaceful life would need a not so smart people to figure out the relationship between Deirdre and everything else in the world).

Arvis' situation became completely unavoidable in the very end, after he became Emperor; but during the beginning; as you explained; he was mostly an unpopular boy that was only really liked for certain people, and Manfroy would take advantage of it; to convince him to "create a better world"... Not exactly an unavoidable fate, but his backstory as a violent person and his fear of being crucified because of his mother's evil blood would be just enough to make him connect with the Loptyr Sect; specially someone as cunning as Manfroy.

Edited February 23, 2019 by Troykv

[Earth Worm Jim]

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

As I said earlier, the conflict in Chapter 3 between Sigurd and Eldigan is a Camus vs Camus situation. Both men were following orders they didn't agree with yet couldn't disobey without turning on their country.

I agree, Sigurd, entire situation is the answer to the question "what would happen if you made Camus a Lord?".

 

7 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

And in this case, I think Kaga failing worked out for the better. Not to say having a stumbling fool as a main character is a bad idea, but putting a lord in an impossible situation, as opposed to always triumphing can be just as good.

I'd actually argue that Kaga failing worked out so well because ultimately it made Sigurd more of an approachable and therefore likable character, and got rid of a potentially frustrating sceneario. Because I can't tell you how frustrating it is to play a game with a stumbling fool who actively makes nothing but bad  decisions, despite having the option not to. It's not fun.

 

4 hours ago, Troykv said:

The "naiver" of the two end up getting in the most difficult sittuation to properly adress (his only "easy" ticket to a peaceful life would need a not so smart people to figure out the relationship between Deirdre and everything else in the world).

You what's really ironic about Sigurd's situation is ultimately Sigurd's actions are also what set into motion the events and criteria that would ultimately save Grannvale and defeat Manfroy. Him marrying Deirdre not only deterred Manfroy for a time, but it also set into motion the events that would result in Manfroy's defeat. Seliph being born first made it so that Julius wasn't the true heir to the throne at the time he was born. Not only that but Deirdre being married and that marriage being consummated when Arvis meets her also in some ways invalidates the marriage between Deirdre and Arvis (them being siblings invalidates it even more) as it calls into question her state of mind at the time of their marriage. It also makes Arvis a upsurper as his authority over Grannvale is contingent to his marriage to Deidre and Julius's own claim. But because of Seliph's existence Julius's claim isn't as strong. This is what made the liberation army legitimate in the eyes of history, as it wasn't a revolution but rather simply deposing a upsurper and his evil cult.

 

4 hours ago, Troykv said:

Arvis' situation became completely unavoidable in the very end, after he became Emperor; but during the beginning; as you explained; he was mostly an unpopular boy that was only really liked for certain people, and Manfroy would take advantage of it; to convince him to "create a better world"... Not exactly an unavoidable fate, but his backstory as a violent person and his fear of being crucified because of his mother's evil blood would be just enough to make him connect with the Loptyr Sect; specially someone as cunning as Manfroy.

Basically, Sigurd's road to hell was more a slope that was pushed down. While Arvis paved his road to hell, and then reached the downward slope and subsequently rolling down it. Thing is both Arvis and Sigurd are naive, they're just naive in different ways.

 

Yeah, even more interesting to point out is the fact that in reality, Seliph and Sigurd actually don't have a whole lot in common in terms of their story. Seliph is not Sigurd's foil, he's Arvis's foil. They have pretty similar pasts, what with both of their mothers running off with another man and that fact shaping their lives, with the both of their fathers being people that society looked down on, and both growing up as orphans from a young age. Their real difference lies in their personalities and how they reacted to it, Arvis internalized everything, building up a Oedipus complex, pushing others away. Building up an image in his head on how he believed things really were and reacting violently towards anyone who dares to dispel the illusion. Building himself up in an image of power and ruthlessness and gaining an arrogance and overconfidence in himself. Meanwhile Seliph is far more humble, he doesn't see himself as the only true person who can bring about peace. Instead he seeks out like minded individuals. He tends to take the moral highground. He doesn't seem to internalize everything, instead he accepted the reality of his situation . Only acting out in anger when he finally meets the person who caused his situation. And really I half expected Seliph to basically to give Arvis a massive speech about how his actions caused the suffering of those around him but especially Seliph himself. How he made another child suffer through the same situation that he went through, how Arvis ultimately isn't any different from the father that he hates so much. I feel that that was a scene that was really needed and I was confused that we never got it, though knowing now how Kaga felt about Arvis now, it explains why.

Edited February 23, 2019 by earth_worm_jim

[Jotari]

44 minutes ago, earth_worm_jim said:

Yeah, even more interesting to point out is the fact that in reality, Seliph and Sigurd actually don't have a whole lot in common in terms of their story. Seliph is not Sigurd's foil, he's Arvis's foil. They have pretty similar pasts, what with both of their mothers running off with another man and that fact shaping their lives, with the both of their fathers being people that society looked down on, and both growing up as orphans from a young age. Their real difference lies in their personalities and how they reacted to it, Arvis internalized everything, building up a Oedipus complex, pushing others away. Building up an image in his head on how he believed things really were and reacting violently towards anyone who dares to dispel the illusion. Building himself up in an image of power and ruthlessness and gaining an arrogance and overconfidence in himself. Meanwhile Seliph is far more humble, he doesn't see himself as the only true person who can bring about peace. Instead he seeks out like minded individuals. He tends to take the moral highground. He doesn't seem to internalize everything, instead he accepted the reality of his situation . Only acting out in anger when he finally meets the person who caused his situation. And really I half expected Seliph to basically to give Arvis a massive speech about how his actions caused the suffering of those around him but especially Seliph himself. How he made another child suffer through the same situation that he went through, how Arvis ultimately isn't any different from the father that he hates so much. I feel that that was a scene that was really needed and I was confused that we never got it, though knowing now how Kaga felt about Arvis now, it explains why.

That's a really interesting comparison. And I wouldn't be surprised if it was intentional. This is basically exactly what Sigurd says to Seliph in the secret scene after defeating Alvis. Cautioning him about crediting victory only to himself, being too distant from other people and loosing sight of what's really important. All the mistakes Alvis ultimately made. Although the fact that Seliph never actually was in any danger of committing any of these errors (as far as I can recall) kinds of makes it a null point. Having Seliph momentarily slip and go more ballistic towards Alvis would have justified ghost daddy's words a bit more.

Edited February 23, 2019 by Jotari

[Jedi]

On 2/17/2019 at 1:41 AM, garmmy said:

Hi! I recently translated the roundtable/interview that was in the FE4 Fan Special book (9784893665805), between Hijiku Tsukamoto, Ken Heuga, and Mamoru Satonaka, with comments by Shouzou Kaga, here:

https://garmtranslations.wordpress.com/2019/02/13/fire-emblem-genealogy-of-the-holy-war-fan-special-roundtable-discussion/

Someone suggested I post about it here too and I almost forgot I had an account here haha.

It was published back in 1996 so a lot of stuff is a bit old news, but hopefully there are still some interesting tidbits in there as well!
Also, feel free to point out if anything sounds weird/mistranslated and I can look into it a bit more; it's been years since I actually played FE4 so I'm a bit rusty on the mechanics and gameplay I think.

This is awesome! Also I didn't realize you were around here Garmmy! It's me Jedisupersonic on twitter. 

[omegaxis1]

5 hours ago, earth_worm_jim said:

Yeah, even more interesting to point out is the fact that in reality, Seliph and Sigurd actually don't have a whole lot in common in terms of their story. Seliph is not Sigurd's foil, he's Arvis's foil. They have pretty similar pasts, what with both of their mothers running off with another man and that fact shaping their lives, with the both of their fathers being people that society looked down on, and both growing up as orphans from a young age. Their real difference lies in their personalities and how they reacted to it, Arvis internalized everything, building up a Oedipus complex, pushing others away. Building up an image in his head on how he believed things really were and reacting violently towards anyone who dares to dispel the illusion. Building himself up in an image of power and ruthlessness and gaining an arrogance and overconfidence in himself. Meanwhile Seliph is far more humble, he doesn't see himself as the only true person who can bring about peace. Instead he seeks out like minded individuals. He tends to take the moral highground. He doesn't seem to internalize everything, instead he accepted the reality of his situation . Only acting out in anger when he finally meets the person who caused his situation. And really I half expected Seliph to basically to give Arvis a massive speech about how his actions caused the suffering of those around him but especially Seliph himself. How he made another child suffer through the same situation that he went through, how Arvis ultimately isn't any different from the father that he hates so much. I feel that that was a scene that was really needed and I was confused that we never got it, though knowing now how Kaga felt about Arvis now, it explains why.

However, it should be noted that the environment that they had grown up in was very much different. Despite similar circumstances, Arvis was persecuted because of what happened with his parents, whereas Seliph was growing up and by the time he was understanding the world, Lewyn and the others had already started having Sigurd be viewed as a hero and that Seliph was the Scion of Light. Seliph was also raised by Shannan and Oifey, with Adean being a mother figure to him, similar to how Eyvel and Lachesis were Leif's mother figures, while Arvis had to raise himself by the time he was 7, and even before that, the relationship with his parents being so unhealthy that left Arvis having to grow up through that negativity. 

13 hours ago, Jotari said:

That's Reptor and Langbolt setting up their betrayal gambit of Sigurd. Like I said, he was being played as a pawn and was aware of it yet could do little about it as ultimately he was following direct orders from his king. Sigurd didn't want to occupy Agustria and fight his best friend. In fact he wanted to pull out and allow Agustria to govern themselves. Reptor and Langbolt basically told him to conquer Agustria and then punished him for it. As I said earlier, the conflict in Chapter 3 between Sigurd and Eldigan is a Camus vs Camus situation. Both men were following orders they didn't agree with yet couldn't disobey without turning on their country.

 

However, perhaps the issue would actually be more to Verdane's issue. Sigurd didn't have to go wage the war, as he made sure that his primary focus was rescuing Adean. I maintain that he should have pulled back rather than continue onward with the invasion of Verdane after securing Verdane. The only reason Sigurd went to war with Verdane was that Adean was kidnapped. Perhaps the naivete can be considered that he thought if he conquered Verdane, that would stop the fighting. 

The Camus vs Camus thing was very interesting, actually.

As for the scene of Deirdre trying to get to Sigurd before getting kidnapped by Manfroy, have it that other knights were with her as an escort, rather than her being alone, which would make it more believable. And then Manfroy arrives and slaughters them all. 

And for the case of the Brand thing, yeah. How would one improve that? Should Sigurd know that its Naga's Brand, but isn't able to realize that means she's Kurth's daughter? Or does he really not know the Brand?

[Acacia Sgt]

3 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

However, it should be noted that the environment that they had grown up in was very much different. Despite similar circumstances, Arvis was persecuted because of what happened with his parents, whereas Seliph was growing up and by the time he was understanding the world, Lewyn and the others had already started having Sigurd be viewed as a hero and that Seliph was the Scion of Light. Seliph was also raised by Shannan and Oifey, with Adean being a mother figure to him, similar to how Eyvel and Lachesis were Leif's mother figures, while Arvis had to raise himself by the time he was 7, and even before that, the relationship with his parents being so unhealthy that left Arvis having to grow up through that negativity. 

Actually, Arvis still had Azelle's mother. From when he was seven to being seventeen, when she died of illness. Of course, perhaps it was too late or any influence she could impart wasn't enough.

[omegaxis1]

3 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Actually, Arvis still had Azelle's mother. From when he was seven to being seventeen, when she died of illness. Of course, perhaps it was too late or any influence she could impart wasn't enough.

He grew up in a toxic environment, and how much could Azelle's mother help at that point? Minor comfort at best, but he had to be the head of the household because he had lost his parents. 

Cigyun might have had a shitty life, but she was a shitty mother, abandoning Arvis like that. Is it any reason why he has issues with trust? His father was a scumbag, and his mother abandoned him, despite how much he needed her. Cigyun might have felt grief over, but what's interesting is that nothing was ever made clear about what Cigyun thought of Arvis. 

[Jotari]

Sigurd didn't invade Verdane purely because of Aedean. It was clearly his own personal biggest concern. But the fact that Verdane broke a peace treaty without warning and launched an invasion on his homeland is a pretty major concern too. The two countries were at war, Sigurd wasn't the one that decided that, Verdane was. Pulling back without signing a peace treaty or something would have been a very questionable tactical decision and would have made Sigurd look very selfish, as it would show that his priorities are more about his friends than protecting his country.

Seliph wasn't exactly free from persecution either, having a great big empire trying to hunt him down and murder him and all that. Though he seemingly had a better time with it than Leif.

[omegaxis1]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Sigurd didn't invade Verdane purely because of Aedean. It was clearly his own personal biggest concern. But the fact that Verdane broke a peace treaty without warning and launched an invasion on his homeland is a pretty major concern too. The two countries were at war, Sigurd wasn't the one that decided that, Verdane was. Pulling back without signing a peace treaty or something would have been a very questionable tactical decision and would have made Sigurd look very selfish, as it would show that his priorities are more about his friends than protecting his country.

1

However, it was clear based on everything Sigurd says, and even in the narration in the beginning, that Sigurd's primary concern was Adean. In fact, the only reason he went so deep into Verdane territory was that she was not in Evans Castle. Had he been able to get her there, he could have pulled back or maintained the hold on the castle or such. So when he entered into the deeper area of Verdane and had found Adean, that was the moment to pull back. 

If anything, it would have been better if someone called Sigurd out on why he had not pulled back the moment that he got Adean back.

Now yes, Verdane did violate the pact. But notice that Sigurd never once mentions anything about Verdane violating the pact and them needing to be stopped. He only ever mentions that they have Adean.

It's also an issue when Adean even tries to insist that Sigurd had not come to invade Verdane but just to rescue her.

So... why does Sigurd end up doing exactly that? Invading Verdane in the end? 

16 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Seliph wasn't exactly free from persecution either, having a great big empire trying to hunt him down and murder him and all that. Though he seemingly had a better time with it than Leif.

While yes, that is true, Seliph was still raised and cared for people that loved him. Arvis was supported by Kurth, but only in secret, so Arvis didn't even know that. Azelle's mother may have had a good relationship with Arvis, but not a way where Arvis was able to be cared for by her. Whereas Seliph grew up in a relatively positive environment and was always protected, Arvis grew up in a toxic fueled environment where he had to ultimately protect himself.

Same for Leif. Even though he had started the fight much earlier and suffered a lot, he was also protected and raised under a loving area, having Finn for a father and Lachesis/Eyvel as a mother. It's these things that makes it very much different from Arvis and why he ends up being unable to do the things Seliph can do. 

[Interdimensional Observer]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Seliph wasn't exactly free from persecution either, having a great big empire trying to hunt him down and murder him and all that. Though he seemingly had a better time with it than Leif.

Doesn't that have something to do with Sigurd harboring Shannan for all that time? (I also like to headcanon Byron being liked as an honorable adversary (unlike Lombard and Reptor) by Mariccle to fanfict up the Issach Campaign.)

Beyond this, I cannot think of details why Seliph might have had it better. Maybe Gen 2 Genealogy is just supposed to have an overall happier tone than Thracia 776 and thus skim past any suffering for Seliph? Perhaps the Dozelian imperial hand was weaker than the Freegian? Perhaps Issach was more politically unified and thus united stronger behind Shannan in resistance? Leif was only the Prince of Leonster, not the entire country, even if Leonster was the leading kingdom in the Manster District, and he lacks a Brand as well, maybe that further weakened his popular and now-defeated elite support.

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

However, it was clear based on everything Sigurd says, and even in the narration in the beginning, that Sigurd's primary concern was Adean. In fact, the only reason he went so deep into Verdane territory was that she was not in Evans Castle. Had he been able to get her there, he could have pulled back or maintained the hold on the castle or such. So when he entered into the deeper area of Verdane and had found Adean, that was the moment to pull back. 

If anything, it would have been better if someone called Sigurd out on why he had not pulled back the moment that he got Adean back.

Now yes, Verdane did violate the pact. But notice that Sigurd never once mentions anything about Verdane violating the pact and them needing to be stopped. He only ever mentions that they have Adean.

It's also an issue when Adean even tries to insist that Sigurd had not come to invade Verdane but just to rescue her.

So... why does Sigurd end up doing exactly that? Invading Verdane in the end? 

While yes, that is true, Seliph was still raised and cared for people that loved him. Arvis was supported by Kurth, but only in secret, so Arvis didn't even know that. Azelle's mother may have had a good relationship with Arvis, but not a way where Arvis was able to be cared for by her. Whereas Seliph grew up in a relatively positive environment and was always protected, Arvis grew up in a toxic fueled environment where he had to ultimately protect himself.

Same for Leif. Even though he had started the fight much earlier and suffered a lot, he was also protected and raised under a loving area, having Finn for a father and Lachesis/Eyvel as a mother. It's these things that makes it very much different from Arvis and why he ends up being unable to do the things Seliph can do. 

I never said Adean wasn't Sigurd's primary concern. In fact I said it was his biggest concern. It just wasn't his only concern. Why he continued after she was rescued (or killed) isn't explained in the game, so we can only speculate. The only assumption that makes sense to me is that he wanted to finish the war. And considering he was best Bros with the number 2 in Agustria and the Agustrian king was pro Grannvale, it wasn't a bad choice. I think if he didn't proceed deeper into Verdane then the result would have been Shagall still becoming King and declaring war on Grannvale with Manfroy whispering into his ear about how weak Grannvale is being unable to conquer Verdane. Then Sandima would really Verdane again and launch a counter counter offensive and pincer attacking Evans beging a war between an Agustrian Verdane alliance and Grannvale. Grannvale would eventually win after the main Isaach army returns, conquer and subjugate the two countries nonetheless (what exactly would happen to Sigurd in that situation is hard to tell, his best bet would to be stripped of all his titles for failure, otherwise it's a Valhalla barbecue).

Edited February 24, 2019 by Jotari

[Eryon]

Honestly I chalk all the talk on how Sigurd supposedly walked into his fate from his failings as failing at showing instead of telling.

We're supposed to see him as indeed naive and a hapless rube, but he's not. He hardly makes serious mistakes that other men in his position wouldn't make (like the already mentioned attack on Verdane, seeing as how Sigurd would have had casus belli to behead Sandima himself). It's less that he's defeated from his foul-ups and more that his enemies were better coordinated so they won. The only point against Sigurd that sticks out to me is the one on Deirdre's brand, and I chalk THAT up on the weird writing surrounding her.

TLDR Kaga tried but didn't do so.

[Earth Worm Jim]

6 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

He grew up in a toxic environment, and how much could Azelle's mother help at that point? Minor comfort at best, but he had to be the head of the household because he had lost his parents. 

Cigyun might have had a shitty life, but she was a shitty mother, abandoning Arvis like that. Is it any reason why he has issues with trust? His father was a scumbag, and his mother abandoned him, despite how much he needed her. Cigyun might have felt grief over, but what's interesting is that nothing was ever made clear about what Cigyun thought of Arvis. 

Actually, while Arvis's environment wasn't the best, Arvis did have a chance to make it better or at least to make things easier on himself. But in many ways Arvis was too busy feeling sorry for himself to really see what was going on around him. For instance Cigyun, she was really suffering and as soon as she had a way out she took it. It was an abusive household, and no one should havve to suffer through it. But I don't think that Arvis even though he knew that she was suffering he really didn't seem to understand why she would seek to escape it. And so he couldn't accept the idea that his mother would leave his father and him behind, despite knowing that his father treats his mother like crap. Then you have Azelle's mother who cared for Arvis, but she couldn't do much because Arvis never let her in. Ditto for Azelle himself, he loved him but Arvis never let him in. Instead he just held those around him at arm's length.

 

At some point Arvis started wallowing in despair. While his pasts explains some of his behavior, it doesn't excuse any of it. Seliph grew up literally having to hid himself because if he was found he'd be immediately killed. Seliph more so than Arvis had to be extra careful on who he trusted.

[Jotari]

36 minutes ago, Earth Worm Jim said:

Actually, while Arvis's environment wasn't the best, Arvis did have a chance to make it better or at least to make things easier on himself. But in many ways Arvis was too busy feeling sorry for himself to really see what was going on around him. For instance Cigyun, she was really suffering and as soon as she had a way out she took it. It was an abusive household, and no one should havve to suffer through it. But I don't think that Arvis even though he knew that she was suffering he really didn't seem to understand why she would seek to escape it. And so he couldn't accept the idea that his mother would leave his father and him behind, despite knowing that his father treats his mother like crap. Then you have Azelle's mother who cared for Arvis, but she couldn't do much because Arvis never let her in. Ditto for Azelle himself, he loved him but Arvis never let him in. Instead he just held those around him at arm's length.

 

At some point Arvis started wallowing in despair. While his pasts explains some of his behavior, it doesn't excuse any of it. Seliph grew up literally having to hid himself because if he was found he'd be immediately killed. Seliph more so than Arvis had to be extra careful on who he trusted.

It's almost like they're opposites (like any good foil). Alvis had security, but no love, Seliph had love, but no security.

[Earth Worm Jim]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

It's almost like they're opposites (like any good foil). Alvis had security, but no love, Seliph had love, but no security.

Well Arvis received love but he chose not accept it, Seliph on the other hand sought love.

[Jotari]

45 minutes ago, Earth Worm Jim said:

Well Arvis received love but he chose not accept it, Seliph on the other hand sought love.

Similarly Seliph probably could have chosen to have more security by completely abandoning any crusade to take down the empire.

[omegaxis1]

14 hours ago, Jotari said:

I never said Adean wasn't Sigurd's primary concern. In fact I said it was his biggest concern. It just wasn't his only concern. Why he continued after she was rescued (or killed) isn't explained in the game, so we can only speculate. The only assumption that makes sense to me is that he wanted to finish the war. And considering he was best Bros with the number 2 in Agustria and the Agustrian king was pro Grannvale, it wasn't a bad choice. I think if he didn't proceed deeper into Verdane then the result would have been Shagall still becoming King and declaring war on Grannvale with Manfroy whispering into his ear about how weak Grannvale is being unable to conquer Verdane. Then Sandima would really Verdane again and launch a counter counter offensive and pincer attacking Evans beging a war between an Agustrian Verdane alliance and Grannvale. Grannvale would eventually win after the main Isaach army returns, conquer and subjugate the two countries nonetheless (what exactly would happen to Sigurd in that situation is hard to tell, his best bet would to be stripped of all his titles for failure, otherwise it's a Valhalla barbecue).

That is one possible scenario and such. But what I am saying is that he had every choice to pull back. He had a choice to retreat after securing Adean. So why didn't he? If the game never explores this, try to treat it as a scenario where Sigurd really did mess up. He could have pulled back, and tried to settle things peacefully. Instead, he continued to attack, conquered Verdane, and ultimately made Augustria grow even more hostile. Now, had Sigurd pulled back, would it have been better? Or would it have been worse? Honestly, we don't know. But it's easy to think that it would have been worse to pull back, but this is a plot-driven game, forcing events to happen in a certain way. 

The thing about Sigurd is that most say that he was just caught in a huge thing that he had no control over. I say that after getting Adean and not choosing to pull back, that was his mistake that led him to more and more battles to get caught up in.

11 hours ago, Earth Worm Jim said:

Actually, while Arvis's environment wasn't the best, Arvis did have a chance to make it better or at least to make things easier on himself. But in many ways Arvis was too busy feeling sorry for himself to really see what was going on around him. For instance Cigyun, she was really suffering and as soon as she had a way out she took it. It was an abusive household, and no one should havve to suffer through it. But I don't think that Arvis even though he knew that she was suffering he really didn't seem to understand why she would seek to escape it. And so he couldn't accept the idea that his mother would leave his father and him behind, despite knowing that his father treats his mother like crap. Then you have Azelle's mother who cared for Arvis, but she couldn't do much because Arvis never let her in. Ditto for Azelle himself, he loved him but Arvis never let him in. Instead he just held those around him at arm's length.

At some point Arvis started wallowing in despair. While his pasts explains some of his behavior, it doesn't excuse any of it. Seliph grew up literally having to hid himself because if he was found he'd be immediately killed. Seliph more so than Arvis had to be extra careful on who he trusted.

7

What exactly did he had to feel good about himself? A deadbeat dad that cheated on his mom that then killed himself because he couldn't take being cheated on in return. A mom that abandoned him the moment that she got outed for having an affair with Kurth. And then the rest of his time had people persecute him for the family's affair. Also, both Arvis and Azelle loved one another. But it wasn't that he kept them at arm's length. Kaga himself went off to explain that Azelle felt pressured in Arvis's presence, because he felt out of reach, and even the case that being in Arvis's presence felt suffocating, perhaps due to Loptous's blood. 

This in turn actually goes to the case that even Azelle and perhaps Azelle's mother unintentionally persecuted him. Arvis didn't have any well off environment. He wasn't caught in self-pity. The world was really against him.

Also, the defense you mentioned in regards to Cigyun. Why didn't she stay for her son? Or why didn't she take her son with her? So she's in a toxic environment, and that gives her a pass to abandon her son like that? What did Arvis do to her? He may have been too young to fully understand what was happening, but he loved her dearly, and she must have known that. And if she had suffered, Arvis must have seen that as well and must have tried to comfort her or be there for her. But in the end, she abandoned him.

And for Seliph, this brings up something else.

If Arvis's Loptous Blood causes people (or at least Azelle) to have a suffocating feeling, what does Seliph's Naga blood do? The opposite? Make people feel more at peace? Then even more reason why they turned out so differently. And Seliph might have been targetted, he had been protected by Shannan and Oifey, and the others. And he was always made to receive love. 

[Jotari]

6 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

That is one possible scenario and such. But what I am saying is that he had every choice to pull back. He had a choice to retreat after securing Adean. So why didn't he? If the game never explores this, try to treat it as a scenario where Sigurd really did mess up. He could have pulled back, and tried to settle things peacefully. Instead, he continued to attack, conquered Verdane, and ultimately made Augustria grow even more hostile. Now, had Sigurd pulled back, would it have been better? Or would it have been worse? Honestly, we don't know. But it's easy to think that it would have been worse to pull back, but this is a plot-driven game, forcing events to happen in a certain way. 

The thing about Sigurd is that most say that he was just caught in a huge thing that he had no control over. I say that after getting Adean and not choosing to pull back, that was his mistake that led him to more and more battles to get caught up in.

The only reason you think that is because things did go wrong for Sigurd. Hindsight is 20/20. Do you think it was a mistake for Marth to keep fighting after he liberated Altea? Or Alm to keep fighting after he liberated Zofia? Or Roy after weeding out corruption in Etruria? Or Corrin for even entering Noir in Birthright to begin with? All of them continued to fight for the same reason. Because there was still a hostile threat out there that has sought to do them harm in the past and would likely do harm to them again. Sigurd's choices were really no different from those most other lords in the series often make. He's just the unlucky one to exist in a world where the deck is stacked heavily against him.

[omegaxis1]

4 minutes ago, Jotari said:

The only reason you think that is because things did go wrong for Sigurd. Hindsight is 20/20. Do you think it was a mistake for Marth to keep fighting after he liberated Altea? Or Alm to keep fighting after he liberated Zofia? Or Roy after weeding out corruption in Etruria? Or Corrin for even entering Noir in Birthright to begin with? All of them continued to fight for the same reason. Because there was still a hostile threat out there that has sought to do them harm in the past and would likely do harm to them again. Sigurd's choices were really no different from those most other lords in the series often make. He's just the unlucky one to exist in a world where the deck is stacked heavily against him.

Not necessarily. In all those situations, circumstances are not the same. Marth NEEDS to keep fighting because everyone knows that Gharnef and Medeus are running the war and they have to be stopped. Alm sent messages to Rigel, but it never bore any fruit that he was forced to command his forces to march into Rigel. Roy had to invade Bern because by this point, Bern had already gone too far after having conquered Euturia, that after liberating it, they HAD to invade Bern. And for Birthright, they had to defeat Nohr as it was the nation they were warring against by that point. Not only that, but the war with them had gone on for some time.

Really, in all those circumstances, it was an ultimatum or the enemy nation had gone too far that they had to be stopped. Verdane is not the same case. Yes, they were aggressors, but a war with them (if it can be called that), happened only recently. Efforts to negotiate for peace would still have been possible to make to avoid an all out war.

And Sigurd actually should have had every reason to stop and pull back. Yes, Verdane was a hostile threat, but after getting Adean back, Sigurd had every reason to stop, not because Adean was saved, but because he should have understood that Adean was saved by Jamke, a prince of Verdane. Yes, I am aware that when Sigurd speaks with Adean, her being saved by Jamke is not mentioned, but by all accounts, contextually speaking, Adean must have told him about it.

In such a case, being saved by Jamke means that Verdane is not all about wanting war. If Sigurd retreated back to Evans Castle and sent a message to desire peace talks, it would have made an effort. 

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Not necessarily. In all those situations, circumstances are not the same. Marth NEEDS to keep fighting because everyone knows that Gharnef and Medeus are running the war and they have to be stopped. Alm sent messages to Rigel, but it never bore any fruit that he was forced to command his forces to march into Rigel. Roy had to invade Bern because by this point, Bern had already gone too far after having conquered Euturia, that after liberating it, they HAD to invade Bern. And for Birthright, they had to defeat Nohr as it was the nation they were warring against by that point. Not only that, but the war with them had gone on for some time.

Really, in all those circumstances, it was an ultimatum or the enemy nation had gone too far that they had to be stopped. Verdane is not the same case. Yes, they were aggressors, but a war with them (if it can be called that), happened only recently. Efforts to negotiate for peace would still have been possible to make to avoid an all out war.

And Sigurd actually should have had every reason to stop and pull back. Yes, Verdane was a hostile threat, but after getting Adean back, Sigurd had every reason to stop, not because Adean was saved, but because he should have understood that Adean was saved by Jamke, a prince of Verdane. Yes, I am aware that when Sigurd speaks with Adean, her being saved by Jamke is not mentioned, but by all accounts, contextually speaking, Adean must have told him about it.

In such a case, being saved by Jamke means that Verdane is not all about wanting war. If Sigurd retreated back to Evans Castle and sent a message to desire peace talks, it would have made an effort. 

Everyone will have their own opinions of what going too far is. As a pacifist, I'd try to find a nonviolent way to resolve the issue at any point. But really, Verdane, a country with a history of conflict with Grannvale, violating a peace treaty, launching an invasion, slaughtering its citizenry and kidnapping it's nobility is pretty damn far. The onus isn't on Sigurd alone to try and sue for peace there, Verdane needs to show that they want it too as they're the ones who have been overwhelming aggressive (but they wouldn't try and get peace because the lopt sect is pulling the strings and it's exactly what they wanted). If Sigurd had just retreated, returning all the lands to Verdane and trusted they wouldn't try anything again when they've made no offer of good faith and broke the treaty in the first place, then that would be an unparalleled display of naivety, the very trait he is supposedly meant to possess.

Ultimately everything about Sigurd's actions after conquering Marpha are guess work as the game doesn't say anything on the matter, but what makes you think Sigurd didn't send offers of peace? Jamke, a prince of Verdane itself is on Sigurd's side. I don't think he would do that if Sigurd was on a crusade of death and destruction that ignored all suggestions of peaceful resolution. The Jamke recruitment conversation and his prior chewing out of Sandima suggests that Sigurd is just trying to get to the capital to talk to the King, but the king keeps on sending out troops to fight them. If Sigurd wasn't open to the idea of trying to peaceably resolve the conflict, then Jamke definitely wouldn't have joined him. Suggest Sigurd didn't try to sue for peace by all means, but I can't imagine Jamke didn't try end things peacably by attempting to send a message, or if he didn't, it's because he knew enough of the situation to know it definitely wouldn't work.

And even if Sigurd had retreated, I don't see how that would have solved anything. He basically does the same thing with Chagall and that turns into an even bigger mess. Considering Sandima and Manfroy have Verdane and Agustria completely under their sway (Sandima is even effectively ruling it at this point), retreating wouldn't have helped matters. It would have just given Sigurd and Grannvale two armies to fight on the western part of the continent. Even the King of Verdane himself things Sigurd's conquering of Verdane was sensible, outright apologizing to Sigurd when the two meet.

There's also no line about Alm sending offers of peace to Rigel in Gaiden (as far as I can see). That was added in the remake. Maybe if Genealogy gets a remake we'll see something similar here, because one way or the other, there's a gap in the story after conquering Marpha. The developers must have just expected the player to know the war is still ongoing because Verdane keeps sending troops to attack you.

Edited February 25, 2019 by Jotari

[omegaxis1]

The very fact that Jamke saved Adean proved that Verdane was not all up for invasion. 

The issue overall is the game fails to give information when it most matters. But when Sigurd gets back Adean and conquers Marpha, the way things are indicating is that Sigurd is still advancing on Verdane's capital, rather than trying to actually make peace talks. Otherwise, Batou wouldn't have doubts or wonder if Granvalle would be invading. There should have been no doubts about it. If the peace talk was there, Sigurd would have said that he would pull his forces back now that Adean is recovered, but wants to speak to Batou on why he violated the peace treaty between the two nations. But none of that is made. No envoys are indicated to have been sent. Instead, Jamke is trying to say that Sigurd is not a bad person. 

How does Jamke have any word to go by that Sigurd is not a bad person? Jamke never met Sigurd. If he has any word to go by, its Adean's, but even that isn't enough. Had some envoy been sent, it could have been proof that Sigurd was not a bad guy. But no indication of any proof being there, Batou easily goaded by Sandima to still launch an attack, only to make it easy for Sandima to assassinate Batou afterward. If he had pulled back and sent an envoy, then Batou would have been more convinced and maybe even prevented Sandima from killing him. So it's more than likely that Sigurd made no efforts for peace talks, but was still just marching to invade them. 

As I said, I feel that Sigurd's mistake was not pulling back, but pressing onward in still going to conquer Verdane. 

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

There's also no line about Alm sending offers of peace to Rigel in Gaiden (as far as I can see). That was added in the remake. Maybe if Genealogy gets a remake we'll see something similar here, because one way or the other, there's a gap in the story after conquering Marpha. The developers must have just expected the player to know the war is still ongoing because Verdane keeps sending troops to attack you.

Remakes supersede original, so of course, I'm going to be using what the remake gave. If they make a Genealogy remake, which I very much doubt, then they need to make it so that it makes sense that Sigurd made a mistake in still pressing an attack Verdane rather than pulling back. 

But then again, this is still a situation of "death of an author" where you can still interpret that no form of peace talk or effort would make a difference because Lopto Sect would ruin it, but others can say that they would have been stopped. Kaga forces players to have interpretations, but sometimes, it does cause issues with how the story is portrayed.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

The very fact that Jamke saved Adean proved that Verdane was not all up for invasion. 

The issue overall is the game fails to give information when it most matters. But when Sigurd gets back Adean and conquers Marpha, the way things are indicating is that Sigurd is still advancing on Verdane's capital, rather than trying to actually make peace talks. Otherwise, Batou wouldn't have doubts or wonder if Granvalle would be invading. There should have been no doubts about it. If the peace talk was there, Sigurd would have said that he would pull his forces back now that Adean is recovered, but wants to speak to Batou on why he violated the peace treaty between the two nations. But none of that is made. No envoys are indicated to have been sent. Instead, Jamke is trying to say that Sigurd is not a bad person. 

How does Jamke have any word to go by that Sigurd is not a bad person? Jamke never met Sigurd. If he has any word to go by, its Adean's, but even that isn't enough. Had some envoy been sent, it could have been proof that Sigurd was not a bad guy. But no indication of any proof being there, Batou easily goaded by Sandima to still launch an attack, only to make it easy for Sandima to assassinate Batou afterward. If he had pulled back and sent an envoy, then Batou would have been more convinced and maybe even prevented Sandima from killing him. So it's more than likely that Sigurd made no efforts for peace talks, but was still just marching to invade them. 

As I said, I feel that Sigurd's mistake was not pulling back, but pressing onward in still going to conquer Verdane. 

Remakes supersede original, so of course, I'm going to be using what the remake gave. If they make a Genealogy remake, which I very much doubt, then they need to make it so that it makes sense that Sigurd made a mistake in still pressing an attack Verdane rather than pulling back. 

But then again, this is still a situation of "death of an author" where you can still interpret that no form of peace talk or effort would make a difference because Lopto Sect would ruin it, but others can say that they would have been stopped. Kaga forces players to have interpretations, but sometimes, it does cause issues with how the story is portrayed.

Maybe Jamka saying Sigurd is a good person is precisely an indication that Sigurd did attempt to settle things peacefully. Just because we don't see any envoy, doesn't mean it didn't happen. It doesn't mean it did happen either. It's left ambiguous. To say definitively that Sigurd didn't send any envoys, you'd need a line about someone commenting on the fact that none were sent or Sigurd saying there's no point to that. Take Gaiden as an example, the game doesn't mention Alm sending any peace envoys, but in terms of the story, he did, the game just didn't detail that fact until the remake. Assuming Sigurd didn't try to send a peace envoy because we didn't see one, also forces one to assume Jamka didn't try resolve the situation using diplomatic means even though every single one of his lines up to that point revolves around how he wants to end the fighting.

Besides, it's all a moot point as Sigurd pulling back at that point definitely would have been a mistake. It would have left Sandima alive to counter attack and wouldn't have deterred an Agustrian assault in the slightest, (they'd already tried to invade Grannvale once already by that point).

Edited February 25, 2019 by Jotari