Lyration and Oligoludia (beware unmarked endgame spoilers)

[Jotari]

So all the Emblems come with weapons from their own games associated with them. Well, mostly, Lyn gets Mulagir even though she never had it her own game, but she totally should have to begin with and it is important to her culture. Other than that, we're seeing all the classics. Ike even gets the hammer you use to cheese the Black Knight. So where in the world do Lyration and Oligoludia come from? At least Dragon Fist isn't a physical thing and comes from the representation that Alear can use arts when promoted. I guess it would have been a bit weird if you got the Emblem weapon Liberation while still having the actual Liberation sword, but they could have went the Heroes route and named it Liberation Prime or something (and have Wille Gantz as the second sword, though that would have been a bit funny considering you get it after you get Emblem Alear). But it seems like rather than pulling something from his history, Alear just pulls two swords out of complete nowhere to use as an Emblem. I'm kind of hoping someone will tell me these are a clever reference to something, but from what I can gather from a quick google search, they're completely made up words that only get hits for Fire Emblem. Though Lyration is close to Lyrate, an adjective meaning lyre shaped which I heavily doubt is related.

[Acacia Sgt]

I wonder if that's also their names in Japanese. Perhaps it'd be easier to discern if they're referencing something if we knew.

[goodperson707]

Them not being actual weapons while having effects based on Alear (modified Liberation effect and effective corrupted) is lore in and of itself and hardly random/pulled out of nowhere. 

Though on the name front there is no difference (well a lack of accent) in the textfiles which has a bunch of romanized names. 

Edit: Checked the actual datamine and it has the ID in Japanese. 

It's Lyration and Oligoludia but translated from Japanese to English and as if I used google translate.

Just for curiosity's sake I also did Dragon's fist. That was different as it was translated to Law of the Dragon God. Embellished perhaps but same spirit. 

Edited February 22, 2023 by goodperson707

[Jotari]

4 hours ago, goodperson707 said:

Them not being actual weapons while having effects based on Alear (modified Liberation effect and effective corrupted) is lore in and of itself and hardly random/pulled out of nowhere. 

What effective against corrupted association does Alear have? The main effective against corruption weapons I can think of are Sieglinde and Seraphim. And sure, Lyration has a similar effect to Liberation, which precisely why I question them not just calling it some variation of Liberation to begin with. As that is the actual sword Alear used in life before becoming an Emblem. Ike isn't getting Fagnell, a sword that has a similar effect to Ragnell, he's getting his actual sword that he actually used.

Edited February 22, 2023 by Jotari

[LoneStar]

I went and did some googling myself. Google suggested the word oliguria when I searched Oligoludia, which is some medical term for low urine output... I figured there must be some Latin or Greek origin, and oligo means small or little. I looked to see if ludia was something, and it says that it means beautiful or noble one. So small beautiful one or something. Referring to some precious and sublime thing probably. It kind of gives me the same vibe as the Sublime Sword of the Creator from 3Hs.

Then with Lyration being similar with lyrate, it doesn't literally have be lyre-like in appearance, but in function if that makes sense. So the invigorating sound is what boost the engage meter of allies. Engage was TMS 2 all along. Even more digging on the significance of the lyre in Greek history, it relates to Apollo the god of music and the Sun. Also Hermes the messenger god. On the Wikipedia page of Lyre it says that the lyre could have exited in neighboring countries to Greece including what was Lydia. The region of Lydia can also be called Ludia. So maybe that's the relation with Oligoludia.

I'm just parsing a bunch of random information so idk. This seems to be a similar case as the Ichival or Yewfelle, where IS just made up a weapon.

[goodperson707]

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

What effective against corrupted association does Alear have? The main effective against corruption weapons I can think of are Sieglinde and Seraphim. And sure, Lyration has a similar effect to Liberation, which precisely why I question them not just calling it some variation of Liberation to begin with. As that is the actual sword Alear used in life before becoming an Emblem. Ike isn't getting Fagnell, a sword that has a similar effect to Ragnell, he's getting his actual sword that he actually used.

Really, you're asking what association Alear has with corrupted? This is an unmarked spoiler thread. 

Again them having their own engage weapons is lore in and of itself. Also maybe next time think a little more about the name of a fake Ragnell after you edit this one.  

Edited February 22, 2023 by goodperson707

[Acacia Sgt]

Found this for a possible explanation for at least Lyration:

I can see the logic to it. The bond made manifest... into a sword.

Edited February 22, 2023 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

6 hours ago, goodperson707 said:

Really, you're asking what association Alear has with corrupted? This is an unmarked spoiler thread. 

You're changing your words there. You said effective corrupted. Alear has no innate weapons or skills that deal effective dammage to corrupted.

6 hours ago, goodperson707 said:

Again them having their own engage weapons is lore in and of itself. Also maybe next time think a little more about the name of a fake Ragnell after you edit this one.  

Why? What do you mean by that?

5 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Found this for a possible explanation for at least Lyration:

I can see the logic to it. The bond made manifest... into a sword.

Well it's nice to have some form of explanation, but it still seems a bit like grasping. It also shows that this is something puzzling the Japanese community too if they're discussing it.

Edited February 23, 2023 by Jotari

[goodperson707]

30 minutes ago, Jotari said:

You're changing your words there. You said effective corrupted. Alear has no innate weapons or skills that deal effective dammage to corrupted.

Why? What do you mean by that?

Well it's nice to have some form of explanation, but it still seems a bit like grasping. It also shows that this is something puzzling the Japanese community too if they're discussing it.

 

"in and of itself"

by itself; with respect to its intrinsic or inherent nature without consideration of extraneous factors; per se, intrinsically, inherently.

Alear has engage weapons of their own as the 13th emblem and they have to do with their character. That is applicable lore regardless of your tunnel vision on the other emblems weapons and is not taken from nowhere. 

Frankly I don't care for arguing with such pedantry as "effective: corrupted has nothing to do with corrupted", are you gonna remove the slur from your previous post or not? 

[Jotari]

22 minutes ago, goodperson707 said:

 

"in and of itself"

by itself; with respect to its intrinsic or inherent nature without consideration of extraneous factors; per se, intrinsically, inherently.

Alear has engage weapons of their own as the 13th emblem and they have to do with their character. That is applicable lore regardless of your tunnel vision on the other emblems weapons and is not taken from nowhere. 

Okay. What is the implication?

22 minutes ago, goodperson707 said:

Frankly I don't care for arguing with such pedantry as "effective: corrupted has nothing to do with corrupted",

You said "Them not being actual weapons while having effects based on Alear (modified Liberation effect and effective corrupted)" and I questioned what effective corrupted abilities Alear had, as I thought it possible there was something I've overlooked.

22 minutes ago, goodperson707 said:

are you gonna remove the slur from your previous post or not? 

When I said what do you mean by that, this is what I meant. I literally had no idea what you were talking about. You really want me to edit my post?

[goodperson707]

Just now, Jotari said:

Okay. What is the implication?

You said "Them not being actual weapons while having effects based on Alear (modified Liberation effect and effective corrupted)" and I questioned what effective corrupted abilities Alear had, as I thought it possible there was something I've overlooked.

When I said what do you mean by that, this is what I meant. I literally had no idea what you were talking about. You really want me to edit my post?

Okay I have no time for such pedantry as "abilities based on Alear = abilities they already have". Do you or do you not understand why it's fitting for Alear to gain an effective corrupted sword?

The "implication" is that they have engage weapons that are based on their character and not weapons they have used, because they do and that is in and of itself lore. 

You can do what you want with your slur, editing it away or reviewing your post to find it simply changes how I and others view your use of it. 

[Jotari]

14 minutes ago, goodperson707 said:

Okay I have no time for such pedantry as "abilities based on Alear = abilities they already have". Do you or do you not understand why it's fitting for Alear to gain an effective corrupted sword?

The "implication" is that they have engage weapons that are based on their character and not weapons they have used, because they do and that is in and of itself lore. 

You can do what you want with your slur, editing it away or reviewing your post to find it simply changes how I and others view your use of it. 

Okay, I'm sensing a lot of hostility from you. Do you have an issue with me? Because I'm not interested in getting into one of those internet screaming matches over nothing. What I'm talking about here is very straight forward and simple. All of the Emblems get actual real weapons from their games except Alear (and to some extent, Lyn). I think this is an incongruity and would like some form of explanation. You feel like you have that explanation, but honestly I don't think you're actually being as forthcoming with your logic as you think you are. Do Lyration and Oligoludia have effects that make sense on Alear? Sure. But still, what are they and where did they come from? Because, again, the other embelms don't get new weapons with effects based on their characters. If Ike had another sword with similar powers to Ragnell, people would be scratching their heads and wondering where Ragnell is and why we have this other sword, even if it does visually and mechanically suit Ike.

Edited February 23, 2023 by Jotari

[goodperson707]

4 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Okay, I'm sensing a lot of hostility from you. Do you have an issue with me? Because I'm not interested in getting into one of those internet screaming matches over nothing. What I'm talking about here is very straight forward and simple. All of the Emblems get actual real weapons from their games except Alear (and to some extent, Lyn). I think this is an incongruity and would like some form of explanation. You feel like you have that explanation, but honestly I don't think you're actually being as forthcoming with your logic as you think you are. Do Lyration and Oligoludia have effects that make sense on Alear? Sure. But still, what are they and where did they come from? Because, again, the other embelms don't get new weapons with effects based on their characters. If Ike had another sword with similar powers to Ragnell, people would be scratching their heads and wondering where Ragnell is and why we have this other sword, even if it does visually and mechanically suit Ike.

I'm done trying to explain that them having weapons is in and of itself lore and points to how them being the 13th emblem works. At least this hypothetical sword doesn't contain a slur this time. 

Edited February 23, 2023 by goodperson707

[Jotari]

1 minute ago, goodperson707 said:

I'm done trying to explain that them having weapons is in and of itself lore and points to how them being the 13th emblem works. At leas this hypothetical sword isn't a slur this time. 

Alright. Have a nice day. Glad you're bowing out now before this becomes a whole thing.

[goodperson707]

4 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Alright. Have a nice day. Glad you're bowing out now before this becomes a whole thing.

Just cause you started this thread already having reached a conclusion doesn't mean discussion won't arise, I'm just done trying to explain simple concepts to a brick wall.

[Acacia Sgt]

Considering the way characters gain bond levels with Emblem Alear, I stand all the weapons (including the Arts one) are the manifestation of said bonds given form. They just happened to manifest as swords, but then, that is what Alear wields. As for why one is an Arts... maybe it is canon the supports with Pannette where she teaches them hand-to-hand combat? Beats me.

Regarding Oligoludia and its effectiveness against Corrupted, I'd chalk it to being the Divine Dragon essence.

[Jotari]

59 minutes ago, goodperson707 said:

Just cause you started this thread already having reached a conclusion doesn't mean discussion won't arise, I'm just done trying to explain simple concepts to a brick wall.

Oh I'm entirely open to discussion. That's why I started the thread. I just don't follow your train of logic. You argue the effects of Alear's weapons are a representation of Alear's character, and, yeah, that's true to some extent, but you could argue that no matter what the effects are. If they came with a self healing effect you could reference the fact that Alear slept to recover after the war. If it came with an invasion boost you could make it a reference to how Alear wanted to run away from the corrupted. If you make it a dragon effective effect then you have the same logic as the corrupt, Alear is the one who fights them. Your argument boils down to "Alears effect synergize with his characters" which doesn't actually explain the question as to where do these weapons come from and what do their names mean? Which is abundantly clear for every other Emblem.

38 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Considering the way characters gain bond levels with Emblem Alear, I stand all the weapons (including the Arts one) are the manifestation of said bonds given form. They just happened to manifest as swords, but then, that is what Alear wields. As for why one is an Arts... maybe it is canon the supports with Pannette where she teaches them hand-to-hand combat? Beats me.

Regarding Oligoludia and its effectiveness against Corrupted, I'd chalk it to being the Divine Dragon essence.

A cool way that could have been implemented would be if Alear got different weapons depending on who they engaged with. Kind of like Byleth only in reverse.

[goodperson707]

20 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Oh I'm entirely open to discussion. That's why I started the thread. I just don't follow your train of logic. You argue the effects of Alear's weapons are a representation of Alear's character, and, yeah, that's true to some extent, but you could argue that no matter what the effects are. If they came with a self healing effect you could reference the fact that Alear slept to recover after the war. If it came with an invasion boost you could make it a reference to how Alear wanted to run away from the corrupted. If you make it a dragon effective effect then you have the same logic as the corrupt, Alear is the one who fights them. Your argument boils down to "Alears effect synergize with his characters" which doesn't actually explain the question as to where do these weapons come from and what do their names mean? Which is abundantly clear for every other Emblem.

A cool way that could have been implemented would be if Alear got different weapons depending on who they engaged with. Kind of like Byleth only in reverse.

They already have fell dragon effectiveness. That they are different from the other emblems is lore on its own merits that is the argument. You are free to take it or leave it but ignoring it at this point is pure denial. 

Also maybe instead of passive aggressive sniping at my "hostility" you could edit your posts for typos, autocorrect and accidental slurs.  

Edited February 23, 2023 by goodperson707

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, goodperson707 said:

They already have fell dragon effectiveness. That they are different from the other emblems is lore on its own merits that is the argument. You are free to take it or leave it but ignoring it at this point is pure denial. 

Also maybe instead of passive aggressive sniping at my "hostility" you could edit your posts for typos, autocorrect and accidental slurs.  

What you perceive as sniping is not coming to me. Listen and believe me here because I'm being completely serious. I have no desire to fight with you. I've asked you already if you want me to edit my post and you gave me a complete non answer. If you want me to, I will. And if you want to talk about Alear's weapons and want their names are about, I will. Because that's all I am interested in here. And I hope the same is true for you. If you want to talk about them, then yes, let's. But if you're really convinced I'm some how ignoring what you're saying and can't be convinced well then good for you, go about your day. I can let it go. I have no interest or desire to insult you, attack you or even convince you of anything. I just want to talk about Fire Emblem.

[goodperson707]

10 minutes ago, Jotari said:

What you perceive as sniping is not coming to me. Listen and believe me here because I'm being completely serious. I have no desire to fight with you. I've asked you already if you want me to edit my post and you gave me a complete non answer. If you want me to, I will. And if you want to talk about Alear's weapons and want their names are about, I will. Because that's all I am interested in here. And I hope the same is true for you. If you want to talk about them, then yes, let's. But if you're really convinced I'm some how ignoring what you're saying and can't be convinced well then good for you, go about your day. I can let it go. I have no interest or desire to insult you, attack you or even convince you of anything. I just want to talk about Fire Emblem.

Okay I'm sensing a lot of hostility from you. 

Why would you not want to edit out (accidental) slurs yourself? Why does what I want matter?

Not sure why you think I'd be convinced that you're ignoring my points about Emblem Alear in a post that's ignoring my points about emblem Alear. A mystery of the like of why Emblem Alear is different than the other emblems. 

Edited February 23, 2023 by goodperson707

[Jotari]

6 minutes ago, goodperson707 said:

Okay I'm sensing a lot of hostility from you. 

Please, don't. There's none there.

6 minutes ago, goodperson707 said:

Why would you not want to edit out accidental slurs yourself? Why does what I want matter?

Because you're the one it's bothering. I don't see it as a slur anymore than I view the west African county next to Chad and Mali a slur. But if you really care then I'll change it for you. But you've made such a big hubbub about it now I'd question the point. Anyone reading is going to know what went down.

Just tell me what you want from me and we'll end this. Because I've already told you what I'm after.

[goodperson707]

17 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Please, don't. There's none there.

Because you're the one it's bothering. I don't see it as a slur anymore than I view the west African county next to Chad and Mali a slur. But if you really care then I'll change it for you. But you've made such a big hubbub about it now I'd question the point. Anyone reading is going to know what went down.

Just tell me what you want from me and we'll end this. Because I've already told you what I'm after.

Exactly so don't tone police me. Enjoy your enlightened view on slurs when you continue to ignore the multiple points I offered to discuss. 

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, goodperson707 said:

Exactly so don't tone police me. Enjoy your enlightened view on slurs when you continue to ignore the multiple points I offered to discuss. 

But I'm not policing you.

[Eltosian Kadath]

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

Because, again, the other embelms don't get new weapons with effects based on their characters. If Ike had another sword with similar powers to Ragnell, people would be scratching their heads and wondering where Ragnell is and why we have this other sword, even if it does visually and mechanically suit Ike.

They literally did that with Lyn, summoning her ultimate weapon from an entirely different game, but whose reason for being there is based on her character, while her actual ultimate weapon is ignored. Although I think the example of Leif is more enlightening, as they frankensteined two versions of him together to give him both a Master Lance, and Killer Axe he is never capable of using in either game. Similarly they arbitrarily put the Parthia into Lucina hands, a weapon that is basically DLC only fan service in her game. Some of the Emblems they put thought and care into what their Emblem Weapons would be, in others they cared more about the gameplay. Finally I will note that while Fire Emblem often references mythology, and history for their weapon names, some of them are just nonsense words like Forblaze.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

They literally did that with Lyn, summoning her ultimate weapon from an entirely different game, but whose reason for being there is based on her character, while her actual ultimate weapon is ignored. Although I think the example of Leif is more enlightening, as they frankensteined two versions of him together to give him both a Master Lance, and Killer Axe he is never capable of using in either game. Similarly they arbitrarily put the Parthia into Lucina hands, a weapon that is basically DLC only fan service in her game. Some of the Emblems they put thought and care into what their Emblem Weapons would be, in others they cared more about the gameplay. Finally I will note that while Fire Emblem often references mythology, and history for their weapon names, some of them are just nonsense words like Forblaze.

All true. Though I'd barely even say they frakensteined Leif, it's pretty much all Genealogy (really wish they'd given him some kind of status immunity to reference his unique properties in Thracia). I also would say they were thinking about gameplay for all of the Emblems. Some of them just provide more natural authenticity. Celica, is another example of being hybridized with Fire Emblem in general with her recover staff. She does indeed learn a spell called Recover in her games, but it's more on par with heal compared to the full heal of recover (though I think Recover in Engage, much like elixirs, doesn't actually grant full recovery, but it is a higher tier than Celica's recovery would be). And, coming to think of it, the only Engage attack that actually comes from anything specific in the games is Great Aether, Great Sacrifice and Goddess Dance. Loestar Rush, Warp Ragnarok, Quadriple Hit, Override, Blazing Lion,Twin Strike, Astra Storm (astra didn't even exist in GBA Fire Emblem), All For One, they suit the characters on a visual and conceptual level, but aren't actually stuff they do in their games (though Corrin does have the dragon arm animation in Dragon Fang). And even among the ones I've listed only Goddess Dance is a 1:1.