Radiant Dawn's Story Was Going So Well... And Then Blood Pact *Minor Spoilers*

[Sunwoo]

23 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Hmm. It doesn't directly say that's what turned him to the senate. It feels, at least, to me, that he's lashing out at Pelleas. In fact, the note about pretending makes it sound like the whole time. If we look at the actual order of events, the Muraim incident happens in Chapter 8. The very next chapter is One Survives, when Daein has, effectively, won the war. It doesn't actually give Izuka a whole lot of time to actually get in contact with the senate and do much pretending in front of Pelleas. It would have to basically all be organized when Lekain shows up in person.

It's honestly confusing just what the extent of Izuka's participation with ~outside forces~ is. Was he always in cahoots with the Begnion Senate? Or did he plan independently to put Pelleas on the throne so he could have a weak king he could control, without influence from the Senate or Sephiran? What is Sephiran's involvement in this, if any?

Either the writers didn't give it much thought because Izuka's just a slimeball who the players were going to kill at the end of the game anyway, or they did and forgot to actually mention it in the story.

[Jotari]

32 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

It's honestly confusing just what the extent of Izuka's participation with ~outside forces~ is. Was he always in cahoots with the Begnion Senate? Or did he plan independently to put Pelleas on the throne so he could have a weak king he could control, without influence from the Senate or Sephiran? What is Sephiran's involvement in this, if any?

Either the writers didn't give it much thought because Izuka's just a slimeball who the players were going to kill at the end of the game anyway, or they did and forgot to actually mention it in the story.

That's the rub, alright. I prefer the idea of him changing his allegiance partway through due to how things were turning out for him, but I don't think that's really what the writers had specifically in mind. He was simply just the bad guy, so of course he was bad.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

6 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

It's honestly confusing just what the extent of Izuka's participation with ~outside forces~ is. Was he always in cahoots with the Begnion Senate? Or did he plan independently to put Pelleas on the throne so he could have a weak king he could control, without influence from the Senate or Sephiran? What is Sephiran's involvement in this, if any?

It's very tricky, because according to the "Chessmaster Sephiran" theory, Sephiran's goal was to get all the nations of Tellius to go to war with each other. For that to happen, he presumably needed to bring Daein back into existence, and then get it to participate in the war that followed. But despite Izuka's central role in both of these things happening, we have no clue whether he ever met with Sephiran. These could've just been fortuitous events that he had no personal hand in.

As for "Izuka decided to side with the Senate after Pelleas rebuked him for his Feral Ones experimentation", it's the most plausible explanation, I guess. Still, knowing Pelleas, if Izuka had asked him for a lab to do "secret military experiments", he probably would have consented. Even so, he may have felt so insulted that he didn't act totally rationally. 

Of course, then this means that Izuka wasn't working with the Senate in his initial plans. Elevating Pelleas, whom he knows to be base-born, can still be considered in his best interests. He would have "dirt" on the new King, whom he can then bend further to his will, lest he "reveal" him to the Daein populace. Still, he never tries to use this blackmail in-narrative, so it's unclear how exactly it would play out.

As for what @Jotari said about Izuka being a one-off nobody in Path of Radiance, it's certainly possible that they had sequel plans for him. Or, he might have been a cameo reference to Daisuke Izuka, an artist for the series, that wasn't intended to go anywhere. 

[Dark Holy Elf]

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Or, he might have been a cameo reference to Daisuke Izuka, an artist for the series, that wasn't intended to go anywhere. 

I'm immensely skeptical. If he was meant to be just a cameo for a staff member, I highly doubt they'd have gone out of their way to make him come across as so repugnantly evil in such a short amount of time, to the point where there's a scene dedicated to how disgusted the player characters are when they discover his lab. IMO he was clearly there as a sequel hook. When RD was announced (which keep in mind, was just a year after PoR's release date, i.e. the game had to have been in development almost immediately after PoR), Izuka was one of the first characters shown iirc.

I rather like the theory that Izuka only truly went over to the senate after Pelleas failed to appreciate his genius; it's 100% in line with Izuka's characterization. Certainly I don't think there's any indication that Numida considered him a potential asset during Numida's part 1 scenes (certainly the success of Pelleas and Izuka during Part 1 is devastating to Numida's bottom line of exploiting the place for his own benefit), so if he had any contact with Begnion by that point it would have to be something Numida doesn't know about (granted, it's entirely possible Sephiran was already pulling strings, or that Lekain was thinking ahead in his blood pact plan).

[Etrurian emperor]

16 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I love Izuka for his personality, but he just doesn't make a ton of sense outside of the confines of Part I. Izuka turns out to have been working for the Senate... why, exactly? What do the Senators offer him, that he wouldn't have gotten from being the left hand of the King of Daein? Do the Senators know that Izuka is their "man on the inside", and if so, does that factor into Numida giving up on the occupation? Did Sephiran find out that Izuka was working with the Senate? Hell, did he orchestrate it

Its never outright stated but the reason would be simple to guess. The Senators are rotten enough to offer Izuka a lifetime supply of Laguz slaves to butcher and the immunity from all the crimes that come with it. Peleas likely wouldn't have done either of those things for Izuka even as his puppet. 

That said its still a little silly when you ask the question ''why bother?''. Why engineer a revolution to get a puppet on Daein's throne....when the senate already controlled Daien without any of that. Though its also possible that the Senators bribed Izuka only after the revolt rather than before it.

I'll always have a soft spot for Izuka for successfully walking a very delicate line. He's actually a lot like failure villains such as Iago, Excellus or Narshen. Clownish, very over the top and inept. But despite all these traits Izuka still manages to come off as monstrous, highly effective in his own field and capable of doing extreme damage. For all their slaughtering Iago and those like him can be hard to take seriously, but despite being a complete loon the plot always manages to portray Izuka seriously when the topic shifts to his crimes.

Edited July 19, 2023 by Etrurian emperor

[Jotari]

9 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

But despite Izuka's central role in both of these things happening, we have no clue whether he ever met with Sephiran.

The two almost certainly did meet, as this is what Sephiran says with his battle quote with Pelleas.

Pelleas: If you're the one who's been pulling the strings behind all this, please tell me... Who... Who am I?
Sephiran: ...I don't know. All I know is that you are a powerful practitioner of magic... I know that you were an orphan born and raised in Daein. But that is all Izuka ever told me.

Course, that still doesn't really explain their relationship. Izuka either could have been Sephiran's man the entire time, going as far back as Path of Radiance, or, Izuka could have told him this information when Sephiran arrived in Daein at the end of Part 1 and that's the only time they ever spoke to each other. The following lines do certainly suggest that Sephiran arranged the resurrection of Daein though.

7 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I'm immensely skeptical. If he was meant to be just a cameo for a staff member, I highly doubt they'd have gone out of their way to make him come across as so repugnantly evil in such a short amount of time, to the point where there's a scene dedicated to how disgusted the player characters are when they discover his lab. IMO he was clearly there as a sequel hook. When RD was announced (which keep in mind, was just a year after PoR's release date, i.e. the game had to have been in development almost immediately after PoR), Izuka was one of the first characters shown iirc.

And if he were meant to be a cameo, that wouldn't explain why they let him live and escape to cause trouble another day. He very easily could have been the boss of that chapter, it'd make more sense for the boss to be the actual guy in charge. But instead the guy in charge and responsible for the repugnant crimes just runs away and isn't seen again for the remainder of that guy, while it's some other random second in command who fights till the end. Though, funnily enough, they do repeat this in Radiant Dawn with Septimus who flees leaving his second in command in charge early in Part 3, but then you do fight him later in Part 3 as another minor chapter boss. And his cowardice is comedy gold.

7 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I rather like the theory that Izuka only truly went over to the senate after Pelleas failed to appreciate his genius; it's 100% in line with Izuka's characterization. Certainly I don't think there's any indication that Numida considered him a potential asset during Numida's part 1 scenes (certainly the success of Pelleas and Izuka during Part 1 is devastating to Numida's bottom line of exploiting the place for his own benefit), so if he had any contact with Begnion by that point it would have to be something Numida doesn't know about (granted, it's entirely possible Sephiran was already pulling strings, or that Lekain was thinking ahead in his blood pact plan).

The other element would be that if Izuka wasn't in league with the senate from the start, then how quickly was the Blood Pact plan arranged. Because without corrupt lawyer Izuka saying "yeah, this is fine, just sign it", giving Pelleas the blood pact is a horrendously stupid idea that could backfire extremely easily. "Here's our treaty new king, just some formal stuff." "Yes, I see. Eh, why does this say Daein must do anything Begnion wishes or suffer complete destruction?" "Just standard small print, don't worry about it." "Wait, it's not even anything Begnion wishes, it's specifically chief Senator Lekain!" "Oh yes, all our contracts are like that. Just sign here."

Course...that seems to be exactly how things went down with the previous Daein King (I was about to say Ashnard's father, but he wasn't, was he? Ashnard was distantly related to the crown. Oh wait, but he says he killed his father to Bryce, didn't he? So was he like a 12th son or something?).

Edited July 20, 2023 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

12 minutes ago, Jotari said:

The two almost certainly did meet, as this is what Sephiran says with his battle quote with Pelleas.

Pelleas: If you're the one who's been pulling the strings behind all this, please tell me... Who... Who am I?
Sephiran: ...I don't know. All I know is that you are a powerful practitioner of magic... I know that you were an orphan born and raised in Daein. But that is all Izuka ever told me.

Course, that still doesn't really explain their relationship. Izuka either could have been Sephiran's man the entire time, going as far back as Path of Radiance, or, Izuka could have told him this information when Sephiran arrived in Daein at the end of Part 1 and that's the only time they ever spoke to each other. The following lines do certainly suggest that Sephiran arranged the resurrection of Daein though.

The other element would be that if Izuka wasn't in league with the senate from the start, then how quickly was the Blood Pact plan arranged. Because without corrupt lawyer Izuka saying "yeah, this is fine, just sign it", giving Pelleas the blood pact is a horrendously stupid idea that could backfire extremely easily. "Here's our treaty new king, just some formal stuff." "Yes, I see. Eh, why does this say Daein must do anything Begnion wishes or suffer complete destruction?" "Just standard small print, don't worry about it." "Wait, it's not even anything Begnion wishes, it's specifically chief Senator Lekain!" "Oh yes, all our contracts are like that. Just sign here."

Course...that seems to be exactly how things went down with the previous Daein King (I was about to say Ashnard's father, but he wasn't, was he? Ashnard was distantly related to the crown. Oh wait, but he says he killed his father to Bryce, didn't he? So was he like a 12th son or something?).

It's even worse when you consider the Blood Pact must be signed with blood (hence the name), as apparently not even that made Pelleas actually reconsider it might be too much for a treaty.

I could think it doesn't take that long to think it up. Lekain saw their grip on Daein was slipping, so he resorted to the Blood Pact to ensure they'd still have it. The Blood Pact was 'disguised' as the reparations treaty, so there was time to draft it up and present it to Pelleas. Since that'd be a sure-fire way to drag Daein back into conflict to have the continent-wide war, Sephiran let it happen and likely had it all arranged it in advance. I doubt he wouldn't know Lekain would resort to the Blood Pact.

[Aedan7479]

One thing of note, no matter who Bengion sent to govern Daein, there's was next to no chance that the people would support them (unless it wad someone exceptional like Zelgius), but a mysterious heir that liberates them from their oppressors, they'd have the peoples full support. That might have been the senators thinking, or at least Leakin's Numida could've been another pawns. Daein would be easier to manipulate with a leader the people love.

Something else I've been thinking about, every senator was chosen by the Goddess through the apostle, right? That's something I would've liked to learn more about, especially given the 'recent' choices.

[Jotari]

34 minutes ago, Aedan7479 said:

One thing of note, no matter who Bengion sent to govern Daein, there's was next to no chance that the people would support them (unless it wad someone exceptional like Zelgius), but a mysterious heir that liberates them from their oppressors, they'd have the peoples full support. That might have been the senators thinking, or at least Leakin's Numida could've been another pawns. Daein would be easier to manipulate with a leader the people love.

Something else I've been thinking about, every senator was chosen by the Goddess through the apostle, right? That's something I would've liked to learn more about, especially given the 'recent' choices.

Is that something they say? I assumed they were hereditary positions. Since they don't seem to be purely political, there are actual provinces attached to them. Then again, Sephiran managed to walk out of nowhere and become a senator, prime minister even, just because he was a good baby sitter and looked pretty.

[ping]

About the Blood Pact itself, I can just quote myself from about two years ago:

On 9/22/2021 at 11:07 PM, gnip said:

I think what bothers me the most about the Blood Pacts is that they are so insanely powerful and very abstract at the same time. They are all created off-screen, with no possible struggle to prevent them to be made in the first place, and while "people die" certainly is a very real impact, the means aren't elaborated on at all. The Bloodpact can identify who is a Daein / Kilvas citizen because magic. It can then specifically target those citizens through magic. It then kills them because magic. It kills a certain, ever-increasing amount of people, because magic. There is nothing tangible causing the deaths, it's just magic.

As far as apocalyptic spells go in JRPGs, it's not that egregious in terms of power, but when Pretty Evil Guy is trying to summon a ginormous meteor to crash into the planet, that's at least an effect that you can see and that "makes sense", in a way. The spell has a visible, concrete effect, and it's reasonable to assume that the effect will kill all humans.

So as far as I'm concerned, I wish that the Magic Ex Machina that forces Daein to join Begnion's side would have more presence, so to speak. Maybe make it more personal - a death curse put on Micaiah personally (which could be plausible if the senators had any personal items of her before she vanished from Begnion, for example) and Pelleas doesn't have the balls to either condemn Micaiah or tell her what's up. If that's not big enough, give Begnion access to some sort of magic nuke that's hidden in Daein's capital, and Miccy+Co have to be secretive until they find a way to block the trigger at least temporarily. But not some super-powerful conjuration where the only logic and causality seems to be "it's magic LOL".

I should've written "Evil Pretty Guy", to clarify that I didn't mean "pretty" as a synonym for "very", but otherwise, I still agree with Past Me.

As far as Miccy is concerned, I'm more sympathetic about her obeying Pelleas's orders than I used to be. If I recall, Izuka insinuates in pt. 1 that Micaiah is building herself up as The Hero because she's planning to challenge Pelleas's claim to the throne down the line. And it's worth noting that her rescue mission in the swamp looks very much like this from the outside - Micaiah ignores Izuka and Pelleas to do what she thinks is right, is successful, and is praised by the Daein troops as a result. Given that Miccy doesn't actually have any aspirations of grandeur, I find it understandable that she doesn't want to continuously challenge Pelleas's authority, even though I don't think the game spells it out that way.

What still bothers me, however, that Micaiah doesn't have an opportunity to get out of that mindset herself. It needs Sothe to do the Sothe thing (protect Micaiah. That's his only thing in RD) while Micaiah herself is incapacitated in order to make Pelleas spill the beans, and that's kinda the end of Micaiah's arc. Yes, I know, she becomes queen in the end (which is both a logical conclusion and very ironic), but as far as I remember, she... doesn't really do anything anymore until Ashera is defeated, apart from serving as Yune's mouth piece. It's not very satisfying when a main character's arc is concluded with "and then she was rescued by her love interest, the end". *coughcelicacough*

[Etrurian emperor]

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

Is that something they say? I assumed they were hereditary positions. Since they don't seem to be purely political, there are actual provinces attached to them. Then again, Sephiran managed to walk out of nowhere and become a senator, prime minister even, just because he was a good baby sitter and looked pretty.

Yeah that's really weird. The status obsessed Senate inviting some random guy into their ranks. Even Sephiran's forged birth certificate of being descended from sages doesn't really explain it since as Valtome and Lekain indicates the senators look down on even royalty. Sephiran already being a senator before being a babysitter makes it weirder since it means Sephiran got the job even before Lekain realized he could be useful. After all Lekain stating they handed the babysitting to their ''youngest senator'' indicates Sephiran was already in the senate at the time.

And its not like the Senate wouldn't go looking into the birth certificate the moment they realized Sephiran was actually kinda annoying. So even if the lie fooled the Senate for a time its still weird they didn't expose it later on.

[Jotari]

4 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Yeah that's really weird. The status obsessed Senate inviting some random guy into their ranks. Even Sephiran's forged birth certificate of being descended from sages doesn't really explain it since as Valtome and Lekain indicates the senators look down on even royalty. Sephiran already being a senator before being a babysitter makes it weirder since it means Sephiran got the job even before Lekain realized he could be useful. After all Lekain stating they handed the babysitting to their ''youngest senator'' indicates Sephiran was already in the senate at the time.

And its not like the Senate wouldn't go looking into the birth certificate the moment they realized Sephiran was actually kinda annoying. So even if the lie fooled the Senate for a time its still weird they didn't expose it later on.

Sephiran becoming a senator at the time also means they can't be assigned directly by the Apostle (at least all the time), as there was no Apostle at the time.

[Aedan7479]

Does anyone know if the extended script says anything on the senators? I know there’s a bit extra on the Blood pact.

Also, is the title of senator hereditary, or just the title of Duke? Similar to the difference between the titles of 'apostle' and 'empress' (if you don't know what I'm referring to, check Sigrun and Tanith's boss conversations with Leakin). After all, all the Senators (barring Sephrain) look pretty old, it wouldn't be surprising if Sephrain was the first new Senator after Sanaki's grandmother died.

[Jotari]

9 minutes ago, Aedan7479 said:

Does anyone know if the extended script says anything on the senators? I know there’s a bit extra on the Blood pact.

Also, is the title of senator hereditary, or just the title of Duke? Similar to the difference between the titles of 'apostle' and 'empress' (if you don't know what I'm referring to, check Sigrun and Tanith's boss conversations with Leakin). After all, all the Senators (barring Sephrain) look pretty old, it wouldn't be surprising if Sephrain was the first new Senator after Sanaki's grandmother died.

It is entirely possible that the position of duke and senator are separate, but virtually simultaneous. But the issue there is that Sephrain is a duke...and we know that's not because he was born to Begnion nobility. So he must have been given the title of duke and the lands associated with it by becoming a Senator...unless he killed some young heir and started impersonating him. Which...wouldn't be outside the realms of his morality at that point.

(side note, Sephiran's province has been translated in three different ways despite there only being two games. He's been Duke of Persis, Belysis and Perseus).

Edited July 21, 2023 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

1 hour ago, Aedan7479 said:

Does anyone know if the extended script says anything on the senators? I know there’s a bit extra on the Blood pact.

Also, is the title of senator hereditary, or just the title of Duke? Similar to the difference between the titles of 'apostle' and 'empress' (if you don't know what I'm referring to, check Sigrun and Tanith's boss conversations with Leakin). After all, all the Senators (barring Sephrain) look pretty old, it wouldn't be surprising if Sephrain was the first new Senator after Sanaki's grandmother died.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

It is entirely possible that the position of duke and senator are separate, but virtually simultaneous. But the issue there is that Sephrain is a duke...and we know that's not because he was born to Begnion nobility. So he must have been given the title of duke and the lands associated with it by becoming a Senator...unless he killed some young heir and started impersonating him. Which...wouldn't be outside the realms of his morality at that point.

(side note, Sephiran's province has been translated in three different ways despite there only being two games. He's been Duke of Persis, Belysis and Perseus).

Well, Sigrun has to say about him:

Quote

Of course not. Duke Persis comes from a family of great mages.

However, the Japanese script:

魔道の大家たるペルシス公
セフェラン様に
皇帝一の将ゼルギウス殿……

Seems to say he's just a great mage, nothing about a family. Unless DeepL translated it wrong.

 

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Well, Sigrun has to say about him:

However, the Japanese script:

魔道の大家たるペルシス公
セフェラン様に
皇帝一の将ゼルギウス殿……

Seems to say he's just a great mage, nothing about a family. Unless DeepL translated it wrong.

 

Yeah, the Japanese is saying the same. 家 means family. I guess that confirms it, with Sephiran having a family history...he really did kill the real Sephiran and is impersonating an actual person. Poor sod original Sephiran getting no justice or sympathy from the narrative.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

How it started: Blood pacts are bad!

How it's going: so Lehran body-snatched the original Sephiran, apparently.

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

(side note, Sephiran's province has been translated in three different ways despite there only being two games. He's been Duke of Persis, Belysis and Perseus).

Screw it, he deserves a promotion. Sephiran is now Prince of Persia.

24 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Yeah, the Japanese is saying the same. 家 means family. I guess that confirms it, with Sephiran having a family history...he really did kill the real Sephiran and is impersonating an actual person. Poor sod original Sephiran getting no justice or sympathy from the narrative.

Well, we can headcanon proto-Sephiran any way we want. Maybe he was just as morally depraved as the other Senators.

14 hours ago, gnip said:

I think what bothers me the most about the Blood Pacts is that they are so insanely powerful and very abstract at the same time. They are all created off-screen, with no possible struggle to prevent them to be made in the first place, and while "people die" certainly is a very real impact, the means aren't elaborated on at all. The Bloodpact can identify who is a Daein / Kilvas citizen because magic. It can then specifically target those citizens through magic. It then kills them because magic. It kills a certain, ever-increasing amount of people, because magic. There is nothing tangible causing the deaths, it's just magic.

All good points. Come to think of it, we never see the Blood Pact in action. The ones held against Naesala and Pelleas are never "activated", and we're only told of one being used against a past King (also of Kilvas, perhaps?). Of course, RD also tells us that a Blood Pact was used to depopulate Daein, and clear Ashnard's route to the throne. This is a retcon from the previous game's plague, so... it's not as though it couldn't have actually been a plague, plus a couple well-timed "hits" by Ashnard.

New crack theory: the Blood Pact doesn't actually do anything. It's just an urban legend that's used to pressure its target into compliance. Only actual effect is the neato tattoo that comes with it.

[Acacia Sgt]

3 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

and we're only told of one being used against a past King (also of Kilvas, perhaps?).

It's the same one. We see the victims have wings. Also, that's how Naesala got the throne, as the previous King (signer of the Blood Pact) committed suicide.

[Jotari]

20 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

How it started: Blood pacts are bad!

How it's going: so Lehran body-snatched the original Sephiran, apparently.

Screw it, he deserves a promotion. Sephiran is now Prince of Persia.

Well, we can headcanon proto-Sephiran any way we want. Maybe he was just as morally depraved as the other Senators.

It's also possibly he just hypnotized the Parents of Persia or something to make them think they had a son his age. Though if birth records are a thing, a kill and replace is a much more secure form of identity fraud.

20 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

All good points. Come to think of it, we never see the Blood Pact in action. The ones held against Naesala and Pelleas are never "activated", and we're only told of one being used against a past King (also of Kilvas, perhaps?). Of course, RD also tells us that a Blood Pact was used to depopulate Daein, and clear Ashnard's route to the throne. This is a retcon from the previous game's plague, so... it's not as though it couldn't have actually been a plague, plus a couple well-timed "hits" by Ashnard.

New crack theory: the Blood Pact doesn't actually do anything. It's just an urban legend that's used to pressure its target into compliance. Only actual effect is the neato tattoo that comes with it.

That is hilariously likely. The plague hit Begnion before Daein, if I remember Thanith's line correctly. So how did all those people die otherwise? Was there both a plague and a blood pact ravaging Daein at the same time? Or were all those deaths in Begnion people of Daein blood coincidentally dying. I'm also kind of curious of the numbers. Tellius doesn't give us exact numbers often (nor should they), but if the plague hitting Begnion was the Blood Pact, somehow, and it was in effect for a full year, that's over sixty thousand deaths. Which is a pretty huge number of dead for a premodern society. Though of course we don't know how big Begnion and Daein are either (something I have been meaning to calculate using the ship travel times for quite a while now).

[Acacia Sgt]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

That is hilariously likely. The plague hit Begnion before Daein, if I remember Thanith's line correctly. So how did all those people die otherwise? Was there both a plague and a blood pact ravaging Daein at the same time? Or were all those deaths in Begnion people of Daein blood coincidentally dying. I'm also kind of curious of the numbers. Tellius doesn't give us exact numbers often (nor should they), but if the plague hitting Begnion was the Blood Pact, somehow, and it was in effect for a full year, that's over sixty thousand deaths. Which is a pretty huge number of dead for a premodern society. Though of course we don't know how big Begnion and Daein are either (something I have been meaning to calculate using the ship travel times for quite a while now).

Well, here's what she says:

Two years before, it struck Begnion, and
the entire population of Serenes was nearly obliterated.

But before that she says:

Ashnard's coronation, let me see... Yes, it was eighteen years ago.

Which means the plague that killed the "entire population of Serenes" happened 20 years ago. You know, the year Misaha was killed and the people massacred the Herons. By "population of Serenes" are they referring to humans living near the forest or... the Herons?

Japanese script has this:

……アシュナードが即位したのは、確か…１８年前のはずだ。デイン王都ネヴァサ周辺でひどい流行り病があって…人が大勢死んだ翌年だったと記憶している。テリウス大陸史においても、戦以外で、あれほど多く立て続けにベオクやラグズが死んだのは……創始の大洪水以来だったろうな。２０年前のベグニオンでは、セリノス王国の民がほぼ失われ…１９年前のデインでは、王族を含め１０００に届く数のベオクが死んだと言うのだからな。

Unless, again, DeepL is translating it wonky, she seems instead to bring up the loss of the Heron population as an example of non-war mass-death scenarios, and the plague didn't actually struck Begnion, just Daein. So it might be that it's only the English script the one saying the plague also hit Begnion, but not the Japanese one. If true, sounds like the translators messed up. Since Tanith only brings up the death of the Herons, but without saying why, and then afterwards talks about the deaths in Daein; all this after the topic of the plague was brought up.

Edited July 21, 2023 by Acacia Sgt

[Jotari]

9 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Well, here's what she says:

Two years before, it struck Begnion, and
the entire population of Serenes was nearly obliterated.

But before that she says:

Ashnard's coronation, let me see... Yes, it was eighteen years ago.

Which means the plague that killed the "entire population of Serenes" happened 20 years ago. You know, the year Misaha was killed and the people massacred the Herons. By "population of Serenes" are they referring to humans living near the forest or... the Herons?

Japanese script has this:

……アシュナードが即位したのは、確か…１８年前のはずだ。デイン王都ネヴァサ周辺でひどい流行り病があって…人が大勢死んだ翌年だったと記憶している。テリウス大陸史においても、戦以外で、あれほど多く立て続けにベオクやラグズが死んだのは……創始の大洪水以来だったろうな。２０年前のベグニオンでは、セリノス王国の民がほぼ失われ…１９年前のデインでは、王族を含め１０００に届く数のベオクが死んだと言うのだからな。

Unless, again, DeepL is translating it wonky, she seems instead to bring up the loss of the Heron population as an example of non-war mass-death scenarios, and the plague didn't actually struck Begnion, just Daein. So it might be that it's only the English script the one saying the plague also hit Begnion, but not the Japanese one. If true, sounds like the translators messed up. Since Tanith only brings up the death of the Herons, but without saying why, and then afterwards talks about the deaths in Daein; all this after the topic of the plague was brought up.

That does seem to be a needlessly inaccurate translation. Like, the game goes on to explain exactly why the Herons died only a few chapters later, so it was silly to mistakenly connect it to the plague. I also notice in that Japanese text the specific number of (nearly) 1,000 is given...which seems like an inordinately small number for the Blood Pact to actually kill and be considered a plague. But due to the way the blood pact works it actually gives us a precise indication of how long it was in use for. 1,000 deaths should be approximately 45 days. Or a month and a half. And on reviewing the script, Ameldha actually reasserts this number in Radiant Dawn, though she says over a thousand instead of nearly.

And on looking more, on the Izuka situation, Lekain says that Izuka "found the perfect king to execute the senate's will", which sounds a lot like Izuka was in bed with them from the start.

And just for more number goodness, Lekain gives info on the number of days the kingdom we assume to be Kilvas. The people noticed the Blood Pact affecting them on the 30th day, when 465 people had died. But Begnion didn't lift the pact until the 100th day, when the death toll would be 5,050.

[Icelerate]

On 7/18/2023 at 12:35 AM, Acacia Sgt said:

Pft, now I got reminded of a crackfic that does just that. They officially rename Daein and POOF, Blood Pact invalidated.

EDIT: Oh, wait! It was Naesala who renames Kilvas. Daein does the "annexed by Crimea" route.

On a serious note, there's certainly enough implications that the wording of the Pact is important. This is why it's able to jump from Pelleas to Micaiah despite the former killing himself, and why only Lekain's death can truly stop it. And also how Naesala can defy the Senate by simply following Sanaki's orders.

What's the name of the fanfic? I'm interested in reading it. 

[Acacia Sgt]

7 hours ago, Icelerate said:

What's the name of the fanfic? I'm interested in reading it. 

Sorry, I don't remember the name. I think it was at Fanfiction.net at least.

[SnowFire]

Belated reply: Blood pact bad, yep.

To try to add something new to the "debate" since I think people have complained about this plenty...  so there's a trope in stories, especially older stories, where people are kind of treated as "owned" by others.  This has echoes of reality, of course - certainly parents really do "control" a lot of their kids' fates in their upbringing, especially in societies with a tradition of arranged marriages.  Maybe the most famous are various stories where parents trade their first-born child to a witch or a fairy or a demon or the like for a favor.  But it shows up elsewhere, too; in the book of Job (which is, at least, fairly clearly a story in-setting not pretending to be a historical event), God punishes Job by killing his kids.  This is some real shit as far as "terrible things sometimes happen to good people, like all their kids dying", but it's still messed up that some third parties are harmed far worse in the service of a morality test of someone else (i.e. Job himself).

Anyway, the Blood Pact plays into this on a grand scale: somehow kings themselves apparently "own" their subjects and can bargain them away, and the magic of the world confirms this.  This is...  horrifying.  Like Divine Right of Kings in ALL CAPITALS.  If Charles III made some Faustian deal, it's not just his own skin on the line, but apparently everyone in the British Commonwealth, because they're all his property he was magically empowered to offer?  Yikes.  Apparently all Elincia needed to do was go make a Blood Pact with Bastian, immediately break that, and then have Bastian target Ludveck with the backlash or something if she wanted to act wildly out of character.

I also dislike that Pelleas apparently signed his Blood Pact "by mistake."  To the extent that we want to invoke Faustian deals, they should be entered willingly.  Someone accidentally signing their soul to the devil is far less compelling a plot point than someone intentionally doing so.  As is, the idea of this being a "Pact" mostly isn't there, and it's closer to "unlucky victims of Lekain's magic."  Which...  maybe, but call it the Blood Curse or something then.  Or if you do want a Blood Pact, make it be more individual, where willing individuals get superpowers in exchange for Lekain being able to yank the magical buff at any time probably causing most of them to die from accumulated wounds, and maybe some key Daien personnel accepted such a power-up for other reasons.  (I get that there probably isn't time for this in C3 given this ends up close to the Disciples of Order in C4, but just a thought.)

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

On 7/19/2023 at 9:29 PM, Jotari said:

The two almost certainly did meet, as this is what Sephiran says with his battle quote with Pelleas.

Pelleas: If you're the one who's been pulling the strings behind all this, please tell me... Who... Who am I?
Sephiran: ...I don't know. All I know is that you are a powerful practitioner of magic... I know that you were an orphan born and raised in Daein. But that is all Izuka ever told me.

Never responded, but thanks for this bit. I do wonder whether Izuka knew he was speaking with Sephiran, or if he was deceived in some way (i.e. via a disguise, indirect communication, or... hypnosis? IDK.). Also unclear whether their communication is before or after Izuka disappears from Daein.

On 7/19/2023 at 9:29 PM, Jotari said:

Course...that seems to be exactly how things went down with the previous Daein King (I was about to say Ashnard's father, but he wasn't, was he? Ashnard was distantly related to the crown. Oh wait, but he says he killed his father to Bryce, didn't he? So was he like a 12th son or something?).

Per the wiki, Ashnard was the son of the King, but also "of a distant bloodline", so ?????. Seems irreconcilable to me - "distant bloodline" would imply that he wasn't directly descended from the current monarch, but instead shares, like, a great-grandfather with him. Maybe it was a mistranslation?

On 8/8/2023 at 10:53 PM, SnowFire said:

I also dislike that Pelleas apparently signed his Blood Pact "by mistake."  To the extent that we want to invoke Faustian deals, they should be entered willingly. 

Yeah, deeply dissatisfying. Especially because Pelleas isn't even getting anything in return. It's not even "buyer beware", it's "you didn't read the fine print, mwahaha!".

On 8/8/2023 at 10:53 PM, SnowFire said:

This is...  horrifying.  Like Divine Right of Kings in ALL CAPITALS.  If Charles III made some Faustian deal, it's not just his own skin on the line, but apparently everyone in the British Commonwealth, because they're all his property he was magically empowered to offer?  Yikes.

Another crack theory incoming: the Blood Pact requires, well, the signer's blood. This implies that there's something peculiar about the signer's blood that gives it validity. Now, Pelleas' blood didn't change when he became King of Daein. It was the same DNA, same red blood cells, same blood type. So, how would the pact know he was King?

Here's my idea: it wouldn't. Actually, it would know that he was never supposed to be King. He doesn't have the royal blood of Daein, after all. So if Lekain tried to activate it, it would... do nothing. It would only affect the people whom Pelleas' blood has "dominion" over, which, being baseborn, is... no one.

Now, if Soren had been tricked into signing the Pact, then we could have a real problem on our hands. Thank Ashunera he's clever enough to read the fine print...