Alastor15243 Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 So suppose that things were like FE4 in the sense that, rather than child units having their own personal skills, they inherited their parents’ personal skills. So Charlotte!Siegbert would have Chivalry and Unmask, for example. What would this do to your pairings? I don’t know for sure, but for the sake of having fun screwing around with broken builds, I’d be tempted to marry Jakob to Felicia, then marry Dwyer, then pair up with Kana, who now has Evasive Partner, Devoted Partner and Supportive all at once, giving me +4 str/mag, +10 hit, +15 evade, and +7 def/res before even factoring in support bonuses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingle Jangle Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 Azura's kids are going to be more supportive. Ophelia will be even more of a critting machine due to Odin's skill. Peri would be more desired, Bloodthirst is that good. Same with Rinkah Orochi can give capture. Overall I think that would make the good even better. And the mediocre still the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interdimensional Observer Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 I don't have any pairings attachment, but I could see this being good with Kagero. Shuriken Mastery was practically worthless for her, yet now it could be given to a child with solid durability, making it a better skill. Shame she isn't on CQ though. Flora's Icy Blood likewise on a tanky Kana would make the skill good. And Nyx's Countercurse would make for yet a third instance of "nice deflect, wrong unit". 5 minutes ago, Jingle Jangle said: Same with Rinkah Agreed. Fiery Blood is very good, an easily triggered condition for a significant +4 Atk, it's just handicapped by being on a rather weak unit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light Strategist Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 Not got any particular ideas in mind but I know that Kana gets the biggest benefit of all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 If the children took the personal skills of their parents, I'd be even less inclined to marry Arthur off than I already am (and I'm already highly inclined to leave him unmarried as things are). Nothing else of note that I can think of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alastor15243 Posted April 19, 2019 Author Share Posted April 19, 2019 47 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said: If the children took the personal skills of their parents, I'd be even less inclined to marry Arthur off than I already am (and I'm already highly inclined to leave him unmarried as things are). Nothing else of note that I can think of. Granted, Percy’s definitely got one of the best personals, while Arthur’s is gimmicky and typecasting. But on the other hand, with Percy’s insane luck base and growth, he probably still doesn’t have to worry about getting critted, and that crit bonus would be nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 (edited) 51 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said: Granted, Percy’s definitely got one of the best personals, while Arthur’s is gimmicky and typecasting. But on the other hand, with Percy’s insane luck base and growth, he probably still doesn’t have to worry about getting critted, and that crit bonus would be nice. Gimmicky and a Useless Useful Skill, you mean. When is lowering enemy crit evade, which a huge majority of enemies tend to have low amounts of, ever useful? Simply put: It ain't. I'm not sure Percy would appreciate the Cev hit, either. Edited April 19, 2019 by Shadow Mir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alastor15243 Posted April 19, 2019 Author Share Posted April 19, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said: Gimmicky and a Useless Useful Skill, you mean. When is lowering enemy crit evade, which a huge majority of enemies tend to have low amounts of, ever useful? Simply put: It ain't. I'm not sure Percy would appreciate the Cev hit, either. Where’d you get that from? This isn’t like the morphs in FE7 where most enemies have a luck stat of 0. Plenty of enemies in Fates have enough luck to make the crit boost from Misfortunate relevant. Edited April 19, 2019 by Alastor15243 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 22 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said: Where’d you get that from? This isn’t like the morphs in FE7 where most enemies have a luck stat of 0. Plenty of enemies in Fates have enough luck to make the crit boost from Misfortunate relevant. The fact that its effect is actively detrimental to the player, but doesn't really impair enemies, among other things. Like the fact that enemies don't have Radiant Dawn levels of luck, which is what would be needed to make it relevant, and the fact that crit evade is half of your luck stat. And the fact that when it could be relevant, enemies are mostly nuking their crit evade with silvers. I ain't gonna go "ooh" or "aah" at zeroing out the crit evade of a unit that had very little, or even none, to begin with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alastor15243 Posted April 19, 2019 Author Share Posted April 19, 2019 9 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said: The fact that its effect is actively detrimental to the player, but doesn't really impair enemies, among other things. Like the fact that enemies don't have Radiant Dawn levels of luck, which is what would be needed to make it relevant, and the fact that crit evade is half of your luck stat. And the fact that when it could be relevant, enemies are mostly nuking their crit evade with silvers. I ain't gonna go "ooh" or "aah" at zeroing out the crit evade of a unit that had very little, or even none, to begin with. It reduces up to 15 crit evade. Plenty of enemies have 20 luck, which is 10 crit evade, and spear masters go beyond 15 easily between their luck and their “specialist” stat bonuses to crit and crit evade. Every single kitsune in chapter 19 of Conquest has like 20 between their stones and their luck. And bosses tend to have plenty of luck too. True, it isn’t a flat +15 to crit against everyone, but enemies have more crit evade in these games than you’re implying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said: It reduces up to 15 crit evade. Plenty of enemies have 20 luck, which is 10 crit evade, and spear masters go beyond 15 easily between their luck and their “specialist” stat bonuses to crit and crit evade. Every single kitsune in chapter 19 of Conquest has like 20 between their stones and their luck. And bosses tend to have plenty of luck too. True, it isn’t a flat +15 to crit against everyone, but enemies have more crit evade in these games than you’re implying. Kitsunes are relevant in only one chapter, and I'd be more concerned with hitting the things anyway. Especially since in general, anti-beast weapons do them in easily. Spear Masters aren't much more prominent (20 and 23 are about the only chapters with them - I don't see the need to mention 27 since it's rather trivial for a Conquest chapter). Bosses are only one unit, and a good deal of them later on tend to have high crit, meaning the risk far outweighs the reward, as it does in damn near everything involving Misfortunate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alastor15243 Posted April 19, 2019 Author Share Posted April 19, 2019 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said: Kitsunes are relevant in only one chapter, and I'd be more concerned with hitting the things anyway. Especially since in general, anti-beast weapons do them in easily. Spear Masters aren't much more prominent (20 and 23 are about the only chapters with them - I don't see the need to mention 27 since it's rather trivial for a Conquest chapter). Bosses are only one unit, and a good deal of them later on tend to have high crit, meaning the risk far outweighs the reward, as it does in damn near everything involving Misfortunate. Like I said, the enemy has to have less than 10 luck to not break even with this, and the majority of enemies have significantly more than 10. And Percy isn’t his dad. His dodge is already so high that he hardly has to worry about crits from the vast majority of enemies, and has insane bulk at any rate. For him it might as well be a 5 to 15 crit increase. Edited April 19, 2019 by Alastor15243 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 10 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said: Like I said, the enemy has to have less than 10 luck to not break even with this, and the majority of enemies have significantly more than 10. And Percy isn’t his dad. His dodge is already so high that he hardly has to worry about crits from the vast majority of enemies, and has insane bulk at any rate. For him it might as well be a 5 to 15 crit increase. And most of the enemies later on are using silver weapons, which cut into their crit evade. And while it's true Percy isn't extremely unlucky like his dad is, I still think he wouldn't exactly like the Cev hit no thanks to the negative luck modifier he's forced to take (as a Wyvern Lord, his luck cap is 26, assuming that his mother doesn't have a negative luck modifier of her own). By the by, were you assuming that the children's personal skills stayed or not? Because if not, then yeah, I don't really see it helping him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alastor15243 Posted April 19, 2019 Author Share Posted April 19, 2019 52 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said: And most of the enemies later on are using silver weapons, which cut into their crit evade. And while it's true Percy isn't extremely unlucky like his dad is, I still think he wouldn't exactly like the Cev hit no thanks to the negative luck modifier he's forced to take (as a Wyvern Lord, his luck cap is 26, assuming that his mother doesn't have a negative luck modifier of her own). By the by, were you assuming that the children's personal skills stayed or not? Because if not, then yeah, I don't really see it helping him. For the purposes of this, I’m assuming their old ones are gone. But the main reason that -5 feels so nightmarish is because Arthur has 0, which means he’s still at 0 even after dual guard and only at 5 with a bronze weapon, and he stays that way pretty much forever. There are still tons of ways to protect against critical hits if you have an actual luck stat, and again, he gets a second personal skill too, so I still think he can wind up better off with the right parent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 . . .are we really bitching about Arthur's personal skill? Assuming Percy keeps his skill, and gets his dad's skill, that's a +15 crit evade to allies in range, and -15 crit evade to enemies in range. That is busted. Combine with Charlotte for funniest results. Felicia!Siegbert becomes the best support for female Corrin on Conquest/Revelation. Caeldori doesn't care if she's hit if her mom's Setsuna, since staves will patch her up better than normal. Hana!Selike's job is to dive enemies and shave everyone else's HP. . . .and that's just what I see at a first glance. It would be interesting, for sure! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 On 4/19/2019 at 4:24 PM, Alastor15243 said: Like I said, the enemy has to have less than 10 luck to not break even with this, and the majority of enemies have significantly more than 10. And Percy isn’t his dad. His dodge is already so high that he hardly has to worry about crits from the vast majority of enemies, and has insane bulk at any rate. For him it might as well be a 5 to 15 crit increase. There's no such thing as "breaking even" when the risk vs reward algorithm is completely skewed in favor of one side - and it ain't you. Making enemies easier to crit means NOTHING when they generally have better methods for disposing of, but on the other hand, it's actually a problem for the player. Try to guess why. On 4/19/2019 at 6:25 PM, eclipse said: . . .are we really bitching about Arthur's personal skill? Assuming Percy keeps his skill, and gets his dad's skill, that's a +15 crit evade to allies in range, and -15 crit evade to enemies in range. That is busted. Combine with Charlotte for funniest results. Felicia!Siegbert becomes the best support for female Corrin on Conquest/Revelation. Caeldori doesn't care if she's hit if her mom's Setsuna, since staves will patch her up better than normal. Hana!Selike's job is to dive enemies and shave everyone else's HP. . . .and that's just what I see at a first glance. It would be interesting, for sure! In this case, the children lose their old personal skills. Which is why I'm treating Percy like he loses out. I would in fact go so far as to call him tonight's big loser. Other losers include Shiro (loses an easy to use personal for one that requires him to outlevel his support unit), Caeldori (Prodigy is good, but Perfectionist is hot garbage), Soleil (loses a damage booster for one of the most underwhelming personals this side of the dumpster fire that is Arthur's), Mitama (hers isn't good, yes, but her father's is pointless after promotion), and Ophelia. Asugi, Kiragi and Rhajat, on the other hand, are about the only winners I can think of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alastor15243 Posted April 21, 2019 Author Share Posted April 21, 2019 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said: There's no such thing as "breaking even" when the risk vs reward algorithm is completely skewed in favor of one side - and it ain't you. Making enemies easier to crit means NOTHING when they generally have better methods for disposing of, but on the other hand, it's actually a problem for the player. Try to guess why. Yes, critical isn’t a hugely reliable source of damage, but you’re acting like -5 dodge is some huge debilitating weakness. Again. It’s just -5. Nearly every unit in the game has enough luck to eliminate risk of critical hits from most enemies. If the avatar can handle a luck flaw with little consequence, taking away 5 dodge from Percy Is not going to be something he notices. And the rare crit weapon user can’t be lucktanked anyway in most circumstances. Dual guard already eliminates the -5, and attack stance can give you as much as 15 or 20 dodge. So he has a slight crit boost and his mom’s personal. I’d say there are several pairings where he comes off better than just having fortunate son. Also, regarding your response to eclipse, what the heck do you mean Noble Cause is better than Bushido? How is being better or equally leveled to your partner hard to trigger? He won’t be too far behind your army to begin with, and if you make him a guard stance fighter the issue of keeping him higher level than his partner becomes meaningless. Do you seriously think +3/-1 when support partner is injured would be better than +2/+2 and +10 crit when support partner is equal or lower level, on top of having a second personal skill? Edited April 21, 2019 by Alastor15243 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said: In this case, the children lose their old personal skills. Quote where it specifically says this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seafarer Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 On 4/20/2019 at 1:38 AM, Alastor15243 said: So suppose that things were like FE4 in the sense that, rather than child units having their own personal skills, they inherited their parents’ personal skills. So Charlotte!Siegbert would have Chivalry and Unmask, for example. What would this do to your pairings? I don’t know for sure, but for the sake of having fun screwing around with broken builds, I’d be tempted to marry Jakob to Felicia, then marry Dwyer, then pair up with Kana, who now has Evasive Partner, Devoted Partner and Supportive all at once, giving me +4 str/mag, +10 hit, +15 evade, and +7 def/res before even factoring in support bonuses. 1 hour ago, eclipse said: Quote where it specifically says this. See bold. * * * As for the topic: it probably doesn't. I barely noticed the effects of personal skills. Anyone would probably be happy to get Hinoka or Sakura as their mother, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 33 minutes ago, Seafarer said: See bold. On one hand, I sort-of see the logic in this exercise. On the other hand, it makes things far more complicated than they should be from a programming PoV, to the point where children having their own personal skills while inheriting their parents' personal skills is the more sane choice (and that's saying something). I suspect a few things on FE4's end, but I'd need to hack it to be certain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 (edited) 10 hours ago, Alastor15243 said: Yes, critical isn’t a hugely reliable source of damage, but you’re acting like -5 dodge is some huge debilitating weakness. Again. It’s just -5. Nearly every unit in the game has enough luck to eliminate risk of critical hits from most enemies. If the avatar can handle a luck flaw with little consequence, taking away 5 dodge from Percy Is not going to be something he notices. And the rare crit weapon user can’t be lucktanked anyway in most circumstances. Dual guard already eliminates the -5, and attack stance can give you as much as 15 or 20 dodge. So he has a slight crit boost and his mom’s personal. I’d say there are several pairings where he comes off better than just having fortunate son. Also, regarding your response to eclipse, what the heck do you mean Noble Cause is better than Bushido? How is being better or equally leveled to your partner hard to trigger? He won’t be too far behind your army to begin with, and if you make him a guard stance fighter the issue of keeping him higher level than his partner becomes meaningless. Do you seriously think +3/-1 when support partner is injured would be better than +2/+2 and +10 crit when support partner is equal or lower level, on top of having a second personal skill? So you're admitting that you'd have to contort your game to make up for it. And I wouldn't say there are several, let alone any parings where he winds up better off, because Misfortunate is just that damn bad. This isn't helped by the fact that most of the mothers' personals aren't very useful (I can count the ones with personals worth caring about on one hand, and two of those are royals, one of whom is not recommended as a mother for him). Because considering how bullshit his paralogue is if you wait too long, you're pretty much pressured into recruiting him early, and most of the units that I'm actively using would out-level him. Edited April 21, 2019 by Shadow Mir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X-Naut Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 7 hours ago, eclipse said: On one hand, I sort-of see the logic in this exercise. On the other hand, it makes things far more complicated than they should be from a programming PoV, to the point where children having their own personal skills while inheriting their parents' personal skills is the more sane choice (and that's saying something). I suspect a few things on FE4's end, but I'd need to hack it to be certain. A bigger point of confusion is how the inherited personals are handled. Do they retain their skill slot permanence, and do they take up an existing skill slot or generate their own new slots? And how is the Gen 3 Kana nonsense resolved? If personal skill inheritance is cumulative then Kana is carrying seven skills if kids keep their personals and four if they don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alastor15243 Posted April 21, 2019 Author Share Posted April 21, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said: So you're admitting that you'd have to contort your game to make up for it. What are you talking about? This whole time I was talking about how percy would be affected. I was never defending Arthur. I gave up on him ages ago as anything other than Percy fodder and a pairup bot because even if you can jump through the hoops to deal with his nonexistent crit resist (which I have done, on ironman to boot), he still has pretty bad speed and no reliable 1-2 range, so he’ll never be better than mediocre compared to your real heavy hitters. He’s mostly a fun gimmick as far as I’ve been able to work out. That was the entire point of your argument, was it not, that losing fortunate son and getting misfortunate and his mom’s skill would make him worse? I was arguing against that point. Edited April 21, 2019 by Alastor15243 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said: What are you talking about? This whole time I was talking about how percy would be affected. I was never defending Arthur. I gave up on him ages ago as anything other than Percy fodder and a pairup bot because even if you can jump through the hoops to deal with his nonexistent crit resist (which I have done, on ironman to boot), he still has pretty bad speed and no reliable 1-2 range, so he’ll never be better than mediocre compared to your real heavy hitters. He’s mostly a fun gimmick as far as I’ve been able to work out. That was the entire point of your argument, was it not, that losing fortunate son and getting misfortunate and his mom’s skill would make him worse? I was arguing against that point. Exactly what I meant - while Percy doesn't have nonexistent crit evade like Arthur does, assuming you gave him his dad's shitstain of a personal skill, you'd STILL have to actively play around the downside because it's that crippling. And yes, I was saying that Percy would be worse by losing his personal, regardless of what his mom gave him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 2 hours ago, X-Naut said: A bigger point of confusion is how the inherited personals are handled. Do they retain their skill slot permanence, and do they take up an existing skill slot or generate their own new slots? And how is the Gen 3 Kana nonsense resolved? If personal skill inheritance is cumulative then Kana is carrying seven skills if kids keep their personals and four if they don't. The most logical programming approach would be to give kids three "free" slots, their own personal skill, and the two parent skills. That way, kids won't be their own object (instead, they'd have a flag, which would lock two skill slots). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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