Path of Radiance vs Radiant Dawn

[Jotari]

We've had a few threads asking what the best DS or GBA game etc is, but I've never seen any debates about the two Tellius games going head to head. There seems to be a lot more comparisons in other generations of the series. Maybe because the two Tellius games are on different consoles so a comparison is less readily available. Or maybe because it's one of the only direct sequels in the series, the two games seem to work in tandem rather than against each other (which even Binding and Blazing Blade seem to do). But for whatever reason, that ends today. Tell me which Tellius game you prefer and why.

For me it's Radiant Dawn all the way. It was my first Fire Emblem game, and by the time I got to Path of Radiance I had played through many of the standard Fire Emblem stories, so perhaps some bias is in effect, but I just find Radiant Dawn to be a more complete game. Not being freely equip skills in Path of Radiance is particularly irksome. And the game throws so much money at you and makes forging very freely available, which would be fun if the game wasn't so easy (thanks localization). Radiant Dawn's army splitting might not be for everyone, but for me I thought it was a great way of mixing up the gameplay and giving you loads of units to use. I also find the story, while not without it's flaws, a lot more ambitious and thematically interesting.

Edited August 13, 2023 by Jotari

[lenticular]

For me, I think it's pretty close and largely depends on my mood. As you say, Radiant Dawn is a more ambitious game, but it only sticks the landing on some of the things it tries and ends up more inconsistent as a result. Radiant Dawn has both the higher highs and the lower lows of the two games. Sometimes I'm willing to sit through the lows to get to the highs, but sometimes I want the more streamlined and consistent package that is Path of Radiance. Path of Radiance was also my first Fire Emblem, so there is definitely at least a little bit of nostalgia bias there.

The army splitting in Radiant Dawn never quite worked for me, especially with balance across different units. I always like raising up my group of idiots from zeroes to heroes, so it feels unsatisfying when the game just keeps on throwing OP units at me and I don't have to care about them stealing xp. This is especially the case for the Dawn Brigade, with Sothe, Volug, Tauroneo, Nailah and the Black Knight all fitting into that pattern. I also feel the loss of Support conversations in Radiant Dawn. And I think that removing basic UI features in the hardest difficulty setting is one of the single worst decisions in any Fire Emblem game.

So, overall, I'd say that I generally favour Path of Radiance... except that if I were to sit down and replay one of them right now, it would be Radiant Dawn. That's just what I'm in the mood for. So I don't know. Let's still say Path of Radiance, but only by a hair.

[samthedigital]

I see the story in the two games as parts of a whole, so comparing the two is somewhat redundant on that end. It's also important to note that this is the primary reason I go back to these games, and that's not true for any of the other games in the series.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Not being freely equip skills in Path of Radiance is particularly irksome. And the game throws so much money at you and makes forging very freely available, which would be fun if the game wasn't so easy (thanks localization).

This is exactly why I like the gameplay in Path of Radiance. It's simple from a tactical perspective relative to most entries in the series, and when that's what I'm looking for Path of Radiance is my first choice. That's not to say that I like Radiant Dawn any less, but it depends on my mood also.

[FlamesOfRagnell]

As an overall game experience, I think PoR beats out RD. RD takes far more risks, so funnily enough I respect it more than PoR, but I believe RD fails in a lot of those risks, so it just turns out less enjoyable than PoR. 

I really love changing between so many different armies in concept, but the units are so woefully imbalanced that the early to mid game is a frustrating slog and the late game is far too easy with your practically untouchable royal units. The unending reinforcements were just the icing on this cake of ridiculousness. 

As far as story goes I actually like RD quite a bit more than PoR. I never disliked the blood pact as much as everyone else (I was completely fine with it narratively other than the mechanics of it not being fully explained). It had far greater scope and pulled it off quite nicely. Micaiha's character getting upstaged by Yune was also upsetting, but her character arc was almost fully complete as far as I saw it, so I could have been worse. 

All that being said, I rank PoR only very slightly above RD. 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

My last playthrough of Path of Radiance was in 2020, but my last playthrough of Radiant Dawn was over a decade ago. I know for sure my preference back then was Radiant Dawn and I can't imagine it being different today. I still use "Best Fire Emblem since Radiant Dawn" as my top barometer for quality. I liked the new characters, I liked the more mature tone from the get go more than "Boyd, you're such a loser" "Shut your trap!". And I think Radiant Dawn's a contender for best battle animations in the series - but ultimately loses to Echoes. Anybody else watch these back in the day? Plus I think the gameplay is just really solid with a lot of memorable maps. The multiple army perspectives got us asking for them to do that or Route Splits again for every new game in the series - until Fates tainted the ideas forever by making it DLC.

Edited August 13, 2023 by Zapp Branniglenn

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

To Path of Radiance's credit, I think it has the better story here, and deserves the bulk of the credit for Tellius' rock-solid worldbuilding. It was a tight tale with pretty high stakes, that worked on its own, while also setting the stage for an even bigger crisis to follow. Throwing together supports and base conversations made for an impressive degree of characterization. And the unit balance, while a bit kneecapped by cavalry dominance, at least it feels like an attempt was made.

Radiant Dawn, conversely, is a game of extremes. It tells a grander story, over four parts, from the perspective of three different armies. You've got some truly excellent units, and some truly abysmal ones. But where its predecessor was happy to take much of GBAFE and add some tweaks (i.e. nearly identical weapon system, but now with forging!), this game really makes things its own. Stuff like Crossbows, Forging Cards, ledge mechanics, character-unique Biorythm patterns, a third tier, Olivi Grass... they're all ways in which Radiant Dawn builds upon Path of Radiance, and really reaffirms the unique identity of Tellius within the series' chronology. There may be more "misses" this time around (no visible enemy ranges on Hard, Tomes are terrible, awful Part III balancing), but when it hits, it hits hard. That's why it's my preferred of the two titles.

1 hour ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

And I think Radiant Dawn's a contender for best battle animations in the series - but ultimately loses to Echoes. Anybody else watch these back in the day? 

ShadowofChaos my beloved...

Ahem. They were excellent at the time, and definitely a leap up from what Path of Radiance offered. For that game to be missing the "combat window" just feels unforgivable nowadays. That said, I do think 3DSFE upped the ante, when it came to quick "get in, get out" animations, thus making it hard to spend ten seconds of my life watching Tauroneo... walking. I do agree that Echoes beats them, retaining the flashiness and general quality, while also running much more quickly. My only complaint? The decision to depict "attack" and "defense", rather than "damage dealt", particularly in a game that doesn't use a "Crit damage = Attack * 2 - Defense" formula.

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

For me it's Radiant Dawn all the way. It was my first Fire Emblem game,

Oh hey, it was my second, after Shadow Dragon! So we both belong to the "Sickos who didn't start with GBAFE or 3DSFE" society.

In that light, though, I do wonder if a big chunk of the credit I'm giving RD over PoR is, that I played it first.

[Jotari]

7 hours ago, lenticular said:

 it feels unsatisfying when the game just keeps on throwing OP units at me and I don't have to care about them stealing xp. 

Funny, but that's how Path of Radiance made me feel with it's powerful prepromotes like Stefan and Geoffrey.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

15 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Funny, but that's how Path of Radiance made me feel with it's powerful prepromotes like Stefan and Geoffrey.

This doesn't exactly feel comparable to me. Stefan joins early for his power level, yes, but he's in perhaps the worst class line in the game. Also, his low Luck presents a sort of "Achilles Heel", while his limited support options aren't much help, either. As for Geoffrey, he's strong when he joins, but that happens at the eleventh hour, with little game left to go. Most other prepromotes have some considerable issues. Lucia and Tauroneo are in bad classes, Bastian and Calill are missing staves, Largo is... Largo. The only ones who really come across as "excellent units" are Titania, Tanith... and maybe Haar.

Compare to Radiant Dawn, where "busted prepromote" is like the name of the game. Sothe and Zihark are two of your best in Part I, and still better than most in DB Part III. It gets fuzzier in Parts II and III, where almist everyone is second-tier, admittedly. But generally speaking, your higher-level units (Haar, Titania, Shinon) are your better ones. There are just a few worthy "growth units" this time around... Nolan? Jill? Ike, sort of? With this all coming back round in Part IV, and the tower. There, the Laguz Royals are essentially the "prepromotes" of the Manimal Kingdom, and they render their non-royal counterparts functionally irrelevant. If you're bringing Vika over Naesala, you're doing so for aesthetics, not gameplay.

[Dark Holy Elf]

PoR and RD were the fourth and fifth Fire Emblem games I finished (after the GBA games). Big fan of both. Out of the two I definitely prefer RD, though certainly a great strength of both games is their rich setting, which only exists due to the groundwork laid out in PoR, so in some ways the two are a package deal.

Broadly I prefer RD for the following reasons:

• The story is more interesting and ambitious. In these conversations I'll go for ambition over not, every single time. This should surprise nobody given what my favourite FE is. I'll particularly mention that I found all the antagonists of RD a lot better than those of PoR (including Zelgius who went from someone I was extremely unimpressed by in PoR to a character I ended up enjoying a fair bit in RD).
• I found the map design much more interesting, especially where it intersects with telling a story. I can instantly recall every map in part 2, they all feel extremely different from each other and all served a clear, distinct story role.
• I loved the rotating perspectives instead of being yet another RPG that follows a single heroic teenage boy (sorry Ike, I still like you). The story felt much richer as a result.
• I appreciated that I actually got to use most of the game's giant cast. Most Fire Emblems have 40+ characters but you just use a dozen of them and bench all the rest. In this game, thanks to the rotating perspectives and the Part 4 pathsplit, all but the worst PCs are worth using in at least some capacity. I find that cool.
• PoR's shop system is extremely annoying, with weapons appearing and disappearing randomly. Want to buy a hand axe? Better hope it's in the shop this chapter. RD is just much more user-friendly; once something appears in the shop, it stays there. The exceptions, the bargains, are advertised as temporary, which I'm fine with.
• Armour knights and snipers are worth using! I also much preferred how laguz worked in this game, though I can't say I was 100% happy with either game's implementation.
• I really enjoyed the info conversations, which provided a lot of opportunity for different characters to interact. PoR had them as well but because every single one featured Ike they felt a bit more limiting. Honestly I liked RD's info conversations more than PoR's supports, if I'm being honest.
• In terms of replayability, PoR's long map animations are a major drag. RD has its frustrating moments too (especially if you don't turn off yellow unit actions on some maps) but I find the "animations off" setting a lifesaver for my 5th, 6th, etc. playthrough of the game. (Yes I played both games this much, I really like both.)

 

Responses based on some other stuff in the thread:

-I definitely agree with @Shanty Pete's 1st Mate that RD is more of a "use the strongest unit / prepromo" game than PoR. Oscar, Kieran, Marcia, and Jill are all immediately mentioned as being among the strongest units in PoR; the only prepromo who's mentioned as often is Titania (who is the usual overpowered Marcus/Seth-type).

-I'm not really a big fan of either game's battle animations. Early 3D isn't really my favourite, and on top of that battle animations in these games are remarkably slow, particularly if it's something like an armour versus a wyvern. For my money, battle animations improved immensely with Awakening, not so much because they were pretty graphically (they weren't, IMO), but because of (a) critical cut-ins, (b) voice acting, (c) the ability to speedup or end the animation whenever I want, so I can play the game at my own pace, even if my mood changes mid-enemy-phase.

-I agree that RD's hard mode removing QoL (and the weapon triangle for that matter) is bad design. But in a direct comparison with PoR, I have to point out that RD Normal (which I almost always play) is still more challenging than any PoR difficulty I have access to, anyway, so I can't really give PoR credit for this.

[Etrurian emperor]

Oh that be like picking between my children.

Storywise guess Path of Radiance is the better game in the sense that it has fewer flaws. Its a very basic story but what's impressive about this is that Path of Radiance never skips out on detail like other simple stories would. This results in an experience that's both cohesive, largely flawless and full of detail. In this I think Path of Radiance is the perfect middle ground between ambition and simplicity. Fire Emblem has always had this awkward divide where some stories are very flawed but have a large amount of ambition, while other stories never fail because they never try anything. Path of Radiance instead never fails but also tries a ton of things, and because these things are all familiar tropes it tends to ace them all.

Radiant Dawn is an example of the aforementioned divide. It has a lot of ambition and tries a lot of things, but it doesn't try some of those very well. On the other hand while Radiant Dawn has lower lows it also has higher highs, and the mistakes it makes are relatively small. Radiant Dawn also has a uniquely in debt look in regards to military campaigning which is very charming.

In general this applies to the gameplay too. Path of Radiance is ''Traditional Fire Emblem: the game''. It has some perks like skills but overall its not that different from the GBA games that preceded it. Radiant Dawn meanwhile makes some very brave gameplay decisions which certainly don't always pay off or can create weird situations, but they do make Radiant Dawn a one of a kind experience. 

Edited August 13, 2023 by Etrurian emperor

[ping]

Since I still have PoR as my favourite game in my profile, I'm tempted to be a contrarian against myself and vote Radiant Dawn.

But I think the honest answer is PoR. It's my favourite "chill" FE game, that I can play without checking every enemy's stats or worrying overly much about effective weapons or killers. I know that this can also be cited to support the case of PoR being not very interesting to play, but... it just feels comfortable to me. Similarly, I enjoy that BEXP allows you to use whoever you want without too much issue (and, again, I know that this also means that there's not much of a challenge in using Mia and Rolf). And having played through Maniac mode for the first time recently, that was a better experience than I expected, too, even though enemy phases would be too slow if you could speed them up by 400%.

And that doesn't even mention the writing. PoR's main story is pretty much bog-standard Fire Emblem - country gets invaded, travel around the world to gather allies, including the big good country, then return home and prod some buttocks - but all the presentation of Beorc-Laguz conflicts I really appreciate. Jill's still up there as maybe my favourite non-silly FE character of all time, and it's not like her personality is fleshed out immensely in RD.

I will say that I find that PoR's story really only gets completed in RD's parts 1 and 2, with the first one being a darker, more cynical, gender-flipped version of Ike and Elincia's story and the second part showing that despite PoR's overall very idealistic story, Crimea isn't just "the nice people doing nice things". But at the same time, I still don't love where things go in pt.3 and 4, so PoR wins in this department.

And as far as RD's gameplay goes - I don't really have anything massively negative to say. It has its problems (the Dawn Brigade relying so much on prepromotes is one that I also dislike a fair bit), but I do enjoy playing it nevertheless, including the army switches. It just doesn't have the distinction of being my favourite "demanding" FE game (that title still goes to BinBla), so... advantage PoR on that side, too.

[samthedigital]

29 minutes ago, gnip said:

And having played through Maniac mode for the first time recently, that was a better experience than I expected, too, even though enemy phases would be too slow if you could speed them up by 400%.

Were you taking advantage of the fast enemy phase trick? It's still not not fast, but it helps.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

This doesn't exactly feel comparable to me. Stefan joins early for his power level, yes, but he's in perhaps the worst class line in the game. Also, his low Luck presents a sort of "Achilles Heel", while his limited support options aren't much help, either. As for Geoffrey, he's strong when he joins, but that happens at the eleventh hour, with little game left to go. Most other prepromotes have some considerable issues. Lucia and Tauroneo are in bad classes, Bastian and Calill are missing staves, Largo is... Largo. The only ones who really come across as "excellent units" are Titania, Tanith... and maybe Haar.

Compare to Radiant Dawn, where "busted prepromote" is like the name of the game. Sothe and Zihark are two of your best in Part I, and still better than most in DB Part III. It gets fuzzier in Parts II and III, where almist everyone is second-tier, admittedly. But generally speaking, your higher-level units (Haar, Titania, Shinon) are your better ones. There are just a few worthy "growth units" this time around... Nolan? Jill? Ike, sort of? With this all coming back round in Part IV, and the tower. There, the Laguz Royals are essentially the "prepromotes" of the Manimal Kingdom, and they render their non-royal counterparts functionally irrelevant. If you're bringing Vika over Naesala, you're doing so for aesthetics, not gameplay.

Yeah, but they feel more "right" for want of a better word in Radiant Dawn. Sothe and Tauroneo have their own roles to play as OP units with no real competition. And the royals are like an optional way of making the end game easier (and more narratively dramatic). Meanwhile in PoR, just feels kind of like wasted effort when you've trained Astrid all game only for Geoffrey to show up happy as you please with better stats.

[vanguard333]

I will readily admit bias since Path of Radiance is my favourite video game, but I do think Path of Radiance is the better game. The narrative is more refined, there are actual support conversations (which are the best set of support conversations in the series), the characters are fantastic, the non-royal Laguz are more useful in this game, nothing in the main story can only be unlocked on a 2nd playthrough, etc.

I can completely understand seeing Radiant Dawn as the better game; in many regards (particularly in terms of gameplay), it is better: the ability to remove and reassign skills is great, the addition of 1-2 range swords and heavy axes & lances means the weapons are a lot better balanced, ledges are a great addition to the map design and it's disappointing that no FE game has used them since, crossbows are a great addition, dark magic is woefully underutilized due to the 2nd playthrough requirement but is a cool addition nonetheless, etc. However, the game's grander scale and ambition is a double-edged sword; the new characters are underutilized because they have less time in their own game than the established characters got in PoR, the 4-part storyline enables a lot of cool things like playable armies vs playable armies in part 3 but also means some entire groups of characters are far less available than others, etc.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Yeah, but they feel more "right" for want of a better word in Radiant Dawn. Sothe and Tauroneo have their own roles to play as OP units with no real competition. And the royals are like an optional way of making the end game easier (and more narratively dramatic). Meanwhile in PoR, just feels kind of like wasted effort when you've trained Astrid all game only for Geoffrey to show up happy as you please with better stats.

So, I had half a mind to compare these two, based on the "Average Stats" listed here on Serenes. Joining as a level 11 Paladin, Geoffrey looks like:

Spoiler

HP: 43

Str: 18

Mag: 9

Skl: 17

Spd: 19

Lck: 12

Def: 21

Res: 9

And, as a 20/11 Paladin (decimal stats rounded down), Astrid looks like:

Spoiler

HP: 38

Str: 19

Mag: 9

Skl: 23

Spd: 22

Lck: 14

Def: 16

Res: 13

So, comparing the two, Geoffrey has a clear advantage in physical bulk. But when it comes to dealing damage (physical or magical), and taking magical hits, they're roughly even. Meanwhile, Astrid has a clear advantage in both Skill and Speed. And the latter can be bolstered further, if you've been abusing the Knight Ward on her. Geoffrey's A Lances is nice, but Astrid will almost certainly have his C-rank in Bows beaten by this point. Plus, she has the option to train in Axes upon promotion, letting her use forged Hand Axes. She'll also probably have a support or two "live" by this point, while Geoffrey will need to build his over the next few chapters.

In summary, a trained Astrid certainly looks competetive with a bases Geoffrey. She could be a bit worse off, or maybe a bit better. And if you've been training Astrid, but want to try out Geoffrey, just go ahead and use both. There's hardly any such thing as "too many Paladins in Path of Radiance", after all.

4 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I really enjoyed the info conversations, which provided a lot of opportunity for different characters to interact. PoR had them as well but because every single one featured Ike they felt a bit more limiting.

Wait, they did? I never noticed this! Huh. Compare to Radiant Dawn, where my favorite base conversation was a bunch of nameless Crimean villagers debating between racism, and love of Mordecai.

[Fire Emblem Fan]

Just as an overall game, Path of Radiance wins it for me. Radiant Dawn always felt a little clunkier and far less balanced, it isn't as "fun" for me to go back and play as PoR is (but I do still like RD, of course).

[ping]

8 hours ago, samthedigital said:

Were you taking advantage of the fast enemy phase trick? It's still not not fast, but it helps.

I didn't know it existed Thank you for the tip.

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

Meanwhile in PoR, just feels kind of like wasted effort when you've trained Astrid all game only for Geoffrey to show up happy as you please with better stats.

Geoffrey honestly isn't that amazing when he joins. He's probably going to be fairly behind in levels compared to your heavy hitters. For reference - this was my team in the Maniac run after the Defend Geoffrey map:

Spoiler

	Lv	  HP  Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res
Ike	20/13.60  51   24   8  27* 26  20  24* 16   (+7 HP)
Marcia	21/16.83  45   23* 10  26* 28* 15  23  19   (+7 HP, +2 Def)
Jill	21/18.62  49   27*  3  23  27* 11  26  12   (+2 Spd, +2 Def, +2 Mov)

Astrid  21/19.71  39   25* 11  26* 27* 22  22  19
Titania  */14.75  44   21   8  21  23  17  19  15   (+2 Str)
Kieran  21/13.78  45   24   4  17  26  15  21  13
Boyd	21/10.43  53   25   2  22  23  13  16   8   (+2 Spd)

Soren	18/15.28  42    3  24  27  18  13  10  28*
Rhys	21/8.55   32    2  29* 17  16  19   8  28
Mordy   4.85	  45   17   2   9   8  11  15   6
Reyson	8.82	  26    1  12  15  17  18   4  22

Lucia    */12.31  36   15  12  21  23  16  10   8   (base)
Bastian  */13.49  35   12  19  21  16  15  12  20   (base)

You can ignore the actual stats for this argument because I've been BEXP-rigging - the point is that seven of my characters are at a higher level than Geoffrey, with Astrid in particular being almost capped thanks to her Paragon skill. If we compare their averages with Geoffrey's joining stats, it would look like this:

	Lv	HP  Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res
Ike	20/13   46   23   9  23  26  17  20  14
Marcia	21/16   40   22   8  24  28* 16  17  18
Jill	21/18   46   25  10  25  24  13  23  12
Astrid  21/19   42   23  11  26* 26  18  19  15

Titania  */14   43   18   7  21  20  17  16  13
Kieran  21/13   45   23   6  22  22  13  20  10
Soren	18/15   36    4  26  27  22  14   9  26

Geoffrey */11   43   18   9  17  19  12  21   9

...which is a much more mundane look than what you're describing. 18 Str/19 Spd are pretty modest offensive stats at that point in the game, so his only good quality is his physical bulk. If you consider pre-built supports and stat boosters that you already might've distributed, Geoffrey really just joins as an OK filler, not as this incredibly good unit like Sothe or Volug (not technically a prepromote, but he plays like one) or Tauroneo or Zihark or Tormod or Muarim or Nailah or BK for the Dawn Brigade.

[Jotari]

8 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

So, I had half a mind to compare these two, based on the "Average Stats" listed here on Serenes. Joining as a level 11 Paladin, Geoffrey looks like:

  Reveal hidden contents

HP: 43

Str: 18

Mag: 9

Skl: 17

Spd: 19

Lck: 12

Def: 21

Res: 9

And, as a 20/11 Paladin (decimal stats rounded down), Astrid looks like:

  Reveal hidden contents

HP: 38

Str: 19

Mag: 9

Skl: 23

Spd: 22

Lck: 14

Def: 16

Res: 13

So, comparing the two, Geoffrey has a clear advantage in physical bulk. But when it comes to dealing damage (physical or magical), and taking magical hits, they're roughly even. Meanwhile, Astrid has a clear advantage in both Skill and Speed. And the latter can be bolstered further, if you've been abusing the Knight Ward on her. Geoffrey's A Lances is nice, but Astrid will almost certainly have his C-rank in Bows beaten by this point. Plus, she has the option to train in Axes upon promotion, letting her use forged Hand Axes. She'll also probably have a support or two "live" by this point, while Geoffrey will need to build his over the next few chapters.

In summary, a trained Astrid certainly looks competetive with a bases Geoffrey. She could be a bit worse off, or maybe a bit better. And if you've been training Astrid, but want to try out Geoffrey, just go ahead and use both. There's hardly any such thing as "too many Paladins in Path of Radiance", after all.

Wait, they did? I never noticed this! Huh. Compare to Radiant Dawn, where my favorite base conversation was a bunch of nameless Crimean villagers debating between racism, and love of Mordecai.

 

2 hours ago, gnip said:

I didn't know it existed Thank you for the tip.

Geoffrey honestly isn't that amazing when he joins. He's probably going to be fairly behind in levels compared to your heavy hitters. For reference - this was my team in the Maniac run after the Defend Geoffrey map:

  Reveal hidden contents

	Lv	  HP  Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res
Ike	20/13.60  51   24   8  27* 26  20  24* 16   (+7 HP)
Marcia	21/16.83  45   23* 10  26* 28* 15  23  19   (+7 HP, +2 Def)
Jill	21/18.62  49   27*  3  23  27* 11  26  12   (+2 Spd, +2 Def, +2 Mov)

Astrid  21/19.71  39   25* 11  26* 27* 22  22  19
Titania  */14.75  44   21   8  21  23  17  19  15   (+2 Str)
Kieran  21/13.78  45   24   4  17  26  15  21  13
Boyd	21/10.43  53   25   2  22  23  13  16   8   (+2 Spd)

Soren	18/15.28  42    3  24  27  18  13  10  28*
Rhys	21/8.55   32    2  29* 17  16  19   8  28
Mordy   4.85	  45   17   2   9   8  11  15   6
Reyson	8.82	  26    1  12  15  17  18   4  22

Lucia    */12.31  36   15  12  21  23  16  10   8   (base)
Bastian  */13.49  35   12  19  21  16  15  12  20   (base)

You can ignore the actual stats for this argument because I've been BEXP-rigging - the point is that seven of my characters are at a higher level than Geoffrey, with Astrid in particular being almost capped thanks to her Paragon skill. If we compare their averages with Geoffrey's joining stats, it would look like this:

	Lv	HP  Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res
Ike	20/13   46   23   9  23  26  17  20  14
Marcia	21/16   40   22   8  24  28* 16  17  18
Jill	21/18   46   25  10  25  24  13  23  12
Astrid  21/19   42   23  11  26* 26  18  19  15

Titania  */14   43   18   7  21  20  17  16  13
Kieran  21/13   45   23   6  22  22  13  20  10
Soren	18/15   36    4  26  27  22  14   9  26

Geoffrey */11   43   18   9  17  19  12  21   9

...which is a much more mundane look than what you're describing. 18 Str/19 Spd are pretty modest offensive stats at that point in the game, so his only good quality is his physical bulk. If you consider pre-built supports and stat boosters that you already might've distributed, Geoffrey really just joins as an OK filler, not as this incredibly good unit like Sothe or Volug (not technically a prepromote, but he plays like one) or Tauroneo or Zihark or Tormod or Muarim or Nailah or BK for the Dawn Brigade.

That's just the earnest feeling I had playing Path of Radiance (and I actually did give Astrid Handaxes). It's possible I had a rng screwed Astrid, or I just deemed her speed advantage pretty immaterial since Geofrey looked like he had no trouble doubling either. Of course, I should plainly state that I've only played Path of Radiance once, still, it was a real example of a real feeling and not something imagined up (and I suspect it stems from the deeper problem of Path of Radiance just being too easy a game for me when I first played it).

Edited August 14, 2023 by Jotari

[null]

I'd hand it to Dawn. It's not as easy to jump back into for replays, but it's a more satisfying overall experience.

Path is a smooth and consistent playthrough, rarely demanding much of the player, while Dawn is a more ambitious, bumpier ride, so to speak. I love 'em both and they have their ups and downs, but Dawn's peaks make it the better game in my mind, consistency and balance be damned. It requires a lot of the player, but that just makes it more rewarding.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

16 hours ago, Jotari said:

 

That's just the earnest feeling I had playing Path of Radiance (and I actually did give Astrid Handaxes). It's possible I had a rng screwed Astrid, or I just deemed her speed advantage pretty immaterial since Geofrey looked like he had no trouble doubling either. Of course, I should plainly state that I've only played Path of Radiance once, still, it was a real example of a real feeling and not something imagined up (and I suspect it stems from the deeper problem of Path of Radiance just being too easy a game for me when I first played it).

So, I think it's definitely plausible that you would've had an experience that lent to such an impression while playing the game. Still, just because you had an impression, doesn't necessarily mean it was an accurate one. Like, I had the impression for the longest time that Rebecca couldn't use Steel Bows at base. So learning she joins with D Bows was quite the shock. In any case, not saying that you were misrepresenting your personal experience, but just that your experience doesn't appear to comport with an average playthrough. 

19 hours ago, gnip said:

Geoffrey honestly isn't that amazing when he joins. He's probably going to be fairly behind in levels compared to your heavy hitters. For reference - this was my team in the Maniac run after the Defend Geoffrey map:

I'm curious - how has levelling gone on Maniac Mode? I know there are more enemies to fight, but I assume you get less experience from each one. Overall, though, do your units tend to reach the same level benchmarks that they would on Hard, or has it gone differently?

23 hours ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

Just as an overall game, Path of Radiance wins it for me. Radiant Dawn always felt a little clunkier and far less balanced, it isn't as "fun" for me to go back and play as PoR is (but I do still like RD, of course).

Since you're our resident Brom enthusiast, I need to know - Lances, or Axes?

[Fire Emblem Fan]

51 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Since you're our resident Brom enthusiast, I need to know - Lances, or Axes?

I actually prefer Brom with an axe, differentiates him a little from Gatrie and Tauroneo. Either way, though, Brom is always my staple knight in both Tellius games.

[ping]

4 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I'm curious - how has levelling gone on Maniac Mode? I know there are more enemies to fight, but I assume you get less experience from each one. Overall, though, do your units tend to reach the same level benchmarks that they would on Hard, or has it gone differently?

I think the total XP gain isn't actually that different from Hard, maybe even a bit higher. I had the first two promotions during ch.13 (the boat map where Astrid and Gatrie join), which I think is in the same ballpark as on hard difficulty and I ended up with five capped characters in the end, without really maximising combat XP at any point and with only one staff user (who was technically only Lv.18/20 instead of 21/20) among them. I did keep track of my unit stats in my play log from ch.7 onwards, if you're interested.

What I can say for certain is that you gain much more combat XP and much less BEXP in Maniac. Maniac completely removes any "Clear bonus" BEXP, that you get independently from turn count or any bonus objective, and halves almost every other BEXP source (the one exception, I believe, being the stealth bonus for the prison break). At the same time, the combat XP formula is only reduced a little compared to hard: a flat -5 XP per kill, only modified by Blossom/Paragon, according to the main site. And with Maniac's tendency to throw a billion enemies at you, and hardly any unpromoted enemies past Ike's story promotion, that seems to make up for the lowered BEXP gain.

[Jotari]

6 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

So, I think it's definitely plausible that you would've had an experience that lent to such an impression while playing the game. Still, just because you had an impression, doesn't necessarily mean it was an accurate one. Like, I had the impression for the longest time that Rebecca couldn't use Steel Bows at base. So learning she joins with D Bows was quite the shock. In any case, not saying that you were misrepresenting your personal experience, but just that your experience doesn't appear to comport with an average playthrough.

Oh I wasn't trying to suggest my experience was objective. I was just clarifying that it was a genuine experiencing and not an example I just pulled out of my ass. Call it, personal experience vs hypothetical experience.

Edited August 15, 2023 by Jotari

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

12 hours ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

I actually prefer Brom with an axe, differentiates him a little from Gatrie and Tauroneo. Either way, though, Brom is always my staple knight in both Tellius games.

I feel the same, but admittedly, I've never used PoR Brom. Might have to remedy that on my next playthrough! Incidentally, if we were to get a "Tellius remaster", I think switching PoR Brom over to Axes could be a cool change, helping him stand out. Although, I get that any such change would be controversial. 

8 hours ago, gnip said:

What I can say for certain is that you gain much more combat XP and much less BEXP in Maniac. Maniac completely removes any "Clear bonus" BEXP, that you get independently from turn count or any bonus objective, and halves almost every other BEXP source (the one exception, I believe, being the stealth bonus for the prison break). At the same time, the combat XP formula is only reduced a little compared to hard: a flat -5 XP per kill, only modified by Blossom/Paragon, according to the main site. And with Maniac's tendency to throw a billion enemies at you, and hardly any unpromoted enemies past Ike's story promotion, that seems to make up for the lowered BEXP gain.

Good to know! Sounds relatively merciful, especially compared to RD Hard, where (if memory serves) both BEXP and CEXP are lowered dramatically. I appreciate your thread and feedback for "de-mystifying" Maniac Mode, which now sounds definitely beatable for those of us who have braved RD Hard.

[Xander]

It's not close at all and it's interesting to me how this conversation seems to be between the newer generation of FE fans who didn't even live through playing the games until over a decade after they were released, and haven't even played through each game (or probably either game) 10 times (Three Houses and Engage are both great games as well but, and I mean this in the nicest way possible, if you started with those then you probably have no business giving your opinion on Tellius games). All I ask is that if you're going to do this at least show respect to the games by comparing them without trying to prop one game up while tearing the other one down with ridiculous criticisms.

Edited April 11 by Xander