Radiant Dawn's Story Was Going So Well... And Then Blood Pact *Minor Spoilers*

[Arvis4Prez]

I love the stories in Fire Emblem. The narratives and the characters are the main pull to keep me playing, and in the story department, Radiant Dawn was doing so well for itself. Until you reach the blood pact. So, according to the game, after Pelleas's coronation, Lekain had him sign a blood pact, where Pelleas must follow Lekain's orders, or else Daein citizens will die until Pelleas does. Now, Pelleas learns that Izuka betrayed him here because Izuka had looked over the blood pact and said it was fine for Pelleas to sign. It's because of the blood pact that Daein enters the war between Begnion and the Laguz Alliance.

Now, what's wrong with this? While I'm not against blood pacts existing in the world of Tellius (it's a fantasy land with shapeshifting folks and magic, so suspension of disbelief is required), the problem is the blood pact really screws over the characterization of Pelleas and Micaiah (and the rest of the Dawn Brigade by extension). In 3-6, when Micaiah is talking to Sothe about being called into action, Sothe asks why they're even taking orders from Begnion, and is appalled when Micaiah seems to casually tell him that the soldiers get a bounty for each laguz they kill ("Listen to yourself! Laguz huting?! That's just great. We've gone from being freedom fighters to bigots in the blink of an eye.") Micaiah says she doesn't want to fight, but that as general of the Daein Army, she can't refuse. In fairness to Micaiah, that's true, but she also has been shown to refuse Izuka in Part 1, when Izuka was as powerful (but really more powerful) than Pelleas. Not to mention that generals have been shown to advise leaders of a country, so it would have been nice if Micaiah had a scene where she was objecting to the idea of fighting the Laguz Alliance before relenting. Instead, Pelleas tells her to take up arms against the Laguz Alliance, and then the next scene is between Micaiah and Sothe. It feels like a betrayal of Micaiah's character from Part 1, especially when you consider how angry she got with Izuka for drugging Muarim and attempting to transform him into a Feral One.

That said, I don't hate the idea of Daein siding with Begnion in the war against the Laguz Alliance. I just wish they had gone about it a different way. For instance, perhaps Izuka stays in Daein, and effectively becomes king through Pelleas. You could even have Izuka blackmail Pelleas by telling him that he's not Ashnard's son, and if that got out, Pelleas would be attacked, maybe even killed, for betraying the people of Daein. Micaiah hears of Pelleas's authorization to mobilize against the Laguz Alliance and wants to advise him to not follow through on it. Izuka pops in and reveals that he knows she's a Branded, and if she tries to stop Pelleas, she'll be outed. This would cause Micaiah to freeze up (she had previously stated she's terrified about what would happen if people found out she's Branded) and go along with it. That way, you're keeping with their established characterizations, and Izuka can be abducted sometime during part 4. 

I don't know, what are your thoughts on the blood pact?

[Acacia Sgt]

Many things have been said about the Blood Pact over the years...

They mostly exist to railroad the story, could've been done without. Ironically, the contents of the Blood Pact itself were already a valid way. The Extended Script reveals the Blood Pact states how Begnion would pay for reparations, interest free, no deadline to pay back... that could've already been a good way to coerce Daein. No magic contract, just old-fashioned politics. Blame the Laguz for forcing Begnion to suspend reparations. Play into Daein's racism. Since regardless of the Blood Pact, the people of Daein are itching to fight Laguz, to the point of siding with their previous oppressors (which is dumb, but sadly not unrealistic), but instead of playing that angle to make Pelleas and Micaiah feel pressured to comply with their citizens' wishes despite not being the best option to take... nope, any nuance is thrown out of the window thanks to the Blood Pact.

Edited July 18, 2023 by Acacia Sgt

[Aedan7479]

I wish they explored it a little more. If Daein is renamed, or conquered by another kingdom such as Crimea, is the blood pact still effective? Also, does it apply to everyone who is inside of Daein's boarders, everyone who was born in Daein, or everyone who is legally a Daein citizen? There are so many questions, and I would assume they're covered in the contract itself, but it's not elaborated much in game.

As for Micaiah just listening to Pelleas, the game gives a reason I consider decent: she doesn't want to undermine Pelleas' authority anymore, lest people rally behind her instead of him. Micaiah basically becomes a Camus during part 3, which I think is an interesting idea, and effective; I felt genuinely bad killing those Laguz in 3-6. 

[Acacia Sgt]

Pft, now I got reminded of a crackfic that does just that. They officially rename Daein and POOF, Blood Pact invalidated.

EDIT: Oh, wait! It was Naesala who renames Kilvas. Daein does the "annexed by Crimea" route.

On a serious note, there's certainly enough implications that the wording of the Pact is important. This is why it's able to jump from Pelleas to Micaiah despite the former killing himself, and why only Lekain's death can truly stop it. And also how Naesala can defy the Senate by simply following Sanaki's orders.

Edited July 18, 2023 by Acacia Sgt

[Florete]

Ah, another "Blood Pact bad" topic. Thrilling.

My thoughts are that it's fine.

1 hour ago, Arvis4Prez said:

Micaiah says she doesn't want to fight, but that as general of the Daein Army, she can't refuse. In fairness to Micaiah, that's true, but she also has been shown to refuse Izuka in Part 1, when Izuka was as powerful (but really more powerful) than Pelleas. Not to mention that generals have been shown to advise leaders of a country, so it would have been nice if Micaiah had a scene where she was objecting to the idea of fighting the Laguz Alliance before relenting. Instead, Pelleas tells her to take up arms against the Laguz Alliance, and then the next scene is between Micaiah and Sothe. It feels like a betrayal of Micaiah's character from Part 1, especially when you consider how angry she got with Izuka for drugging Muarim and attempting to transform him into a Feral One.

Micaiah very clearly - and unsurprisingly - trusts Pelleas more than Izuka. She's not even technically wrong to trust Pelleas here, as she continues his fight after he dies.

[Arvis4Prez]

11 minutes ago, Florete said:

Ah, another "Blood Pact bad" topic. Thrilling.

My thoughts are that it's fine.

Micaiah very clearly - and unsurprisingly - trusts Pelleas more than Izuka. She's not even technically wrong to trust Pelleas here, as she continues his fight after he dies.

I don't know. I suppose you could call it a character flaw of Micaiah, but I feel like it's either misused or just a dumb character flaw. Izuka makes it clear several times throughout part 1 that he's basically controlling Pelleas's strings. If she trusts Pelleas, but not Izuka, then there should be some effort made, I would think, to make sure that orders are coming from Pelleas, and not from Izuka. Someone else pointed out in this thread that Micaiah didn't want to go against Pelleas because she didn't want to undermine him like she had been doing in part 1, which is a fair look at it. But I'm confused by you saying that she's not technically wrong to trust Pelleas because she continues fighting after he dies. I assume this is in reference to Pelleas mentioning the blood pact in 3-12, and how if he doesn't comply with the Senate's orders, then the blood pact will destroy Daein. I'm fine with that part, but I'm referring to her actions in 3-6 and onwards up until Pelleas tells her what's happened. Because in game, she has no idea that there's an active blood pact on Daein. Sure, she was right to trust in Pelleas and follow his orders because if she didn't, Daein citizens would die, but she doesn't know that will happen. 

It might just be me, but I figure that in a game with a lot of treason, betrayal, and duplicity, Micaiah would be smart enough to not blindly follow orders. And maybe it would have been fine if she had more development in part 3 to really explore how she feels about it (I personally wouldn't mind more Dawn Brigade maps). But to me, it feels like the writers wanted to have the "friends are fighting friends for no apparent reason this is the true cost of war" moment (which is perfectly suited for Fire Emblem I'd argue), but they didn't or couldn't put as much work into it and so conjured up a blood pact to just... make it happen. And that's really sad to have in the Tellius games, which I would say have the second best narrative in the series, just below FE4.

[Jotari]

I have a rather radical way of writing around the blood pact. Remove Sothe. The goal is to get Daien and Crimea to fight again. This shouldn't really be much of a challenge. The countries already hate each other. But Sothe's presence and loyalty to Ike means Micaiah's resistance to fighting Ike is transferred. If Sothe isn't there, then none of the principle characters have much reason to resist the idea of aiding Begnion as an opportunity to get back at Crimea (Jill and Tauroneo and Zihark are still there, but, being minor characters, their voice doesn't matter as much).

In addition, make it so, while Begnion did take the bulk of the occupation, Crimea did retain control of a single province. The Daein province that connects to the great bridge. With the logic that it gives Crimea more control over the boarder in case of any future assault from Daein. Let this sovereignty of this province be a major issue for Part 2 Elincia and a rallying cry for the people of Daein. They get most of their country back from Begnion in Part 1, but the job isn't finished until Bridge County is returned. And also make the Begnion occupation a bit more nuanced. In addition to Jarod and Numidia, give us a third administrator who represents the Sanaki side of Begnion.

[Dark Holy Elf]

My thoughts basically mirror Florete's.

Blood pact is just coercion, the fantasy version of Lekain saying "we have planted a nuclear bomb under your capital, cooperate with us or else". And Micaiah is correct to trust that Pelleas wants what's best for Daein. I would also say she's pretty far from blind or unquestioning about it.

[Aedan7479]

I think one thing that people get hung up on is Micaiah is fighting for the wrong side while Ike is indisputably fighting for the right side. While that doesn't help the argument that Ike overshadows Micaiah in her own game, I don't think the game was ever supposed to be 'two sides fighting for what they consider just', which has become a bit overused, and not just in Fire Emblem. If I understand correctly, Micaiah's struggle is figuring our what's the right thing to do; she knows what's right, but can't figure out how to achieve peace. Until Ashura awakens and makes the choice easy.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Aedan7479 said:

I think one thing that people get hung up on is Micaiah is fighting for the wrong side while Ike is indisputably fighting for the right side. While that doesn't help the argument that Ike overshadows Micaiah in her own game, I don't think the game was ever supposed to be 'two sides fighting for what they consider just', which has become a bit overused, and not just in Fire Emblem. If I understand correctly, Micaiah's struggle is figuring our what's the right thing to do; she knows what's right, but can't figure out how to achieve peace. Until Ashura awakens and makes the choice easy.

To me it feels less like Ashera makes the choice easy, and more like Ashera just nullifies the entire previous plot before its resolved. And then to resolve it Part 4 is forced to bring back characters Lehran and Ashera should find repugnant for starting this whole mess and also have contrived scenarios like Izuka being captured by Bastian throughout all the crazyiness and then escaping only at the last second when the player meets them (and what about all those feral laguz, is Izuka outright reviving the dead, something everyone is shocked later to see Ashera do? Or did Izuka stumble upon a field of feral laguz that have been there the entire time and no one noticed and they were all powerful enough to avoid the petrification rays? As much fun as it is to fight more laguz and get a mountain of late game exp, it doesn't make a huge ammount of sense).

[Aedan7479]

47 minutes ago, Jotari said:

To me it feels less like Ashera makes the choice easy, and more like Ashera just nullifies the entire previous plot before its resolved. And then to resolve it Part 4 is forced to bring back characters Lehran and Ashera should find repugnant for starting this whole mess and also have contrived scenarios like Izuka being captured by Bastian throughout all the crazyiness and then escaping only at the last second when the player meets them (and what about all those feral laguz, is Izuka outright reviving the dead, something everyone is shocked later to see Ashera do? Or did Izuka stumble upon a field of feral laguz that have been there the entire time and no one noticed and they were all powerful enough to avoid the petrification rays? As much fun as it is to fight more laguz and get a mountain of late game exp, it doesn't make a huge ammount of sense).

Izuka summons them; his class is summoner, it still has a couple questions, but makes more sense than stumbling across them or resurrecting them. 

I reckon there should've been a Chapter in part 2 where Bastian captures Izuka. He could have Renning and Volke as party members, and it would've given a bit more importance to part 2.

Back to Micaiah, you're right, except it's not completely nullified. Unless I'm forgetting something, in part 4 the Blood pact could still be invoked, the difference is there's a whole lot less people it could kill, but then again, at that point, they needed everyone they could get, it's just not brought up, unless I'm mistaken. Actually, it's a shame Micaiah never talked with Elincia, considering she was put in a similar situation at the end of part 2, just it was one life opposed to an entire country.

[Jotari]

26 minutes ago, Aedan7479 said:

Izuka summons them; his class is summoner, it still has a couple questions, but makes more sense than stumbling across them or resurrecting them.

I'm not sure it does make any more sense. He summons them from where? Were they imprisoned in the Twisted Tower for years and the Crimeians just never noticed and then he teleports them there? These aren't monsters or animated skeletons like we see in Gaiden and Sacred Stones, these are actual intelligent creatures that have been driven mad. Like, wouldn't it also be really weird if summon would let him conjure a bunch of coked out skin heads out of nowhere to fight for him? Who are these people? Where did they come from?

Another part to this that could actually be brilliant continuity, or a minor break from continuity that I've never managed to check, is the number of red dragons. In Path of Radiance Ena says Ashnard has ten red dragons, but you only actually fight half that number in the game (the wiki says four, three in twisted tower and one in the finale,  but I had six in my head). Izuka's Chapter, Unforgivable Sin could provide an explanation for where the rest of the red dragoon platoon went to if it has the exact number of missing red dragoons. However, the wiki says Izuka's reinforcements are infinite. Which would mean he has infinite red dragoons when there's only ten, unless he really is resurrecting them. I think the wiki might be wrong though. Izuka's reinforcements in that chapter do stop eventually. I feel like if they literally are infinite then that chapter which is famous for its exp generosity would be abused even further.

26 minutes ago, Aedan7479 said:

Izuka summons them; his class is summoner, it still has a couple questions, but makes more sense than stumbling across them or resurrecting them. 

I reckon there should've been a Chapter in part 2 where Bastian captures Izuka. He could have Renning and Volke as party members, and it would've given a bit more importance to part 2.

Back to Micaiah, you're right, except it's not completely nullified. Unless I'm forgetting something, in part 4 the Blood pact could still be invoked, the difference is there's a whole lot less people it could kill, but then again, at that point, they needed everyone they could get, it's just not brought up, unless I'm mistaken. Actually, it's a shame Micaiah never talked with Elincia, considering she was put in a similar situation at the end of part 2, just it was one life opposed to an entire country.

Lekain should have invoked anyway.  If it took them as little as a week that's 28 people dead, probably the size of the entire Daein playable cast. If it took two weeks for them to reach the tower. If it took them two weeks then it's 105 dead enemies, which is probably a siezable number if there are offscreen Daein people still alive helping Mickey. If it takes them a month the number is 465 which should be a sizeable blow too. The fact that there are fewer people should actually make it more dangerous for Micaiah's forces. Unless the pact can still target the statues (which is something neither side should be able to confidently know). Lekain actually has nothing to lose by invoking the Blood Pact upon his revival, and nothing to gain by keeping it in reserve as Daein is no longer useful as a country in any way. Even Sephiran stopping him to protect Micaiah probably wouldn't work since Micaiah as the bearer of the mark would be protected (at least in the inital playthrough where Pelleas is dead)

Edited July 19, 2023 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

To me it feels less like Ashera makes the choice easy, and more like Ashera just nullifies the entire previous plot before its resolved. And then to resolve it Part 4 is forced to bring back characters Lehran and Ashera should find repugnant for starting this whole mess and also have contrived scenarios like Izuka being captured by Bastian throughout all the crazyiness and then escaping only at the last second when the player meets them (and what about all those feral laguz, is Izuka outright reviving the dead, something everyone is shocked later to see Ashera do? Or did Izuka stumble upon a field of feral laguz that have been there the entire time and no one noticed and they were all powerful enough to avoid the petrification rays? As much fun as it is to fight more laguz and get a mountain of late game exp, it doesn't make a huge ammount of sense).

An unlikely Deus Ex Machina, pft.

Well, Ashera is just using the Disciples of Order. As Yune said, if they do manage to kill the Heroes, Ashera will just petrify them again, their use finished. The Disciples, Lekain included, are simply deluded as they think they will inherit Tellius after Ashera has cleansed it or something like that. Ashera had to resort to that because her Judgement isn't strong enough yet to affect the Player Party.

I'd assume the Feral Ones simply counted as wild animals at that point, thus the Judgement outright ignored them. Or like how the Branded also escape unscathed, Ashera simply does not know a Feral One could exist, so she can't pass Judgement on them. Either explanation could work.

That said, it's a good point about where Izuka got them from. I can only assume they could be POW's he was allowed to experiment on. Maybe if it wasn't for the Civil War against the Senate, they might've planned to unleash the Feral Ones on the Alliance, so they went unused... until Izuka escaped from Bastian and company, and remembered he had lots of Feral Ones to use for protection... that's my theory/headcanon on the matter.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Another part to this that could actually be brilliant continuity, or a minor break from continuity that I've never managed to check, is the number of red dragons. In Path of Radiance Ena says Ashnard has ten red dragons, but you only actually fight half that number in the game (the wiki says four, three in twisted tower and one in the finale,  but I had six in my head). Izuka's Chapter, Unforgivable Sin could provide an explanation for where the rest of the red dragoon platoon went to if it has the exact number of missing red dragoons. However, the wiki says Izuka's reinforcements are infinite. Which would mean he has infinite red dragoons when there's only ten, unless he really is resurrecting them. I think the wiki might be wrong though. Izuka's reinforcements in that chapter do stop eventually. I feel like if they literally are infinite then that chapter which is famous for its exp generosity would be abused even further.

Which wiki you checked? Since it says three dragons for Repatriation as well, so there's indeed six.

Other places say it's only up to Turn 25 for the reinforcements, so yes, they do stop eventually. Unforgivable Sin has more than four Red Dragons, so... either way, it's not an indication that those ten Red Dragons should be the only ones that would be Feral... or that the ten were still alive when we play the game...

Edited July 19, 2023 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

An unlikely Deus Ex Machina, pft.

Well, Ashera is just using the Disciples of Order. As Yune said, if they do manage to kill the Heroes, Ashera will just petrify them again, their use finished. The Disciples, Lekain included, are simply deluded as they think they will inherit Tellius after Ashera has cleansed it or something like that. Ashera had to resort to that because her Judgement isn't strong enough yet to affect the Player Party.

I know how they justify the logic of her using them, but just on a script and thematic level for me it feels somewhat forced. Like, the stakes have been raised, we've moved passed this conflict, Valtome's antics and Numida's lack of character are designed for a different set piece, yet the villains still need to just show up to actually resolve it. It's like if Lyn's Granduncle just showed up working for Nergal on the Dread Isle at the end of the game becuase the story never got around to resolving her plot with him. It just feels like the transition could have been carried off with more focus and grace. Of course, I get why they had to do it. Radiant Dawn is already a pretty dang long game and the story had to get to Ashera at some point. Without dedicating a third game to the setting they pretty much had to have either a massive swerve or unnaturally fast pacing.

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I'd assume the Feral Ones simply counted as wild animals at that point, thus the Judgement outright ignored them. Or like how the Branded also escape unscathed, Ashera simply does not know a Feral One could exist, so she can't pass Judgement on them. Either explanation could work.

That said, it's a good point about where Izuka got them from. I can only assume they could be POW's he was allowed to experiment on. Maybe if it wasn't for the Civil War against the Senate, they might've planned to unleash the Feral Ones on the Alliance, so they went unused... until Izuka escaped from Bastian and company, and remembered he had lots of Feral Ones to use for protection... that's my theory/headcanon on the matter.

Which wiki you checked? Since it says three dragons for Repatriation as well, so there's indeed six.

Other places say it's only up to Turn 25 for the reinforcements, so yes, they do stop eventually. Unforgivable Sin has more than four Red Dragons, so... either way, it's not an indication that those ten Red Dragons should be the only ones that would be Feral... or that the ten were still alive when we play tRehe game...

Reviewing the script Ena actually says "No more than ten. Er...Probably no more than ten..." which is kind of a hilariously vague statement, especially from a character like Ena who is usually pretty selfassured even when dealing with pretty dire circumstances. I guess the writers want to have some leeway by making it a bit ambiguous, but then they ended up not even getting close to ten in Path of Radiance. So I guess as long as Izuka doesn't have infinite reinforcement he's good going up to twelve or thirteen total dragons. What's also fun is that there's an explanation as to where these dragons come from. I can't remember in which game it is, I think it's Deghensea who refers to them as the red dragon brigade who went with Rajaion to try and get Amaledha and Soren back.

[Acacia Sgt]

5 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I know how they justify the logic of her using them, but just on a script and thematic level for me it feels somewhat forced. Like, the stakes have been raised, we've moved passed this conflict, Valtome's antics and Numida's lack of character are designed for a different set piece, yet the villains still need to just show up to actually resolve it. It's like if Lyn's Granduncle just showed up working for Nergal on the Dread Isle at the end of the game becuase the story never got around to resolving her plot with him. It just feels like the transition could have been carried off with more focus and grace. Of course, I get why they had to do it. Radiant Dawn is already a pretty dang long game and the story had to get to Ashera at some point. Without dedicating a third game to the setting they pretty much had to have either a massive swerve or unnaturally fast pacing.

Now that brought it up, a Morph Lundgren would've been interesting, if only on paper...

Hm? What do you mean by not quite resolve?

Eh, we got Oliver out of this. Can't ask for a more beautiful outcome. Even if they hadn't been de-petrified, the Senate was a goner anyway. The people had already risen in revolt against them. Apostle or not, Sanaki is still the rightful Empress, so with the people at her side, she would easily have the Senate arrested if they hadn't been killed during Part 4. So no need for a third game for that.

5 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Reviewing the script Ena actually says "No more than ten. Er...Probably no more than ten..." which is kind of a hilariously vague statement, especially from a character like Ena who is usually pretty selfassured even when dealing with pretty dire circumstances. I guess the writers want to have some leeway by making it a bit ambiguous, but then they ended up not even getting close to ten in Path of Radiance. So I guess as long as Izuka doesn't have infinite reinforcement he's good going up to twelve or thirteen total dragons. What's also fun is that there's an explanation as to where these dragons come from. I can't remember in which game it is, I think it's Deghensea who refers to them as the red dragon brigade who went with Rajaion to try and get Amaledha and Soren back.

Hm, on what chapter was it? There's always checking Pegasusknight.com to see what the Japanese script said on the subject

[Jotari]

35 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Now that brought it up, a Morph Lundgren would've been interesting, if only on paper...

Hm? What do you mean by not quite resolve?

Eh, we got Oliver out of this. Can't ask for a more beautiful outcome. Even if they hadn't been de-petrified, the Senate was a goner anyway. The people had already risen in revolt against them. Apostle or not, Sanaki is still the rightful Empress, so with the people at her side, she would easily have the Senate arrested if they hadn't been killed during Part 4. So no need for a third game for that.

Hm, on what chapter was it? There's always checking Pegasusknight.com to see what the Japanese script said on the subject

My parallel isn't a morph Lundgren, but an actual living thinking Lundgren because Lyn just never got around to defeating. We're told that the Senate are about to collapse, but that's all offscreen and just done to show how Ike would have a clear path if not for the Micaiah. In truth they're still strong and they still have not been defeated by our heroes, either thematically or in direct confrontation. Why else bring them back at all? The Disciples of Order didn't have to be the people Lehran despised the most. They could have been all new characters, or not even humans, they could have been monsters of order created by Ashera like the evntual elementals we face. Or they could be heroes from Ashera's bygone age brought back with her to do her bidding. There are countless ways Ashera could have had mooks at her service, it didn't need to specifically be the senate. But they were brought back because they had yet to be confronted and defeated. Lekain existed in Part 4 purely to have that scene with Sanaki and Micaiah, by which point the consequences of the blood pact and Sanaki's ruling status are largely irrelevant in the fact of complete existential annihilation.

[Acacia Sgt]

9 minutes ago, Jotari said:

My parallel isn't a morph Lundgren, but an actual living thinking Lundgren because Lyn just never got around to defeating. We're told that the Senate are about to collapse, but that's all offscreen and just done to show how Ike would have a clear path if not for the Micaiah. In truth they're still strong and they still have not been defeated by our heroes, either thematically or in direct confrontation. Why else bring them back at all? The Disciples of Order didn't have to be the people Lehran despised the most. They could have been all new characters, or not even humans, they could have been monsters of order created by Ashera like the evntual elementals we face. Or they could be heroes from Ashera's bygone age brought back with her to do her bidding. There are countless ways Ashera could have had mooks at her service, it didn't need to specifically be the senate. But they were brought back because they had yet to be confronted and defeated. Lekain existed in Part 4 purely to have that scene with Sanaki and Micaiah, by which point the consequences of the blood pact and Sanaki's ruling status are largely irrelevant in the fact of complete existential annihilation.

Yeah, it's the video game angle. Make it so the player can participate in them getting their commeupance.

Eh, Lundgren is the final boss to defeat in Lyn Mode. What Lyn never got closure with was with annihilating the Taliver Bandits, as Wallace does it off-screen so she wouldn't have to. With Lundgren? She did got closure... as, gameplay aside, we can assume she's the one to kill him.

Edited July 19, 2023 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

6 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Yeah, it's the video game angle. Make it so the player can participate in them getting their commeupance.

Even if it were a book I don't think it be narratively satisfying to have their supposed defeat happen offscreen and then bring them back in an unrelated story arc. Though in a medium outside of a video game there would be much smaller chance of a writer actually doing that, as the person on person fight is more important in video games than other mediums.

6 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Eh, Lundgren is the final boss to defeat in Lyn Mode. What Lyn never got closure with was with annihilating the Taliver Bandits, as Wallace does it off-screen so she wouldn't have to. With Lundgren? She did got closure... as, gameplay aside, we can assume she's the one to kill him.

That's precisely my point. Leaving a villain undefeated in one section of the game only to do a huge plot swerve and have them in a new section just to be defeated because they weren't before is inelegant, for want of a better term.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

I love Izuka for his personality, but he just doesn't make a ton of sense outside of the confines of Part I. Izuka turns out to have been working for the Senate... why, exactly? What do the Senators offer him, that he wouldn't have gotten from being the left hand of the King of Daein? Do the Senators know that Izuka is their "man on the inside", and if so, does that factor into Numida giving up on the occupation? Did Sephiran find out that Izuka was working with the Senate? Hell, did he orchestrate it - and if so, how exactly? Was Izuka brought back by Ashera, or was he simply powerful enough to bypass the initial petrification? Is he generating these Feral Ones from thin air, or bringing them in from elsewhere? If the former, how long has he had this obscene power? If the latter, how did he go about finding, de-petrifying, and drugging all these laguz?

Gods, these writers could test the patience of a stone. Anyway, yeah blood pacts bad. But as others have pointed out, Pelleas is a bit of a naive coward, but he's not straight up evil like Izuka is. It's not out of character for Micaiah to believe in Pelleas (at least, that his heart is in the right place), despite condemning and mistrusting Izuka. As for the Blood Pacts, yeah they're bad writing. I made my own thread last year about how Ashnard's decision to use one did not, in my opinion, jive with his supposed "rule by strength" philosophy. To a man who wanted the powerful to dominate the weak, a dark curse that afflicted strong and weak alike, slaughtering lions whilst leaving lambs to play, would be perverse and wholly undesirable. But it's not the only bit of bad writing, and it's just one aspect of how things come unraveling. Even writing around the blood pact wouldn't make for an airtight story.

[Acacia Sgt]

26 minutes ago, Jotari said:

That's precisely my point. Leaving a villain undefeated in one section of the game only to do a huge plot swerve and have them in a new section just to be defeated because they weren't before is inelegant, for want of a better term.

I mean, it's mainly about execution. Perhaps RD didn't do it well, but that doesn't demerit the idea in itself.

[Jotari]

59 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I love Izuka for his personality, but he just doesn't make a ton of sense outside of the confines of Part I. Izuka turns out to have been working for the Senate... why, exactly? What do the Senators offer him, that he wouldn't have gotten from being the left hand of the King of Daein? Do the Senators know that Izuka is their "man on the inside", and if so, does that factor into Numida giving up on the occupation? Did Sephiran find out that Izuka was working with the Senate? Hell, did he orchestrate it - and if so, how exactly? Was Izuka brought back by Ashera, or was he simply powerful enough to bypass the initial petrification? Is he generating these Feral Ones from thin air, or bringing them in from elsewhere? If the former, how long has he had this obscene power? If the latter, how did he go about finding, de-petrifying, and drugging all these laguz?

You're right, for as oddly likebale as he is as a character, he doesn't make a tonne of sense. Which is surprising, as they must have at least some long term plans for who he is because he shows up in Path of Radiance for absolutely no reason but to be a cameo for Radiant Dawn. Like, think about how odd his Path of Radiance appearance is without the context of the sequel. He's just there to get tricked by Naesala and then he just bails, never to be seen again, while some other random character of even less note serves as the penultimate chapter boss.  Not that I'm complaining, I think it's really cool that he (and Zelgius and the Senators etc) show up in Path of Radiance, I just wonder what they were actually thinking with him when they were making the first game. Maybe they only had his plot line planned out for Part 1, where it makes perfect sense. In Path of Radiance he works for Daein, so at the start of Radiant Dawn he works for Daein. Man I'd read a full book about how much of the framework for Radiant Dawn had been constructed at the close of Path of Radiance's development.

[Sunwoo]

If I recall correctly (which I might not because I haven't looked at RD's script in a very long time), I believe Izuka turned against Pelleas after the Muarim incident. I think he was quite salty that Pelleas valued the life of a laguz over his "research" or something.  As for why he'd start working for the Senate ... I have no idea if that was ever stated outright in the story, but my best assumption would be that the Senate agreed to let him experiment on all the laguz he wanted in exchange for working with them.

The Blood Pact is a pretty low point in RD's story, but I've also had many discussions about RD in general back in the day, so I'm not gonna repeat myself.

[Jotari]

9 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

If I recall correctly (which I might not because I haven't looked at RD's script in a very long time), I believe Izuka turned against Pelleas after the Muarim incident. I think he was quite salty that Pelleas valued the life of a laguz over his "research" or something.  As for why he'd start working for the Senate ... I have no idea if that was ever stated outright in the story, but my best assumption would be that the Senate agreed to let him experiment on all the laguz he wanted in exchange for working with them.

The Blood Pact is a pretty low point in RD's story, but I've also had many discussions about RD in general back in the day, so I'm not gonna repeat myself.

That' a good interpretation, and it makes Muraim's feral scene a lot more important, as well as Izuka something of a deeper character, but I don't think it's actually backed up by the script (course we also only got the truncated script in the west). I at least, only ever got the impression that he was a shitbag working for the villains the entire time. Sephiran also does say it was Izuka who told him of Pelleas and that Izuka was executing his plan. Though with Sephiran it's hard to know if he was directly ordering a lot of people or just indirectly manipulating them since he knew what they'd do.

Edited July 19, 2023 by Jotari

[Sunwoo]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

That' a good interpretation, and it makes Muraim's feral scene a lot more important, as well as Izuka something of a deeper character, but I don't think it's actually backed up by the script (course we also only got the truncated script in the west). I at least, only ever got the impression that he was a shitbag working for the villains the entire time. Sephiran also does say it was Izuka who told him of Pelleas and that Izuka was executing his plan. Though with Sephiran it's hard to know if he was directly ordering a lot of people or just indirectly manipulating them since he knew what they'd do.

I pulled up Part 4's boss conversations on the main site, and here is Izuka and Pelleas's conversation.

Pelleas: Izuka!
Izuka: Ah, my dear prince Pelleas! Excuse me, King Pelleas! I’d assumed that you had been turned to stone. How nice to see you again! But I am saddened to see that you would betray me and fight alongside these shortsighted fools! I found you and set you on the path to royalty! I served you well, did I not?
Pelleas: I know that you’ve been working for the senate, Izuka.
Izuka: So you found out. Very well. At least I don’t need to pretend anymore. It isn’t like you will spare my life, anyway.
Pelleas: With most of Daein turned to stone, the blood pact can no longer harm anyone. But that doesn’t change the fact that you tricked me into risking the life of every citizen of my kingdom. Why would you betray me, Izuka? Were you ever loyal to Daein?
Izuka: Betrayal? What of your betrayal of me? I remember well how you valued one worthless laguz life over mine! It was your betrayal that forced me to abandon my work! You were supposed to be my puppet, a weakling boy-king that I could control, giving me free reign!

Apologies about the formatting. There's also a bit more to this, but it wasn't really relevant so I didn't post it. Link to full convo: https://serenesforest.net/radiant-dawn/scripts/game-script/miscellaneous/boss-conversations/part-4/

[Jotari]

30 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

I pulled up Part 4's boss conversations on the main site, and here is Izuka and Pelleas's conversation.

 

 

Apologies about the formatting. There's also a bit more to this, but it wasn't really relevant so I didn't post it. Link to full convo: https://serenesforest.net/radiant-dawn/scripts/game-script/miscellaneous/boss-conversations/part-4/

Hmm. It doesn't directly say that's what turned him to the senate. It feels, at least, to me, that he's lashing out at Pelleas. In fact, the note about pretending makes it sound like the whole time. If we look at the actual order of events, the Muraim incident happens in Chapter 8. The very next chapter is One Survives, when Daein has, effectively, won the war. It doesn't actually give Izuka a whole lot of time to actually get in contact with the senate and do much pretending in front of Pelleas. It would have to basically all be organized when Lekain shows up in person.