Seteth and Ingrid (and Crests) *minor spoilers*

[Dalquist]

Seteth really seems to understand Ingrid's situation and says all the right things to her.  Even after 3 play throughs these characters continue to grow on me . 

What I found most important here is Seteth's opinion of crests and the crest system.  In Edelgard's path she's convinced that the church knowingly uses crests to control Fodlan but considering Seteth's station in the church and his thoughts on crests I just don't see it.

 

[Strullemia]

Edelgard wasn't entirely wrong. Rhea did lie about the origin of crests and by not revealing the truth she in turn endorses the crest nobility system.

[timon]

Do keep in mind that Seteth doesn't know as much as he'd like of Rhea's practices, nor does he really agree (the last chapters before the timeskip show that quite clearly).

[Eltoshen]

Seteth is his own person despite taking Rhea's side. Edelgard's position is that she disagrees with Rhea manipulating people and ruling them through fear, which...she was right about. Rhea had people executed for rebelling against the Church and even made threats at various points throughout the game warning about what happens to people who defy the Church of Seiros (execution).

Also in Edelgard's route, Rhea's willing to set an entire city on fire right before the game ends.

Edited August 26, 2019 by Eltoshen

[Nihilem]

The quite tragic story of the game is that no one likes the crest system and if ....

Spoiler

Edelgard had not started her rebellion 3 of the 4 major powers in fodlan (Edelgard as Emperor, Dimitri as King of Ferghus and Byleth as Archbishop) would work on removing or at least dimishing it from society. Well at least if Byleth would find out the truth about the actual origins of crests. Just is quite likely because at some point would either Rhea/Seteth give him a proper history lessons ( because he is then head of their church) or Sothis would regain her memories.

Which is why I hope for a "golden path" - DLC were the protagonists of this story get their stuff together and try TALKING first for a moment..... and then unite against the actual enemy...

 

[Dalquist]

Just now, Nihilem said:

The quite tragic story of the game is that no one likes the crest system and if ....

  Reveal hidden contents

Edelgard had not started her rebellion 3 of the 4 major powers in fodlan (Edelgard as Emperor, Dimitri as King of Ferghus and Byleth as Archbishop) would work on removing or at least dimishing it from society. Well at least if Byleth would find out the truth about the actual origins of crests. Just is quite likely because at some point would either Rhea/Seteth give him a proper history lessons ( because he is then head of their church) or Sothis would regain her memories.

Which is why I hope for a "golden path" - DLC were the protagonists of this story get their stuff together and try TALKING first for a moment..... and then unite against the actual enemy...

 

Damn Nihilem, these are my thoughts exactly.  

[Hardric62]

22 minutes ago, Nihilem said:

The quite tragic story of the game is that no one likes the crest system and if ....

  Reveal hidden contents

Edelgard had not started her rebellion 3 of the 4 major powers in fodlan (Edelgard as Emperor, Dimitri as King of Ferghus and Byleth as Archbishop) would work on removing or at least dimishing it from society. Well at least if Byleth would find out the truth about the actual origins of crests. Just is quite likely because at some point would either Rhea/Seteth give him a proper history lessons ( because he is then head of their church) or Sothis would regain her memories.

Which is why I hope for a "golden path" - DLC were the protagonists of this story get their stuff together and try TALKING first for a moment..... and then unite against the actual enemy...

 

 

I would like this a lot, but odds are that things would to be... not so simple: 

Spoiler

Agarthans have already shown themselves quite willing to coup/assassinate people trying that sort of things. Edelgard and Dimitri would have had difficulties. And without Edelgard's... ruthless tactics, no Byleth in contact with Rhea, without talking about Sothis' awakening/fusion. And without that, Rhea isn't moving a micrometer.

 

And given her temperament, I don't see her taking the reforms that would be involved lying down, especially when they are taking an axe to something which has been at the heart of the Church's system for a thousand years now (yes, not in the Commandements, but they have been 'Goddess' Gifts', signs of legendary heroes... attacking them hurt the core of the Church's mythos). Too much to be removed easily without really major changes to the Church, that she literally cannot accept.

 

And there is the classical nobility likely not taking the sinking of their statu quo lying down (Rebellion of the Seven), or of the destruction of their 'Divine Mandate', for that matter (rulers have been associating religion to their rule for increased stability since the Antiquity. You can bet that the Crests have been twisted in some 'divine favor' proving them and only them are fit to rule Fodlan during these one thousand years).

 

[dragonlordsd]

2 hours ago, Hekselka said:

Edelgard wasn't entirely wrong. Rhea did lie about the origin of crests and by not revealing the truth she in turn endorses the crest nobility system.

Ok, this is a point that keeps getting brought up, but there are sources in the game that contradict it.

According to the books in the library, Rhea objected to the practice of having noble houses based around crests, but the nobility forced her to accept it in the past. This seems to make more sense, considering what crests are. I know Edelgard says that she endorses it, but are there any other sources that claim/demonstrate that?

[Nihilem]

42 minutes ago, Hardric62 said:

 

I would like this a lot, but odds are that things would to be... not so simple: 

  Hide contents

Agarthans have already shown themselves quite willing to coup/assassinate people trying that sort of things. Edelgard and Dimitri would have had difficulties. And without Edelgard's... ruthless tactics, no Byleth in contact with Rhea, without talking about Sothis' awakening/fusion. And without that, Rhea isn't moving a micrometer.

 

And given her temperament, I don't see her taking the reforms that would be involved lying down, especially when they are taking an axe to something which has been at the heart of the Church's system for a thousand years now (yes, not in the Commandements, but they have been 'Goddess' Gifts', signs of legendary heroes... attacking them hurt the core of the Church's mythos). Too much to be removed easily without really major changes to the Church, that she literally cannot accept.

 

And there is the classical nobility likely not taking the sinking of their statu quo lying down (Rebellion of the Seven), or of the destruction of their 'Divine Mandate', for that matter (rulers have been associating religion to their rule for increased stability since the Antiquity. You can bet that the Crests have been twisted in some 'divine favor' proving them and only them are fit to rule Fodlan during these one thousand years).

 

 

Spoiler

While I agree with TWSITD beeing a major problem in the scenario (and also the reason why I see them as the main enemy for fodlan) the other reasons I think can be argued against.

With Sothis in his head Byleths Path would sooner or later directly lead to Rhea. Sothis starts to become active the moment her power were needed to save Byleth from danger. Considering that he/she is a mercenary that could happen like literally any day. And from that point on it is only a matter of time until Sothis memories about the red canyon kick in or that Jeralt connects the dots. (If we assume that in this scenario Byleth would be more open to his/her father, because there is no one else in his/her life.)

And the problem with the nobles could also be dealt with considering that the new generation (meaning your classmates) mostly agree on the "crest are missused and the source of all evil" - mythos. And Edelgard had taken care of her nobels even before she started the war. Sure TWSITD most likely helped with that, but that shows that with proper support (e.g. church of seiros) the monarchs of the countires can make their subordinates follow the new course.

 

 

 

 

 

 

@dragonlordsd: Mind giving me a quote for that? Or at least which book you mean. Because I red them all and cant remember a passage like that.

Edited August 26, 2019 by Nihilem

[dragonlordsd]

17 minutes ago, Nihilem said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

While I agree with TWSITD beeing a major problem in the scenario (and also the reason why I see them as the main enemy for fodlan) the other reasons I think can be argued against.

With Sothis in his head Byleths Path would sooner or later directly lead to Rhea. Sothis starts to become active the moment her power were needed to save Byleth from danger. Considering that he/she is a mercenary that could happen like literally any day. And from that point on it is only a matter of time until Sothis memories about the red canyon kick in or that Jeralt connects the dots. (If we assume that in this scenario Byleth would be more open to his/her father, because there is no one else in his/her life.)

And the problem with the nobles could also be dealt with considering that the new generation (meaning your classmates) mostly agree on the "crest are missused and the source of all evil" - mythos. And Edelgard had taken care of her nobels even before she started the war. Sure TWSITD most likely helped with that, but that shows that with proper support (e.g. church of seiros) the monarchs of the countires can make their subordinates follow the new course.

@dragonlordsd: Mind giving me a quote for that? Or at least which book you mean. Because I red them all and cant remember a passage like that.

Yup yup, here's the full quote:

"The descendants of the heroes sought to use their ancestors power. In time they amassed land, titles, crests, and wealth, and used it all to set the land aflame. The goddess' power, intended to stem the flow of evil, became a tool of destruction, and all because of the greed of humanity. And the goddess, heartbroken, hid herself from the world."

Edit: there is a further more explicit quote, but it's not in the video I found. I can link to a video where a dude reads most of the books in the library if you want further proof.

Edited August 26, 2019 by dragonlordsd

[Nihilem]

2 minutes ago, dragonlordsd said:

Yup yup, here's the full quote:

"The descendants of the heroes sought to use their ancestors power. In time they amassed land, titles, crests, and wealth, and used it all to set the land aflame. The goddess' power, intended to stem the flow of evil, became a tool of destruction, and all because of the greed of humanity. And the goddess, heartbroken, hid herself from the world."

 

But that would more relate to Sothis and not Rhea ... but considering that she might have wrote the passage that might be an argument ...

[dragonlordsd]

6 minutes ago, Nihilem said:

But that would more relate to Sothis and not Rhea ... but considering that she might have wrote the passage that might be an argument ...

Ok, now here's the thing that I think we're going to be debating until dlc comes out or something.

On the one hand, I CAN'T find any explicit source in game that says Rhea "supports" the nobility. Edelgard claims that's true, but unless someone can point something out that I missed, we just have her word.

The library claims the opposite is true. Now, I don't believe Rhea herself wrote the books in the library, that's a little silly. But it is likely that followers of hers wrote them. So who do we believe?

Edit: a further piece of evidence I've been debating over is her confiscating the lance of Ruin, which should belong to house Gautier. That seems to fall in line with what the books say, though I feel that's a bit off topic.

Edited August 26, 2019 by dragonlordsd

[Nihilem]

22 minutes ago, dragonlordsd said:

The library claims the opposite is true. Now, I don't believe Rhea herself wrote the books in the library, that's a little silly. But it is likely that followers of hers wrote them. So who do we believe?

 

Well I think we can assume that she had at least a saying in the formulation. Seiros is the founder of the whole religion and the most important eye whitness to what actually happened. And the book you quoted (If I remember correctly) is basically the church of seiros version of the bible. I am pretty sure that every single word in it had at least the approval of her (if she didnt even write it herself). Which is - in my opinion - pretty good evidence that the church of the middle would not interfere with Edelgards plans to reform the crest sytem. If she would not combine it with an open rebellion against their leaders.

 

Also - Edelgards word is not worth anything in this regard because she likely just repeats what was told to her ... which is completly bollocks as we find out later. And she is quite happy to point the finger at the church whenever something bad happens.

Edited August 26, 2019 by Nihilem

[Tenzen12]

26 minutes ago, dragonlordsd said:

Ok, now here's the thing that I think we're going to be debating until dlc comes out or something.

On the one hand, I CAN'T find any explicit source in game that says Rhea "supports" the nobility. Edelgard claims that's true, but unless someone can point something out that I missed, we just have her word.

The library claims the opposite is true. Now, I don't believe Rhea herself wrote the books in the library, that's a little silly. But it is likely that followers of hers wrote them. So who do we believe?

Edit: a further piece of evidence I've been debating over is her confiscating the lance of Ruin, which should belong to house Gautier. That seems to fall in line with what the books say, though I feel that's a bit off topic.

Rhea returned Spear to house Gautier, so there is that. That said Dimitri noted that it's tradition to give preferential treatment of crests bearer stem from necessity fend of invaders and both crest and Spear were instrumental to it.

 So at minimum house Gautier "corruption" has very little to do with church doctrine and there is probably other noble houses in similar situation. 

 

[Loki Laufeyson]

Rhea endorsed the nobility for the sake of order. It seemed any squabbling between the nobility was something Rhea didnt give a shit about. She really isnt keen on letting Relics go willy nilly in people's hands. Believe it or not, Rhea doesnt find folx turning into demonic beasts terribly awesome.

 

but honestly (mega spoilas btw)

Spoiler

Rhea kept hella crest stones in the Holy Tomb because they were literally the remains of her kin. The Agarthans were the ones who put the ten crest stones into the Elites and Nemesis. The rest, Rhea kept along with the Sword of the Creator. I honestly think she covered up the truth so people wouldnt try to repeat the Zanado tragedy and go after the remaining Nabateans. All Rhea had left of her family were the Saints. Two of them lost their humanity and wandered Fódlan keeping their relics safe from Agarthans. Two of them went into hiding until some years before the game's events began. 

Seteth's stance on Crestology is....not a wholly positive one, and with good reason. Unlike Rhea, he wasnt making the rules. He also knew damn well that if he Flayn were just to simply exist among normal people, theyd catch on.  There's literally no one with a Major Crest of Cichol. Same with the Major Crest of Cetheleann. If fucking Linhardt could piece it together, others would, and actively pursue Seteth and Flayn for their blood. This actually happens when Agarthans kidnap Flayn. She knew damn well why they took her, she just kept her teeth together. What she didnt know is what they were trying to achieve.

Seteth finds the crest system to be a huge burden that puts his family in danger. But he's compassionate enough to understand how it ruins people's lives since the nobility is so dependent on it. 

 

[charcoalswift]

the books in the library are unreliable and biased. some guy even said Seteth had to remove some inappropriate books

[Crysta]

Huh. I remember Hanneman saying while Flayn's crest is exceptionally rare, there are others that who have it, when you question him after Flayn is kidnapped.

[Loki Laufeyson]

3 minutes ago, Crysta said:

Huh. I remember Hanneman saying while Flayn's crest is exceptionally rare, there are others that who have it, when you question him after Flayn is kidnapped.

There are people with the Minor crest like Linhardt. Thats what Hanneman meant. Flayn's is a Major.  I think Sylvain is the one with a Minor crest of Cichol. 

[Humanoid]

29 minutes ago, Loki Laufeyson said:

There are people with the Minor crest like Linhardt. Thats what Hanneman meant. Flayn's is a Major.  I think Sylvain is the one with a Minor crest of Cichol. 

Ferdinand. Sylvain has his own house's crest of Gautier.

 

Never picked up the impression that major crestbearers couldn't exist though, but admittedly I'm only halfway through the game and haven't paid too much attention to detail.

[Loki Laufeyson]

1 minute ago, Humanoid said:

Ferdinand. Sylvain has his own house's crest of Gautier.

 

Never picked up the impression that major crestbearers couldn't exist though, but admittedly I'm only halfway through the game and haven't paid too much attention to detail.

Ferdie, yes thank you. 

Of those two crests, theres no one other than Seteth and Flayn carrying major ones. This is actually why Seteth keeps telling Hanneman to bugger off when he presses about studying the crests of those two. It really is in details, so its fair if it gets overlooked. 

[Humanoid]

1 minute ago, Loki Laufeyson said:

Of those two crests, theres no one other than Seteth and Flayn carrying major ones. This is actually why Seteth keeps telling Hanneman to bugger off when he presses about studying the crests of those two. It really is in details, so its fair if it gets overlooked. 

No one else in or around the monastery, but is there a source that explicitly says no one in all of Fodlan?

[Loki Laufeyson]

Not that i know of, but it is implied. /shrug

 

 

[charcoalswift]

13 minutes ago, Humanoid said:

No one else in or around the monastery, but is there a source that explicitly says no one in all of Fodlan?

I think major crests can exist among humans since Felix has a major crest of Fraldarius

so there are major Cethleann and Cichol crest holders other than the OGs

Edited August 27, 2019 by charcoalswift

[Nihilem]

7 hours ago, charcoalswift said:

the books in the library are unreliable and biased. some guy even said Seteth had to remove some inappropriate books

That is not the point. They are unreliable if we want to know what truly happened. But they are quite reliable if we want to know how the church sees stuff. And

"In time they amassed land, titles, crests, and wealth, and used it all to set the land aflame. The goddess' power, intended to stem the flow of evil, became a tool of destruction, and all because of the greed of humanity."

Does not really sound like a whole lot of support of how the current system runs. Just because they dont do anything against it, doesnt mean they support it.

[charcoalswift]

Just now, Nihilem said:

That is not the point. They are unreliable if we want to know what truly happened. But they are quite reliable if we want to know how the church sees stuff. And

"In time they amassed land, titles, crests, and wealth, and used it all to set the land aflame. The goddess' power, intended to stem the flow of evil, became a tool of destruction, and all because of the greed of humanity."

Does not really sound like a whole lot of support of how the current system runs. Just because they dont do anything against it, doesnt mean they support it.

The church didn't support the crest system but they also did not stop it. That is why the Flame emperor wants to overthrow the church, then true change can be made