FE5 Tier List

[Lord Raven]

I wish. I've argued a lot about those two in other forums I've been to, and at most they are high/middle tier.

Which is near top tier. I interpreted his post too literally.

[Mekkah]

When looking back at the OP, I'm considering pushing Dalshien for a little higher than Lower Mid. He seems more useful than the Upper Mid Trewd, for example. Dalshien has a point in time where he's actually very useful as a wall (Manster breakout), and from there he's still that. Dodging is never too reliable, but his HP and Def are really quite high. His main problem is obviously offense, though this is quite fixable...the Sety scroll can be on him for a pretty long time, and I don't think any other units want that thing really badly (by 20/1, your units pretty much double every enemy). Another problem is that enemies with Hammers and such actually matter in this game, since they get massive power boosts from being effective on Dalshien...but they're usually easy to seek out and avoid.

I'm thinking Linoan > Tina. Tina effectively joins one chapter before Linoan (she fatigues herself as an enemy in 12x), and I don't think her Ch14 performance is anything worth noting. She's a low movement unit that dies if she ever steps into ballista range, and gets killed by any Dragon Knight that penetrate your defense, and doesn't add to your offense at all. All she has is her Thief Staff (Unlock isn't very useful other than in the other defend map), and that thing doesn't have that many uses. In fact, you have to repair it to use it, since she spams it in 12x. And from there Linoan just does the whole healing thing better, plus she attacks with Resire (I consider this pretty much her Prf weapon).

[dondon151]

Lara for high tier.

She's bottom of top... does moving the label for high tier change anything (addressed to both you and Mekkah)? She'll still be below A and B and above Y and Z.

[Seph]

She's bottom of top... does moving the label for high tier change anything (addressed to both you and Mekkah)? She'll still be below A and B and above Y and Z.

A whole tier's difference is significant, in my opinion.

I'm not too sure about Dalshein. His move is really crap and he has to catch up all the time. He'll be underleveled in some cases.

Linoan is definitely better than Tina. She doesn't have to use a Knights Proof and Tina is useful mainly because of the Thief Staff.

[Mekkah]

Whether you're bottom of High or top of Upper Mid or something does make a difference, yes. It's where a tier gap occurs.

I'm not too sure about Dalshein. His move is really crap and he has to catch up all the time. He'll be underleveled in some cases.

He has the same movement as all your horse dudes when indoors, and the same movement growth. He only gets outrun outdoors, but not significantly moreso than Leaf/Asvel/etc. Hell, Saphy has his movement and she's top of top. It's inconvenient, but not massively crippling. And his flexibility is better than many others due to higher durability.

Moving up Linoan above Tina.

[Seph]

He has the same movement as all your horse dudes when indoors, and the same movement growth. He only gets outrun outdoors, but not significantly moreso than Leaf/Asvel/etc. Hell, Saphy has his movement and she's top of top. It's inconvenient, but not massively crippling. And his flexibility is better than many others due to higher durability.

I think we shouldn't consider movement growth at all in this. On average you won't be getting any.

My main complaint with Dalshein is that he's just way too useless in outdoor chapters, while someone like Trewd is useful in both. Look at Chapter 9. Most of your units are useful in both kinds of chapters. Dalshein just doesn't have that. Even horseback units are somewhat useful in indoor chapters.

Believe it or not, 1 move is a huge difference. Especially in Asvel's and Leaf's cases. At least Asvel can attack nicely from range. And Leaf always has to be going to the throne, so he may be rescued or whatever.

We all know how awesome Saphy is, though. And she has Rewarp and Warp if she needs. Dalshein doesn't have any of that shit. Saphy also gains exp really easily even though she has shit move, but Dalshein HAS to kill.

Higher durability can be useful, but so is avoid, which Dalshein really needs, and has almost none of.

Edited January 1, 2009 by Julius

[Mekkah]

I think we shouldn't consider movement growth at all in this. On average you won't be getting any.

Yes, you will. Don't forget it can grow every battle, not every level. After 100 battles, you have a 64% chance of having +1 mov.

[Seph]

Yes, you will. Don't forget it can grow every battle, not every level. After 100 battles, you have a 64% chance of having +1 mov.

Every battle?

Did not know that. Then the fea.fewiki place has it wrong.

Well good luck getting 100 fucking battles Dalshein, since you are shit in outdoor and have low move indoors.

[Mekkah]

My main complaint with Dalshein is that he's just way too useless in outdoor chapters, while someone like Trewd is useful in both. Look at Chapter 9. Most of your units are useful in both kinds of chapters. Dalshein just doesn't have that. Even horseback units are somewhat useful in indoor chapters.

Chapter 9 is a bad example, since Trewd isn't even around yet, and Trewd again only has only 1 mov over Dalshien (and chances are their move is already tied). Plus in Ch9, you'll want Dalshien to take the hits the Dragon Knights are dishing out either way, so he's useful there.

Saying Dalshien is useless in outdoors is saying Leaf, Asvel, Othin etc are close to useless. 1 move is not that big of a deal.

Higher durability can be useful, but so is avoid, which Dalshein really needs, and has almost none of.

No, Dalshien doesn't really give a shit about his Avo, which is unreliable even in cases of Mareeta and Asvel. As you said yourself, the hard thing in FE5 is surviving, not killing, and Dalshien survives better than lots of people. Avo is hardly ever reliable, and is completely unreliable in some cases (Cyas).

[Seph]

Chapter 9 is a bad example, since Trewd isn't even around yet, and Trewd again only has only 1 mov over Dalshien (and chances are their move is already tied). Plus in Ch9, you'll want Dalshien to take the hits the Dragon Knights are dishing out either way, so he's useful there.

I was just giving an example of a chapter in which Dalshein is crap. The Dragon Knights come towards you way too fast, Dalshein will be too far behind. And if you don't charge enough, then the other units will get raped, so..

Saying Dalshien is useless in outdoors is saying Leaf, Asvel, Othin etc are close to useless. 1 move is not that big of a deal.

Your horseback units can't rush whole chapters by themselves. Leaf Asvel Othin etc. have more move than Dalshien so catching up is easier for them. Most of your units aren't horseback. And Dalshien has the lowest move out of them, so he's stuck behind.

In my opinion, it is. Your other units will be getting the kills while Dalshein is goddamn it, stuck behind. He can't catch up with the others, and in this tier list, you can't play defence all the time.

Trewd is cool because his move is tied with your other units. Dalshein is screwed.

No, Dalshien doesn't really give a shit about his Avo, which is unreliable even in cases of Mareeta and Asvel. As you said yourself, the hard thing in FE5 is surviving, not killing, and Dalshien survives better than lots of people. Avo is hardly ever reliable, and is completely unreliable in some cases (Cyas).

Monsters like Asvel, Mareeta, Shiva and Othin have awesome avoid (you can use scrolls too to enhance it) and they take advantage of terrain bonuses too. The RN in FE5 is fucked up the ass, this much is obvious. They WILL be dodging hits, you don't have to rely on it but they WILL be, and it will make your game easier when they do, since you don't have to heal them and all. And fatigue is annoying for your healers.

Not taking a hit >>>>>> taking a hit.

Also remember that Dalshein is fucked even if he uses a terrain bonus.

I think you should be Warping Chapter 22, it will kill your A rank if you don't.

Edited January 1, 2009 by Julius

[Rei Rei]

Dalshien is not crap.

Julius, you exagerate way too much.

Early game, Dalshien won't accept much attacks, and he's your first tank.

Then, he might come in hand in chapter 14, but not against the hammer guys.

[Seph]

Lex, this is ranked. You have to charge. He'll be falling behind and he's not getting enough kills. He's more of a hinder than a help.

In unranked, he's probably fine, since move doesn't matter at all most of the time.

Edited January 1, 2009 by Julius

[Rei Rei]

Ranked is another story. I guess you might be right, then x(

I never do ranked playthroughs

[Lord Raven]

Mekkah, what rank are we aiming for here?

[Seph]

A, he said it himself.

[Mekkah]

I'm against the FE5 in-game ranks since they're pretty much "lol just warprape every chapter". I say the goal is the same as FE8/FE9/FE10, i.e. faster is better, but lowering turn count isn't the #1 priority.

[Seph]

22 should be the only exception to that.

Instead of moving Dalshien higher, you could even move him lower. His low move is too much of a hinder in outdoor chapters. Maybe below Kein and Alva?'

Actually nevermind.. Dalshien is useful in the earlier chapters like 4, 4x and 5 so he's fine where he is.

Edited January 1, 2009 by Julius

[Mekkah]

I was just giving an example of a chapter in which Dalshein is crap. The Dragon Knights come towards you way too fast, Dalshein will be too far behind. And if you don't charge enough, then the other units will get raped, so..

Why are you using your full move every turn if you're about to get raped by Dragon Knights? You have to move far in enough to lure them, and from there form a formation to hold tight. No problem for Dalshien. Kein and Alva hold out for long enough against the sucky infantry dudes as long as you lure away the Dragon Knights.

Your horseback units can't rush whole chapters by themselves. Leaf Asvel Othin etc. have more move than Dalshien so catching up is easier for them. Most of your units aren't horseback. And Dalshien has the lowest move out of them, so he's stuck behind.

?_? All you're saying is "Dalshien is left behind because he doesn't have enough move" a lot of times. You fail to explain why the 1 move gap is so crucial. People can't use their full move every time like that, there's terrain and enemies and chokepoints (people not being able to move because there's others in the way).

and in this tier list, you can't play defence all the time.

You're not playing a tier list, you're playing a game. The tier list merely ranks how useful everyone is when playing that game, it doesn't obligate you to blindly rush.

Trewd is cool because his move is tied with your other units. Dalshein is screwed.

Since you are basically just going "if you don't have at least 6 mov you are totally getting left behind all the time" again I'll point out here that Trewd, when you get him, is too frail to move wherever he wants anyway (most things 2HKO him), and he's more limited in the 2-range department than Dalshien is.

Monsters like Asvel, Mareeta, Shiva and Othin have awesome avoid (you can use scrolls too to enhance it) and they take advantage of terrain bonuses too. The RN in FE5 is fucked up the ass, this much is obvious. They WILL be dodging hits, you don't have to rely on it but they WILL be, and it will make your game easier when they do, since you don't have to heal them and all. And fatigue is annoying for your healers.

Good avoid, sure, but good isn't good enough. Enemies have an awful shitload of leadership, and WTA (something that the player gets more out of than the enemy) is only 5%. Yes, the RNG in FE5 is fucked up, but how exactly does this help your argument? There's an 1 RN system that actually _hurts_ the reliability of Avo, plus everyone caps at 60 base Avo either way due to the 20 caps.

Yes, they will be dodging some hits, but so will Dalshien, and they will also be taking hits, and so will Dalshien. Dalshien will take more hits, but less damage. What you're saying is "dodging is awesome because", but you forget that dodging is not something that can be relied on or calculated, nor is it superior to surviving. It's only infinitely superior if they never get hit, but that happens, and when it does, they need healing just like Dalshien.

Also remember that Dalshein is fucked even if he uses a terrain bonus.

He gains just as much Avo as others, so I have no idea what you're talking about. He's not fucked.

22 should be the only exception to that.

There's no exceptions involved. There's multiple ways of tackling that map, and each have their advantages and disadvantages. A disadvantage for Warpsaving it would be using up 2 Warp uses, and having to reset until you finally one-round the boss through Great Shield, a throne bonus and roughly 17 leadership stars, as well as missing out on the second Elite Sword, a Rescue Staff, a Master Bow, and huge plows of EXP.

Instead of moving Dalshien higher, you could even move him lower. His low move is too much of a hinder in outdoor chapters.

Wow, how often can you repeat one "argument"?

[Seph]

Why are you using your full move every turn if you're about to get raped by Dragon Knights? You have to move far in enough to lure them, and from there form a formation to hold tight. No problem for Dalshien. Kein and Alva hold out for long enough against the sucky infantry dudes as long as you lure away the Dragon Knights.

There's no formation in this game, first of all.

At turn 3 enemy phase you'll get attacked. Dalshien's move is screwed by the terrain and he'll only catch up by turn 4. And if you don't go forward enough, Kein and Alva will have to deal with the infantry units for a longer time, which is just not cool. And the boss will be doubling Dalshien..

?_? All you're saying is "Dalshien is left behind because he doesn't have enough move" a lot of times. You fail to explain why the 1 move gap is so crucial. People can't use their full move every time like that, there's terrain and enemies and chokepoints (people not being able to move because there's others in the way).

Because it is. I did, because your other units will be getting more kills so Dalshien will be more underleveled.

FE5 maps are quite large. Some maps like Chapter 10 are good for Dalshien, but like the aforementioned Chapter 9 and Chapter 13 and Chapter 15, you'll be usually moving max range at the beginning, and your units will be ahead. Then when they're fighting, Dalshien will have problems catching up, get a kill or two, and your other units will move on, and the cycle repeats itself.

You're not playing a tier list, you're playing a game. The tier list merely ranks how useful everyone is when playing that game, it doesn't obligate you to blindly rush.

Aren't tier lists about efficiency? Efficiency is also about playing faster. You don't have infinite turns, which would make everything different. If you really did have infinite turns, then Dalshein would be even more useful, and so would Mareeta.

Dalshien makes you go slower, so he's less efficient.

Since you are basically just going "if you don't have at least 6 mov you are totally getting left behind all the time" again I'll point out here that Trewd, when you get him, is too frail to move wherever he wants anyway (most things 2HKO him), and he's more limited in the 2-range department than Dalshien is.

Like I said, FE5 maps are very large, and you have a lot of place to move.

If that were a huge problem, then Linoan and Mareeta would be much lower, since they have to be babied just like Trewd. But they all have good potential if trained. Dalshien is always kind of lacking when trained.

Good avoid, sure, but good isn't good enough. Enemies have an awful shitload of leadership, and WTA (something that the player gets more out of than the enemy) is only 5%. Yes, the RNG in FE5 is fucked up, but how exactly does this help your argument? There's an 1 RN system that actually _hurts_ the reliability of Avo, plus everyone caps at 60 base Avo either way due to the 20 caps.

I didn't say good, I said awesome, at least compared to your other units.

It helps because Dalshien is going to be dodging even less, and you claimed he'll be gaining as much avo as the others.

And your enemy units can't have amazing accuracy, because they cap at 20, especially the bosses.

Yes, they will be dodging some hits, but so will Dalshien, and they will also be taking hits, and so will Dalshien. Dalshien will take more hits, but less damage. What you're saying is "dodging is awesome because", but you forget that dodging is not something that can be relied on or calculated, nor is it superior to surviving. It's only infinitely superior if they never get hit, but that happens, and when it does, they need healing just like Dalshien.

Dalshien will not be dodging. Only way for him to dodge is to steal a Sety scroll, and even then his luck is crap.

That is what's so good about your other units. They can actually dodge stuff, unlike Dalshien. I didn't say that it can be relied on, but they will be, and it helps survivability a lot, believe it or not. Dalshien is going to need more healing than the others, which is 100% my point.

He gains just as much Avo as others, so I have no idea what you're talking about. He's not fucked.

Being generous, I'll take 20/20 averages, he has 12 speed and 8 luck. Lovely. What about the lower levels? He NEEDS the Sety scroll. He has 55% speed growth with the Sety scroll, and his HP growth is now 50%. His speed base is only 2, which is just awful. He'll only have like 9 speed before promotion, which is crap.

And he doesn't gain as much avoid, because he's going to be underleveled compared to your other units.

There's no exceptions involved. There's multiple ways of tackling that map, and each have their advantages and disadvantages. A disadvantage for Warpsaving it would be using up 2 Warp uses, and having to reset until you finally one-round the boss through Great Shield, a throne bonus and roughly 17 leadership stars, as well as missing out on the second Elite Sword, a Rescue Staff, a Master Bow, and huge plows of EXP.

I don't think resetting is a part of the tier list.

Stalling and Warping are pretty much the only ways to beat that chapter. I'm pretty sure you want to beat the game efficiently and quickly. The most important item there is probably the Rescue, and you can Warp to get that, 3 Warp uses there.

Wow, how often can you repeat one "argument"?

There are many more which I could mention, but the low move is the worst for me. One other argument are the constant armor-hating weapons enemies love.

I think I'm just biased, because I can't stand low move, at all. Saphy included.

Edited January 1, 2009 by Julius

[Robert]

Oh well, I guess it is your opinion of who you use.

I am not calling you all imbeciles actually.

[Rei Rei]

Marty is AWESOME character wise, but training him is hard and not worth it.

[dondon151]

This one time, I hacked my FE5 so that bows were 1-3 range. Robert and Tanya are top tier.

Also this one time I had a 20 speed, 20 defense Marty unpromoted. Marty4TopTier.

IIRC Salem is the best dark magic user in the game, so he should be top tier as well. Salem4TopTier.

[Robert]

Isnt he the only playable dark magic user in the game?

[Clonez]

Raise your perception stat to detect sarcasm.

[Ϲharlie]

The two Thracia tier lists have been merged. Please keep all Thracia-related tier discussions in one thread. Thanks.