Minerva as an enemy, a missed oppertunity

[Jotari]

So in Chapter 10 of Shadow Dragon you have to rescue Maria from Castle Deil so Minerva, and eventually her underlings, isn't being blackmailed any more and can join you. If you don't do this you lose access to Maria, Minerva, Palla, Catria, Est, Hautclere and Mercurius...so obviously you're going to do it. But what if you don't? What if you kill or ignore Maria instead? Well then all of these characters just go poof and vanish from the story entirely.

But if you kill Maria, Minerva will start attacking you. You don't get any cutscene or anything, but she's clearly pissed. I think the game should have run with that. If you fail the objective in Chapter 10, then Minerva and the White Wings remain enemies. The White Wings show up in the Gra chapter as enemies like usual, but you can't speak to them. Minerva is later deployed alongside Michalis in his last stand. I think it'd just be really cool to see brother and sister working against you, united by Marth's inexplicable betrayal. It would be a minor thing, and relatively easy to implement, and it would make the characters and world feel more real and lived in compared to Minerva and the white wings just vanishing entirely. Course it's possible if you kill Maria that they just exit the war entirely to go off and have adventures in Valentia or something, but we don't get a cutscene to that effect either. It's clear the creators just never considered the scenario where a player would be incompetent or inconsiderate enough to just fail to rescue Maria (I'm sure she's abandoned in many an LTC run).

And you know what, even though killing Maria leads to you losing a bunch of characters and two of the best weapons in the game...I think players would actually do it. Because not only is Shadow Dragon the game that has the weird incentive to kill you're party and keep your total unit count low, it also has the event recap. Finding the alternate conversations is part of completion of the game. I know I got Marth's army slaughtered in the prologue to see Norne's recruitment just to have her in the vent recap, and I'm assuredly not the only one. With the conversations in a Maria dead timeline in the game then people would kill her just to see what happens on re-playthroughs.

So, yeah. I think they should have had a few alternate cutscenes to a scenario in which Minerva and the White Wings remain with the enemy throughout the game.

[Acacia Sgt]

While it'd make sense for Minerva to resent Marth, I doubt she'd stick with Michalis. She was all too ready to be against him, if not for him putting Maria into that situation to begin with. A part of her will not forget that, even if Marth's army killed Maria, it was Michalis who put Maria in that cell to begin with. So she will put part of the blame on Michalis. And since Michalis had already killed their father, then that's two family members killed due to his actions. As such, Minerva will still defect, since there's nothing holding her back anymore.

Join Marth? Sure, unlikely now... but outright impossible? I wonder. One thing I like that SoV did is that, should Alm fail to rescue Mathilda, Clive is quite angry about it... but in the end begrudgingly admits Alm is still producing results, so he doesn't try, or is quick to back-down, from trying to come to blows with Alm about it. A similar thing could be done with Minerva. Much she may dislike Marth now, he's still the only one that can save them all from Medeus. It would be more interesting if we could have this terse alliance of convenience. With Minerva not letting him forget she may one day enact revenge for the death of her sister... but for now, they're allies of convenience, nothing more.

[Jotari]

2 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

While it'd make sense for Minerva to resent Marth, I doubt she'd stick with Michalis. She was all too ready to be against him, if not for him putting Maria into that situation to begin with. A part of her will not forget that, even if Marth's army killed Maria, it was Michalis who put Maria in that cell to begin with. So she will put part of the blame on Michalis. And since Michalis had already killed their father, then that's two family members killed due to his actions. As such, Minerva will still defect, since there's nothing holding her back anymore.

Join Marth? Sure, unlikely now... but outright impossible? I wonder. One thing I like that SoV did is that, should Alm fail to rescue Mathilda, Clive is quite angry about it... but in the end begrudgingly admits Alm is still producing results, so he doesn't try, or is quick to back-down, from trying to come to blows with Alm about it. A similar thing could be done with Minerva. Much she may dislike Marth now, he's still the only one that can save them all from Medeus. It would be more interesting if we could have this terse alliance of convenience. With Minerva not letting him forget she may one day enact revenge for the death of her sister... but for now, they're allies of convenience, nothing more.

That's certainly a route they would have went if they had any interest in making Minerva an actual major character of the plot, like Clive. But instead, their adherence to fidelity of remaking a NES game left Minerva and Hardin out in the cold as character who could appear in the main story beyond their original role in it.

[Acacia Sgt]

9 minutes ago, Jotari said:

That's certainly a route they would have went if they had any interest in making Minerva an actual major character of the plot, like Clive. But instead, their adherence to fidelity of remaking a NES game left Minerva and Hardin out in the cold as character who could appear in the main story beyond their original role in it.

Maybe for when the next Archanea remakes come over.

The DS ones were minimalistic, but with SoV we've seen they no longer seem to have that mentality anymore (even New Mystery had already strayed from how Shadow Dragon did it to a degree).

Edited March 9, 2023 by Acacia Sgt

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

18 hours ago, Jotari said:

But if you kill Maria, Minerva will start attacking you. You don't get any cutscene or anything, but she's clearly pissed. I think the game should have run with that. If you fail the objective in Chapter 10, then Minerva and the White Wings remain enemies. The White Wings show up in the Gra chapter as enemies like usual, but you can't speak to them. Minerva is later deployed alongside Michalis in his last stand. I think it'd just be really cool to see brother and sister working against you, united by Marth's inexplicable betrayal. It would be a minor thing, and relatively easy to implement, and it would make the characters and world feel more real and lived in compared to Minerva and the white wings just vanishing entirely. Course it's possible if you kill Maria that they just exit the war entirely to go off and have adventures in Valentia or something, but we don't get a cutscene to that effect either. It's clear the creators just never considered the scenario where a player would be incompetent or inconsiderate enough to just fail to rescue Maria (I'm sure she's abandoned in many an LTC run).

I could perhaps see the Whitewings going after Marth for revenge. But I'm really not interested in seeing Minerva pull a "damn, I've been defeated! But I can't fall here. I must retreat!" The fact that "people die if they are killed" is one of Shadow Dragon's best storytelling aspects, evincing a commendable commitment to gameplay-story integration. And as @Acacia Sgt pointed out, Minerva teaming up with her scumbag of a brother, who imprisoned Maria in the first place, seems an unlikely and uncharacteristic turn.

18 hours ago, Jotari said:

I know I got Marth's army slaughtered in the prologue to see Norne's recruitment just to have her in the vent recap, and I'm assuredly not the only one.

Norne, you can get just by having one "excess death" in the Prologue. But you do need to kill his whole army off to get a very specific story scene - wherein, with all of Marth's allies defeated, the northern door in Prologue IV is opened. It's a separate trigger from setting a Decoy, or killing an unrecruited "Gaggles", either of which will also get the door to open.

18 hours ago, Jotari said:

It's clear the creators just never considered the scenario where a player would be incompetent or inconsiderate enough to just fail to rescue Maria (I'm sure she's abandoned in many an LTC run).

No, they almost certainly did. Failing to rescue Maria keeps Minerva as an enemy, resulting in her facing off with Marth's army and being killed in the process. "Minerva as an enemy" is not a missed opportunity, it's... literally canonical.

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I could perhaps see the Whitewings going after Marth for revenge. But I'm really not interested in seeing Minerva pull a "damn, I've been defeated! But I can't fall here. I must retreat!" The fact that "people die if they are killed" is one of Shadow Dragon's best storytelling aspects, evincing a commendable commitment to gameplay-story integration. And as @Acacia Sgt pointed out, Minerva teaming up with her scumbag of a brother, who imprisoned Maria in the first place, seems an unlikely and uncharacteristic turn.

No, they almost certainly did. Failing to rescue Maria keeps Minerva as an enemy, resulting in her facing off with Marth's army and being killed in the process. "Minerva as an enemy" is not a missed opportunity, it's... literally canonical.

Yes, but what if you finish the chapter without killing her? What happens then? I wasn't suggesting she be immune to death status

(and I agree, that's a nice thing about Shadow Dragon...real shame Mystery of the Emblem came along and decided to revive every major villain not named Jiol).

3 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Norne, you can get just by having one "excess death" in the Prologue. But you do need to kill his whole army off to get a very specific story scene - wherein, with all of Marth's allies defeated, the northern door in Prologue IV is opened. It's a separate trigger from setting a Decoy, or killing an unrecruited "Gaggles", either of which will also get the door to open.

Well for the sake of cutscene acquirement, Norne and the mass party death scene are going to be paired together. Course if you're filling out the Event Recap, you're going to be playing that chapter multiple times over to get all the decoy cutscenes.

Edited March 9, 2023 by Jotari

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Yes, but what if you finish the chapter without killing her? What happens then? I wasn't suggesting she be immune to death status

Oh okay, my bad. Yeah, it'd be interesting if they did something with Minerva if ashe survives the chapter without being recruited.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

(and I agree, that's a nice thing about Shadow Dragon...real shame Mystery of the Emblem came along and decided to revive every major villain not named Jiol).

Broke: Kris ruins New Mystery's story by supplanting Jagen's role and messing with Marth's characterization.

Woke: Old Mystery's story was already bad because it retconned all the major deaths from the last game. Atleast Kris and the Assasins subplot are fun.

Bespoke: Kris is irrelevant. The revived villains matter not. Both Mystery games were doomed from the start, because they disrespected Pyrathi.

[Jotari]

39 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Broke: Kris ruins New Mystery's story by supplanting Jagen's role and messing with Marth's characterization.

Woke: Old Mystery's story was already bad because it retconned all the major deaths from the last game. Atleast Kris and the Assasins subplot are fun.

Bespoke: Kris is irrelevant. The revived villains matter not. Both Mystery games were doomed from the start, because they disrespected Pyrathi.

You've got to fit Old Mystery being 60% Xane's expositiondump in there somewhere too.

Edited March 10, 2023 by Jotari

[AnonymousSpeed]

On 3/8/2023 at 8:16 PM, Jotari said:

That's certainly a route they would have went if they had any interest in making Minerva an actual major character of the plot, like Clive. But instead, their adherence to fidelity of remaking a NES game left Minerva and Hardin out in the cold as character who could appear in the main story beyond their original role in it.

Honestly, I think Shadow Dragon is better for it.

I think it would have been a horrible decision to have Minerva and Hardin retreat when defeated and then show up in an "expanded" role, and I think it worked poorly for Clive and Tobin and all the rest there. Because, let's be real here, they don't really do anything. It's not even an issue with these being remakes. What does Diamant do in Engage? He stands around and talks to Alear during cutscenes. These extra characters have no agency or meaningful impact. Talking is usually all these extra characters do, and you can have Malledus do that just fine without having people live when they are killed.

[Jotari]

38 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Honestly, I think Shadow Dragon is better for it.

I think it would have been a horrible decision to have Minerva and Hardin retreat when defeated and then show up in an "expanded" role, and I think it worked poorly for Clive and Tobin and all the rest there. Because, let's be real here, they don't really do anything. It's not even an issue with these being remakes. What does Diamant do in Engage? He stands around and talks to Alear during cutscenes. These extra characters have no agency or meaningful impact. Talking is usually all these extra characters do, and you can have Malledus do that just fine without having people live when they are killed.

Well then give them expanded roles that can still be removed if they are killed.

[AnonymousSpeed]

8 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well then give them expanded roles that can still be removed if they are killed.

1. Like what?
2. Why?

[Jotari]

22 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

1. Like what?
2. Why?

Like what I'm suggesting here. If Minerva doesn't die or get recruited in Chapter 10 she appears again later as an enemy.

[AnonymousSpeed]

On 3/10/2023 at 10:02 PM, Jotari said:

Like what I'm suggesting here. If Minerva doesn't die or get recruited in Chapter 10 she appears again later as an enemy.

I feel like there might be a miscommunication here. Aren't we talking about characters who retreat when their HP hits 0?

[Jotari]

4 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

I feel like there might be a miscommunication here. Aren't we talking about characters who retreat when their HP hits 0?

No, the suggestion here is that Minerva and the White Wings remain as enemies in the game if Marth fails to save Maria in Chapter 10 (and you don't also kill minerva in said chapter). It's a suggestion for an expanded role that doesn't have anything to do with her ever joining the player. I mentioned characters who retreat like Clive in the opening, but only because that was the obvious thing to do with a character like Minerva. But the suggestion with this topic is that Shadow Dragon is more or less identical to how it already is, and in fact the unique mechanics of Shadow Dragon (encouraging you to have a low total army count and recording all alternative cutscenes as some kind of collectable) are reasons why players would still do so even without the obvious material gains that come with recruiting Maria and Minerva.

As for retreatable characters in general, that's honestly going to be a trade off based on how good they're written. You brought up Diamant,a nd sure, the royals in Engage are pretty useless once their immediate chapters are over (and even before then for Timerra), they don't even get to stand around as extras in most cutscenes. But on the converse, I don't have any issue with Soren and Tatiana being playable characters and indeed I think you'd lose something of their dynamic if they didn't have the potential to fight right alongside him. And if Mist could literally be killed in gameplay then it would have a massive impact on Ike's character as she's his last living relative and he okayed the decision to place her on the battle field. So unless you want two scripts diverging from the point she becomes playable, one where everything's fine and one where Ike is a lot more morose and regretful, it's better that she's a character who retreats.

All that being said, on the subject of Hardin and Minerva being given larger roles, yet still being characters who can die, you could still find reasons to give them lines every now and then. Like they already at the start of the Michalis chapter if you field Minerva, Marth asks how she feels about fighting her brother. More optional cutscenes like that (it's literally the only instance of them having a cutscene like that, for all the alternative conversations the game has it's usually for failing or passing a sub task in a specific way, very few for "Is X character alive and relevant to the current chapter"). Hardin in particular suffers from this as the entire dramatic core of the sequel depends on his characterization, yet they've remade the game twice now and failed to show us any actual characterization for him at all. Best we have is his appearance in Archanea Saga, and even that isn't much beyond generic good guy.