Did Kaga intend for us to reposition our units in FE5?

[rdrouyn]

This is a pretty minor philosophical quibble mostly intended to spark fun discussion. 

I recently played through Thracia 776 with the Lil'Munster patch. I deliberately decided not to install the reposition patch in order to experience Thracia as Kaga intended. Well, Kaga is a madman so that might've not been the greatest idea, but I digress. Anyway, I think not being able to reposition units enhances the way Chapter 19 hits you in the mouth. I get the feeling that if Kaga was in charge of a remake of Thracia, he wouldn't allow you to reposition units in that chapter because it is supposed to be an attack that catches you off guard and causes casualties. Having said that, I ended up restarting the level and picking more mounted units so I could rescue and escape faster. In a way, I circumvented the mechanics by picking different combinations of units and restarting the map a couple of times. In practice, it was like repositioning but in a less transparent manner. 

So, my philosophical question to the board is this: Did Kaga deliberately intend for us to not reposition our units or did he just lack the tech to do so? And if it was deliberate, should we play as Kaga intended or screw that and install all the QOL updates possible?

 

Edit: I guess this could be extended to other NES/SNES era games as well. Experience them in their original form or patch them with QOL features?

Edited February 12, 2023 by rdrouyn

[AnonymousSpeed]

22 minutes ago, rdrouyn said:

In practice, it was like repositioning but in a less transparent manner.

This is another philosophical quibble of great quibbly fun-to-be-had. Is this really...not repositioning units? I mean, you can change which units you have and it will change their positions on the field. And if you can reset Chapter 19 anyway, would it really matter except for ironman players? And how much for ironman runs on a second playthrough? If it only catches you off guard the first time around, then the positioning might not even really matter for this.

26 minutes ago, rdrouyn said:

So, my philosophical question to the board is this: Did Kaga deliberately intend for us to not reposition our units or did he just lack the tech to do so? And if it was deliberate, should we play as Kaga intended or screw that and install all the QOL updates possible?

Anyway, the question at hand.

I'm not sure if the technology wasn't available (as mentioned, you can change which units you have and it will affect their position based on the deployment order) or if it wasn't just something they didn't think about. Quality-of-life improvements like repositioning units are one of those things which are only obvious once you've already had them.

Now, I don't really care much for authorial intent- death of the author all the way. I doubt Kaga intended for repositioning to be a feature you were deliberately deprived of. However, I can't say whether having it or not would make the experience better. For most other games, I'd support it, but Thracia is that weird case which actively enjoys trolling you.

My answer is not very direct, but I hope it was helpful anyway. God bless.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

FE4 lets you position how you like on that first turn - once you've finished your business at the Arena. In FE1 you could unintentionally reposition units by de-selecting them and re-selecting them. That order, from 2-16 (Marth is always #1) determines where they're standing. This is pretty essential for chapter 25, since your party is split and gradually getting walled in by closing doors and ambush spawns. I think Kaga means for players to reposition units through these "unintended methods". Just as he wouldn't mind players taking advantage of any other exploit or resetting over a beloved unit's death.

I'm willing to bet Kaga would argue that not being able to reposition makes Thracia chapter 19 more interesting (because it is, like how Three Houses chapter 13 is more interesting/frustrating due to its lack of player control), but I think it would be a white lie if he implied it wasn't anything other than unintended coincidence. If I programmed a Reposition Units screen into the game, free of charge, after chapter 19 was conceptualized during development, Kaga would happily accept and that would be the end of it.

[rdrouyn]

Yeah, thinking about it. it is probably just a lucky coincidence that the lack of repositioning fits really well with Chapter 19. All of the other levels that lack repositioning have no storyline reasoning behind it. I'm surprised that they didn't have repositioning implemented in the SNES era (it seems like something an experienced dev can throw together in a day or two) but it is probably because game dev timelines were a lot shorter and QOL wasn't seen as a priority. 

[Jotari]

Oh no, he fully intended for it to be as it is. Don't forget he implemented a minimum deployment count. That's not something we've ever seen in any other game, and it's not because the game functionally couldn't let you try to solo it with Leif. Chapter 19, and not just Chapter 19, but even 18 and 20, generally that whole run of the game, is completely designed around forcing you into a position and just dealing with it. If you could reposition your units then you could just abandon everyone you don't use in Chapter 19 and finish it immediately. Likewise, they most surely had the tech to just end a level when Leif escapes and everyone else being flagged as saved, but it was intentionally made so that anyone still on the map when Leif escapes is captured. Because Thracia's design philosophy at it's core isn't actually "This is bullshit", it's "This is the situation you're in, deal with it". And the game does give you tools to deal with it.  As mentioned, there is limited repositioning by changing who you actually deploy. But that makes who you bring to battle a weighted choice beyond should I or shouldn't I give exp to this unit. It's how will changing my initial team affect my strategy by changing my positions. You might change your mind and really want to put Finn into a given map after your initial tries fail and you realize you need him, but in bringing him in in exchange for someone else you potentially change everything about how you've been approaching the map so far. So you really need to consider whether it's worth it to change party formation.

Ideally I think a Thracia remake should have repositioning, but it should maintain this core idea and the reason it wasn't put there. My solution to Chapter 19 has always been make a Chapter 18x where you actually play through Dorias's failed attack on Ulster, and the units you chose to send to that battles are the ones trapped in the south in Chapter 19.

Edited February 12, 2023 by Jotari

[rdrouyn]

19 hours ago, Jotari said:

Oh no, he fully intended for it to be as it is. Don't forget he implemented a minimum deployment count. That's not something we've ever seen in any other game, and it's not because the game functionally couldn't let you try to solo it with Leif. Chapter 19, and not just Chapter 19, but even 18 and 20, generally that whole run of the game, is completely designed around forcing you into a position and just dealing with it. If you could reposition your units then you could just abandon everyone you don't use in Chapter 19 and finish it immediately. Likewise, they most surely had the tech to just end a level when Leif escapes and everyone else being flagged as saved, but it was intentionally made so that anyone still on the map when Leif escapes is captured. Because Thracia's design philosophy at it's core isn't actually "This is bullshit", it's "This is the situation you're in, deal with it". And the game does give you tools to deal with it.  As mentioned, there is limited repositioning by changing who you actually deploy. But that makes who you bring to battle a weighted choice beyond should I or shouldn't I give exp to this unit. It's how will changing my initial team affect my strategy by changing my positions. You might change your mind and really want to put Finn into a given map after your initial tries fail and you realize you need him, but in bringing him in in exchange for someone else you potentially change everything about how you've been approaching the map so far. So you really need to consider whether it's worth it to change party formation.

Ideally I think a Thracia remake should have repositioning, but it should maintain this core idea and the reason it wasn't put there. My solution to Chapter 19 has always been make a Chapter 18x where you actually play through Dorias's failed attack on Ulster, and the units you chose to send to that battles are the ones trapped in the south in Chapter 19.

The minimum deployment count feature is interesting, I hadn't fully considered the implications of that one. If that wasn't in place you could technically avoid the Chapter 19 ambush by just deploying Leif and escaping. A lot of the features seem to be geared towards putting your army in bad spots and having to work your way out of these holes. That I can definitively get behind. I feel like modern Fire Emblem is too afraid to put the player in "unfair" or frustrating situations and sometimes the older games can be a breath of fresh air in that regard. 

I like your idea about 18x, but there is something to be said about a total sucker punch plot beat coming out of nowhere and sending our hero out of his apparent comfort zone. Makes it feel like a true to life battlefield situation where a commander is relying on various units to get objectives done and has to adjust on the fly based on intel.

The only thing I didn't like about Leif's soldiers getting captured if they don't escape before him is that there is no in game warning or explanation when it starts happening. I can only imagine that it is one of those things that was on the game's manual and from an era where devs still thought that gamers actually read them. But a lot of players posting online seem to get caught off-guard by that one. And you don't find out about the effects until you start the next level. If you are one of those guys/gals who only uses one save slot per run you might accidentally soft-lock yourself out of the game and that is just unacceptable.  

On the other hand, it did make me appreciate more Radiant Dawn in retrospect. All the escape levels with the Dawn Brigade feel like a callback to Thracia. Not sure if it was intentional or not. And I don't remember if there were escape levels in the Fire Emblems in between FE5 and FE10. I'm sure there were, but RD had like 5 of them in a row, so it seems more deliberate. Of course, RD didn't penalize you if Micaiah escaped first but you wouldn't get all those sweet escape quotes if you did. 

Edited February 13, 2023 by rdrouyn

[Jotari]

10 minutes ago, rdrouyn said:

On the other hand, it did make me appreciate more Radiant Dawn in retrospect. All the escape levels with the Dawn Brigade feel like a callback to Thracia. Not sure if it was intentional or not. And I don't remember if there were escape levels in the Fire Emblems in between FE5 and FE10. I'm sure there were, but RD had like 5 of them in a row, so it seems more deliberate. Of course, RD didn't penalize you if Micaiah escaped first but you wouldn't get all those sweet escape quotes if you did. 

Radiant Dawn doesn't penalize you for escaping with Micaiah first, but it's not just escape quotes you get with other characters for escaping. Each character that escapes grants BEXP.

[rdrouyn]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Radiant Dawn doesn't penalize you for escaping with Micaiah first, but it's not just escape quotes you get with other characters for escaping. Each character that escapes grants BEXP.

Oh yeah I forgot about that. Now I'm even more convinced that it is somehow a callback to Thracia.

[Robert Stewart]

It's pretty clear to me that not being able to reposition units was intentional. The argument that it was due to technical limitations doesn't really make sense when FE2 and 3 both allowed unit repositioning. (FE4 technically doesn't, but every unit has effectively the same starting position there).

FE3 is the most relevant comparison. It uses basically the same system for unit selection as FE5, but allowed units to be repositioned by selecting them in a certain order and exiting the selection screen. They could have easily replicated the same system in FE5.

[rdrouyn]

10 hours ago, Robert Stewart said:

It's pretty clear to me that not being able to reposition units was intentional. The argument that it was due to technical limitations doesn't really make sense when FE2 and 3 both allowed unit repositioning. (FE4 technically doesn't, but every unit has effectively the same starting position there).

FE3 is the most relevant comparison. It uses basically the same system for unit selection as FE5, but allowed units to be repositioned by selecting them in a certain order and exiting the selection screen. They could have easily replicated the same system in FE5.

Fair enough. I haven't played FE1-FE3 so I didn't have that point of reference. FE4 didn't allow repositioning because, as you alluded to, every unit started out inside a castle. And I agree, repositioning isn't anything that is complicated technically. Just swap pointers around on a list. That is what made me suspicious that it was intentional. 

So it sounds like you would consider those QOL patches to be outside of the intended design for the game. Or am I misreading that? What's your take on QOL patches? To me it seems like it would diminish some aspects of the game (Like I mentioned, Chapter 19 in particular).

Edited February 14, 2023 by rdrouyn

[Punished Dayni]

I want to go into my perspective on this.

It's obviously intentional when you could reorder characters in some form in prior titles, that the forced order and minimum deployment numbers are a planned part of Thracia's design. However, as someone who immiserated himself trying to get a good first turn with Chapter 19 over 6 months in the pre-good patch days, I find this map in particular to be a case of going too far. Trying to get units down while also dealing with all the small side-objectives going on was a bit much personally.

I get this from a game design standpoint, but having the option to move characters was a genuinely positive addition to Thracia imo. You can bring up how this would encourage low deployment or just leaving scrubs at the bottom and Leif retreat, but having a compromise akin to MotE where you only get certain deployment slots depending on how many units you have, that each position is fixed based on who you deploy where as is already the case in this game, would I think at least try to prevent going for low-manning or cause players to account for the consequences of same in these cases.

In a game which already has a fair amount obscured by design, it makes sense. Doesn't mean those playing the game will all agree with it.

On 2/14/2023 at 5:10 AM, rdrouyn said:

So it sounds like you would consider those QOL patches to be outside of the intended design for the game. Or am I misreading that? What's your take on QOL patches? To me it seems like it would diminish some aspects of the game (Like I mentioned, Chapter 19 in particular).

There's QoL that may add clarity, but that information being obscured from the player was part of the design, even if for many they'd find that to be a decision that harms there experience.

Giving the option to move deployment does, though then again I personally do find removing that choice from the player to be an aggravation in and of itself. (For a narrative reason, why wouldn't the units who are in the southern half of C19 have been determined with Leif's involvement?) That choice does impact how I might play a chapter, so taking it away is restrictive imo.

[rdrouyn]

On 2/21/2023 at 12:58 PM, Punished Dayni said:

I want to go into my perspective on this.

It's obviously intentional when you could reorder characters in some form in prior titles, that the forced order and minimum deployment numbers are a planned part of Thracia's design. However, as someone who immiserated himself trying to get a good first turn with Chapter 19 over 6 months in the pre-good patch days, I find this map in particular to be a case of going too far. Trying to get units down while also dealing with all the small side-objectives going on was a bit much personally.

I get this from a game design standpoint, but having the option to move characters was a genuinely positive addition to Thracia imo. You can bring up how this would encourage low deployment or just leaving scrubs at the bottom and Leif retreat, but having a compromise akin to MotE where you only get certain deployment slots depending on how many units you have, that each position is fixed based on who you deploy where as is already the case in this game, would I think at least try to prevent going for low-manning or cause players to account for the consequences of same in these cases.

In a game which already has a fair amount obscured by design, it makes sense. Doesn't mean those playing the game will all agree with it.

There's QoL that may add clarity, but that information being obscured from the player was part of the design, even if for many they'd find that to be a decision that harms there experience.

Giving the option to move deployment does, though then again I personally do find removing that choice from the player to be an aggravation in and of itself. (For a narrative reason, why wouldn't the units who are in the southern half of C19 have been determined with Leif's involvement?) That choice does impact how I might play a chapter, so taking it away is restrictive imo.

Yeah there's no doubt that there is such a thing as going too far in the name of storytelling. Games should prioritize gameplay and user experience over storytelling. Having said that, I do appreciate what Kaga was going for and it did add something to the game in that particular instance. People installing these QOL patches wouldn't be able to appreciate the author's intention there. 

[Ⱥstra]

On 2/12/2023 at 2:06 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:

This is another philosophical quibble of great quibbly fun-to-be-had. Is this really...not repositioning units? I mean, you can change which units you have and it will change their positions on the field. And if you can reset Chapter 19 anyway, would it really matter except for ironman players? And how much for ironman runs on a second playthrough? If it only catches you off guard the first time around, then the positioning might not even really matter for this.

Anyway, the question at hand.

I'm not sure if the technology wasn't available (as mentioned, you can change which units you have and it will affect their position based on the deployment order) or if it wasn't just something they didn't think about. Quality-of-life improvements like repositioning units are one of those things which are only obvious once you've already had them.

Now, I don't really care much for authorial intent- death of the author all the way. I doubt Kaga intended for repositioning to be a feature you were deliberately deprived of. However, I can't say whether having it or not would make the experience better. For most other games, I'd support it, but Thracia is that weird case which actively enjoys trolling you.

My answer is not very direct, but I hope it was helpful anyway. God bless.

What exactly is the deployment order? I recently started up my first run of Thracia and am using Mekkahs quite brief, spoiler free guide as I play through it (I check his video  for each chapter before I start the map) and he briefly mentioned how one can mess around with the deployment order to get certain units in different positions.What exactly does this mean? Did he mean that switching out some units for other units whilst most are already on the map will rearrange stuff? I have not really experimented with this much and am already on chapter 15. Does this mean that the only way to get units in a way you like is by having to take out a unit and replace them with someone else, perhaps multiple times?

Oh and on a quick side note, this game is absolutely excellent. I have found that the difficulty is slightly exaggerated, though that is not a bad thing. The game is certainly challenging and I have reset maybe 5-7 times so far in total but I find that the difference between unit quality and enemy quality is extremely high, which makes life pretty easy at times. I am bit concerned for future maps though, since a dracoknight took my 2 warp staves, rescue staff and silence staff with him to hell, after he kidnapped Safy and then died and I tend not to reset for most things, even after losing 3 scrolls to the void in the arena of chapter 7.