Alastor plays and ranks the whole series! Mission Complete! ...For now.

Interdimensional Observer · June 3, 2020

40 minutes ago, Jotari said:

So, am I the only one who has no idea who Syrene is? Like, I mean from a narrative stand point. I've played this game multiple times and she always seems to come out of absolutely nowhere. I know she pulls the whole Pegasus sister thing, but is she ever once mentioned in the story before this? And not just in the supports, but in the actual story? Because when we reach the map everyone is all like "Hey it's that character we know, let's help her!" Yet I don't think she ever appears before this point. And I was looking on my repeat playthroughs, but if it has happened it's flown right over my head.

She does not appear anywhere else or nor is mentioned outside of supports beforehand.

Syrene only leads... *rereads her profile description* the 3rd battalion of Frelia's Pegasus Knights. No idea if thats significant or not. According to everyone's favorite open to public editing online reference source, a battalion is defined as a unit of 300-800 troops (but I question if IS actually knew this). A quick glance of the internet suggests usually a country could muster no more 10k troops to a single battle in most normal situations in Medieval Europe, could be more in rare circumstances or the medieval Eurasian world outside Europe. So I guess a battalion could be significant, especially if it's (flying) cavalry.

And I find Syrene to be undercooked not only in introduction. For she's the last playable character to join outside of Creature Campaign, and this is it? Her bases are comparable or worse than Seth's! I like my prepromotes, so she disappoints by not being a good one. She grows rather well, not Tana good but her stats mostly except Lck can compare to Vanessa's, but growth isn't very relevant this late. And where is my Gotoh?! Why I am stuck with a notable but not famed Pegasus Knight as the last unit? Gimme someone with some grandeur or magnificence.

Edited June 3, 2020 by Interdimensional Observer

Jotari · June 3, 2020

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

She does not appear anywhere else or nor is mentioned outside of supports beforehand.

Syrene only leads... *rereads her profile description* the 3rd battalion of Frelia's Pegasus Knights. No idea if thats significant or not. According to everyone's favorite open to public editing online reference source, a battalion is defined as a unit of 300-800 troops (but I question if IS actually knew this). A quick glance of the internet suggests usually a country could muster no more 10k troops to a single battle in most normal situations in Medieval Europe, could be more in rare circumstances or the medieval Eurasian world outside Europe. So I guess a battalion could be significant, especially if it's (flying) cavalry.

Oh good. So I'm not insane. They just throw out this character at you that everyone knows about with absolutely no formal introduction to the player. I wonder how many players just take it in its stride assuming they missed something.

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

And I find Syrene to be undercooked not only in introduction. For she's the last playable character to join outside of Creature Campaign, and this is it? Her bases are comparable or worse than Seth's! I like my prepromotes, so she disappoints by not being a good one. She grows rather well, not Tana good but her stats mostly except Lck can compare to Vanessa's, but growth isn't very relevant this late. And where is my Gotoh?! Why I am stuck with a notable but not famed Pegasus Knight as the last unit? Gimme someone with some grandeur or magnificence.

This is something I intended to mention too. It's absolutely ridiculous that that the first character you get in the game is better than the final character in the game when your comparing their bases.

Alastor15243 · June 3, 2020

That is... pretty alarming, yeah. Though in fairness, not every game in the series has or needs a Gotoh. It is weird that this game's final recruit comes with so little fanfare, but if you take it as just a recruitment instead of the last recruitment... I didn't really notice anything off until you called attention to it.

Koops · June 3, 2020

Still, there's no excuse for Syrene's bases to be this bad.

Bitch, THEA in FE6 HM has comparable bases to Syrene and she joins only a bit before the midgame, and Thea's not even that good (Although I always use her). I like Syrene design-wise and I think she's cool and all but no matter what way you put it she's just bad. Thankfully, at least the next chapter is good for her. She can kill the eggs without too much effort (she does need more than iron weaponry tho, which is a sign) for an easy 50 exp, and with decent growths she could turn into something if you feed her lotsa eggs. She was a fucking pain in that one playthrough I used her in, tho.

Alastor15243 · June 3, 2020

Sacred Stones Day 28: Chapter 17EIR

Alright, time to do this all over again with a different army.

Curiously, I'm not sure why, but despite buying the same number of barrier staves in both routes, Eirika!L'arachel ran out at a much lower level than Ephraim!L'arachel. I'm guessing L'arachel just hasn't gotten the chance to do as much healing since I wasn't as desperate to get her to C staves in time for Chapter 14?

Whatever the reason, either I'm gonna have to promote her early, or she's gonna take a few chapters longer to be a combat unit.

Anyway...

I've gotten to the flashback, and it seems to be the same. On that subject though:

Jotari brought up the possibility that the little girl who Lyon says he saved with dark magic might not have been “saved” at all, and simply re-animated like Vigarde and Monica. I... don't think that's likely. First off, since there's no way he'd know that's what he's doing, and couldn't give elaborae orders to the corpse to make her act normal, either she'd behave really, really weirdly, like a rabid zombie or something, or she'd just be in a coma. And Lyon, with his numerous crippling self-esteem issues, does not strike me as the sort of person who would consider either scenario to be something to brag about to the two people he admires most in all the world. If Lyon's effort with that girl achieved anything less than her being alive and conscious and able to cry out “mommy!” as her mother holds her in her arms and weeps tears of joy... I don't think he'd have been all that proud of it.

We're after the flashback now, and as I said before, I'm pretty disappointed not only at the lack of real story differences between these versions of the route so far besides Lyon, but also...

...Well I mean, there are basically no character moments here. No interactions that delve deeper into Ephraim and Eirika's character. They've each got three other characters with regular speaking roles to talk to now, and yet it's basically just all business, moving forward with the matter at hand. Granted, said matter is important and all, but... Eirika and Ephraim, but especially Eirika, feel so under-developed. Despite all the nonsense going on, neither of them have had many opportunities to just... I dunno... talk about their feelings or something? FE7 had plenty of such moments. Throughout all three modes, all three of the main lords had a chance to breathe and just... let the shit that's happened sink in. Vent about it.

The only moment I remember of anything of the sort happening in this game is when Eirika and Ephraim are staying at Rausten, and whichever one you're playing as talks to someone (I know Eirika talks to L'arachel, and maybe it's the same for Ephraim, I guess I'll find out) about Lyon's condition and the fact that it's impossible to save him. I remembered that scene between L'arachel and Eirika so vividly as a kid, and it didn't occur to me until replaying this that... maybe the reason I remembered it so vividly was because it's basically the only scene of its kind in the game. It's the only time I can think of where this character, this character who's clearly characterized as being more about heart than warfare and strategy... actually gets to let that heart be front and center.

And really... I think that's the core of my issue with Eirika's character. The thing I've been struggling to find the right words to say until this very moment. It's not an inherently bad thing that she's less badass than her brother. It's not inherently a bad thing that she's less proactive. It's not inherently bad that she has less influence over the course of her own story than Ephraim does. Hell, it's not even inherently bad that she'll soon make a naive and costly mistake fueled by nothing but emotion overriding her better judgment.

The problem here is that we don't get anything in exchange.

I don't learn more about Eirika's character than Ephraim's. With the exception of a flashback or two, I don't even get the slightest inkling into what she's even thinking about. I was taken on more of an emotional journey in those 10 chapters of Lyn Mode than I've gotten from Eirika in this entire damned playthrough so far. I saw Lyn smile, I saw her cry, I watched her bare her soul to a complete stranger, I watched her interact with old friends and make new ones, I watched her almost get consumed by murderous rage at the thought of the bandits who killed her people, and I watched her, with cold and subtle fury, stand up to a racist who expected her to beg for his help.

I've barely seen a tenth of that from Eirika. And that is the paradoxical crux of what makes Eirika so horrible to me: She's an emotionally-driven character... who doesn't talk about her emotions. She barely even shows them. She doesn't let herself show the slightest bit of emotion or reaction to the viscerally horrifying things happening all around her. She was driven out of her home, her father died, her brother could've been soon to follow, the dead were walking the goddamned earth, and if any of that was having any emotional impact on Eirika whatsoever, we didn't get to see any of it, because she keeps it all bottled up, and she isn't getting any consequences or even payoff for her emotional constipation in any way. For all intents and purposes, she may as well not even have a personality half the time.

Whatever compelling stories could be told from the way she experiences the story we're watching unfold, they're kept locked inside her head where we can't see them.

Honestly, right now, the way I'm feeling before playing the rest of the marathon again?

Eirika is my second least favorite main character in the entire franchise.

Above Byleth, but below Corrin.

At least Corrin was funny.

But while this behavior in the mandatory main story alone would by itself still be very damning, I can't exactly denounce her completely without checking out her optional supports. In fact, fuck it. I'm going to check them out now. See if she fares any better there-

…

I just read her supports with Ephraim.

...Ephraim claims that there's been “fighting in every generation”.

That...

Okay.

Who?

Fighting whom?

Why did the prologue say that the continent has been at peace for 800 years?

If they really just meant specifically “peace from the forces of darkness”, then why has not even one single peep of past military tension emerged between all of the combined world powers as they ally with each other?

Anyway, I was practically insulted by that support set. Not just that comment, but the support in general. That was one of the most boringly-written support chains I have ever seen. Not subject matter, no, there've been more boring topics for sure, but in word choice. Every single line by either party, for the most part, was just so awkward, and simultaneously over-written yet clinical. It was nothing like how they acted with Lyon, and I was really, really disappointed to read this again.

I'll read another one next Eirika Route chapter. For now, I wanna keep this short.

...Moving on...

It occurs to me as I see that Frelian army scene again... if the Frelian army is so terrible that it's getting its ass handed to it this badly by what little remains of the army of the Grado Empire, how the fuck did Innes ever repel the Grado invasion with soldiers of this quality?

Anyway, looks like, as expected, the chapter changes when Lyon shows up. Honestly... I'm not sure why they went with these two interpretations of Lyon's character here.

Now, Ephraim says “Wait, Eirika! You said it yourself. Lyon must be under the control of someone or something else.”

Initially I was going to take this as another point against Eirika when she immediately contradicts this and goes towards Lyon insisting there's nothing wrong with him and he can be trusted...

...But actually, I looked back to find this line. I searched every instance of the word “Lyon” in the script from Chapter 15EIR to now, and... I... never once found an instance of Eirika stating she agrees that Lyon has been possessed. In short, as far as I can tell, she never actually “said it [her]self” as Ephraim claims. If I didn't miss something here, this is either bad writing where they just flat-out forgot to include a line that would be alluded to in the future, or irresponsibly subtle writing about Ephraim having a self-serving memory and no respect for Eirika's intellectual agency or something.

If I'm wrong here, please let me know. For now, I'm not going to cast any judgment on this moment.

But of course, Fomortiis's attempt to use Lyon to lure in Eirika fails because Lyon manages to fight back.

Honestly... this game could have done with some other emotional portraits for the main characters. I think this scene demonstrates that more than any other. If this were in FE7, Lyon would have a secondary facial expression used here for when he's fighting for control against Fomortiis, squinting in agony or more visibly shouting. As it stands, his struggles of what sounds like intense physical and psychological pain... are shown with Lyon's perfectly calm face.

...And then it just shifts over to dialogue from Ephraim route.

The reveal that there's someone else inside Lyon's body is even worse here, because they use the black text prematurely, then go on to reveal it anyway. That's... super lame.

...Claiming that Lyon isn't in his body anymore is kinda... well... a ridiculous lie to tell, given that it would imply Fomortiis thwarted his own plan to trick Eirika into getting close to him by pretending to be Lyon fighting back.

And now Fomortiis basically just reads Lyon's soul diary out loud, outing him as having a crush on Eirika right in front of her. This feels like such a weird thing to do, since a big moment at the end of the game is that he finally admits this to her as his last words. Already giving Eirika an inkling seems to kind of cheapen the moment at the end.

I'm not mad that she spends the rest of the game acting as if she didn't hear it until Lyon tells her though. I tried for a second to imagine Eirika even mentioning Fomortiis's claims that Lyon has a crush on her, and damned near every iteration I can think of sounds like hilariously petty nonsense. It's just not remotely important at the moment, especially when it's just a rumor from a guy trying to fuck with your heads.

Anyway, as for gameplay... this map seems literally identical to the Ephraim version. I can't see a single difference. I'll be using much of the same strategy, except Ephraim will be tagging along with Seth and Franz, and instead of Ephraim and L'arachel taking on the druids, it'll be Lute and Kyle.

I've been thinking about who I can get to S rank to use some more legendary weapons (in case I need them), and I'm noticing that the weapon experience of weapons in this game is... abysmal. There's only one bow, the short bow, that provides any extra weapon exp at all at 2 compared to 1, and with swords it's just blades, rapiers and lancereavers that provide 2.

Light magic, thankfully, is far more generous, probably because it's a weapon type that most of its users first learn at tier 2. Shine gives 2, for one thing. I don't have any shines though, so I'll have to get some later if I want Saleh to get from B to S rank. Purge provides 3, but that's just 15 wexp total, so... I think I'll save that tome for a situation where it'd actually improve my performance, rather than just using it for its own sake. I'll be sending Saleh up northeast to the island to see if he can gain some light magic training against the druids. Now that I'm not training Myrrh, that seems like a good use of that opportunity.

Lute, unlike L'arachel, can't reliably 100% dodgetank the luna druids, but thanks to her ridiculously high HP and resistance, even if both lunas and nosferatu were to land, she'd still just barely be alive.

...Shit, no, wait, there's the 1 damage bonus from weapon triangle. Looks like she'll just barely die if all three of these very inaccurate attacks hit.

...Well, it's my only option to keep these villagers alive at this point, so sure.

Anyway, she survives, and I also confirm that luna ignores the damage boosts from supports as well as raw stats. I was curious about that. I wonder how it works in Fates, come to think of it, since the wording with supportive skills in that game isn't that it provides a boost to defense, but a reduction of damage taken. Very, very crucial difference in wording when it comes to this sort of thing.

...Beyond that... really, there's nothing much to mention. This is a really straightforward map. Only real difference is that Cormag, now significantly weaker than he is in Ephraim Route, is taking on the heroes singlehandedly in a very slow and methodical fashion, abusing terrain to take only two of them at a time.

Anyway, yeah... about Syrene. I agree with people that the last prepromote character in the game having worse base stats than the first prepromote character in the game is... utterly ridiculous. I saw a comment on Mekkah's Gotoh tier list video regarding SS's lack of a Gotoh that joked that Seth was supposed to be the Gotoh, but he was accidentally added first instead of last.

...Like, this really drives home that that's barely a joke.

Anyway, just to make sure I don't accidentally get really unlucky trying that “Lute tanking the druids” thing again, I'm gonna intercept them a little ahead of the bridge, right behind the forest tile, so that only two of them will attack the turn after they spawn, making it impossible for her to die.

...Or I could just use the forest tile to achieve the last bit of dodgetanking power she needs. I suppose I could do that too. But in fairness, that wasn't an option the turn I came up with that first idea, because Lute was too far away.

Using the knowledge I just learned about weapon ranks, I decide to give Cormag some lancereavers, hoping I'll have an opportunity to use them to train his sword rank.

I've reached the boss, but I won't be able to fight Lyon with Eirika without the help of both a barrier staff and the Hoplon Guard, which I'm in the process of ferrying over to her right now.

Okay, yet again Fomortiis is psychologically tormenting Lyon, forcing what little of him is left to watch as he kills his friends. This is actually what motivated me to consider Fomortiis the most evil villain in Fire Emblem history. Not the best-written, but the most evil. Mostly because of how amazingly petty he can be. That's actually probably the most interesting thing about Fomortiis: the childish glee he gets in personally tormenting Lyon and watching him suffer. Sure, Nergal indulged in petty personal villainy too, but one, he's crazy, and two, it's more that he found amusement in a situation he indirectly caused, rather than intentionally doing something to achieve nothing but the suffering of a single human being.

But this second mention of Lyon's crush on Eirika really pisses me off. Like, seriously, it's like Fomortiis's capacity to be a petty dickbag on top of the lord of evil is so strong that he wants to ruin the dramatic buildup of this plot point for us! Hearing it from his mouth like this is not the most engaging way to learn about Lyon's feelings!

OH SHIT!

Guess what!?

Kyle S ranked swords and I never even noticed! I have some one who can use Audhulma! At least on this file.

...Anyway, after ending the chapter... Ephraim's still the one doing most of the talking in the aftermath of Lyon leaving.

...No, they... they have Ephraim make that enraged shout about how much the demon king needs to die, but then... it just cuts to Innes talking to Eirika, ignoring Ephraim's outburst entirely, unlike Ephraim route.

...While still having Innes talk to Eirika as if she were the one who had the over-emotional moment when Lyon fled, telling Eirika there's “no need to panic”.

...This game's writing process is... incredibly hard to make sense of.

Also...

Innes gives Eirika the twins this time. Last time, it was because Ephraim was the leader of the army, so naturally they should go to him. What's he gonna say this time?

...The same thing.

That they should be entrusted to Eirika, because... because Eirika is the leader of this army.

…

When the fuck was that decided? The change from Ephraim to Eirika mode hasn't given Eirika a single extra leadership moment, hell, barely more moments at all, since reuniting with Ephraim from her errand gone horribly wrong. I suppose this doesn't feel too weird if you're playing Eirika Route exclusively, since, y'know, you've been playing as her this whole time... but playing both routes at once and seeing how little changes between the two continuities after they reunite... this just feels so ridiculously arbitrary that suddenly Eirika is considered the leader here.

Anyway, before I go, I just realized I didn't say much about what I thought of the map last time, so since as far as I can tell everything was literally identical here, I guess I still can:

It's... I mean, it was pretty interesting in the beginning, but after that it's just a swarm of repetitive reinforcements. Handle one wave, you've handled them all. Really not that engaging. I like the design of the terrain itself though.

But anyway, that's the end of the map, so... guess I'll see you tomorrow, with Chapter 18EPH.

Stay safe, everyone.

Koops · June 3, 2020

On the topic of that comment of Mekkah's video who jokingly said that Seth was supposed to be the Gotoh of the game, while it did make me laugh hard, I will have to disagree here and say that it doesn't work.

Having 14 strentgh and 12 speed base is laughable in the endgame, and he wouldn't even be that durable with only 30 HP and 11 defense. Hell, Eirika on average has better stats than at least base Seth by this point, specially in speed, and seeing your opinion on her, well that's saying something.

Seth just has amazing bases for his jointime and great growths, but his bases are not at all good for the final few maps. (Precisely why Syrene is bad, actually)

Alastor15243 · June 3, 2020

11 minutes ago, Koops said:

On the topic of that comment of Mekkah's video who jokingly said that Seth was supposed to be the Gotoh of the game, while it did make me laugh hard, I will have to disagree here and say that it doesn't work.

Having 14 strentgh and 12 speed base is laughable in the endgame, and he wouldn't even be that durable with only 30 HP and 11 defense. Hell, Eirika on average has better stats than at least base Seth by this point, specially in speed, and seeing your opinion on her, well that's saying something.

Seth just has amazing bases for his jointime and great growths, but his bases are not at all good for the final few maps. (Precisely why Syrene is bad, actually)

Yeah, I get all of this. I did say "barely" a joke, not "not" a joke, but I suppose Seth's bases weren't quite as good as I remembered. Styrene actually compares well to base Seth.

Interdimensional Observer · June 3, 2020

3 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Anyway, as for gameplay... this map seems literally identical to the Ephraim version. I can't see a single difference.

Maaaaaybe Lyon starts with the opposite tome of the two he has compared to Ephraim route? :sweatdrop:

3 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Kyle S ranked swords and I never even noticed! I have some one who can use Audhulma! At least on this file.

Thats a good thing for legendary weapon use, because Audhumla (the correct spelling of the Norse cow's name) has 18 Mt to Vidofnir's 15. The sword is stronger than the lance, unusual, if preceded by Durandal vs. Maltet. -But the +5 Hit & Crit bonus on all weapon use means S Lances is better 98% of the time.

3 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

I'll read another one next Eirika Route chapter. For now, I wanna keep this short.

Forde! Forde!

If you want something where Eirika tries to dance as an equal partner and with vibrancy, thats your best option.

And by that, I mean that an ideal Support should try to be a real dialogue. Although you can get good Supports where one person does all the substantial talking (see IkexSoren) and the other responds with no more than "why", "yes", "I see", "I understand", the very best Supports should have its two members making roughly equal and meaningful contributions.

Other criterion for ideal Supports exist too: good wording, a rich flavor be it humorous or serious, and character development be it backstory or present growth.

To turn back to Ike for a second, I felt a lot of his supports weren't strong dialogues when I critically reviewed them. I thought I could excuse this on the grounds Ike gets the main story to develop- Ike being passive lets the less fortunate get their time in the spotlight. But perhaps this excuse is poppycock in retrospect; :Hector: didn't abide by it.

3 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

And really... I think that's the core of my issue with Eirika's character. The thing I've been struggling to find the right words to say until this very moment. It's not an inherently bad thing that she's less badass than her brother. It's not inherently a bad thing that she's less proactive. It's not inherently bad that she has less influence over the course of her own story than Ephraim does. Hell, it's not even inherently bad that she'll soon make a naive and costly mistake fueled by nothing but emotion overriding her better judgment.

The problem here is that we don't get anything in exchange.

I don't learn more about Eirika's character than Ephraim's. With the exception of a flashback or two, I don't even get the slightest inkling into what she's even thinking about.

There might be one thing you're missing about Eirika though. Lyn was raised unaware of her minor nobility, on the freer if still supposedly misogynist plains. Eirika has been born and raised a princess, a princess who one might say prefers to stay courteous, well-mannered, and restrained.

L'Arachel in response to this would say "Restrain? Blasphemous! I'm regal and refined and I loooooooove outward emotion!". And Tana, with a little less self-esteem, would shout "Seconded!" to that L'Arachel exclamation. Eirika doesn't have to be a quiet damsel to be princessy, but the reality is that she is, you could argue.

Alastor15243 · June 3, 2020

12 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

To turn back to Ike for a second, I felt a lot of his supports weren't strong dialogues when I critically reviewed them. I thought I could excuse this on the grounds Ike gets the main story to develop- Ike being passive lets the less fortunate get their time in the spotlight. But perhaps this excuse is poppycock in retrospect; didn't abide by it.

In fairness, when you're a lord, putting your characterization in the main story and then taking a backseat in supports is a heck of a lot better than doing the opposite. But it shouldn't be necessary to do either/or.

12 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

There might be one thing you're missing about Eirika though. Lyn was raised unaware of her minor nobility, on the freer if still supposedly misogynist plains. Eirika has been born and raised a princess, a princess who one might say prefers to stay courteous, well-mannered, and restrained.

L'Arachel in response to this would say "Restrain? Blasphemous! I'm regal and refined and I loooooooove outward emotion!". And Tana, with a little less self-esteem, would shout "Seconded!" to that L'Arachel exclamation. Eirika doesn't have to be a quiet damsel to be princessy, but the reality is that she is, you could argue.

Yeah, but like... what's the narrative payoff of her being like this? How does it enrich the story in any way?

And I hear you loud and clear regarding Forde. Consider it done.

Edited June 3, 2020 by Alastor15243

Interdimensional Observer · June 4, 2020

7 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Yeah, but like... what's the narrative payoff of her being like this? How does it enrich the story in any way?

Contrast with her headstrong "lets take a castle we can't hold in a siege and then invade Grado Keep" brother?😐 I wasn't saying it was a good choice, only a choice they might have made.

~~Think positive, maybe her Awakening DLC version will make you like Eirika. An Alm in the opposite direction.~~

12 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

In fairness, when you're a lord, putting your characterization in the main story and then taking a backseat in supports is a heck of a lot better than doing the opposite. But it shouldn't be necessary to do either/or.

Agreeing with this. Hence me bringing up Hector. If your lord is good only in story or supports, you need to fix whichever isn't good for them. Theres no reason a compelling character in one place can't be compelling in the other ~~Haar sadly failed this test, his two PoR supports are bad, yet literally everything else about him is awesome~~.

Alastor15243 · June 4, 2020

7 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

~~Think positive, maybe her Awakening DLC version will make you like Eirika. An Alm in the opposite direction.~~

Oh goodness, should I do all the Awakening DLC? I mean, given how quickly I expect to blast through the game, maybe that would be best to truly explore everything the game has to offer. But like, am I actually going to have to buy all the Echoes DLC too, then? That's the only one I haven't bought any DLC for, because... well... yeah.

Incidentally, I thought I'd ask, just for the hell of it: how would you guys rank these first 7 games I've ranked so far?

Edited June 4, 2020 by Alastor15243

Jotari · June 4, 2020

29 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Contrast with her headstrong "lets take a castle we can't hold in a siege and then invade Grado Keep" brother?😐 I wasn't saying it was a good choice, only a choice they might have made.

~~Think positive, maybe her Awakening DLC version will make you like Eirika. An Alm in the opposite direction.~~

Agreeing with this. Hence me bringing up Hector. If your lord is good only in story or supports, you need to fix whichever isn't good for them. Theres no reason a compelling character in one place can't be compelling in the other ~~Haar sadly failed this test, his two PoR supports are bad, yet literally everything else about him is awesome~~.

If I recall correctly, her Awakening DLC incarnation gets a bit indignant when characters criticize her for fighting in a wedding dress. Like people critisizing her sensibilities literally pisses her off. Which seems, distinctly UnErikia. But maybe intentionally so for humor. Or perhaps I'm misremembering entirely.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Jotari

Icelerate · June 4, 2020

55 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Agreeing with this. Hence me bringing up Hector. If your lord is good only in story or supports, you need to fix whichever isn't good for them. Theres no reason a compelling character in one place can't be compelling in the other ~~Haar sadly failed this test, his two PoR supports are bad, yet literally everything else about him is awesome~~.

What if the lord in question has no supports like Sigurd, Seliph, Leif and Micaiah?

6 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

I don't learn more about Eirika's character than Ephraim's. With the exception of a flashback or two, I don't even get the slightest inkling into what she's even thinking about. I was taken on more of an emotional journey in those 10 chapters of Lyn Mode than I've gotten from Eirika in this entire damned playthrough so far. I saw Lyn smile, I saw her cry, I watched her bare her soul to a complete stranger, I watched her interact with old friends and make new ones, I watched her almost get consumed by murderous rage at the thought of the bandits who killed her people, and I watched her, with cold and subtle fury, stand up to a racist who expected her to beg for his help.

I've barely seen a tenth of that from Eirika. And that is the paradoxical crux of what makes Eirika so horrible to me: She's an emotionally-driven character... who doesn't talk about her emotions. She barely even shows them. She doesn't let herself show the slightest bit of emotion or reaction to the viscerally horrifying things happening all around her. She was driven out of her home, her father died, her brother could've been soon to follow, the dead were walking the goddamned earth, and if any of that was having any emotional impact on Eirika whatsoever, we didn't get to see any of it, because she keeps it all bottled up, and she isn't getting any consequences or even payoff for her emotional constipation in any way. For all intents and purposes, she may as well not even have a personality half the time.

Whatever compelling stories could be told from the way she experiences the story we're watching unfold, they're kept locked inside her head where we can't see them.

Honestly, right now, the way I'm feeling before playing the rest of the marathon again?

Eirika is my second least favorite main character in the entire franchise.

Above Byleth, but below Corrin.

I think your comparison with Lyn is actually a pretty good argument. But to say Eirika shows little emotion, personality and is too passive in the story seems rather preposterous.

Spoiler

Lyon:
“Ah…”

Eirika:
“Lyon!”

Lyon:
“Eirika…”

Eirika:
“Wait, Lyon! Don’t run away! My brother and I have been so worried about you… We know more then anyone the gentleness of your spirit. Your father is deranged, isn’t he? That’s why Grado invaded Renais, right? Tell me, Lyon… Please… Tell me what has happened.”

Lyon:
“I’m sorry, Eirika. I’ve wanted to see you and Ephraim for so long now… I wanted to see you so that I could apologize. The invasion of Renais… I couldn’t stop it. I’m sorry, but I still cannot talk to you. Not yet…”

Eirika:
“You… You have a reason, don’t you?”

Lyon:
“Mm… I can’t talk about it now, but… I promise I will tell you everything someday.”

Eirika:
“I see… I believe you, Lyon. I must tell you, I’m a little relieved. I was afraid you’d changed as much as your poor father has. I’m so glad.”

Lyon:
“Me, too, Eirika… No, you have changed. You’re even more beautiful than you were before.”

Eirika:
“L-Lyon…”

Lyon:
“I’m sorry, I have to go. But please remember this. This war started because I was too weak to stop it, but… I’ll always be your friend.”

Eirika:
“Lyon…”

Spoiler

L’Arachel:
“Renais, Frelia, Rausten, and Jehanna. Four nations…united!”

Eirika:
“Yes, I suppose that’s true. And my brother is with us as well. And if it were possible… Lyon… I wish you could be here with us, too.”

Spoiler

Eirika:
“No… it’s all right. We’re all suffering… We’re still completely surrounded by Grado’s armies… We may all die at any moment… I can’t lose focus now. Has anything changed?”

Seth:
“Unfortunately, no. On every front, our forces meet with defeat upon defeat. Rausten’s knights are scattered and worn, and the enemy is closing in around them. And this accursed sand… Most of the units can’t get proper footing and are being slowed down. Mounted units are having the worst time, as their movement is severely limited. Princess Eirika… I ask that you leave for safety. We’ll use flying units and magic users to hold the foe here.”

Eirika:
“No. I will not retreat. If I give up now… My brother would not forgive me. I’m the princess of Renais. I will fight, either to victory or to death. Brother, I…”

Spoiler

Eirika:
“I am here on a mission. One that I swore to my brother I would fulfill. I will not be stopped by the likes of you!”

Spoiler

Ephraim:
“I’ll tell you what I saw. I found Lyon inside Grado Keep. This is what he told me: He said he was behind this war. He said he’d befriended us solely so that, one day, he could invade Renais… He told me he killed our father.”

Eirika:
“That… That can’t…”

Ephraim:
“I know. I can’t believe it either. I refuse to believe it. How could he have planned all this since he was a child… I simply can’t fathom it. I’ve heard Lyon changed when he acquired the Dark Stone. I’ve no interest in magic, but… There was something uncanny about him. It seemed almost as though he were being controlled by something himself.”

Spoiler

Ephraim:
“We’ve finally made it back. Yet…”

Eirika:
“Mmm… We can repair the castle, and what was stolen, we can do without. But the wounds and suffering inflicted upon the people of Renais…”

Spoiler

Eirika:
“Lyon, please! You must stop! I… I have no wish to fight you!”

Lyon:
“Heh heh… Wretched girl. Are you listening, Lyon? Is this truly the girl you loved? Then I will use these hands to tear her limb from limb!”

I've seen far more from her than Roy and Seliph, for example.

Interdimensional Observer · June 4, 2020

1 minute ago, Icelerate said:

What if the lord in question has no supports like Sigurd, Seliph, Leif and Micaiah?

It doesn't stop them from being good, if they are. They can't be criticized for bad supports if real supports do not exist in their game. No supports removes a counterweight to some extent in case their story development is bad. But if their story characterization is good, then it doesn't matter that supports don't exist.

Leif in my mind is already a moderately "good" lord, he therefore doesn't need supports to be what he already is. But if Leif had supports, that -wishfully- could make him a great lord.

If you wanted me to compare a lord with supports to one without. Then I would say if two lords are 8/10 in story, and one has supports and is an 8/10 there, and the other lord had no supports, then I'd pick the one with supports- because they have more of the same quality. A 10/10 story & 3/10 support lord vs. a 8/10 story no supports lord would be trickier to determine.

2 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Oh goodness, should I do all the Awakening DLC? I mean, given how quickly I expect to blast through the game, maybe that would be best to truly explore everything the game has to offer. But like, am I actually going to have to buy all the Echoes DLC too, then? That's the only one I haven't bought any DLC for, because... well... yeah.

Awakening's Series 1 DLC- the Einherjar old games stuff- is poor on the story side of things. As for its gameplay, leaving out the pay to win two/three maps:

Champions of Yore is very easily doable ingame.
Lost Bloodlines can be done easily too, but a few phantasms have appreciably higher stats that make the exact timing of when to do (on Hard, not Lunatic) this harder. Sometime into the Valm arc is feasible- but at the very start, or later?
Smash Brethren ought to be achievable during the Grima arc that ends things.
Rogues and Redeemers depends on how big your Pair Up katamaris are by the final battle. If they can roll up the Himalayas, you can do this without a grind.

Series 2 DLC is mixed.:

Scramble DLC is as doable as the Einherjar stuff. But, you come to these for conversations, not fighting, and it isn't worth it if you aren't using a cast of characters who can make a lot of chatter.
Future Past- You don't need to use any of the parents/breed children to get the good ending here. I was able to achieve it on Hard on a females-only run where Chrom married Robin and I made zero other pairings. I say this b/c it means you don't need to waste time grinding up parents you didn't use in the main story. I forget the strength of enemies here relative to the maingame however.
- FP2 will be cake because Yarne and Brady are safe from the start, and Owain and Inigo in my experience will be faced with only enemies tailored to their base stats.
- For FP3, you need to 1-turn this map via Rescue, Dance, Pair Up, and Galeforce to win it with the unparented kids alive.
- FP1 is the one hard fight, because you can't Rescue Nah and Noire- IIRC the two girls who could be ORKO'ed over a wall by a bow or tome. You have to rush in units to block the spots where said over-the-wall murder could happen. Kjelle and Cynthia can wait for your salvation, the Risen attacking them are weak.
Path of the Grandmaster is the challenge DLC, so I'd say do it, except for the fact that Apotheosis at a minimum will force you to grind, a lot.

Spotpass Paralogues... Aversa's is cheesable, and Gangrel's and Emmeryn's should be doable. Maybe Yen'fay's and Walhart's too. Priam's is the big if. Leave out fighting the summonable Einherjar forces, or using them as units or buying their stuff- because Celica's Gale is too good among other things.

For Fates, the majority of it is fixed maps, a benefit because it means you don't have to grind or anything. Heirs of Fate and Hidden Truths are feasible, but I'd say skip the royal tanlines.

It'd be mean to force you to buy SoV's DLC, though the Cipher quartet are neat to play with. The Rise of the Deliverance is a maybe too b/c story and it too is fixed maps, yet it ain't worth dropping money for this thread.

Ashen Wolves for 3H would give you more characters and classes to mess with in the maingame, and its maps are fixed. If you opted to do HoF and HT, then no reason not to do this. If you didn't do those, don't do this.

Icelerate · June 4, 2020

3 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

It doesn't stop them from being good, if they are. They can't be criticized for bad supports if real supports do not exist in their game. No supports removes a counterweight to some extent in case their story development is bad. But if their story characterization is good, then it doesn't matter that supports don't exist.

Leif in my mind is already a moderately "good" lord, he therefore doesn't need supports to be what he already is. But if Leif had supports, that -wishfully- could make him a great lord.

If you wanted me to compare a lord with supports to one without. Then I would say if two lords are 8/10 in story, and one has supports and is an 8/10 there, and the other lord had no supports, then I'd pick the one with supports- because they have more of the same quality. A 10/10 story & 3/10 support lord vs. a 8/10 story no supports lord would be trickier to determine.

So outside of your mind he is not?

I think supports matter more for side characters than story characters. Micaiah is a great lord with or without supports, for example.

Interdimensional Observer · June 4, 2020

17 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

So outside of your mind he is not?

That was a phrasing for "in my opinion". Leif has a good core story and he shows some emotion and development, thats a positive. Adding more dramatic weight to certain moments in his story would be very helpful- the abandoning of Tahra comes to mind.

20 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

I think supports matter more for side characters than story characters. Micaiah is a great lord with or without supports, for example.

Because supports are...

optional,
you can't get them all in a single playthrough in a pre-Awakening game,
and there are too many to pay attention to them all in Awakening and beyond minus SoV,

...a lord should get the majority of their development in the main story. You can't miss story development, you can miss supports.

Icelerate · June 4, 2020

7 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

That was a phrasing for "in my opinion". Leif has a good core story and he shows some emotion and development, thats a positive. Adding more dramatic weight to certain moments in his story would be very helpful- the abandoning of Tahra comes to mind.

I know it is your opinion but I did want to see whether you think good characterization actually exists outside of the human mind. I don't think good and bad writing exist outside of the human mind as it is just a bunch of meaningless letters in that case. Leif isn't the only lord without supports that shows some emotion and development.

Eltosian Kadath · June 4, 2020

1 hour ago, Icelerate said:

I've seen far more from her than Roy and Seliph, for example.

Did you even play Genealogy of the Holy War?

(sorry for using quotes from the old translations, I don't know where to get the translation script for the Project Naga Patch, and don't have saves in all the places I wanted to quote)

Spoiler

Celice:
“I think Skasaher is holding back because of me. I’m sure Shanan gave him strict orders to keep me out of danger. Because if Shanan hadn’t, he would’ve been the first one out there. He is just itching to get into battle.”

Lakche:
“Oh, that’s right. I completely forgot about you, sir.”

Celice:
“Lakche, I’m not a kid anymore! I can fight just as well as any of you! Anyway, we can’t just turn our backs on Tilnanogue. The people here have done far too much for us already.”

Skasaher:
“Yes, but we can’t just…”

Celice:
“Look, we’ve no time to argue! Rana, I want you to stay in town. We’ll be heading east to the sandy basin to confront the enemy.”

Rana:
“Sir, I’m not staying behind!”

Celice:
“I’m not going let you get yourself killed out there. Nuns and warfare DO NOT mix!”

Rana:
“Nuns can fight too, you know. I feel just as strongly about this as Lakche does. The imperial troops are becoming crueler with each passing day. It’s dangerous just to be a girl anymore! But I don’t plan to go down without a fight. I have my own means of warfare!”

Celice:
“I’m sorry, Rana. You’re right. This is everyone’s battle. Alright. We should get going. It’s hard to say how this is going to turn out… But let’s give it everything we’ve got!”

Rana:
“Sorry if I got a little outta hand, sir.”

Celice:
“Haha! No problem… Okay. Skasaher, Lakche, Rana… Let’s move!”

Spoiler

Celice:
“Yuria, I’m sure you’ll be sad with Levin gone, but don’t you worry. I’ll keep you safe till he gets back. Actually, I’m not all that strong yet… But you’ll see! I’ll be strong enough to protect everybody here someday! And then I can save all the people from the empire! I’ll be strong someday… just like my father was.”

Yuria:
“Celice…”

Spoiler

Levin:
“Uprisings have sprung up all over the continent, but not one has gotten anywhere. None of them stand a chance against the empire. The world is in desperate need of a saviour. And I think that you’re the one, Celice. You are the only one who has the power to pull it off.”

Celice:
“Whoa! Wait a minute! I have nothing near what it takes!”

Levin:
“It’s your duty, Celice. You are Empress Diadora’s firstborn son… the older brother to Prince Yurius. As a direct descendant of Saint Heim, you have an obligation to lead your crusaders and rid the world of darkness.”

Celice:
“Yeah, but…”

Levin:
“Celice, you DO have what it takes. You just don’t realise it yet. You’re of Baldo lineage. Once you get a hold of the Holy Tailfing, you’ll have enough power to reach the heavens.”

Celice:
“But…”

Levin:
“Celice, it’s the will of the gods. Your father was a victim of foul play. And now you must finish what he started. You need to stay focused, Celice. You got me?”

Celice:
“…Yes, I do. If this is my destiny, I shall go forth wherever the gods lead me.”

Levin:
“You’ll come to realise that fate is susceptible to change. It doesn’t centre on one person. Sigurd left much behind for you. Most importantly his friends… I being one of them. You can credit your father’s kindness for bringing so many good people to your side.”

Celice:
“My father was loved and trusted by so many. I just hope I can live up to that.”

Spoiler

Levin:
“Celice, you’ve made it to Melgen. Lenster is just up ahead.”

Celice:
“Levin, is this war ever going to end? I have a hard time believing Prince Ishtor or his general were bad people…”

Levin:
“Yeah, but don’t forget that they both supported a ruthless tyrannical leader. They were without a doubt the enemy in this scenario. Celice, this is war! It’s not just about hatred or resentment.”

Celice:
“…Yeah, I suppose.”

Levin:
“Haha! You’ve got a good heart, Celice. You just need to learn to let go sometimes. We’ve got a rescue mission in Lenster we need to focus on.”

Spoiler

Patty:
“Ulp… you got me. I used to be a thief, but I’ve given that all up. So I’m here to help you guys out now.”

Celice:
“You can’t be serious. This is an army. It’s no place for you.”

Patty:
“You sure about that? You guys have no money, right? But you gotta have money to fight. That’s where I come in. I can get you all the money you need!”

Celice:
“Yeah, but we don’t want your money if it’s stolen.”

Patty:
“Sir, where do you think the imperial troops get all their gold? They steal it from the villagers! I’m just tryin’ to take it back from them! …What’s so wrong with that!?”

Celice:
“…I’m sorry, Patty. You’ve got a good point.”

Spoiler

Celice:
“Thank you, Prince Leaf. People often say our fathers were two good friends who shared identical fates. And your mother was my aunt… …They both gave their lives while trying to help to my father. Prince Leaf, I can’t begin to express my sorrow to you.”

Leaf:
“I’m very proud of my parents, sir. And I greatly admire your father for all he did. It’s Emperor Alvis and King Trabant that I detest!!”

Celice:
“That’s exactly how I feel. I just want to respect our father’s dying wishes and return peace to the land. Do join us, Prince Leaf.”

Spoiler

Celice:
“What? You’re the son of King Eltshan!?”

Aless:
“That’s right! The very Eltshan that your father murdered! My mother went to her grave with that over her head! How does that make you feel!?”

Celice:
“Really… But I thought our fathers were friends. I know things ended horribly, but I don’t think our fathers ever resented each other.”

Aless:
“That can’t be… How could I have grown up believing the exact opposite to be true!”

Celice:
“Aless, we need some time to work this out. Why don’t you come with us for a little while? Please consider it. Look, I hold King Eltshan in the same high regard as my father did.”

Aless:
“…Well, I suppose I could tag along for a while and see where things go. But if I find out you’ve been lying to me, I will gladly take your life in place of Sigurd’s! You follow me, Celice!?”

Celice:
“You do how you please. You just don’t understand how ecstatic our fathers would be at us meeting like this!”

Spoiler

Mana:
“Sir Celice, you saw that mage, didn’t you? She just vanished into thin air! I just sense an evil power at work here that may just be beyond all of us!”

Celice:
“Mana, to be honest, I’m scared too. Some nights I can’t even get any sleep… Some days I wish I could just pack up and get out of here! But I can’t… and I won’t. You saw the people at Alster and Conote. They cried with joy when we liberated them! That just goes to show how cruel the empire’s rule has been on them. We can’t just leave things the way they are. We need to help out any way we can.”

Mana:
“I’m sorry, sir. I didn’t mean to make you worry. I’ll try a little harder. But please be extra careful, okay? If we ever lost you…..”

Celice:
“Thanks, Mana. I… I feel the same for you.”

Spoiler

Celice:
“But Levin, the empire is our enemy. Is there any reason we should take on Thracia, too?”

Levin:
“The reasons’ll become apparent if you handle this properly. This battle is already well underway, Celice. There’s no going back.”

Celice:
“But the dragon knight on that mountain top back there… She looked so sad. The thought of having to fight her as well…”

Levin:
“Celice! Get over it!! This is war. If you can’t handle the heat, then you belong back at Tilnanogue!”

Celice:
“Levin…”

Oifey:
“Levin, his Majesty is a little tired, it’s unnecessary to mention that…”

Levin:
“I know. But everyone is doing their best. We don’t have time to stay here doing nothing. We have to return to Grandbell as fast as possible and stop Loputousu’s resurrection. Otherwise, the world will be destroyed.”

Celice:
“Oifey, Levin is right, I was wrong. If we cannot avoid battle, then it is our duty to give sense to this battle. Let’s go, Levin, Oifey,I do not want to turn my back away from the path I have chosen anymore!”

Spoiler

Shanan:
“Celice, you’ve gotten seriously tough. It’s no wonder, since you are the son of Sir Sigurd and Diadora… I’ve nothing more I can show you.”

Celice:
“I’ve got you to thank for everything, Shanan. You’re the one who brought me up with the sword.”

Shanan:
“Yeah, right. Hey, forget I even…”

Celice:
“Are you alright, Shanan? You look tired. I wish I could give you some of my strength…”

Shanan:
“Hey, don’t treat me like some old man. I can still run circles around you, you know…”

Celice:
“Er… sorry. I didn’t mean it like that.”

Shanan:
“Nah, don’t sweat it. It’s kind of you all the same.”

Spoiler

Oifey:
“Your Highness, the Duchy of Chalphy is just beyond Miletos Channel.”

Celice:
“My father’s homeland… Oifey, you must be glad to be getting back.”

Oifey:
“I am. I have so many memories from that place. Sir Sigurd and Princess Ethlin… Noish, Alec and all the younger soldiers I hung around with. They were all such good people.”

Celice:Hm… I can’t imagine. I’ve never even been there.

Oifey:
“That’s right. You were born in Agustria and then grew up in Silesia and Isaac. Come to think of it, you’ve never set foot anywhere in Grandbell, have you…”

Celice:
“Yeah. I feel I’ve cheated the people somehow by me being a Prince of Grandbell and all.”

Oifey:
“I know it’s difficult, but try to understand what they’ve had to go through. The atrocity they’ve suffered is beyond words. That’s why they desperately await the coming of their saviour.”

Celice:
“And that’s supposed to be me?”

Oifey:
“Yes, it is. They’ve been praying for the second coming of Sigurd the Hero. They believe he has returned as the fabled child born of himself and Empress Diadora.”

Celice:
“The fabled child… People scare me at times, Oifey, looking at me like I’m a god or something.”

Oifey:Just see it as a sign of how brutal the empire’s rule has been on them. Even in Miletos children are being abducted. Parents who resist are murdered outright. It’s truly the work of evil forces… not of mankind.

Spoiler

Celice:
“M, mother!? Mother, is that you?”

Diadora:
“…Ah, Levin has done such a fine job with you. …Celice, always treasure those in your presence. Honour each and every one of them.”

Celice:
“Y, yes, mother! Hey, I slew Emperor Alvis! I’ve finally avenged father’s death!”

Diadora:
“…I see. …What then of Yurius and Yuria?”

Celice:
“Yurius and Yuria? Do you know where they are!?”

Diadora:
“…”

Celice:
“Mother?”

Sigurd:
“…Celice…”

Celice:
“Who’s th-“
Father? Is that you!?

Sigurd:
“…Celice, don’t let Alvis’ death go to your head. His defeat wasn’t by your hand alone.”

Celice:
“Huh? Father, what’s that supposed to mean?”

Sigurd:
“…Get to know the people’s sorrow. Your reality and theirs are still worlds apart. …If you can’t accomplish that, Celice, then this whole war has been for nothing.”

Celice:
“F, father! Please… wait a second!!”

???:
“…Take care of yourself, my son.”

Celice:
“Mother…”

Spoiler

Celice : I don’t know how I could ever thank you, Shanan. Thank you for being there for me all along.

Shanan : When I was young, I was asked by your father Sir Sigurd to take care of Lady Diadora. But I failed, and she was lost. It was all my fault. And I couldn’t forget what happened then to this day…I should really be apologizing to you instead…

Celice : No, it’s because of you and the people of Isaac that I live this long…Isaac is my home, and that’s how it’s going to stay, no matter what happens. I’m never going to forget.

Shanan : If they hear those words, the people are going to be so glad, aren’t they…?

Spoiler

Celice : No, no, no, Prince Aless. Chancing to meet you gave me nothing but happiness. After all, aren’t our father the incomparable best friends among best friends? Even though they ran into more than their share of misfortunes, they still believed in each other toward the very end. Let’s make the dream our fathers failed to turn into reality come true, Prince Aless. Let the two of us join hands and guide the world toward that dream.

Spoiler

Celice : [charname]...the task that lies ahead of you is the heaviest of them all...forgive me.

Son : No, sir. As the only surviving heir of the Velthomer dukedom, I can’t face away from atoning for my family’s heinous crimes. That’s my father Duke Azel’s wish as well.

Celice : [charname], I myself bear hatred toward Lord Alvis no longer. He was only swept along with fate, a sad man. I feel for him. Please accept my utmost condolences.

Spoiler

Oyfaye : Well then, Lord Celice, I’ll be making toward Chalphy.

Celice : Eh!? Why, Oyfaye!? I still need you! I thought you’d always stay beside me!

Oyfaye : No, my lord. It’s time that you find your own road and walk it with pride. And so, I’ll be protecting dukedome of Chalphy in your stead.

Celice : Chalphy...I, I understand. Your words are right as always, Oyfaye. Since I’m not inheriting the family home, there’s no one else with Chalphy’s bloodline but you. I can’t leave it just like that...no matter how much it hurts.

Oyfaye : Please be at ease, my lord. I shall be protecting you from my place at Chalphy, myself.

Celice : Oyfaye. For me, who’d never known my own father, you’re the closest thing to one that I’ve got. You taught me everything I know about tactics, chivalry, honor, and kindness...I can’t find words enough to say how much I thank you...

Oyfaye : Lord Celice, I, too, am in great debt to your father. Lord Sigurd took me in when I was left alone, orphaned, and even took care of me like his own brother. And even then...I wasn’t there with him to the last, to see with my own eyes...I’m such a fool.

Celice : Oyfaye...don’t cry...it’s because of me, it’s all because of me...

Oyfaye : Yes, sir...please excuse me for my behavior...well then, Lord Celice, please...

Celice : Mmm, you take care of yourself too, Oyfaye.

Look at Seliph (or Celice by old translation here), he expresses things too emotionally complex for the potrayal of Eirika, like: fears, self doubts, aspirations for the future, or even any emotion at all regarding his/her parent's death.

Ugh, I can't believe I let your bombastic over the top disparaging of better characters drag me into a talk about the blandula twins.

6 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Oh goodness, should I do all the Awakening DLC? I mean, given how quickly I expect to blast through the game, maybe that would be best to truly explore everything the game has to offer. But like, am I actually going to have to buy all the Echoes DLC too, then? That's the only one I haven't bought any DLC for, because... well... yeah.

If you really need filler content I guess this isn't the worst, but I have never been a fan of DLC.

5 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Incidentally, I thought I'd ask, just for the hell of it: how would you guys rank these first 7 games I've ranked so far?

I have a plan for at some point streaming the first three games some time in the future, and thus have put off playing them, so I will just go through 4-7. I am very tempted to add FE8 as well, but will restrain myself.

Spoiler

Difficulty:

FE6

FE5

FE4

FE7

Ironmanability:

FE6

FE5

FE4

FE7

I will say that we have different things we look for in games to ironman. The ideal ironman game for me is one difficult enought that units might die, with a robust enough recruitment list to sustain losses, without too many arbitrary game over conditions. Also I will add that I haven't tried to ironman FE4 before, so its placement is far more tentative.

Usability:

FE7

FE6

FE4

FE5

Depth:

FE4

FE5

FE6

FE7

Balance:

FE6

FE5

FE7

FE4

Pacing:

FE4

FE7

FE5

FE6

Writing:

FE4

FE5

FE7

FE6

Music:

FE5

FE4

FE7

FE6

Presentation:

FE7

FE4

FE6

FE5

Replayability:

FE4

FE7

FE6

FE5

Overall:

FE4

FE5

FE7

FE6

Alastor15243 · June 4, 2020

7 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Awakening's Series 1 DLC- the Einherjar old games stuff- is poor on the story side of things. As for its gameplay, leaving out the pay to win two/three maps:

Champions of Yore is very easily doable ingame.

Lost Bloodlines can be done easily too, but a few phantasms have appreciably higher stats that make the exact timing of when to do (on Hard, not Lunatic) this harder. Sometime into the Valm arc is feasible- but at the very start, or later?

Smash Brethren ought to be achievable during the Grima arc that ends things.

Rogues and Redeemers depends on how big your Pair Up katamaris are by the final battle. If they can roll up the Himalayas, you can do this without a grind.

Series 2 DLC is mixed.:

Scramble DLC is as doable as the Einherjar stuff. But, you come to these for conversations, not fighting, and it isn't worth it if you aren't using a cast of characters who can make a lot of chatter.

Future Past- You don't need to use any of the parents/breed children to get the good ending here. I was able to achieve it on Hard on a females-only run where Chrom married Robin and I made zero other pairings. I say this b/c it means you don't need to waste time grinding up parents you didn't use in the main story. I forget the strength of enemies here relative to the maingame however.
FP2 will be cake because Yarne and Brady are safe from the start, and Owain and Inigo in my experience will be faced with only enemies tailored to their base stats.

For FP3, you need to 1-turn this map via Rescue, Dance, Pair Up, and Galeforce to win it with the unparented kids alive.

FP1 is the one hard fight, because you can't Rescue Nah and Noire- IIRC the two girls who could be ORKO'ed over a wall by a bow or tome. You have to rush in units to block the spots where said over-the-wall murder could happen. Kjelle and Cynthia can wait for your salvation, the Risen attacking them are weak.

Path of the Grandmaster is the challenge DLC, so I'd say do it, except for the fact that Apotheosis at a minimum will force you to grind, a lot.

Spotpass Paralogues... Aversa's is cheesable, and Gangrel's and Emmeryn's should be doable. Maybe Yen'fay's and Walhart's too. Priam's is the big if. Leave out fighting the summonable Einherjar forces, or using them as units or buying their stuff- because Celica's Gale is too good among other things.

For Fates, the majority of it is fixed maps, a benefit because it means you don't have to grind or anything. Heirs of Fate and Hidden Truths are feasible, but I'd say skip the royal tanlines.

It'd be mean to force you to buy SoV's DLC, though the Cipher quartet are neat to play with. The Rise of the Deliverance is a maybe too b/c story and it too is fixed maps, yet it ain't worth dropping money for this thread.

Ashen Wolves for 3H would give you more characters and classes to mess with in the maingame, and its maps are fixed. If you opted to do HoF and HT, then no reason not to do this. If you didn't do those, don't do this.

I appreciate the thorough rundown, but I actually have literally all the DLC except the non-free ones for Echoes, so I know most of this already. The estimates of when the Awakening DLC will be doable were very helpful, though!

8 hours ago, Icelerate said:

I think your comparison with Lyn is actually a pretty good argument. But to say Eirika shows little emotion, personality and is too passive in the story seems rather preposterous.

I've seen far more from her than Roy and Seliph, for example.

The double-spoilers on all of those quotes made them a bit annoying to quote back, so I'll simply say I don't feel what you quoted is nearly enough, because again, my main issue is that this is all we get from her. Since she's not as proactive and competent in her own story as others are, making her keep so much of what she's feeling all to herself as well really takes her potential to be interesting and hacks it off at the knees.

4 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

I have a plan for at some point streaming the first three games some time in the future, and thus have put off playing them, so I will just go through 4-7. I am very tempted to add FE8 as well, but will restrain myself.

Hide contents

Difficulty:

FE6

FE5

FE4

FE7

Ironmanability:

FE6

FE5

FE4

FE7

I will say that we have different things we look for in games to ironman. The ideal ironman game for me is one difficult enought that units might die, with a robust enough recruitment list to sustain losses, without too many arbitrary game over conditions. Also I will add that I haven't tried to ironman FE4 before, so its placement is far more tentative.

Usability:

FE7

FE6

FE4

FE5

Depth:

FE4

FE5

FE6

FE7

Balance:

FE6

FE5

FE7

FE4

Pacing:

FE4

FE7

FE5

FE6

Writing:

FE4

FE5

FE7

FE6

Music:

FE5

FE4

FE7

FE6

Presentation:

FE7

FE4

FE6

FE5

Replayability:

FE4

FE7

FE6

FE5

Overall:

FE4

FE5

FE7

FE6

Fascinating! The one thing I find most surprising is that you put FE4 on top of pacing. What's your reasoning there?

Edited June 4, 2020 by Alastor15243

Eltosian Kadath · June 4, 2020

17 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Fascinating! The one thing I find most surprising is that you put FE4 on top of pacing. What's your reasoning there?

This is difficult to fully describe, but I have found the way it is paced to be the best game in the series for encouraging me to move beyond tactics, and into strategy. The large maps, and ponderous movements of the sizeable formations makes the question of where a battle between forces will occur more of a choice, and its the only fire emblem game where I have ever wondered things like is that cluster of forests sufficient to anchor my flank, or should I spread my line thinner to counter such a maneuver. When an enemy commander breaks off for more reinforcements the question of whether to regroup and healing, or charging ahead in pursuit suddenly becomes a question. Once I stopped delaying the seize to reposition, suddenly I had to think beyond the next castle, as their position when I reach the seize is effectively their starting position when facing the next castle. Plus the pacing of the gameplay has its own impact on the story as well, the massive maps give its story added grandeur (and connectivity a sense of cohesion); the clashes between NPC and enemies shows us that Sigurd's tale is not only a small part of the picture, but emphasize that he isn't fully in control of his own story, while second generation eschews such spectacles, as Seliph's rebellion is the center of the second generation's events driving the empire back by their own actions.

Shadow Mir · June 4, 2020

5 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

I have a plan for at some point streaming the first three games some time in the future, and thus have put off playing them, so I will just go through 4-7. I am very tempted to add FE8 as well, but will restrain myself.

Reveal hidden contents

Difficulty:

FE6

FE5

FE4

FE7

Ironmanability:

FE6

FE5

FE4

FE7

I will say that we have different things we look for in games to ironman. The ideal ironman game for me is one difficult enought that units might die, with a robust enough recruitment list to sustain losses, without too many arbitrary game over conditions. Also I will add that I haven't tried to ironman FE4 before, so its placement is far more tentative.

Usability:

FE7

FE6

FE4

FE5

Depth:

FE4

FE5

FE6

FE7

Balance:

FE6

FE5

FE7

FE4

Pacing:

FE4

FE7

FE5

FE6

Writing:

FE4

FE5

FE7

FE6

Music:

FE5

FE4

FE7

FE6

Presentation:

FE7

FE4

FE6

FE5

Replayability:

FE4

FE7

FE6

FE5

Overall:

FE4

FE5

FE7

FE6

What I find most odd is that you put FE6 at the top in terms of balance and ironmannability; how come? Because I think it fails miserably on both those accounts...

Alastor15243 · June 4, 2020

Sacred Stones Day 29: Chapter 18EPH

So this is the gorgon chapter. Y'know, when I was a kid, it always felt like there was more... space... between the “reveal” that it's Fomortiis in control of Lyon's body and the true reveal that in reality, Lyon fused with him. But it's just one chapter?

...Maybe I used this as a grinding point as a kid? Who knows. But I feel there should've been one more chapter, one with at least an indirect encounter with Lyon, before this happens.

...Oh. So this moment with L'arachel, talking about whether or not Lyon can be saved, happens here? Huh. I could've sworn there was some kind of moment that happened at Rausten Castle later.

I find it curious and a little annoying that he's having this conversation and resolving that he has a duty to kill “Lyon” to put him out of his misery... after he had already set out to do that earlier, before he even had this information.

Also, I honestly wish these guys would explain what they've been planning to do with the Sacred Stone. It feels like they don't plan on using it at all when fighting Lyon, like they instinctively know that there'll be another fight afterwards that they'd then use it on, and they aren't using it for the first one because... plot?

Anyway, this is a pretty fun concept for a chapter. Extremely dangerous, but clearly-telegraphed reinforcements that you can interrupt if you're fast enough.

...Though I question the game's use of the word “comely” to describe gorgons in their class description. They... look pretty hideous, both in their sprites and their “portraits”.

Anyway, the objective here is to advance as far as I can as quickly as I can, making sure I have a healer with each group, so that once the eggs start threatening to hatch, I can get to as many of them as possible in time. I'm hoping to fight as few of these gorgons as I possibly can. To that end, I'll be having Cormag and Myrrh fly around. Myrrh will be much slower and rather costly to use, so she's mostly just an emergency weapon in case I need two fliers.

I've got a shortbow in this continuity, so I'll be having Innes use that on some eggs if he can in order to train up his weapon rank.

Let's go.

Since they're a good source of exp, and most of my units in need of training are the ones who aren't as fast, I'm gonna leave some of these closer eggs intact. I only kill one with Seth because it was blocking the path forward.

...Well, that's disappointing. Fliers can't fly across the black chasm. Not sure why. Speaking of which though, did you guys know that fliers are slowed down if they fly over ballistae in FE6? I just discovered that by accident during my reverse recruitment playthrough of FE6 I'm doing for fun. Reverse recruitment runs are wild, man.

…

Some of them hatch in a single turn. Noted.

Also noted: They attack the same turn they spawn. Either one of these things on their own would be absolutely fine, but together, well... let's just say this could have gone very badly for me if I was a bit more daring with my unit placement and a bit less lucky.

Demon surge's attack animation is really cool though.

I personally wish that these eggs wouldn't wait to start hatching, and just spawn with higher HP. That would make it more reasonable to plan ahead. But looks like we'll have to make do.

Also, it looks like the healing rate of these eggs is inconsistent too, which is... profoundly annoying. This system is a lot less fair than I remember.

I do like that once they start hatching though, they turn white, so you don't have to check every single egg's HP each turn.

It also seems that since they all start with 5 HP, you can at least keep track of how fast they're hatching by looking at how much more than 5 HP they have when they turn white.

Bringing Rennac just in case reinforcements had stealable shit might have been a mistake. One of the gorgons had magic power so high that shadowshot brought him down to 1 HP. He's my only thief left. If he dies, then as per the rules I laid out, the ironman dies with him. Hell, I'm tempted to put somebody on rescue duty to shield him just in case an egg hatches with shadowshot in his range.

I managed to assassinate the gorgon boss by diving in with Cormag and a silver lance, leaving me free to destroy the rest of the eggs at my relative leisure.

...Or not. More reinforcements arrive, and the eggs start hatching at an alarming rate all at once.

The hatching of two gorgons was unavoidable, but thankfully stone missed both times. I'm gonna have to take some more gambles to take care of them, because stone is 1-3 range and I can't even counter-attack both of the gorgons who tried to stone Seth and Franz because of the thick ledge between the gorgons and Seth and Franz on the northwest part of the map. The stone status is pretty nasty. Sleep plus an automatic 30% crit rate among... I'm not sure what else. I'm pretty sure you can't dodge. Thankfully Seth is pretty tanky.

Alright, there. Ephraim managed to avoid the risk of a stone counter-attack by using Siegmund to one-shot the last remaining gorgon.

Honestly... initial gripes aside, this was a pretty fun map. Short, but exciting. I just wish the game gave a better sense of when eggs will start to hatch, so you can have better time management. But going through this “been-a-while blind”, this was pretty fun!

Also, while I didn't like the whole “ambush spawning” first gorgon at the entrance, I like that they at least use that to spell out what will happen if you let any more eggs hatch.

Hmmm...

Now here's something interesting. I remembered this scene differently, but the way Ephraim gets trapped by Lyon is actually the result of foolishness and emotional manipulation as well, just like was infamously the case with Eirika. Not to say they're equally egregious (the way I remember it, it was way, way more idiotic the way it happened with Eirika), but Ephraim wasn't blameless like I remember him being. He wasn't ambushed or anything. He ran off on his own, and suffered consequences for it.

But it's strange that Lyon can touch the Sacred Stone with his bare hands and suffer no consequences. Surely, if that were possible, and if he didn't need other people to do it for him, he would have done some of this work himself, right? Especially with the whole teleportation thing.

...Okay, uh...

...The big reveal that Lyon fought back and fused with the Demon King...

...it's a lot less cool than I remember it being.

For one thing, it's just... very, very poorly and awkwardly explained. At times it honestly feels like a jumble of sentences in no particular order. Also, I could've sworn I remembered an explanation for why Lyon pretended to be completely consumed other than “I thought it would be cool”. I remembered Lyon saying something about, given all of his inferiority complex issues, wanting to find out how Ephraim “really” felt about him, something he'd obviously be more comfortable “revealing” once he thought Lyon was no longer alive. The things he says before revealing himself can still be interpreted as that being what he was trying to do, but I remember him clearly saying it before, and here... he doesn't.

Also... this... barely feels like a difference here. This feels less like Lyon fused with the Demon King, and more like that time in Doctor Who when the weeping angels hijacked a minor character's consciousness in order to communicate with the Doctor, using his polite and deadpan tones to say the horrible things the Weeping Angels want to convey to him. Like, the key thing is that it doesn't change any of his actions in the story, or the end result. Not even a little. He's still going to revive the Demon King, knowing that the power he gets isn't going to be used for what he wants it to be used for.

Like, I'm not even sure how to describe my confusion here. I don't really get what I just read.

But one thing I'm gathering from re-reading it is that... Lyon knew what he was about to do would get him exposed to the Demon King, and he saw himself fighting back as it happened, so he went and did it, and... thinks he succeeded in fighting Fomortiis off? And... in a sense I suppose he must have, if Fomortiis isn't taking direct control like he normally would. Unless the Demon King just can't take direct control in this version of canon.

...Honestly, it's still really confusing and vague and annoying. I wish they did something more with this concept. Actually...

...No, nevermind, I'm not gonna keep theorizing whether Eirika or Ephraim Route came first. I keep getting conflicting clues every new time I do this. But to be clear, I was thinking about saying something about how if this were the original idea for the nature of Lyon, they probably wouldn't have felt so forced to make him act exactly how the Demon King would from here on out.

...Oh wow, they actually gave Ephraim an alternate facial expression here!

...Well...

...Okay. I guess that's the end of the chapter. We'll finish off the week tomorrow by seeing this with Eirika then.

Stay safe, everyone.

Interdimensional Observer · June 4, 2020

5 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

Like, the key thing is that it doesn't change any of his actions in the story, or the end result. Not even a little. He's still going to revive the Demon King, knowing that the power he gets isn't going to be used for what he wants it to be used for.

Like, I'm not even sure how to describe my confusion here. I don't really get what I just read.

But one thing I'm gathering from re-reading it is that... Lyon knew what he was about to do would get him exposed to the Demon King, and he saw himself fighting back as it happened, so he went and did it, and... thinks he succeeded in fighting Fomortiis off? And... in a sense I suppose he must have, if Fomortiis isn't taking direct control like he normally would. Unless the Demon King just can't take direct control in this version of canon.

Yes, it's a more subtle manipulation I'd say. The Demon King is still in control, but Lyon is allowed to think he is. He can't see the gaping holes in his plans' logic- how does resurrecting the Demon King aid in his ultimate goal? He can't see that nor realize its very bad that it doesn't help, because the Demon King won't allow it.

This remains better to me than Eirika!Lyon, the "Oh I was weak, the Demon King has seized control I can't do anything" is a more common possession trope, and makes Lyon something of a pity magnet. "Poor fool" describes Ephraim!Lyon better, whatever his noble intent, he is lost now, but unapologetic about what he has become. Forcefully possessed, but proud, which is stupidly hypocritical to be.

I don't see an ingame reason why Eph!Lyon turned out one way and Eir!Lyon another, it's all because the writers wanted the divide I'd say. Soft Eirika gets a tortured boyfriend, hard Ephraim gets a resolved and talented friend turned foe.

Shadow Mir · June 4, 2020

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

The stone status is pretty nasty. Sleep plus an automatic 30% crit rate among... I'm not sure what else. I'm pretty sure you can't dodge.

Yeah, that about sums it up. Thankfully, it hasn't been seen since. At least, not in a capacity where it's used on you.

Icelerate · June 4, 2020

11 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Look at Seliph (or Celice by old translation here), he expresses things too emotionally complex for the potrayal of Eirika, like: fears, self doubts, aspirations for the future, or even any emotion at all regarding his/her parent's death.

Ugh, I can't believe I let your bombastic over the top disparaging of better characters drag me into a talk about the blandula twins.

Aspirations for the future?

Spoiler

Eirika:
“These are the ancient weapons of our ancestors–the weapons of heroes. They were enshrined generations ago, to be used only by the king… and only in times of dire need. Such an awful power they possess, and yet we need them to restore peace. I’ve seen enough of the horrors of war, but I can’t turn my back on it. If we merely turn our eyes away, we surrender our world to atrocity. And so, I must fight. I’ll do whatever I must do to bring back the peace we once knew.”

Self doubts?

Spoiler

Eirika:
“L’Arachel. I… What should I do? Lyon was one of my dearest friends… I feel so helpless. There’s nothing I can do to help him…”

Emotion regarding the loss of loved ones?

Spoiler

Eirika:
“I know you mean well, Your Majesty. However, I have lost my father, and my twin brother is in peril. My brother, he is a part of me… I cannot rest here in peace while he risks his life.”

Eirika got herself captured because she did not want a repeat of what happened to her father to Ephraim.

The irony sure is strong with this one. Where have I made any bombastic over the top disparagement of better characters in this thread? I hate it when someone IRL accuses me of something without evidence, let alone a nobody like you, so I want clear proof of what you accuse of me is true. If anything, you are projecting your own emotions onto me.

16 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Did you even play Genealogy of the Holy War?

I did a year ago. I did miss out on a few Seliph conversations though because he didn't talk to the old man to get Tyrfing and he didn't talk to Sigurd and Deirdre or even Arvis either. I did like his boss conversation with Manfroy though.

On 5/26/2020 at 7:45 PM, Alastor15243 said:

If you're referring to "Factions... you're saying that the whole of Carcino has not betrayed Frelia?", then I'd like to point out that the way she says it suggests that she, exactly like Innes, believed that all of Carcino had betrayed Frelia before that conversation. There's no indication here that Eirika was swifter to accept the truth than Innes was. They just took turns questioning him and came to the conclusion around the same time. In fact, if you want to be really pedantic, Innes is the first one to say anything to the effect of "I believe you".

You're right about them coming to the conclusion after Klimt's apologies. But Eirika phrased it in a better way instead of taking a more accusatory tone like Innes did.

Alastor plays and ranks the whole series! Mission Complete! ...For now.

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