If Brawl weapon-type were added to FE Heroes in the future, do you think we could see them get added in possibly around Book VII?

[King Marth 64]

Since Three Houses and the upcoming Engage did managed to add Brawl as a weapon-type in the FE series. If they decided to add Brawl as a new weapon-type for Heroes similar to like they managed to add the Beast Weapon-types in the game when Book III was released and OC FE Heroes characters like Freyja and Freyr became the first OC FEH Beasts in Book 4. Do you think we could see Brawl weapon-types and some Gauntlets weapons can be added somewhere when the possible Book VII comes out (+ maybe additional OC FEH units with Brawl Weapons possibly added in Book VII as well?) since some of the Brawler units added in like Balthus had been chosen as an Axe unit due to Brawl weapon-type wasn't added to Fire Emblem Heroes yet?

And if Brawl weapon-type was added in, do you think it's going to be in the colorless category for the first release for the Brawl weapon-type units and then later getting added to the color category in the later release like how the Colored Bows were added in later and then the Colorless Dragon Stones were added later on as well?

Edited September 26, 2022 by King Marth 64

[indigoasis]

If they didn't add it in with Balthus, I can't imagine it would be added in at all. I may eat my words when the Engage banner inevitably rolls around, but until then, I think brawling might just be a SUPER SMAAAAASH BROTHERS mainline series exclusive thing.

But if it was added, I'd agree that Book VII would be the place to introduce it. I would keep the class colorless, though, and include it as part of the physical weapon classes (swords, axes, lances). It would certainly be nice to have for Pawns of Loki to get the max combos. I only ever use beasts and dragons for that mode since that's the easiest way to get a 28 combo.

[Ice Dragon]

If it wasn't added for Three Houses, I don't think it'll be added for Engage.

Adding a brawling weapon would have the exact same issues that we currently have for beasts and colorless tomes, which is that every unit is functionally locked to a single weapon because there are no inheritable weapons for that weapon type. Sure, colorless tomes recently got Hvitrvulture, but no one is going to use it over their exclusive weapon, so it's effectively just Nimue's exclusive weapon for the time being. With brawling being a weapon that is likely even rarer than colorless tomes, it'll end up being even more of a novelty class than colorless tomes. Colorless tomes at least have a lot more units that could canonically use the weapon as a non-seasonal unit, whereas brawling would end up on only a handful of non-seasonal units and otherwise be relegated to being almost purely seasonal after that.

And because brawling will be rare, there's basically no way it'll get more than one color. Additionally, unlike colored bows, daggers, and dragons, which have a reason to individually exist, colored brawling weapons would basically just end up filling the same roles as swords, lances, and axes, but without any of the benefits of having access to their inheritable weapons.

[Namero]

With brawling apparently becoming a staying weapon in the main games, I was wondering about if they might eventually decide to add fists/gauntlets as a colorless one range weapon. It's pretty late for that at this point, though. Still, it could always be possible... Buuuuuut, if they want to do that and keep the current weapons in a nice rectangular order, it means they'll have to introduce colored staff weapons with them! At least then there would be no more "incomplete" weapon categories in Pawn of Loki. lol

[Jotari]

I kind of already made a topic about this, which no one replied to 😞

 

 

[Diovani Bressan]

I don't think Gauntlets are happening. Even that new monk character from Engages, Framme, looks to be able to use Brawling and Staff, so when they decide to add her to Heroes I expect her to be a staff unit.

It's not impossible to happen, for sure... but if it didn't have yet, I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't happen anymore.

[DefyingFates]

I think the more times Brawling is used in the main series, the more likely it is to come to FEH, so the fact that IS considered it well done enough to return in Engage makes me think they value it highly as another way to diversify their rosters going forward. Who knows, Engage may have a lot of dedicated Brawlers to justify adding it to FEH as well, and we always have alts to make up the difference. Sucks to be Balthus if that happens though, he really was ahead of his time but at least he's not a potential candidate for CYL anymore.

[Jotari]

8 hours ago, DefyingFates said:

I think the more times Brawling is used in the main series, the more likely it is to come to FEH, so the fact that IS considered it well done enough to return in Engage makes me think they value it highly as another way to diversify their rosters going forward. Who knows, Engage may have a lot of dedicated Brawlers to justify adding it to FEH as well, and we always have alts to make up the difference. Sucks to be Balthus if that happens though, he really was ahead of his time but at least he's not a potential candidate for CYL anymore.

Balthus is the really confusing thing about that. If they just didn't add him into Heroes yet, then this kind of wouldn't be a question at all. It'd be. They could have had another group of Three Houses units instead of the Ashen Wolves, or even just added Yuri, Happi and Constance, but leave Balthus conspicuously missing, it was one of those banners where they threw on an OC, after all, leaving Balthus regulated to free fodder. He just added absolutely nothing to the game in the way they introduced him. And honestly, even if they never intended to add Brawling, I still think he deserved better as a character. In universe he's meant to be, like, super strong and wields a Hero's Relic. Vajra-Mushti could have been at least a skill or something for him to have.

 

As it is now, we have four dedicated Brawlers in the series, Balthus, Caspar, Leopold and Framme. Alois, Raphael and Dedue would also be realistic candidates (though I really want Dedue's war version to be a beast unit). Possible Rhea and Byleth too, but they've hit the point where they already have a bunch of alts (and Rhea still hasn't had the Sword of Seiros) so if they were to be brawlers they would be seasonals. Of course, anyone could also be a brawler as a seasonal, though Ike I see as particularly likely for something like that. Anyway, we have seven "good" candidates. I'm going to compare this colourless melee weapon to the colourless ranged weapon they introduced, ie, colourless tomes. Of which we currently have four teen. Three of which are seasonals and one of which is the Summoner. Which means as few as ten candidates for a weapon type is a decent enough number to base a weapon type around (of course there are a lot more characters that could be colourless tome units than Brawlers, and I'm sure we will eventually see more colourless tome units, likewise as more games are released we will see more brawlers). So if Engage has four brawlers including Framme, then it we'd have an even number of colourless tome units, provided you throw in some seasonals. And four brawlers from Engage alone doesn't seem  unreasonable at all.

Another issue with brawling as a weapon type is one we had with dragons (until they kind of just decided to ignore it as a limitation). Mainly how it pairs with movement types. Specifically how it pairs with cavalry. Three Houses does not let you use brawling while on a horse...for good reason, because it entirely ridiculous. Doing so from the back of a wyvern or pegasus is also a no, no, but conceivably we could have some kind of flying Byleth to give us a flying brawler, but largely brawlers are going to be either infantry or armoured units.

[Ice Dragon]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

I'm going to compare this colourless melee weapon to the colourless ranged weapon they introduced, ie, colourless tomes. Of which we currently have four teen. Three of which are seasonals and one of which is the Summoner. Which means as few as ten candidates for a weapon type is a decent enough number to base a weapon type around (of course there are a lot more characters that could be colourless tome units than Brawlers, and I'm sure we will eventually see more colourless tome units, likewise as more games are released we will see more brawlers).

You're restricting your list of candidates for being a colorless tome to just the characters that actually got colorless tome as a weapon, but you're comparing it to the list of actual candidates for brawling from the main series regardless of if they got the weapon in Heroes (or if they're even in Heroes in the first place).

If you actually extend the list of candidates for being a colorless tome to the same criteria you're using for brawling, that includes every tome user in the series. We've already seen thunder, light, and dark magic represented as a colorless tome, and there's nothing to suggest that fire or wind magic cannot be implemented as colorless in the future. (I'm even half-expecting an eventual Athos to be colorless with Forblaze.) That's a significantly larger pool of candidates than brawling has. Even if most of those candidates are unlikely to actually be released as a colorless tome, that's hardly too much different from being released as a weapon type that doesn't yet exist (especially when two of those candidates have already been released with a different weapon type).

 

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Another issue with brawling as a weapon type is one we had with dragons (until they kind of just decided to ignore it as a limitation). Mainly how it pairs with movement types. Specifically how it pairs with cavalry.

As soon as we got beast cavalry that kept their cavalry movement even when untransformed, it was only a matter of time before they'd do the same with dragons.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

You're restricting your list of candidates for being a colorless tome to just the characters that actually got colorless tome as a weapon, but you're comparing it to the list of actual candidates for brawling from the main series regardless of if they got the weapon in Heroes (or if they're even in Heroes in the first place).

I noted that. See

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

As it is now, we have four dedicated Brawlers in the series, Balthus, Caspar, Leopold and Framme. Alois, Raphael and Dedue would also be realistic candidates (though I really want Dedue's war version to be a beast unit). Possible Rhea and Byleth too, but they've hit the point where they already have a bunch of alts (and Rhea still hasn't had the Sword of Seiros) so if they were to be brawlers they would be seasonals. Of course, anyone could also be a brawler as a seasonal, though Ike I see as particularly likely for something like that. Anyway, we have seven "good" candidates. I'm going to compare this colourless melee weapon to the colourless ranged weapon they introduced, ie, colourless tomes. Of which we currently have four teen. Three of which are seasonals and one of which is the Summoner. Which means as few as ten candidates for a weapon type is a decent enough number to base a weapon type around (of course there are a lot more characters that could be colourless tome units than Brawlers, and I'm sure we will eventually see more colourless tome units, likewise as more games are released we will see more brawlers). So if Engage has four brawlers including Framme, then it we'd have an even number of colourless tome units, provided you throw in some seasonals. And four brawlers from Engage alone doesn't seem  unreasonable at all.

Point is, colourless tomes have been around for two years already and they've released barely a dozen. The point wasn't that Brawlers have as many candidates as colourless tomes, the point that brawlers have enough candidates to fit the pattern they've established. Just because any mage can be a colourless tome unit doesn't mean they went and filled the game to the brim with colourless tome units (they didn't even make Veld one >.>, yeah I'm still salty over that). A weapon type with only a dozen users is considered satisfactory after two years, and that is something Brawlers can manage, provided Engage and future games provide users.

Now, something that should be considered though is the way banners are set up, namely how standard banners are always based on games. There are enough Brawling units, but they're spaced out into just two titles, which is a problem. As most games themselves only manage to get a year and half or so, or even less (there are about fourteen or fifteen titles for banners and only ten regular banners a year considering fallen and brave heroes take up two months). That is a problem, as it significantly reduces the rate of Brawling units being added to the game as they have to wait for the next Three Hopes/Engage banner. They'd have to really pack them in as seasonals, either that or retcon some units from older game as Brawlers like they do with dagger units. Though as much as I'd like to see some kind of Brawling Hawkeye or Dagda, I doubt they actually would, as even with dagger units they've been pretty steadfast of only doing it to thief units, even when some sword units like Saber would have been very comfortable as dagger units.

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

As soon as we got beast cavalry that kept their cavalry movement even when untransformed, it was only a matter of time before they'd do the same with dragons.

Indeed, I only wish we'd gotten Fallen Gunther before that eventual shift, as he had the very unique position of dragon cavalry that actually isn't contrived. And even with that done for dragons (and beasts), I really don't see them ever doing something like that for brawling. Shifters at least have some kind of mythical quality to them and genuinely are big cavalry-like beasts that could run fast, having Balthus who can inexplicably move three squares just because he's in the mood for it is a bid more silly (I do expect Tormod to be a three move unit, like Yuri, but I likewise think that will be from a skill or weapon than just flat out making him a cavalry even if giving him cavalry movement would mechanically be a fine way of represent Celerity, it's just silly for a non shifting infantry to inexplicably be cavalry).

[Ice Dragon]

44 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I noted that. See

You're still comparing two different things, though. "Colorless tome" isn't a thing in the main series, and brawlers aren't a thing in Heroes.

If we're comparing from the main series, the number of candidates for colorless tomes increases by a significantly larger amount than the number of candidates for brawling with each game released.

If we're comparing in Heroes, we've already had two brawler candidates released, and both of them were released with a different weapon.

 

56 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Point is, colourless tomes have been around for two years already and they've released barely a dozen.

An average of one every 2 months is not a small amount.

We get about 11-12 new units every month, and there are 24 different weapon types in the game. One colorless tome every 24 units is literally par.

 

49 minutes ago, Jotari said:

(they didn't even make Veld one >.>, yeah I'm still salty over that)

I don't think petrification being tangentially related to throwing big rocks is a good enough reason for him to be colorless.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

You're still comparing two different things, though. "Colorless tome" isn't a thing in the main series, and brawlers aren't a thing in Heroes.

If we're comparing from the main series, the number of candidates for colorless tomes increases by a significantly larger amount than the number of candidates for brawling with each game released.

I feel like you just didn't listen to me at all, because you're missing the point. Again, it's not about the total number of potential candidates, it's about the total number of users that can be present to make a viable weapon type. There are hundreds of potential colourless weapon users, yes, but we don't have hundreds in Heroes. We have fourteen. It is at present a functioning weapon type at fourteen users. The potential number of users is irrelevant.

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

If we're comparing in Heroes, we've already had two brawler candidates released, and both of them were released with a different weapon.

So? It's not like they couldn't release an Ascended Balthus. We've literally just got a second Hilda.

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

An average of one every 2 months is not a small amount.

We get about 11-12 new units every month, and there are 24 different weapon types in the game. One colorless tome every 24 units is literally par.

Precisely. That is entirely my point. There are enough Brawlers currently in existence (assuming a few more in Engage) to match that rate of release.

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

I don't think petrification being tangentially related to throwing big rocks is a good enough reason for him to be colorless.

Better reason than most of the others. Because, as you said, basically any tome unit could be colourless.

[Ice Dragon]

5 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I feel like you just didn't listen to me at all, because you're missing the point. Again, it's not about the total number of potential candidates, it's about the total number of users that can be present to make a viable weapon type. There are hundreds of potential colourless weapon users, yes, but we don't have hundreds in Heroes. We have fourteen. It is at present a functioning weapon type at fourteen users. The potential number of users is irrelevant.

How many are currently in the game doesn't matter because at one time, colorless tome was a viable weapon type with only one unit in the game. The size of the pool of candidates is what makes the weapon type viable, not the number of units currently released in the game.

 

6 minutes ago, Jotari said:

So? It's not like they couldn't release an Ascended Balthus. We've literally just got a second Hilda.

Hilda placed 9th in the last CYL and is the 5th-highest-voted character from Three Houses that doesn't have a Legendary alt (including Lysithea and Marianne above her).

Balthus placed 256th and is something like the 32nd-highest-voted character from Three Houses that doesn't have a Legendary alt.

Is it possible for Balthus to get an Ascended version? Sure.

Is it likely? Not at all.

 

For comparison:

• Florina is 4th-highest-voted playable character from Blazing Sword that doesn't yet have a Legendary alt
• Hilda is the 5th-highest-voted playable character from Three Houses that doesn't yet have a Legendary alt
• Idunn placed higher than the 1st-highest-voted playable character from Binding Blade that doesn't yet have a Legendary alt
• Ishtar placed higher than the 3rd-highest-voted playable character from Genealogy that doesn't yet have a Legendary alt
• Joshua is the 5th-highest-voted playable character from The Sacred Stones that doesn't yet have a Legendary alt
• Mareeta is the 2nd-highest-voted playable character from Thracia that doesn't yet have a Legendary alt

 

25 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Precisely. That is entirely my point. There are enough Brawlers currently in existence (assuming a few more in Engage) to match that rate of release.

Each game in the series gets about 1 standard banner each year. Since we only have two games with canon brawlers (Three Houses and Engage), that's 2 units per year at most in the standard pool, assuming each banner for those games has a brawler in it. In order to match the rate of release of colorless tomes, a full 2/3 of all brawlers would need to be seasonal.

The only way to boost that rate (since the probability of there being a brawler Legendary/Mythic Hero is pretty much zero right now) is to have one brawler on the banner and then have a Heroes character on the banner so that the banner has a brawler as an instant demote, but that's absolutely unrealistic to expect to happen enough times to match the release rate of colorless tomes.

For comparison, less than half, only 6 of the 14 colorless tomes, are Special Heroes. And unlike brawlers, there are candidates from every game, so there's no difficulty finding non-seasonal banners to put them on.

 

4 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Better reason than most of the others. Because, as you said, basically any tome unit could be colourless.

12 of the 14 units are either a main character, a legendary super character, or a Special Hero, any of which is a better reason to be a novelty class.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

How many are currently in the game doesn't matter because at one time, colorless tome was a viable weapon type with only one unit in the game. The size of the pool of candidates is what makes the weapon type viable, not the number of units currently released in the game.

Why so? Even if there's only one potential candidate then that can still function as a weapon. Just a very limited and exclusive one. What's your cut off point any way? There's less than 30 potential beast characters in the series (assuming they're not going to give us random laguz bosses like Seeker). Why is 30 viable but 10 isn't? What about 15, what about 20? You're kind of just arbitrarily declaring potential candidates is what matters when it kind of just doesn't.

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Hilda placed 9th in the last CYL and is the 5th-highest-voted character from Three Houses that doesn't have a Legendary alt (including Lysithea and Marianne above her).

Balthus placed 256th and is something like the 32nd-highest-voted character from Three Houses that doesn't have a Legendary alt.

Is it possible for Balthus to get an Ascended version? Sure.

Is it likely? Not at all.

Likely if they want to introduce Gauntlets as a weapon type.

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

For comparison:

• Florina is 4th-highest-voted playable character from Blazing Sword that doesn't yet have a Legendary alt
• Hilda is the 5th-highest-voted playable character from Three Houses that doesn't yet have a Legendary alt
• Idunn placed higher than the 1st-highest-voted playable character from Binding Blade that doesn't yet have a Legendary alt
• Ishtar placed higher than the 3rd-highest-voted playable character from Genealogy that doesn't yet have a Legendary alt
• Joshua is the 5th-highest-voted playable character from The Sacred Stones that doesn't yet have a Legendary alt
• Mareeta is the 2nd-highest-voted playable character from Thracia that doesn't yet have a Legendary alt

So?

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Each game in the series gets about 1 standard banner each year. Since we only have two games with canon brawlers (Three Houses and Engage), that's 2 units per year at most in the standard pool, assuming each banner for those games has a brawler in it. In order to match the rate of release of colorless tomes, a full 2/3 of all brawlers would need to be seasonal.

Yes, banner distribution is an issue, though I'm not sure why you're bringing it up like this as if I haven't already mentioned is as an issue.

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

The only way to boost that rate (since the probability of there being a brawler Legendary/Mythic Hero is pretty much zero right now) is to have one brawler on the banner and then have a Heroes character on the banner so that the banner has a brawler as an instant demote, but that's absolutely unrealistic to expect to happen enough times to match the release rate of colorless tomes.

I don't get what you're saying here. How would having a Heroes unit on a banner and making a Brawler a demote help the number of brawlers in some way? Ah, you mean by having two colours? Well they could just put two brawlers on the same banner, as they have had two of the same weapon types before. I don't particularly think they should do that, but it certainly wouldn't be against precedent. Speaking of a Heroes character though, that is another potential source of brawlers, if they introduce some OCs that are Brawlers. They've just done that to boost the number of beast candidates in the most recent book.

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

12 of the 14 units are either a main character, a legendary super character, or a Special Hero, any of which is a better reason to be a novelty class.

That's rather non sensical reasoning.

[Kori]

21 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

(since the probability of there being a brawler Legendary/Mythic Hero is pretty much zero right now)

Seiros should have been a brawler, and I wouldn't mind at all if they rereleased her to fix that.

 

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