Evil

[Esau of Isaac]

Without religion coming into play, good and evil DO exist. Except they are law, instead of lifestyles. A man murdering someone is Evil, but nearly everyone believes there is a time and a place for murder, like war. Everyone thinks a good-moraled (lol not a word, but I think you'll understand me) is "Good," how about behind closed doors? How does he treat his wife, children, other members of the family? How does he really think about the people around him? The truth is, the most "Good" person you know can be the most evil being in existence. Unlikely, but still.

I believe you are operating under a fundamentally different understanding of the word "evil", here. Evil, as in lack of goodness, is a complete and total subjective concept. Think of the worst murderer you can imagine; s/he's not objectively a bad person. Murder doesn't alter some kind of real and physical measurement of goodness. It's not something that can be objectively quantified, like meters, or grams.

[Gatrie: Guns Blazing]

the road to hell is paved with good intentions

[lolDeath]

Without religion coming into play, good and evil DO exist. Except they are law, instead of lifestyles. A man murdering someone is Evil, but nearly everyone believes there is a time and a place for murder, like war. Everyone thinks a good-moraled (lol not a word, but I think you'll understand me) is "Good," how about behind closed doors? How does he treat his wife, children, other members of the family? How does he really think about the people around him? The truth is, the most "Good" person you know can be the most evil being in existence. Unlikely, but still.

No, they are not "law" or "lifestyles". They are opinions, this is an easily proven. Want to prove me wrong? Show me who has the authority to dictate what is right and wrong, please, show me the being with total control over the minds of every single person on in history.

It is subjective, sub-jec-tive. Here I'll even post the definition just in case you are confused.

sub⋅jec⋅tive

   /səbˈdʒɛktɪv/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [suhb-jek-tiv] Show IPA Pronunciation

–adjective

1. existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought

Good and evil so exist, as OPINIONS. Nothing else, they can not exist as more than opinions, it is impossible. That's like saying a food is disgusting is a fact, it is personal opinion.

[Raven]

Bad is only "bad" because that's what we've been taught to believe.

Killing a human is evil, because that's what we've been raised to believe.

Example:

We see a crocodile catching and eating a person, resulting in that person's death. Many would consider the crocodile to be evil because of this. It isn't evil, it's just nature.

If I recall, doesn't Nergal talk about something like this?

[Phoenix Wright]

Bad is only "bad" because that's what we've been taught to believe.

Killing a human is evil, because that's what we've been raised to believe.

Example:

We see a crocodile catching and eating a person, resulting in that person's death. Many would consider the crocodile to be evil because of this. It isn't evil, it's just nature.

If I recall, doesn't Nergal talk about something like this?

People are much more different. We get to CHOOSE what we want to eat. Killing cows is downright evil, but we're still OK with it.

@Death: Come on, if you do something evil, do you not feel guilt? If you help people around you, do you not feel HAPPY afterwards? If good and evil didn't exist there would be NO conscience at all, whether it'd be for good and bad deeds.

@Issac: Yeah, I totally understood it. If a person murders someone, they aren't "bad" but they COMMITTED evil. Does that make sense?

[YokaiKnight]

Killing cows is downright evil, but we're still OK with it.

That just proves it's not explicitly evil. Like Death has said however many times by now, good and evil are opinions. You can't prove that there is something wrong with killing cows.

[Leonri]

As has been said, good and evil are social constructs.

However, this does not lessen them in any way. They are essential to a healthy society. A nation, a group, a fellowship must have a widely agreed upon basis of conduct. This is the function good and evil serve. For example, most people agree murder is evil, an act so unspeakable that the guilty one cannot continue as a part of society. This is obviously good for the survival of the group, and the individual within it. Widespread murder would destroy the society and endanger the individual, so murder is seen as evil, engrained as wrong in the minds of people since childhood and unthinkable for the majority of the population. Of course, occasionally certain individuals do not conform, and commit acts seen as evil, but they are punished and ostracized, thus strengthening the antithema to acts seen as evil. As societies grow more sophisticated, these essential tenets are turned into the nation's law.

There is no fundamental good and evil, no act which is irrevocably and certainly one or the other, no acts that are interpreted the same by every viewpoint. But still, they are important referance points, to base actions upon. Disregarding them would be a serious mistake.

[lolDeath]

@Death: Come on, if you do something evil, do you not feel guilt? If you help people around you, do you not feel HAPPY afterwards? If good and evil didn't exist there would be NO conscience at all, whether it'd be for good and bad deeds

The conscience operates off of what you think are right and wrong. Honestly I am amazed that you have been able to function in reality without the slightest grasp on the difference between fact and opinion, it's a little scary.

[Meteor]

While there may not be good and evil, there are certainly actions one can take which will determine others' perspective of how useful s/he is to society.

[Raven]

People are much more different. We get to CHOOSE what we want to eat. Killing cows is downright evil, but we're still OK with it.

My point exactly. You have been raised to believe that killing cows to eat them is evil. It's just opinion.

I don't consider it evil because I don't give a crap about cows. People may consider this evil, but again, that's just opinion.

[Phoenix Wright]

The conscience operates off of what you think are right and wrong. Honestly I am amazed that you have been able to function in reality without the slightest grasp on the difference between fact and opinion, it's a little scary.

True, that is good and evil at a personal level. I remember that from FEU, always with the reality thing. Fact isn't everything. How do we explain life? The Big Bang? How the dense little ball of mass was even created in the first place? How God was created? Fact is only a hypothesis by one man widely accepted. If purple's new name was green, and enough people agreed it should change, the name of the color purple would be changed to green, no? Thus, making it a fact.

-----------------------------------

Back on good and evil.

Actually, the reason it is SO hard to prove it exists, is the reason that no human is actually evil. We commit crimes, AND good deeds, making it hard to "judge." Good and evil are hidden in the laws of our world, if murder, or prostitution became legal, then the two laws would be LEGAL but that doesn't change the fact they are EVIL.

Evil takes place in the heart. If you are "heartless," you don't give a shit what you do, how you do it, why you do it, who you do it to, or when you do it. All you care for is yourself. Mind that no person is defined as evil because of free will. If they are willing to change their ways, they can become "good." Same goes for "Good." If someone does right, and decides to commit crimes without remorse, they choose to act evil.

Molestation is an evil act, wouldn't you agree? Or is just survival of the fittest?

@YokaiKnight: Actually, it does prove it is evil. How does the cow feel when it's being treated like garbage? I'm not part of that animal organization thing, since I eat meat, but it is still evil. Does this mean everyone who eats meat is a little evil? Yes, and no. The men and women who do it (as in, killing the animal) commit the evil act. The men/women might as well eat it right? No reason for it to go to waste, right?

[Seichi]

Actually, the reason it is SO hard to prove it exists, is the reason that no human is actually evil. We commit crimes, AND good deeds, making it hard to "judge." Good and evil are hidden in the laws of our world, if murder, or prostitution became legal, then the two laws would be LEGAL but that doesn't change the fact they are EVIL.

Evil takes place in the heart. If you are "heartless," you don't give a shit what you do, how you do it, why you do it, who you do it to, or when you do it. All you care for is yourself. Mind that no person is defined as evil because of free will. If they are willing to change their ways, they can become "good." Same goes for "Good." If someone does right, and decides to commit crimes without remorse, they choose to act evil.

Molestation is an evil act, wouldn't you agree? Or is just survival of the fittest?

Prostitution is evil now?

Oh wow, I'm sure all the poor women who just have no other place to look for money to pay their living would love to hear that, and to murder being evil?

Come on, either it's done for personal gains or due to part of your mind not being completely right.

Also, last I checked, the heart does nothing but pump blood around the body.

People are people, they live for themselves in first hand and wont stop at anything for personal gain, and breaking the law isn't 'evil', arguably sometimes breaking the law is 'good' like saving a life through breaking a law.

Finally, molestation isn't evil, nor survival of the fittest.

It is sometimes, however, a display of power. Putting someone down to show them that you're stronger than them, to instill fear in them.

Other times, something's just plain mentally wrong with you, and in my opinion, insane people aren't evil, more like horribly unlucky.

[Kintenbo]

@YokaiKnight: Actually, it does prove it is evil. How does the cow feel when it's being treated like garbage? I'm not part of that animal organization thing, since I eat meat, but it is still evil. Does this mean everyone who eats meat is a little evil? Yes, and no. The men and women who do it (as in, killing the animal) commit the evil act. The men/women might as well eat it right? No reason for it to go to waste, right?

For what it's worth, I don't consider killing for food or survival (as in someone is trying to kill you or someone you care about) evil. It's merely a survival matter, especially in the wild. However, killing for fun or pleasure, that is not good. Killing out of pure hatred of someone is also not good. I'm not down on hunting, just as long as it is for food. But hunting for sport is something that doesn't make me feel good, however. Killing, even it has it's variations on when it's alright or bad.

[Phoenix Wright]

Prostitution is evil now?

Oh wow, I'm sure all the poor women who just have no other place to look for money to pay their living would love to hear that, and to murder being evil?

Come on, either it's done for personal gains or due to part of your mind not being completely right.

What the fuck? Dude, no offense but you are pretty twisted for that. Poor women? They weren't always ADULTS. I'm lived where there are poor people EVERYWHERE (including me) but my mom NEVER went to prostitution. Never heard of welfare? Never heard of a drug addict being a prostitute to get more drugs? Never heard of having a hoe, and you are the pimp? That statement is flawed, I will say nothing more.

Murder isn't evil? Yeah, and pigs can fly too, can't they? "Part of your mind not being completely right." Lol, I love that. Since when was it OK for ANYONE to murder? Just so you know, there are people who aren't crazy that still kill. Why is being crazy an excuse? If a crazy person murders someone, and are guilty of first degree murder, the judge doesn't go "Oh SNAP!!!! The records say you are crazy, sorry, Imma have to let this man free." There are medicines, institutions, etc that treat craziness. It is the crazy person's fault they didn't take their medicine. So I don't sound like a jackass, I do sympathize insane people, not for serious crimes though.

Also, last I checked, the heart does nothing but pump blood around the body.

People are people, they live for themselves in first hand and wont stop at anything for personal gain, and breaking the law isn't 'evil', arguably sometimes breaking the law is 'good' like saving a life through breaking a law.

Dude, you totally missed it man. I said "Murder can be LEGAL, it is still EVIL though." Same for a good deed. If I was to risk my life, but I had to commit a crime to save the person I'm saving, it is STILL A CRIME, BUT IT IS STILL GOOD.

Finally, molestation isn't evil, nor survival of the fittest.

It is sometimes, however, a display of power. Putting someone down to show them that you're stronger than them, to instill fear in them.

Other times, something's just plain mentally wrong with you, and in my opinion, insane people aren't evil, more like horribly unlucky.

OH YEAH, cause raping a 5-year old REALLY displays a person's power.

I NEVER said insane people are evil, in fact, I didn't even talk about crazy people.

[Inactive Account]

I think we can very safely differentiate between "illegal" and "evil." Just saying. Though many laws do follow the boundary between good and evil (murder etc) we shouldn't bring the law into this; it's a question of ethics, not red tape (cough MUSIC INDUSTRY cough sorry)

(This doesn't quite have to do with anything anyone said; I just noticed that people were bringing the law into the argument.)

[Esau of Isaac]

@Issac: Yeah, I totally understood it. If a person murders someone, they aren't "bad" but they COMMITTED evil. Does that make sense?

Under a separate definition than what is being discussed presently, perhaps.

How do we explain life? The Big Bang? How the dense little ball of mass was even created in the first place? How God was created? Fact is only a hypothesis by one man widely accepted. If purple's new name was green, and enough people agreed it should change, the name of the color purple would be changed to green, no? Thus, making it a fact.

But the color represented by green or purple would remain intact. We can change the meaning of blue to bronze, but this won't change that the color of the sky is still in the range of 420 to 490 nm, just what word we use to describe it.

Actually, the reason it is SO hard to prove it exists, is the reason that no human is actually evil. We commit crimes, AND good deeds, making it hard to "judge." Good and evil are hidden in the laws of our world, if murder, or prostitution became legal, then the two laws would be LEGAL but that doesn't change the fact they are EVIL.

And here you illustrate that rather than progressing with the topic, you'd rather just continue saying your opinion on the matter. I contest that legalizing prostitution would be evil; in fact, I believe that it would constitute some real good by providing a safe and clean working environment and another realm for taxation.

Are you still failing to understand that these concepts are subjective?

Evil takes place in the heart. If you are "heartless," you don't give a shit what you do, how you do it, why you do it, who you do it to, or when you do it. All you care for is yourself. Mind that no person is defined as evil because of free will. If they are willing to change their ways, they can become "good." Same goes for "Good." If someone does right, and decides to commit crimes without remorse, they choose to act evil.

It's still subjective. A heartless individual that does whatever they wish whenever they wish can still be seen as good.

What the fuck? Dude, no offense but you are pretty twisted for that. Poor women? They weren't always ADULTS. I'm lived where there are poor people EVERYWHERE (including me) but my mom NEVER went to prostitution. Never heard of welfare? Never heard of a drug addict being a prostitute to get more drugs? Never heard of having a hoe, and you are the pimp? That statement is flawed, I will say nothing more.

It is childish to assume that prostitution is inherently evil. It's sex for payment, and I don't see any evil in such a thing at all.

Murder isn't evil? Yeah, and pigs can fly too, can't they? "Part of your mind not being completely right." Lol, I love that. Since when was it OK for ANYONE to murder? Just so you know, there are people who aren't crazy that still kill. Why is being crazy an excuse? If a crazy person murders someone, and are guilty of first degree murder, the judge doesn't go "Oh SNAP!!!! The records say you are crazy, sorry, Imma have to let this man free." There are medicines, institutions, etc that treat craziness. It is the crazy person's fault they didn't take their medicine. So I don't sound like a jackass, I do sympathize insane people, not for serious crimes though.

No, murder isn't evil. It's like the further on you go in this topic, the more you regress. Have you already forgotten everyone else's posts?

Dude, you totally missed it man. I said "Murder can be LEGAL, it is still EVIL though." Same for a good deed. If I was to risk my life, but I had to commit a crime to save the person I'm saving, it is STILL A CRIME, BUT IT IS STILL GOOD.

If murder's legal, it's not murder.

Jesus Christ.

[Seichi]

-snip-

I'd respond, but I think your mind is stuck on some sort of pseudo-christian conservatist high horse and you wont get what I'm saying regardless, cause that's what happened just now.

[Phoenix Wright]

I'd respond, but I think your mind is stuck on some sort of pseudo-christian conservatist high horse and you wont get what I'm saying regardless, cause that's what happened just now.

Yeah, of course you don't. I'm the BIG BAD Christian, out to get ALL the others who aren't Christian. I'm a religious dumb ass, back stabber, retard, and anything I say shouldn't be acknowledged because it is SO religious. I have no reason to open up to other ideas because I'm SOOOOOOOOOOOO Closed, I only fend for myself. I tend to not give a fuck what others say because I'm Christian. SARCASM

GET THE FUCK OFF OF MY RELIGION!!!!!!! IF RELIGION HAS NO STAND IN THIS DEBATE, WHY DO YOU KEEP BRINGING IT UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????? IF I SAY WHAT I SAY, IT IS WHAT I BELIEVE NOT WHAT GOD TELLS ME TO. I HAVE FAITH IN GOD, AND I TRY TO ABIDE BY HIS RULES, IF YOU GUYS DON'T WANT ANY FUCKING RELIGION, YOU WON'T GET IT FROM ME. ALL YOU WILL GET IS MY TWO CENTS ON THE DAMN MATTER.

-----------------------------------------

It's still subjective. A heartless individual that does whatever they wish whenever they wish can still be seen as good.

By whom? Who would see a heartless, selfish person as "good?" No one. No one IS THAT heartless enough

Sex for payment. Evil. Selling yourself to make money for drugs, and all that other shit isn't evil I suppose.

If murder's legal, it's not murder.

Murder is how we describe it. Remember? YOU are the one who just said that when I was talking about green and purple. You said it is the word we describe it as. MURDER. FACT, MURDER is taking someone's or something's life away. Whether it is legal or not DOESN'T MATTER. It is evil.

[Crystal Shards]

I don't believe in relativism.

[Seichi]

Yeah, of course you don't. I'm the BIG BAD Christian, out to get ALL the others who aren't Christian.

No, I'm saying that the way you think doesn't leave you any room to see how I think and thus I don't feel it worth it to debate with you.

[Crystal Shards]

Murder is how we describe it. Remember? YOU are the one who just said that when I was talking about green and purple. You said it is the word we describe it as. MURDER. FACT, MURDER is taking someone's or something's life away. Whether it is legal or not DOESN'T MATTER. It is evil.

Wrong.

Murder: unlawful premeditated killing of a human being by a human being

See the word "unlawful" in there? If a killing is in a certain instance legal, it is not murder.

[Phoenix Wright]

No, I'm saying that the way you think doesn't leave you any room to see how I think and thus I don't feel it worth it to debate with you.

I am reading all your thoughts and counter-arguing them with my own. You think I should change because of what you are saying? Not unless it really gets to me in here. *Hits heart.*

You've been saying the SAME thing OVER AND OVER AGAIN. "Good and evil are subjective."

"Prostitution isn't evil. Murder isn't evil."

I keep coming back with different reasons why it isn't subjective, and why they ARE evil. YOU are the one who doesn't seem to be listening.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Citrusman

[Crystal Shards]

Murder is how we describe it. Remember? YOU are the one who just said that when I was talking about green and purple. You said it is the word we describe it as. MURDER. FACT, MURDER is taking someone's or something's life away. Whether it is legal or not DOESN'T MATTER. It is evil.

Wrong.

Murder: unlawful premeditated killing of a human being by a human being

See the word "unlawful" in there? If a killing is in a certain instance legal, it is not murder.

[Esau of Isaac]

Yeah, of course you don't. I'm the BIG BAD Christian, out to get ALL the others who aren't Christian. I'm a religious dumb ass, back stabber, retard, and anything I say shouldn't be acknowledged because it is SO religious. I have no reason to open up to other ideas because I'm SOOOOOOOOOOOO Closed, I only fend for myself. I tend to not give a fuck what others say because I'm Christian. SARCASM

Ironically, it seems more and more to be the utter truth.

GET THE FUCK OFF OF MY RELIGION!!!!!!! IF RELIGION HAS NO STAND IN THIS DEBATE, WHY DO YOU KEEP BRINGING IT UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????? IF I SAY WHAT I SAY, IT IS WHAT I BELIEVE NOT WHAT GOD TELLS ME TO. I HAVE FAITH IN GOD, AND I TRY TO ABIDE BY HIS RULES, IF YOU GUYS DON'T WANT ANY FUCKING RELIGION, YOU WON'T GET IT FROM ME. ALL YOU WILL GET IS MY TWO CENTS ON THE DAMN MATTER.

Your stance is based of religious principles. That much is pretty clear.

By whom? Who would see a heartless, selfish person as "good?" No one. No one IS THAT heartless enough

It doesn't matter. A mass amount of individuals viewing something as good or bad doesn't make it objectively good or bad (by your own God-damned admission, no less), therefore the opposite holds true.

Sex for payment. Evil.

Thanks for explaining that so spectacularly. I mean, I would have preferred some sort of a cogent argument or intelligent conversation, but this works too, I guess.

Selling yourself to make money for drugs, and all that other shit isn't evil I suppose.

Even if that was the purpose of prostitution, it wouldn't be evil in my eyes.

Where do you get your understanding of prostitution from? Seriously, I'm curious.

Murder is how we describe it. Remember? YOU are the one who just said that when I was talking about green and purple. You said it is the word we describe it as. MURDER. FACT, MURDER is taking someone's or something's life away. Whether it is legal or not DOESN'T MATTER. It is evil.

Murder is a legal term, you troglodyte.

[Inactive Account]

Fine then, KILLING is evil. I'm pretty sure kill is not a legal term.