We have new info on FE16!

[Silverly]

I’m just glad to see some of the official art. Sothis looks pretty cute! 

[omegaxis1]

Wait, are they actually saying that Sothis can REWIND time? Not show visions of the future? Doesn't it violate other time mechanics in the franchise?

[Hanes]

5 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Wait, are they actually saying that Sothis can REWIND time? Not show visions of the future? Doesn't it violate other time mechanics in the franchise?

Uh Echoes exists.

[omegaxis1]

2 minutes ago, This boi uses Nino said:

Uh Echoes exists.

The Turnwheel shows visions of the future. Not actually rewinding time. It was stated in the actual story by Silque.

Quote

Silque: Be calm. What you saw in the vision is not the present. The Mother is either telling you what could be…or what once was. Her power is sight.

 

[Acacia Sgt]

In Echoes, the rewinding effect of the gameplay is... well, that, the gameplay. The in-story justification is that if you used it, then Alm/Celica recieved a vision of the turns/actions you "rewinded", at the point you fell back to.

As for the time rewinding itself... well, perhaps it's just something uniqued to their world. Or it's an exception. It reminds me of Dragon Ball Super. Where time travel is a thing, then you have Whis's up-to-three-minutes rewind power.

Edited April 24, 2019 by Acacia Sgt

[Hanes]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

The Turnwheel shows visions of the future. Not actually rewinding time. It was stated in the actual story by Silque.

But it does actually rewind time, as indicated by the gameplay of it, unless you're willing to tell me that it's all just a vision and when I rewind I go to a "real timeline" until I rewind again and now I came back to the "real real timeline" which just doesn't make sense, also if it's all a vision and I win the game without using it that could also make the argument that we never win because it was all a vision of the future after we got Mila's turnwheel if we are willing to say that all our battles are just visions of the future and thus why we can ""rewind""

Yeah, no I think it simply just does both. It showed Alm the possibility of the future but it's never stated that it isn't actually rewining time and what happens looks a lot like rewinding to me.

[Acacia Sgt]

3 minutes ago, This boi uses Nino said:

But it does actually rewind time, as indicated by the gameplay of it, unless you're willing to tell me that it's all just a vision and when I rewind I go to a "real timeline" until I rewind again and now I came back to the "real real timeline" which just doesn't make sense, also if it's all a vision and I win the game without using it that could also make the argument that we never win because it was all a vision of the future after we got Mila's turnwheel if we are willing to say that all our battles are just visions of the future and thus why we can ""rewind""

Yeah, no I think it simply just does both. It showed Alm the possibility of the future but it's never stated that it isn't actually rewining time and what happens looks a lot like rewinding to me.

IT's gameplay and story segregation. The turnwheel only "rewinds" so far back, so yes, you were playing the "vision" when you decide to use the turnwheel to fall back.

[Hanes]

2 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

IT's gameplay and story segregation. The turnwheel only "rewinds" so far back, so yes, you were playing the "vision" when you decide to use the turnwheel to fall back.

OK but Silque doesn't ever say it doesn't rewind time, it just told Alm in that one cutscene what the turnwheel showed to him specifically right there that what he was shown was a vision of the future.

And then again yes it has limited uses ok so then we assume that when the turnwheel is out of uses then that's when the real timeline is. And it's not a vision. But what if we win in one of those visions of the future (When we still have uses), that means we haven't won yet right if we won in a vision of the future? Which is just a silly idea. 

I say the turnwheel can show you visions of the future and rewind time, there's no reason why it has to be mutually exclusiv (I.E If you flip a coin and get heads then you didn't get tails and you couldn't have at the same time and space).

[Acacia Sgt]

4 minutes ago, This boi uses Nino said:

OK but Silque doesn't ever say it doesn't rewind time, it just told Alm in that one cutscene what the turnwheel showed to him specifically right there that what he was shown was a vision of the future.

And then again yes it has limited uses ok so then we assume that when the turnwheel is out of uses then that's when the real timeline is. And it's not a vision. But what if we win in one of those visions of the future (When we still have uses), that means we haven't won yet right if we won in a vision of the future? Which is just a silly idea. 

I say the turnwheel can show you visions of the future and rewind time, there's no reason why it has to be mutually exclusiv (I.E If you flip a coin and get heads then you didn't get tails and you couldn't have at the same time and space).

Yeah, turns out, you are right:

Cleric: Ah! Of course! It is just as I thought. Ancient as it is, it’s little wonder some of the cogs are missing. While it appears to still function, it has lost some of its true capability. I suspect the counterpart to your Turnwheel is in the same condition. I can’t imagine its bearer is more gentle with it than you, Celica. If you were able to find the missing cogs, I could attempt a repair. A restored Turnwheel would be able to turn back even more time. You’re curious where the cogs might be, yes? Yes, of course. Sadly, I couldn’t say. That’s the trouble with ancient artifacts! They’re always scattering their bits at various locations around the world.

At Novis Priory, in the beginning of Chapter 2.

So yeah, the turnwheel can rewind time.

That said, there's only a limit to how much it can,  so no, it can't rewind from the end of the game to the moment they receive their turnwheels. lol

By the way, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Just because Silque didn't said it couldn't, doesn't mean that it can. In this case, the cleric's words are better evidence than the lack of Silque's.

Edited April 24, 2019 by Acacia Sgt

[Hanes]

2 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

At Novis Priory, in the beginning of Chapter 2.

So yeah, the turnwheel can rewind time.

That said, there's only a limit to how much it can,  so no, it can't rewind from the end of the game to the moment they receive their turnwheels. lol

Oh man I would have read that rn that Im replaying Echoes if I hadn't skipped the story lel.

Yay

Oh no I was making fun of the it's all a vision of the future thing by saying that it could theoretically just show you the end of the game, I mean does it have a limit to how much forward in time it could show you? Prolly not.

[Guest Sol19]

4 hours ago, thecrimsonflash said:

if I ruin a unit by giving them a weapon that makes no sense I shouldn't be allowed to fix it.

Why though? A game should never discourage experimentation, and failing the chapter and or getting characters killed should be punishment enough. With this class system there is a lot of potential for enemy and level design that makes the classes you deploy an important part of your strategy.

[omegaxis1]

20 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Yeah, turns out, you are right:

Cleric: Ah! Of course! It is just as I thought. Ancient as it is, it’s little wonder some of the cogs are missing. While it appears to still function, it has lost some of its true capability. I suspect the counterpart to your Turnwheel is in the same condition. I can’t imagine its bearer is more gentle with it than you, Celica. If you were able to find the missing cogs, I could attempt a repair. A restored Turnwheel would be able to turn back even more time. You’re curious where the cogs might be, yes? Yes, of course. Sadly, I couldn’t say. That’s the trouble with ancient artifacts! They’re always scattering their bits at various locations around the world.

At Novis Priory, in the beginning of Chapter 2.

So yeah, the turnwheel can rewind time.

That said, there's only a limit to how much it can,  so no, it can't rewind from the end of the game to the moment they receive their turnwheels. lol

By the way, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Just because Silque didn't said it couldn't, doesn't mean that it can. In this case, the cleric's words are better evidence than the lack of Silque's.

 

19 minutes ago, This boi uses Nino said:

Oh man I would have read that rn that Im replaying Echoes if I hadn't skipped the story lel.

Yay

Oh no I was making fun of the it's all a vision of the future thing by saying that it could theoretically just show you the end of the game, I mean does it have a limit to how much forward in time it could show you? Prolly not.

This feels less about actual lore and more about just explaining mechanics. I have much less reason to believe this one. After all, we have the case of the random man telling how to beat Jedah going "4... 8..." and such. I think Silque's case of explaining is the true lore of the Turnwheel, but rather than have the cleric explain using the lore, like saying "more visions" they just say more "rewinds."

I honestly cannot believe in such a notion of actual rewinding time after how Awakening goes about time travel. Naga is supposed to be way more powerful than Mila, and yet Mila's time abilities are greater? 

[Acacia Sgt]

4 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

This feels less about actual lore and more about just explaining mechanics. I have much less reason to believe this one. After all, we have the case of the random man telling how to beat Jedah going "4... 8..." and such. I think Silque's case of explaining is the true lore of the Turnwheel, but rather than have the cleric explain using the lore, like saying "more visions" they just say more "rewinds."

I honestly cannot believe in such a notion of actual rewinding time after how Awakening goes about time travel. Naga is supposed to be way more powerful than Mila, and yet Mila's time abilities are greater? 

As I mentioned before, it could be different things. Maybe Naga can also do it; but thought it was better to do actual time travel? When you think about it, Mila's ability is more limited. You can only rewind time, it only applies to the user of the turnwheel, there's a limit to how far you can go back, and it's limited to where the user was at the point you go back to in order to change things. Compared to that, Naga's time traveling ability is much less restricted and powerful.

[omegaxis1]

5 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

As I mentioned before, it could be different things. Maybe Naga can also do it; but thought it was better to do actual time travel? When you think about it, Mila's ability is more limited. You can only rewind time, it only applies to the user of the turnwheel, there's a limit to how far you can go back, and it's limited to where the user was at the point you go back to in order to change things. Compared to that, Naga's time traveling ability is much less restricted and powerful.

If you can ACTUALLY rewind time, then why didn't Alm avoid Rudolf's death? Why didn't Celica just avoid being tricked by Jedah? That's the problem with trying to insist it is actually rewinding time because it makes decisions in the story even more redundant. It being visions of the future is better because it means that not everything can be seen.

The concept of actually rewinding time makes the story really bad because any bad decision should be easily rewound. 

[Acacia Sgt]

2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

If you can ACTUALLY rewind time, then why didn't Alm avoid Rudolf's death? Why didn't Celica just avoid being tricked by Jedah? That's the problem with trying to insist it is actually rewinding time because it makes decisions in the story even more redundant. It being visions of the future is better because it means that not everything can be seen.

The concept of actually rewinding time makes the story really bad because any bad decision should be easily rewound. 

The turnwheel only seems to rewind minutes at best. Consider this. After the shock of learning he killed his own father, what are the odds his first thought will be "It's okay, I can return to just before I land the killing blow!" Chances are, his state of mind may not let him. By the time he realizes it, it could be already too late. Plus, they spent some time talking before he actually died so that "wasted" time to go back to before the fatal strike.

As for Celica, that just wasn't possible. Shaken by what Mila did of sealing herself and the Falchion, she geniunly believed about sacrificing herself so at least Duma would not degenerate. Other than thinking Mila could be released, that's why she agreed to do what Jedah said. Also, there is an undertermined amount of time between able to escape from Jedah and knowing he lied about being able to release Mila. As I said, the time the turnwheel rewind is limited. There might already be too late.

That's how I see it, at least.

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Acacia Sgt said:

The turnwheel only seems to rewind minutes at best. Consider this. After the shock of learning he killed his own father, what are the odds his first thought will be "It's okay, I can return to just before I land the killing blow!" Chances are, his state of mind may not let him. By the time he realizes it, it could be already too late. Plus, they spent some time talking before he actually died so that "wasted" time to go back to before the fatal strike.

As for Celica, that just wasn't possible. Shaken by what Mila did of sealing herself and the Falchion, she geniunly believed about sacrificing herself so at least Duma would not degenerate. Other than thinking Mila could be released, that's why she agreed to do what Jedah said. Also, there is an undertermined amount of time between able to escape from Jedah and knowing he lied about being able to release Mila. As I said, the time the turnwheel rewind is limited. There might already be too late.

That's how I see it, at least.

That makes no sense. The turnwheel shows how it can go far in how much it rewinds. The fact you can alter deaths of your own friends, which holds far more impact than others, makes it clear that you can alter much further than a few minutes. That's acting like 30 turns of rewind you can do is but a few minutes, when that isn't how it works. Also, a few minutes can easily mean a lot of things to be done. A few minutes then means Celica could fight back, or warn Alm and such. 

Trying to explain around things like that makes every story aspect dumb. Like you HAVE to explain why literally anything in the story that's bad cannot be rewound back.

Also, you're going about how a cleric mentions this like it's the canon thing, but the actual story doesn't go about it. The cleric that gives the advice is the gameplay-story segregation that doesn't follow the actual lore strictly. It is just explaining to the player what to do and how it works. 

[Sentinel07]

The way the classes work has me intrigued. Could mean there's a lot of tiers of classes to work with.

Which might explain why Commoners/Nobles only seem to have 4 movement. They really are at the very bottom.

[Acacia Sgt]

14 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

That makes no sense. The turnwheel shows how it can go far in how much it rewinds. The fact you can alter deaths of your own friends, which holds far more impact than others, makes it clear that you can alter much further than a few minutes. That's acting like 30 turns of rewind you can do is but a few minutes, when that isn't how it works. Also, a few minutes can easily mean a lot of things to be done. A few minutes then means Celica could fight back, or warn Alm and such. 

Trying to explain around things like that makes every story aspect dumb. Like you HAVE to explain why literally anything in the story that's bad cannot be rewound back.

Also, you're going about how a cleric mentions this like it's the canon thing, but the actual story doesn't go about it. The cleric that gives the advice is the gameplay-story segregation that doesn't follow the actual lore strictly. It is just explaining to the player what to do and how it works. 

It depends on how you see it. In reality, people wouldn't be moving or doing all that they do or happen to them one at a time, waiting for their "turn". Try to think how all those one-by-one actions would look realisticly. The amount of time they would take. Then how many "actions" the turnwheel can rewind (since there is a limit, after a point you can't go back to the very beginning of the battle), then how that translates to the amount of time it took. The only thing we could be sure about is that one turn is one minute. If I recall correctly. So perhaps even saying a few minutes is being generous. So even less time to do something or be able to change things.

That may be your opinion. Sometimes, the narrative may bring it up or imply it, to avoid situations like this.

Where is the line drawn, though? What makes the cleric's word simply fourth-wall braking mechanics explaining instead of just in-lore explanation? The turnwheel exists in-lore, like it or not.

---

So who knows, we might start to see something similar with Sothis, here.

 

Edited April 24, 2019 by Acacia Sgt

[omegaxis1]

2 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

It depends on how you see it. In reality, people wouldn't be moving or doing all that they do or happen to them one at a time, waiting for their "turn". Try to think how all those one-by-one actions would look realisticly. The amount of time they would take. Then how many "actions" the turnwheel can rewind (since there is a limit, after a point you can't go back to the very beginning of the battle), then how that translates to the amount of time it took. The only thing we could be sure about is that one turn is one minute. If I recall correctly. So perhaps even saying a few minutes is being generous. So even less time to do something or be able to change things.

That may be your opinion. Sometimes, the narrative may bring it up or imply it, to avoid situations like this.

Where is the line drawn, though? What makes the cleric's word simply fourth-wall braking mechanics explaining instead of just in-lore explanation? The turnwheel exists in-lore, like it or not.

---

So who knows, we might start to see something similar with Sothis, here.

 

War and battles are not won in but minutes. It consumes hours and sometimes days. The field they are moving in, the battles, the strategies, these all take time. And yes, the turnwheel CAN take you back to the very beginning of the battle. There is actually no limits to how many turns you can move back on in a single jump.

I honestly think you're putting too much faith in a cleric simply because she says it when the story and lore says otherwise. We even see how it works in the story when Alm gets that vision. And Celica having Mila's blood even had a vision where she saw Alm being killed by a possessed Rudolf. 

There are way more lore and evidence to suggest that Mila's Turnwheel doesn't turn back time, but just gives visions. 

[Armagon]

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Wait, are they actually saying that Sothis can REWIND time? Not show visions of the future? Doesn't it violate other time mechanics in the franchise?

Fodland is likely it's own universe so it doesn't necessarily violate time mechanics already established (by which i mean only Awakening established because i can't think of any other FE game that explored temporal manipulation.

I mean, the trailer already showed us that Byleth (or Sothis) can use Mandom so this isn't that much of a surprise. It's more of a confirmation.

[omegaxis1]

22 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Fodland is likely it's own universe so it doesn't necessarily violate time mechanics already established (by which i mean only Awakening established because i can't think of any other FE game that explored temporal manipulation.

I mean, the trailer already showed us that Byleth (or Sothis) can use Mandom so this isn't that much of a surprise. It's more of a confirmation.

I am hoping that it is just more future visions. Because having it be actual time manipulation means everything that happens in the story, any bad events that happens to the player, should by all accounts be easily undone by time manipulation.

[eclipse]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

I am hoping that it is just more future visions. Because having it be actual time manipulation means everything that happens in the story, any bad events that happens to the player, should by all accounts be easily undone by time manipulation.

It would heavily depend on the laws of time and whatnot (like, go too far in the past and alter something and you're trapped there because you've effectively destroyed the reality you came from).  But we'll need way more details on Seiros and the world before such a conclusion can be drawn.

[Armagon]

2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

I am hoping that it is just more future visions. Because having it be actual time manipulation means everything that happens in the story, any bad events that happens to the player, should by all accounts be easily undone by time manipulation.

Well you see, i'd assume there's some kind of catch. If Byleth and/or Sothis is able to rewind whole days then yeah, that's an issue. But i'm just expecting to only be able to rewind a few seconds up to a few minutes at most within the context of the story. Obviously being able to rewind at least one turn would be more than just a few minutes but that's gameplay vs story segregation for ya.

[omegaxis1]

5 minutes ago, eclipse said:

It would heavily depend on the laws of time and whatnot (like, go too far in the past and alter something and you're trapped there because you've effectively destroyed the reality you came from).  But we'll need way more details on Seiros and the world before such a conclusion can be drawn.

 

2 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Well you see, i'd assume there's some kind of catch. If Byleth and/or Sothis is able to rewind whole days then yeah, that's an issue. But i'm just expecting to only be able to rewind a few seconds up to a few minutes at most within the context of the story. Obviously being able to rewind at least one turn would be more than just a few minutes but that's gameplay vs story segregation for ya.

Even a few minutes can literally change anything that happens. So unless they explain why they can't turn back time, it'll feel like a cop out.

[eclipse]

1 minute ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

Even a few minutes can literally change anything that happens. So unless they explain why they can't turn back time, it'll feel like a cop out.

I think reading some other stories that incorporate time travel would do you good.  It's explained in a multitude of different ways, depending on what the author feels like.

Right now, we don't know what the mechanics or rules of time travel are, so it's impossible to say what the turn-rollback thing is.