Least Favorite Part

[Thingy Person]

Part 1: Each time I hear "Echoes of Daybreak" on the first map, my heart sinks, because I am reminded that I have to go through this shit part before the game actually takes off. You just defeated Ashera and here you are, fighting bandits again. It gets a little better once you join the Liberators. But goddamn, two hits and your units die. I know hard is, in a way, quite fun, but I just can't help pitying the Dawn Brigade. Aran is awesome, though, because he looks exactly like an ordinary soldier yet he can tank quite well, something the rest of your team can't hold a candle to.

Part 2: I actually liked it. Nephenee, Royal Knights, Danved who fights like Loch Ness Monster...sure, it's jumpy, but it gives you some nice units to play around with. Also, Makalov.

Part 3: My favourite (how original). The greater part of your character training happens here, and the story starts being epic.

Part 4: Blegh. You need to train more units than you need (seeing as you have three teams to populate), and having 4-F over you like a looming cloud deduces from the experience. Endgame itself is great, though.

[Lord Raven]

Is Pent in Tellius? No. What he can do means nothing in regards to what Micaiah can do.

Eirika's not in Tellius either.

It means more to what she can't do, and shows how frail she really is - reduced to the level of an archer because she has poor defense.

At base HP, that's still healing 14 HP for an ally, which will allow them to do something other than heal themself on that turn and still grants Micaiah experience.

One more hit and she's dead~

She can counter attack, but she doesn't need to. Eirika can double, but she still doesn't one-round. Micaiah does about the same amount of damage to her enemies in one round, occasionally more with bonus damage, but only uses one shot of her weapon and doesn't take a counter attack. That's better.

Swords are a lot cheaper than Light magic. In both games.

Eirika can afford to use a better sword to help one round because her speed is just that damn secure. Micaiah won't be one rounding no matter what weapon you give her because of her lack of speed.

Eirika has bonus damage too. Rapier, anyone?

Chapter one already has more lance users than axe users. Seth is a hell of a lot better for the boss anyway.

I always thought Chapter one had both. Chapter two has a load more axe users, I know for a fact.

Seth is technically better than every single person against every single enemy in the early game so I don't see why that matters.

The comparison was "Who in her game is better than her?" I'm not comparing anyone on offensive ability alone if they can do more than that.

No, you said "who was better than her at her job," her job being offense.

Before promotion. Eirika > Neimi. After, Neimi > Eirika. This is also because Neimi promotes sooner.

Before promotion lasts 14 chapters out of 21. After promotion lasts 16 chapters out of 21. So that's two chapters where Neimi has a noticeable lead, 5 where it's trivial if it even were to exist. In your untrue circumstance, being better for 2/3 of the game > being better for 1/3, and Eirika's apart of the former.

That's stupid. Characters aren't judged on offense alone if they can do more than that.

I'm pretty sure if you look back, you see that the point primarily dealt with offense. And who's doing Eirika's job as an offensive character better than she is. Natasha and Moulder have no real offense until the last thirds of the game and Colm's offense is pretty bad.

It's the best tome she has to use, why would you not use it? The dragons are so slow even she can double them, and I don't remember them being accurate either. Then there's the spirits that can't even hurt her.

You've yet to play hard mode. When I recall playing the red dragons had like 45% hit on her on easy mode, which is subject to increase even more especially considering Micaiah is probably like at a low level, due to many premature promotions and still not being at that high a level. How can you expect her to get SS in Light magic?

Then there's the spirits that can't even hurt her.

Then there's Ashera that she'll have a hard time doing damage against.

With her massive magic, Thani's 8 might, and the fact she's attacking resistance, she's hitting everything heavily all the way through parts 1 and 3, and still doing a decent job in part 4.

Offensively speaking, she does a relatively poor job in Part IV. Offensively speaking, she's doing alright in Part I only due to the fact that she has Thani and high magic. Offensively speaking, she's not doing much worse than Part I, if at all; I'd put it below Part I because enemies are a lot stronger.

The later parts are also easier in both games I might add. So what if Eirika shines there? (She doesn't really anyway) It's the easiest part of the game. Micaiah is less useful later because it's the easiest part of the game, but she's still fairly useful because characters still need healing on occasion.

Mist can take care of that job with better movement to boot. How easy they are is irrelevant, how well they're doing in both is more relevant. Micaiah isn't doing that much damage and is still healing (oh come on, you're shitting on what you're trying to defend) but Eirika's starting to do more damage and is mounted... and has access to many a silver sword by this point.

I agree. This is why Micaiah > Eirika.

Micaiah's the detriment shortly into Part I. Eirika's fine in all her chapters. Both are forced, and Eirika's pretty good for a forced Lord.

Micaiah is not nearly as bad as you make her out to be, and Eirika not nearly as good as you make her out to be.

No.. Micaiah's pretty bad. Eirika's either in the bottom or the middle of high tier in her game.

I've only said enough when one of us is proven wrong. I know and believe that - in both relative and overall terms - Eirika > Micaiah. Therefore, Micaiah exists mainly to make Part I hell. I can't think of a more out of fit Lord for this game than her.

[Florete]

Eirika's not in Tellius either.

It means more to what she can't do, and shows how frail she really is - reduced to the level of an archer because she has poor defense.

But she's the one we're comparing.

Because Pent is an average representation of all mages, right?

Swords are a lot cheaper than Light magic. In both games.

Eirika can afford to use a better sword to help one round because her speed is just that damn secure. Micaiah won't be one rounding no matter what weapon you give her because of her lack of speed.

Eirika has bonus damage too. Rapier, anyone?

Thani costs a total of 0 gold. Micaiah costs less than Eirika. Micaiah can one-round whenever she one-shots an enemy. Giving Eirika a better sword also lowers her avoid; not good with her below average defenses.

Weaker weapon, anyone? She still doesn't one-round as often with it. Also take into account she usually has WTD along with the bonus damage.

I always thought Chapter one had both. Chapter two has a load more axe users, I know for a fact.

Seth is technically better than every single person against every single enemy in the early game so I don't see why that matters.

Chapter one, as I recall, has 2 axe users and about 5 lance users, including the boss.

It matters because he's there and he can kill the boss better than her, thus making her not the best candidate to kill the boss.

No, you said "who was better than her at her job," her job being offense.

I asked you to give me your list of who she was outperforming. Utility is part of performance.

Before promotion lasts 14 chapters out of 21. After promotion lasts 16 chapters out of 21. So that's two chapters where Neimi has a noticeable lead, 5 where it's trivial if it even were to exist. In your untrue circumstance, being better for 2/3 of the game > being better for 1/3, and Eirika's apart of the former.

So Eirika route Eirika > Neimi > Ephraim route Eirika? Happy?

I'm pretty sure if you look back, you see that the point primarily dealt with offense. And who's doing Eirika's job as an offensive character better than she is. Natasha and Moulder have no real offense until the last thirds of the game and Colm's offense is pretty bad.

That's stupid. Characters aren't judged on offense alone if they can do more than that.

You've yet to play hard mode. When I recall playing the red dragons had like 45% hit on her on easy mode, which is subject to increase even more especially considering Micaiah is probably like at a low level, due to many premature promotions and still not being at that high a level. How can you expect her to get SS in Light magic?

LOL! Like you've been judging this on hard mode the whole time anyway. Most of your arguments seem directed at normal mode, and the rest could go either way. Besides, I just haven't finished hard mode; I know what it's like. Personally, I always use an Arms Scroll on Micaiah's light magic because there are plenty and nobody else needs one, but then again there's always two Discipline scrolls.

Then there's Ashera that she'll have a hard time doing damage against.

Then there's the Fortify staff she can use.

Offensively speaking, she does a relatively poor job in Part IV. Offensively speaking, she's doing alright in Part I only due to the fact that she has Thani and high magic. Offensively speaking, she's not doing much worse than Part I, if at all; I'd put it below Part I because enemies are a lot stronger

I'll give you the part 4 part of that. But guess what? Part 4 is where things get easy. She isn't needed as much so she doesn't need to be as good. But in part 1, how is one-shotting certain bosses and enemies and massively injuring others bad? P.S. Don't forget she still has Sacrifice and a Sothe support.

Mist can take care of that job with better movement to boot. How easy they are is irrelevant, how well they're doing in both is more relevant. Micaiah isn't doing that much damage and is still healing (oh come on, you're shitting on what you're trying to defend) but Eirika's starting to do more damage and is mounted... and has access to many a silver sword by this point.

Mist is another team entirely in part 4. How much they help their team is what is relevant. Eirika starts getting better in the easier part of the game but still isn't as good as at least half of the units in the game while Micaiah is very useful in the harder parts of the game and still pretty useful in the easier parts. Micaiah is more useful where it counts. That makes her better as a character overall.

Micaiah's the detriment shortly into Part I. Eirika's fine in all her chapters. Both are forced, and Eirika's pretty good for a forced Lord.

Micaiah is helping in all the ways I've repeated many times! There are always characters much better than Eirika around.

No.. Micaiah's pretty bad. Eirika's either in the bottom or the middle of high tier in her game.

I've only said enough when one of us is proven wrong. I know and believe that - in both relative and overall terms - Eirika > Micaiah. Therefore, Micaiah exists mainly to make Part I hell. I can't think of a more out of fit Lord for this game than her.

Don't bring tier lists into this. There's no cross game tier list, so it really doesn't matter. Besides, you can't have a debate if you just point to the tier list and go "Oh, that character is better."

I don't know how you can still see Micaiah as bad as you do after all the things I've said. Maybe we ought to take this to the debate boards and let the judges decide.

[Mekkah]

For their respective games, Micaiah > Eirika.

Now, I haven't played RD at all, but from what I know Micaiah is less durable than even Leonardo and Eddie (concretely, that is). And those are the units with bad bad bad durability...not even talking about more tanklike units such as Nolan, Aran, or kicking it even higher, Volug, Nailah, Burger King. While her offense is decent, she can really only use it once per turn, due to being an enemy phase liability. Kind of like a Sniper.

Eirika, however, I believe is vastly underrated as a unit. On Ephraim route, sure, all she has is earlygame and endgame, but on Eirika route, she is useful. Far above average. Support list giving her a bunch of Atk and Def, Rapier (and 80 uses of it), and fast enough to double Mercs/Myrms after a while, something even God tiers have trouble with. And endgame, she is like any other unit with a legendary weapon, and it's personal. Pretty much no reason not to use her there.

I'd say Leaf and Roy are worse than Eirika, despite their obvious pros.

Edited December 7, 2008 by Mekkah

[Ike-Mike]

1. the only units that can move well are the fliers and mages....and its a pretty damn big stage, too.

I recall this stage being one of the smallest desert stages if not the smallest.

But maybe my memories are deceiving me ...

[Lord Raven]

Because Pent is an average representation of all mages, right?

No, Pent is the one mage that everyone needs to be like. But they can't. They won't always suck, but it says a lot about what a Mage can't do if Pent can do it.

Thani costs a total of 0 gold. Micaiah costs less than Eirika. Micaiah can one-round whenever she one-shots an enemy. Giving Eirika a better sword also lowers her avoid; not good with her below average defenses.

So? You get a lot of Gold in FE8 that it doesn't even matter. There's no ranks so sell away! The heavier weapons also lower her evade negligibly because her speed is damn high anyway.

Weaker weapon, anyone? She still doesn't one-round as often with it. Also take into account she usually has WTD along with the bonus damage.

She does, actually. about 22 attack x2 at base level is pretty good.

Chapter one, as I recall, has 2 axe users and about 5 lance users, including the boss.

I haven't played FE8 for a while but I swear to God this isn't right.

It matters because he's there and he can kill the boss better than her, thus making her not the best candidate to kill the boss.

He's also the best candidate to kill every enemy there. But you're not going to do that, are you?

I asked you to give me your list of who she was outperforming. Utility is part of performance.

Outperforming in offense.

So Eirika route Eirika > Neimi > Ephraim route Eirika? Happy?

Ephraim route Eirika is still doing better than Neimi because Eirika's offense still leads and she's still doing better.

That's stupid. Characters aren't judged on offense alone if they can do more than that.

Except I'm not judging the entire character, I'm judging one aspect of their character. You're missing the point.

LOL! Like you've been judging this on hard mode the whole time anyway. Most of your arguments seem directed at normal mode, and the rest could go either way. Besides, I just haven't finished hard mode; I know what it's like. Personally, I always use an Arms Scroll on Micaiah's light magic because there are plenty and nobody else needs one, but then again there's always two Discipline scrolls.

And she's still not going to be one rounding the dragons.

(I'm judging on Normal mode then jacking them proportional to the 2/3 of HM I've played, since I'm too lazy to finish too).

Then there's the Fortify staff she can use.

So can Mist.

I'll give you the part 4 part of that. But guess what? Part 4 is where things get easy. She isn't needed as much so she doesn't need to be as good. But in part 1, how is one-shotting certain bosses and enemies and massively injuring others bad? P.S. Don't forget she still has Sacrifice and a Sothe support.

Sacrifice fails. Sothe support is okay.

Part IV being where things get easy doesn't excuse anything. If she's not helping the team much, she's not helping the team much; no excuses.

Mist is another team entirely in part 4. How much they help their team is what is relevant. Eirika starts getting better in the easier part of the game but still isn't as good as at least half of the units in the game while Micaiah is very useful in the harder parts of the game and still pretty useful in the easier parts. Micaiah is more useful where it counts. That makes her better as a character overall.

Eirika's not as good as one thirds of the game. And you've yet to fully refute this.

She's just as useful when it counts. She's frail as all fuck in Part I (which is still harder than Part III) and can't heal. And has a weak offense because it's player phase only.

Micaiah is helping in all the ways I've repeated many times! There are always characters much better than Eirika around.

At the beginning you just have... Seth and Franz. And Vanessa, who has WTD for a while anyway. Eirika's pretty much with the pack as you start out, and her only real lagging time is before chapter 16 - don't forget, she has a ton of good supports to make use of as well.

Don't bring tier lists into this. There's no cross game tier list, so it really doesn't matter. Besides, you can't have a debate if you just point to the tier list and go "Oh, that character is better."

Cross game tier list isn't relevant. Relative position in the tier list is. being bottom of high in your game. > Being bottom or middle of mid in your game

I don't know how you can still see Micaiah as bad as you do after all the things I've said. Maybe we ought to take this to the debate boards and let the judges decide.

I'd rather not. If anyone else wants to jump in feel free, because the open field is where the real debating occurs.

[Knife]

i hate the desert stage.

I HATE IT I HATE IT I HATE IT I HATE IT.

1. the only units that can move well are the fliers and mages....and its a pretty damn big stage, too.

2. the enemies!! I SWEAR THE ENEMY NUMBER IS OVER NINE THOUSAND!!!!!!!

3. it'll take SOOOOOO MANY TURNS to get someone to collect all the goodies buried in the sand (see also reason 1)

4. the bk can only move what...2 spaces in that level???? 2 SPACES!!! if you have killed all the enemies around his warp point, then that defeats the purpose of him ever appearing!! That said, if you dont kill all the ememies around his warp point...then you just lost a fuck-load of exp. Thus defeating the purpose of the bk ever appearing.

5. if a laguz, such as scrimir's gauge depletes all the way...well...he's pretty much boned.

Don't worry, the exp the BK kills is translated into BEXP.

[Killer Poleax]

I also hate the desert chapter. It forces me to use a lot of characters that I don't like or don't care about and most of them aren't at high levels. The only characters I actually like who are good on that chapter are Haar, Jill, Marcia, and Calill. Plus, you're basically forced to use Naesala if you want to clear the chapter fast (I don't like using broken units cause they take away all the fun and challenge).

[Lord Raven]

Don't worry, the exp the BK kills is translated into BEXP.

I don't think he even gets EXP to be translated into BEXP in the first place.

[Florete]

Now, I haven't played RD at all, but from what I know Micaiah is less durable than even Leonardo and Eddie (concretely, that is). And those are the units with bad bad bad durability...not even talking about more tanklike units such as Nolan, Aran, or kicking it even higher, Volug, Nailah, Burger King. While her offense is decent, she can really only use it once per turn, due to being an enemy phase liability. Kind of like a Sniper.

Edward's durability isn't good, but it's underrated. He can dodge often enough and can usually take a couple hits before death. Leonardo is an archer and his durability does fail. Volug's durability is only good because of his massive HP, but he takes a lot of damage, and Nailah and BK are only available for two maps each. It's not a very durable team.

Eirika, however, I believe is vastly underrated as a unit. On Ephraim route, sure, all she has is earlygame and endgame, but on Eirika route, she is useful. Far above average. Support list giving her a bunch of Atk and Def, Rapier (and 80 uses of it), and fast enough to double Mercs/Myrms after a while, something even God tiers have trouble with. And endgame, she is like any other unit with a legendary weapon, and it's personal. Pretty much no reason not to use her there.

Then perhaps Eir. Eirika > Micaiah > Eph. Eirika. I don't agree with it, but w/e.

No, Pent is the one mage that everyone needs to be like. But they can't. They won't always suck, but it says a lot about what a Mage can't do if Pent can do it.

I don't know what the point of this is.

So? You get a lot of Gold in FE8 that it doesn't even matter. There's no ranks so sell away! The heavier weapons also lower her evade negligibly because her speed is damn high anyway.

You argued that swords are cheaper than Light magic, I countered by saying Micaiah's weapons effectively cost nothing. Heavier weapons still lower Eirika's avoid and will occasionally prevent her from doubling. Not to often, but it happens.

She does, actually. about 22 attack x2 at base level is pretty good.

Did you miss the WTD part? Don't forget that Knights also happen to have good defense and Cavaliers tend to be high on HP.

I haven't played FE8 for a while but I swear to God this isn't right.

I'll pull it up quickly.

Chapter 1: At the start there are 3 fighters, 3 soldiers, and the boss, a Knight. At turn 3 arrives 2 fighters and a soldier. Ok, I was off, but there are still just as many lance users as axe users.

He's also the best candidate to kill every enemy there. But you're not going to do that, are you?

Nope, but bosses are stronger than regular enemies. Point is, she isn't the best candidate for the boss, especially because of WTD.

Outperforming in offense.

Only offense isn't an accurate comparison.

Ephraim route Eirika is still doing better than Neimi because Eirika's offense still leads and she's still doing better.

Eirika isn't around for most of it. By the time she comes back she's level 15 and Neimi could easily be promoted already. How is that better?

Except I'm not judging the entire character, I'm judging one aspect of their character. You're missing the point.

Then it's not a fully accurate comparison. You're missing my point.

And she's still not going to be one rounding the dragons.

(I'm judging on Normal mode then jacking them proportional to the 2/3 of HM I've played, since I'm too lazy to finish too).

Almost no one is one-rounding the dragons. Archsages are, some strong axe users might be, but Micaiah is still doing great damage to Red Dragons and decent damage to White.

So can Mist.

Then there's Physic, Ashera Staff, Matrona, and the ever-friendly Mend. Still plenty of uses for Micaiah. Plus, Mist might be taking care of some spirits with swords.

Sacrifice fails. Sothe support is okay.

Part IV being where things get easy doesn't excuse anything. If she's not helping the team much, she's not helping the team much; no excuses.

Sacrifice can be a lifesaver and it's great for milking some extra experience. Auto A support for +15 avoid and +2 attack with the character who is now the best on your team and a required unit is pretty sweet. She's not helping your team as much because it's easier. She's still helping, just not as much because her abilities aren't as valued anymore. She shines in the toughest parts of the game, and that is a good thing.

Eirika's not as good as one thirds of the game. And you've yet to fully refute this.

She's just as useful when it counts. She's frail as all fuck in Part I (which is still harder than Part III) and can't heal. And has a weak offense because it's player phase only.

I don't want to do 18 debates to find out who is better/worse than Eirika.

Sacrifice is not to be completely ignored. Her offense is good, not great, because she does massive damage on her phase. Considering the fact she can usually take one hit, she might even see enemy phase action for luring in ranged fighters.

At the beginning you just have... Seth and Franz. And Vanessa, who has WTD for a while anyway. Eirika's pretty much with the pack as you start out, and her only real lagging time is before chapter 16 - don't forget, she has a ton of good supports to make use of as well.

Gilliam is much more durable. Garcia is better offensively. Neimi and Ross have decent ranged abilites. Vanessa has flier utility. Eirika's supports aren't even guaranteed, especially if you go Ephraim's route. Micaiah has the most guaranteed support in her game.

Cross game tier list isn't relevant. Relative position in the tier list is. being bottom of high in your game. > Being bottom or middle of mid in your game

Whatever. Micaiah is still at the top of upper mid. Eir. Eirika is around the middle of high and Eph. Eirika is mid-mid. That puts Micaiah near the same level as Eir. Eirika and higher than Eph. Eirika for sure.

I'd rather not. If anyone else wants to jump in feel free, because the open field is where the real debating occurs.

We're not even on topic, though, if you hadn't noticed. It's still a serious discussion, but one better suited where this is meant to take place.

Although, a good number of the judges haven't even played FE10. That throws a wrench in things.

[Liz]

taking the wheel of the car and making a u-turn back into topic, my least favorite part would have to be part 4.

while i loved the idea of splitting the team and such gameplaywise, certain characters hardly ever interacted with each other storywise. not that it really matters, i still loved that part. its just my least favorite.

[dondon151]

I'm actually liking part 4, because it forces me to use units that I had formerly neglected in order to complete chapters efficiently. It's a little frustrating when it takes three units to kill one enemy unit or your units get 3-rounded consistently, but I enjoy the challenge.

[Ragnell]

I thought Part 4 was the second best. It had a really cool mood, and I separated out my units so that I had good units in each party.

My least favorite was Part 2. It was slightly boring, short, and didn't have many units that I use in the endgame, so I had to solo everything with either Kieran or Nephenee. And you didn't get to use the same units consistently. One chapter you controlled Elincia and Marcia, the next Brom and Neph, and the next had laguz, Brom/Neph, and Lucia. Then the next had the royal knights. It was ok, just my least favorite.

[Lord Raven]

I'm getting lazy, we're coming to somewhat of a consensus here (Ephraim/Eirika is not quite as good as Eirika/Eirika which is something we can all agree on) but I hardly see Eirika/Eirika as worse than Micaiah. Only proportionally worse at best, but if you can handle your own game, you're better than someone who has a hard time handling her own game even if proportions are different between the two; something I adhere to.

Also, to be somewhat on topic: did anyone see any point in Part II? Notably plot wise. I'd be happy to hear any reasons why... Something tells me that there would still be Crimean involvement in the war even without Part II happening because they were treading on Crimean borders in that battle, but is it just to see the state of Crimea or what? Because plot-wise, Part II is really close to Part IV as least favorite.

Only countering Micaiah/Eirika relevant points now. Including comparisons and such... so the entire Pent thing I no longer care about because I can't get that point across (the main point was "why is Micaiah in the backlines? Maybe it's because she's FRAIL not entirely because she's a mage that can attack from a distance.")

You argued that swords are cheaper than Light magic, I countered by saying Micaiah's weapons effectively cost nothing. Heavier weapons still lower Eirika's avoid and will occasionally prevent her from doubling. Not to often, but it happens.

It never happens. Give me an instance it will aside from giving Eirika a Steel Sword at the very beginning (where she has a Rapier anyway).

Did you miss the WTD part? Don't forget that Knights also happen to have good defense and Cavaliers tend to be high on HP.

22 x2 is still a lot of damage early on, subject to increase.

Chapter 1: At the start there are 3 fighters, 3 soldiers, and the boss, a Knight. At turn 3 arrives 2 fighters and a soldier. Ok, I was off, but there are still just as many lance users as axe users.

So she can handle the axe users fine. Franz and Gilliam can take care of the Lancers while Franz helps out with the Axe users.

Nope, but bosses are stronger than regular enemies. Point is, she isn't the best candidate for the boss, especially because of WTD.

And...? The Boss still gets killed pretty easily by Eirika. With Seth you'd have to waste uses of a Silver Lance + about a level up's worth of EXP that can EASILY go to Eirika.

Only offense isn't an accurate comparison.

Then it's not a fully accurate comparison. You're missing my point.

I guess you're missing the point where I'm comparing Eirika's job, offense, to everyone else who has a job in offense (ie, everyone in the entire game at some point or another) in just the role of an offensive unit. I'm not comparing quality (Moulder wins here) as a whole, I'm comparing quality of offense. Where Moulder loses.

Almost no one is one-rounding the dragons. Archsages are, some strong axe users might be, but Micaiah is still doing great damage to Red Dragons and decent damage to White.

She's not doing decent damage to white dragons at all.

Then there's Physic, Ashera Staff, Matrona, and the ever-friendly Mend. Still plenty of uses for Micaiah. Plus, Mist might be taking care of some spirits with swords.

Matrona implies you managed to get her to SS in staves by then.

There's an Ashera Staff in this game?

Sacrifice can be a lifesaver and it's great for milking some extra experience. Auto A support for +15 avoid and +2 attack with the character who is now the best on your team and a required unit is pretty sweet. She's not helping your team as much because it's easier. She's still helping, just not as much because her abilities aren't as valued anymore. She shines in the toughest parts of the game, and that is a good thing.

She doesn't "shine" in the toughest parts of the game. I prefer to use her when she's really low maintenance in the latter parts of the game as opposed to really high maintenance in the earlier parts of the game. Can't say the same about Eirika can you, where she's consistently a low maintenance character.

Sacrifice is not to be completely ignored. Her offense is good, not great, because she does massive damage on her phase. Considering the fact she can usually take one hit, she might even see enemy phase action for luring in ranged fighters.

... uh...

The only reason she has for seeing enemy phase action is if you put her in a pile of mages or if you screw up in defending her.

Gilliam is much more durable. Garcia is better offensively. Neimi and Ross have decent ranged abilites. Vanessa has flier utility. Eirika's supports aren't even guaranteed, especially if you go Ephraim's route. Micaiah has the most guaranteed support in her game.

Neimi's range capabilities are not "decent," she doesn't do that much damage and doesn't double for like five levels.

Garcia can't double. Eirika can, and they end up doing more or less the same damage as a result.

Ross isn't doubling either, and his ranged capabilities aren't completely reliable due to accuracy. He's also getting doubled by certain enemies, while I'm at it.

Vanessa's performance in Chapter 2 sucks, that's what I was getting at. From there on, after a slight bit of help, Vanessa is indeed > Eirika. Especially with an Anima support triangle.

Edited December 8, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Saaji]

Indeed... Part 2 really jumped around too much for how short it was it might as well been just skipped completely... unit wise it has a good number of unit that I like but my favorites.

Also the unit balance is the weakest. Considering that half of the charactetrs start too strong to gain more then a few levels lest your focus solely on them but when most of em' join they suffer being a bit under level...or there base stats just dont compare when they return.

Edited December 8, 2008 by Saaji

[Killer Poleax]

Also, to be somewhat on topic: did anyone see any point in Part II? Notably plot wise. I'd be happy to hear any reasons why... Something tells me that there would still be Crimean involvement in the war even without Part II happening because they were treading on Crimean borders in that battle, but is it just to see the state of Crimea or what? Because plot-wise, Part II is really close to Part IV as least favorite.

Yeah, there was no point to part 2. It's only 5 chapters and it's so random and you can't even properly equip your characters until 2-3. And none of the characters gain a significant amount of exp for killing so many enemies cause they face a lot of unpromoted enemies. If it weren't for bexp and paragon, a lot of these units would be useless in endgame.

[Florete]

It never happens. Give me an instance it will aside from giving Eirika a Steel Sword at the very beginning (where she has a Rapier anyway).

You're the one that mentioned giving her heavier weapons. Are you denying that now? Her Con is never very good.

22 x2 is still a lot of damage early on, subject to increase.

Enemies have defense. Eirika has WTD. She may kill easily, but she's also killed easily.

And...? The Boss still gets killed pretty easily by Eirika. With Seth you'd have to waste uses of a Silver Lance + about a level up's worth of EXP that can EASILY go to Eirika.

And Eirika gets killed even easier by the boss. He can two-round her, where she's 3 rounding him at best on account of the fact she easily misses.

I guess you're missing the point where I'm comparing Eirika's job, offense, to everyone else who has a job in offense (ie, everyone in the entire game at some point or another) in just the role of an offensive unit. I'm not comparing quality (Moulder wins here) as a whole, I'm comparing quality of offense. Where Moulder loses.

You say this, yet you also have mentioned tier lists. Tiers aren't based on offense alone. Units aren't judged on offense alone. BY the time Moulder promoted, he's better than her offensively anyway.

She's not doing decent damage to white dragons at all.

Yes she is. Not amazing, but decent.

Matrona implies you managed to get her to SS in staves by then.

There's an Ashera Staff in this game?

And why shouldn't she be?

Yes, there is. Lehran comes with it.

She doesn't "shine" in the toughest parts of the game. I prefer to use her when she's really low maintenance in the latter parts of the game as opposed to really high maintenance in the earlier parts of the game. Can't say the same about Eirika can you, where she's consistently a low maintenance character.

It would be pointless to re-describe how she helps in part 1. And Eirika is almost always the frailest unit on your team anyway. Low defenses and a sword lock. Good speed, but lances and swords can still hit her fairly often. Oh, and no ranged option.

... uh...

The only reason she has for seeing enemy phase action is if you put her in a pile of mages or if you screw up in defending her.

Anyone can calculate the damage one enemy will do and put Micaiah in that range knowing it won't kill her.

Neimi's range capabilities are not "decent," she doesn't do that much damage and doesn't double for like five levels.

Garcia can't double. Eirika can, and they end up doing more or less the same damage as a result.

Ross isn't doubling either, and his ranged capabilities aren't completely reliable due to accuracy. He's also getting doubled by certain enemies, while I'm at it.

Vanessa's performance in Chapter 2 sucks, that's what I was getting at. From there on, after a slight bit of help, Vanessa is indeed > Eirika. Especially with an Anima support triangle.

Neimi can get an automatic support with Colm, boosting her offensive capabilities and his.

Garcia is more durable and doing the same amount of damage in one hit > two hits.

Ross grows uber fast. He gets 30+ experience just for hitting.

Vanessa is all that is saving Ross and that village.

Edited December 8, 2008 by Red Fox of Fire

[Lord Raven]

You're the one that mentioned giving her heavier weapons. Are you denying that now? Her Con is never very good.

Chapter 1-2. Steel Sword weighs her down. Everyone else's offense isn't that much greater if it's greater at all unless your name is Seth, so the Steel Sword's boost in might is negligible. Her speed picks up later, and then she can afford heavier weapons.

Enemies have defense. Eirika has WTD. She may kill easily, but she's also killed easily.

And Micaiah isn't?

Cavaliers don't even show up for a while. When they show up Eirika's durability is decent enough to allow her to get out of the situation decent, and her supports are built up by this time as well. The rest of the knights are random enemies and bosses, which shouldn't be too hard for her.

You say this, yet you also have mentioned tier lists. Tiers aren't based on offense alone. Units aren't judged on offense alone. BY the time Moulder promoted, he's better than her offensively anyway.

Being better at offense for 2/3 of the game > better better for 1/3 of the game. Eirika's offense is clearly superior.

Tier list was arguing the overall quality, the original argument (from you) was that a million other people did better than Eirika in offense.

Yes she is. Not amazing, but decent.

God damn I'm too lazy to get the actual numbers. I see Micaiah's promotion being something like 15/15/1 while being lenient on the second 15.

And why shouldn't she be?

To get from a C to an SS in the span of five chapters requires heavy, heavy abuse and heavy, heavy use of Arms Scrolls.

Yes, there is. Lehran comes with it.

And a Fortify staff isn't already helping you because...?

It would be pointless to re-describe how she helps in part 1.

Yes, it would. Because her main use, as far as I'm aware, is using Thani to one shot enemy mounts and armors. Her damage with the Thani tome is probably a two round, even though she's restricted to the player phase for attacking anyway.

Sacrifice? She heals 14 HP with it. On average she gets another HP point at Level... 4. So now she heals 15. The most she'll ever be healing is 21 with Sacrifice, and she's still dead in another hit if you go full way. And she's very close to death even if you go part of the way.

And Eirika is almost always the frailest unit on your team anyway.

If you decide to rule characters like Vanessa (heavily bow weak, heavily axe user weak and you'll be seeing axe users for a little while if my memory serves me correctly), Moulder, Ross, Natasha, and Lute then sure.

Low defenses and a sword lock. Good speed, but lances and swords can still hit her fairly often. Oh, and no ranged option.

Swords can't hit her fairly often, and they're not even doing that much damage despite the low/average defenses. Oh come on, she does have supports.

No ranged option is only a minor strike against her overall. Micaiah has no real melee option unless she's up against an archer, because she gets raped at melee range.

Anyone can calculate the damage one enemy will do and put Micaiah in that range knowing it won't kill her.

Same goes for Eirika? Eirika can probably do more on the enemy phase than Micaiah can, overall.

Neimi can get an automatic support with Colm, boosting her offensive capabilities and his.

And? She's still not doubling and Bows have just as much might as Swords.

Garcia is more durable and doing the same amount of damage in one hit > two hits.

I'm pretty sure that Garcia, at best, has a negligible lead. Eirika ends up evading more (the chapter he arrives in is primarily dominated by Axe users) and hell, Garcia's 20% Speed means he can't reliably double as you go along. In select cases against armors, but not against common enemies.

Ross grows uber fast. He gets 30+ experience just for hitting.

I dunno about you but in order to get Ross to Level 10 by Joshua's chapter I had to give him some pretty specialized attention.

Vanessa is all that is saving Ross and that village.

But she sucks against the Brigands. This doesn't matter anyway, since I clearly stated that Vanessa > Eirika afterwards.

[Florete]

Chapter 1-2. Steel Sword weighs her down. Everyone else's offense isn't that much greater if it's greater at all unless your name is Seth, so the Steel Sword's boost in might is negligible. Her speed picks up later, and then she can afford heavier weapons.

I don't see how it's really helping her. She's still fairly weak, and other character are still better at wielding heavy weapons.

And Micaiah isn't?

Cavaliers don't even show up for a while. When they show up Eirika's durability is decent enough to allow her to get out of the situation decent, and her supports are built up by this time as well. The rest of the knights are random enemies and bosses, which shouldn't be too hard for her.

If she's attacked, which, unlike Eirika, she doesn't have to be, for the millionth time.

Knights hit her hard and neither class dies so easily since they have lances.

Being better at offense for 2/3 of the game > better better for 1/3 of the game. Eirika's offense is clearly superior.

Tier list was arguing the overall quality, the original argument (from you) was that a million other people did better than Eirika in offense.

My original argument was who is better, not who is better offensively.

God damn I'm too lazy to get the actual numbers. I see Micaiah's promotion being something like 15/15/1 while being lenient on the second 15.

Lolwut? Getting Micaiah to level 20 by the end of part 1 is hella easy in Easy, Normal, or Hard mode. Then she has Paragon access in part 3 and 4 + staves to get her to 20 again. And how the hell is she still level 1 after two freaking maps?

To get from a C to an SS in the span of five chapters requires heavy, heavy abuse and heavy, heavy use of Arms Scrolls.

Considering you'll be using staves a lot and you have Discipline, that's hardly an issue.

And a Fortify staff isn't already helping you because...?

It is, when did I say it isn't? Micaiah can use that too.

Yes, it would. Because her main use, as far as I'm aware, is using Thani to one shot enemy mounts and armors. Her damage with the Thani tome is probably a two round, even though she's restricted to the player phase for attacking anyway.

Sacrifice? She heals 14 HP with it. On average she gets another HP point at Level... 4. So now she heals 15. The most she'll ever be healing is 21 with Sacrifice, and she's still dead in another hit if you go full way. And she's very close to death even if you go part of the way.

That's still pretty good. One-shotting enemies is a pretty good deal.

Scenario: Nolan can one-round that soldier with a double attack. Problem: Nolan is low on HP, so if he takes the counter, he's dead. Solution: Micaiah uses Sacrifice. Now Nolan can safely kill. If Laura is nearby, she can heal Micaiah. And hey, what if Micaiah could have one-shotted that Soldier? Instead, Nolan got that experience and Micaiah still got 10 experience. Everyone wins.

If you decide to rule characters like Vanessa (heavily bow weak, heavily axe user weak and you'll be seeing axe users for a little while if my memory serves me correctly), Moulder, Ross, Natasha, and Lute then sure.

Moulder, Natasha, Ross, and Lute aren't seeing enemy attacks nearly as often. Vanessa is arguable since she still has access to Javelins.

Swords can't hit her fairly often, and they're not even doing that much damage despite the low/average defenses. Oh come on, she does have supports.

No ranged option is only a minor strike against her overall. Micaiah has no real melee option unless she's up against an archer, because she gets raped at melee range.

They can in the early chapters, which is where she might actually be performing at the same level of her team.

Range > Melee when you're frail, which both are compared to the rest of their team. Micaiah can one-shot often anyway, so she usually won't see a counter attack.

Same goes for Eirika? Eirika can probably do more on the enemy phase than Micaiah can, overall.

She can, but that's because it's her only option.

And? She's still not doubling and Bows have just as much might as Swords.

She doubles within 1-2 levels and doesn't have to eat counter attacks. She's also powering another member of the team.

I'm pretty sure that Garcia, at best, has a negligible lead. Eirika ends up evading more (the chapter he arrives in is primarily dominated by Axe users) and hell, Garcia's 20% Speed means he can't reliably double as you go along. In select cases against armors, but not against common enemies.

Garcia is more durable and has good ranged options and pretty great supports. Garcia > Eirika.

I dunno about you but in order to get Ross to Level 10 by Joshua's chapter I had to give him some pretty specialized attention.

True enough.

But she sucks against the Brigands. This doesn't matter anyway, since I clearly stated that Vanessa > Eirika afterwards.

Alrighty then.

By the way, I'm done here. This is obviously getting nowhere.

[Lord Raven]

I don't see how it's really helping her. She's still fairly weak, and other character are still better at wielding heavy weapons.

It helps her a lot... other characters being better at it is irrelevant etc but her speed is still quite a bit ahead even with heavier weapons.

If she's attacked, which, unlike Eirika, she doesn't have to be, for the millionth time.

"She doesn't have to be" sounds like a huge copout for her lack of defense and evade.

Knights hit her hard and neither class dies so easily since they have lances.

Cavaliers can die pretty easily, Knights might require two rounds. It's still better than all your other physical units and Rapier drains less AS than Armorslayer.

My original argument was who is better, not who is better offensively.

Nope, you said "who was better at her job," which deals with offense.

Lolwut? Getting Micaiah to level 20 by the end of part 1 is hella easy in Easy, Normal, or Hard mode. Then she has Paragon access in part 3 and 4 + staves to get her to 20 again. And how the hell is she still level 1 after two freaking maps?

Level 20 in Hard Mode? Unless you give her a lot of specialized attention, it's hard to get. I barely got her to Level 20 when I played WITH specialized attention; seriously you gain like 15 EXP per kill in hard mode.

The second 20 is tough to get without specialized attention because she's got all of... four chapters... Chapter 6 is where she's too busy healing (12 EXP per mend staff, which means it takes like 9 turns to get a level up). Chapter 12 has her too busy healing with a Physic or a Mend although she can fit an occasional attack... which I don't entirely doubt; only somewhat. Chapter 13 doesn't really let her attack so all she can do is Physic, Sleep, or Purge... I think I'm missing a DB chapter in there somewhere, but I don't think she has that much of a chance to get levels. Level 10 at best after all this, and I'm being pretty lenient; the kill EXP in FE10 isn't hot.

Part IV, she'll be focused more on healing than attack. DEFINITELY... she's too frail. She can still probably fit an occasional (god damn how the fuck do you spell this word) but she'll be, once again, focused on healing or getting to Stefan's spot. Being lenient again, Level 15 after this chapter.

So 15/15/1 makes sense by her promotion time.

Considering you'll be using staves a lot and you have Discipline, that's hardly an issue.

How fast does staff EXP grow iunno? Matrona is somewhat useless of a staff after you get fortifies or physics anyway, but it gives you a level up so...

That's still pretty good. One-shotting enemies is a pretty good deal.

Micaiah has a hard time doing that after Part I, once again. Weakener at best, but other mages can one round (Callil) pretty easily because of their doubling capabilities.

During Part I she's the only candidate. But they're not very high in number to begin with (cavalier classes at least), at least not until Chapter 10 or 6-2. 6-1 has a few here and there too. (7 has none, I'm sure 8 has one or two, 9 is a shitty chapter lol)

Scenario: Nolan can one-round that soldier with a double attack. Problem: Nolan is low on HP, so if he takes the counter, he's dead. Solution: Micaiah uses Sacrifice. Now Nolan can safely kill. If Laura is nearby, she can heal Micaiah. And hey, what if Micaiah could have one-shotted that Soldier? Instead, Nolan got that experience and Micaiah still got 10 experience. Everyone wins.

Situational scenario. That doesn't apply to every single instance that ever happens in FE10 ever.

Moulder, Natasha, Ross, and Lute aren't seeing enemy attacks nearly as often. Vanessa is arguable since she still has access to Javelins.

Lute can dodge here and there, Ross can't until he promotes once and gets a few levels in that promotion. Ross' best weapons are in melee anyway, and a Hand Axe takes two off his AS (four before promotion) - which is already low to begin with. The Hatchet doesn't do much damage anyway, at least it starts to lag (it breaks eventually, despite 50 uses or so) so he pretty much relies on Iron Axes after his first promotion.

Vanessa... is irrelevant now. Considering we agree she's better than Eirika.

They can in the early chapters, which is where she might actually be performing at the same level of her team.

She performs on more or less the same level as her team until they all promote, which is at like Chapter 12 or 13. And once she promotes, she doesn't have a hard time catching up.

Range > Melee when you're frail, which both are compared to the rest of their team. Micaiah can one-shot often anyway, so she usually won't see a counter attack.

On the enemy phase, Melee > Range considering how 70% of the enemies attack from melee on enemy phase anyway.

Micaiah can one shot? Aside from Armors and Mounts, what the hell kind of parallel universe do you live in?

She can, but that's because it's her only option.

And...?

She doubles within 1-2 levels and doesn't have to eat counter attacks. She's also powering another member of the team.

1-2 levels is just an increase of Speed to 7. This isn't doubling, sir.

Garcia is more durable and has good ranged options and pretty great supports. Garcia > Eirika.

Garcia has NO speed, lol. He can't double, which is a detriment to his entire offense. On top of that Garcia eats a lot more enemy attacks than Eirika does because of his lack of evade and Eirika's damage still tends to be even with his due to her ability to double.

By the way, I'm done here. This is obviously getting nowhere.

Clearly you don't know me Edited December 8, 2008 by Nathan Graves

[Florete]

Clearly you don't know me

I suppose not. I would've just been forced to say the exact same things over again anyway. We'll have to call it a draw.

[Paper Jam]

I'm probably reaching a bit far for reasons behind part 2, since quite a few people don't see any point to it. Still, here are my ideas.

Part 1 ended with Pelleas' coronation, so I guess it might be natural to shift over to Crimea and see their response to Daein's reconstruction, particularly in light how how closely Pelleas resembles Elincia and Micaiah resembles Ike.

The most important part of Part 2, I believe, was Ike's entrance at the end. Imagine how many cutscenes would be necessary to set that up without any chapters in between...

Actually, scratch that. The conversation between Ike and Elincia was probably more important, since it set the stage for Part 3.

[Lord Raven]

The appearance of the Mercs was pretty much the only thing that it had going for it; I had thought of that, admittedly.

At any rate, I'll look into Ike/Elincia's conversation a bit more. Part 2 seemed to be more like a "let's see how Crimea is doing after FE9!" type thing as I think about it more, which isn't totally relevant but it does give us more desired info on the continent.

[Saint Nightroad]

Part One. The whole game is almost trash because the hardest part of the game (by far) is the first one. I'm sorry, but that just should not happen.

Looks under your avatar.

I'm sorry, but you don't know what a trash game is.

Ironically, I love the Dawn Brigade chapters. Yes, they are the most challenging, but thats what makes them fun. Geoffery's group isn't diverse enough, Ike's group is to broken....

The only thing I don't like is protecting useless Micaiah....... I think she is adorable (not half as adorable as Mist), but I just don't like her stats. Oh and 1-3 is one of my least favorite levels in the game.... if it weren't for those useless yellow guys and the fact that if ANYONE dies its Game Over... it might not be so bad.

[The Envoy of the Beginning]

Oh and 1-3 is one of my least favorite levels in the game.... if it weren't for those useless yellow guys and the fact that if ANYONE dies its Game Over... it might not be so bad.

I feel you on that one. It's the hardest in the game (or possibly in the whole series). At least the enemy commander on that chapter has no leadership stars or it would be hell.