How many units are needed for a viable weapon type (and how many potential Brawlers do we have in the series?)

[Jotari]

So if Balthus was the death nail in the coffin of seeing gauntlet users in Heroes, Legendary Alear is burying that coffin of hope entirely. As @Ice Dragonis quick to point out every time subject comes up, the series quite simply doesn't have enough Gauntlet users to have a weapon type. And while I'm sure that's the logic IS is working under, personally, I just don't agree with it. Much like how we could have a Warriors CYL category with just six characters to choose from, I think we could have a weapon type with only a single user. Why not? What requirement is there for a set number of units, and how high is that requirement? And how many gauntlet users could we pull from the series if it were a thing? Let's count the number of units that come in a class that uses their fists (or in 3H case, has a proficiency in it).

1.Fomortiis

2.Caspar

3.Dedue

4.Felix

5.Raphael

6.Catherine

7.Alois

8.Balthus

9.Jeritza

10.Male Byleth

11.Female Byleth

12. Goneril

13. Count Bergliez

14.Rhea

15. Framme

16.Jean

17.Sean

18.Hyacinth

19. Pandero

20.Seadall

21. Male Alear

22. Female Alear

Alright, so 22. But there are some quite unrealistic options in there, at least for base incarnations. No way would they have given us Catherine without Thunderbrand. And no way would they give us the character on Goneril at all, as it would create an expectation to have all of the Elites (who all have generic designs). Jeritza is also definitely not a brawler, being a solid cavalry unit with his own personal scythe. Rhea is also going to get breath status first (and still doesn't even use her personal sword) so it'd be a few alts down before she gets gauntlets. Felix also has his own personal sword, but for him I actually feel like we could get away with it, mainly because his shield is more important and they've already put him in the game and ignored his personal sword. So I would say there are 18 viable Brawling candidates as of 2023. Some of these units brawling is not the most suitable weapon for, with all their talk of being Doctors staffs would better suit Sean and Jean, and it's likely one Byleth would get brawling while the other would get magic. But overall I think 18 potential units, before seasonal alts and Heroes OCs, is a decent enough number. Of course none of these characters existed when Heroes first came out, and when Three Houses came out Engage wasn't finished development so they likely wouldn't have known Brawling would continue to be a thing. But with the power of hindsight, I think Brawl could absolutely have been a thing. For a comparison, I count only 32 viable beast units (20 playable Radiant Dawn characters+Soan+Fallen Muraim+6 Fateswakening characters+Dedue+Edelgard+Miklan+Fomortiis) and they need to be split among four colours. There are also some other less likely beast units, mostly Tellius bosses (Seeker, Pain, Agony, Kezhda, Lotz (anyone remember who he is without looking it up?), Lillia and the Heron King if we're really stretching things, Monica's father), but even counting all of them it doesn't put the number of beast units at four times the amount, which they'd need to be to represent the four colours as thoroughly as gauntlets could represent a single colour. A lot of the beast roster as been bolstered by the Heroes OCs. Though one could argue that beasts are more important to bolster (since unlike the gauntlet users the Laguz and beast units can't be easily retooled to use other weapons) and gauntlets are unviable because the OCs are already bolstering the beast numbers, and it would be a bit on the nose if every single Heroes OC was either a beast or gauntlet user.

Edited September 4, 2023 by Jotari

[Florete]

Yeah, I strongly disagree that there aren't enough potential users for it to be a weapon type. Sure, there might not be many users now, but there are certainly enough to get started, and you can fill out slots with seasonals, legendaries, and new Heroes OCs, not too dissimilar to what's happened with beast units. You wouldn't even need four colors of gauntlets, I think most people, myself included, imagine gauntlets as colorless melee to round out the sword/lance/axe trio, as there currently isn't a generic colorless melee weapon (dragons do magic damage, beasts have transformation mechanics).

If anything I think that's more likely what has kept gauntlets from being a thing: they don't want to introduce a new weapon type with only one color, and they don't want any potential user of it to be stuck in that color. If you consider sword/lance/axe to all be under the same weapon umbrella more-or-less, staff is the only weapon type that is stuck to one color, and staff units were designed to be support-based. There is also no potential gauntlet user that needs to be a brawler, unlike the beast units.

[AnonymousSpeed]

52 minutes ago, Jotari said:

1.Fomortiis

Ravager OP baybee let's go.

Also, every laguz in FE10 is capable of throwing hands.

That said, if gauntlets were a colored weapon, there'd really be no mechanical reason (only flavor and a different icon) to have them be different than existing ones. If I recall correctly though, you've mentioned them being colorless.

[Jotari]

41 minutes ago, Florete said:

Yeah, I strongly disagree that there aren't enough potential users for it to be a weapon type. Sure, there might not be many users now, but there are certainly enough to get started, and you can fill out slots with seasonals, legendaries, and new Heroes OCs, not too dissimilar to what's happened with beast units. You wouldn't even need four colors of gauntlets, I think most people, myself included, imagine gauntlets as colorless melee to round out the sword/lance/axe trio, as there currently isn't a generic colorless melee weapon (dragons do magic damage, beasts have transformation mechanics).

Yeah, that's what I meant by making the comparison to beast units. I'm imagining gauntlets as colourless melee. And since they comitted to four coloured beast units, by all rationale logic the number of potential beast units should be four times the number of potential gauntlet users 

41 minutes ago, Florete said:

If anything I think that's more likely what has kept gauntlets from being a thing: they don't want to introduce a new weapon type with only one color, and they don't want any potential user of it to be stuck in that color. If you consider sword/lance/axe to all be under the same weapon umbrella more-or-less, staff is the only weapon type that is stuck to one color, and staff units were designed to be support-based. There is also no potential gauntlet user that needs to be a brawler, unlike the beast units.

Balthus is certainly the one that feels most likely he needs to be a gauntlet user. But artwork of him using an axe did exist in Three Houses, part of me thinks precisely so Heroes didn't have to commit to gauntlets. After him I feel like Leopold kind of needs to be a gauntlet user with his own personal gauntlets, but considering he's an npc old guy from Three Hopes, he probably won't get into the game at all.

It also makes me wonder what they'll give Seadall. He'll definitely get in the game being a dancer, bit it feels a bit weird if they'd just give him knives or magic considering those are things in his game already that he pointedly doesn't use. Maybe one of Emblem Corrin's weapons?

7 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Also, every laguz in FE10 is capable of throwing hands.

Well that gets into the ideas I expressed here.

 

Edited September 4, 2023 by Jotari

[Sunwoo]

43 minutes ago, Jotari said:

It also makes me wonder what they'll give Seadall. He'll definitely get in the game being a dancer, bit it feels a bit weird if they'd just give him knives or magic considering those are things in his game already that he pointedly doesn't use. Maybe one of Emblem Corrin's weapons?

They might give him daggers anyway, since that seems to be the go-to weapon for non-laguz dancers who didn't have a canon weapon in their own games (Tethys, Larum).

I've already stated my thoughts on gauntlets in previous other topics, so I won't repeat them again here. But I believe that Heroes could absolutely have enough units for gauntlets, especially between seasonal units and OCs.

[Ice Dragon]

My issue with gauntlets isn't that there aren't enough characters in the series to fill out a roster of them. It's that there aren't enough characters that are likely to make it into Heroes with that weapon type anytime in the next couple years, given that we realistically only get one new-character banner per game per year (plus one for newly released games). As you've mentioned, most of those characters are more associated with other weapon types, and also, a decent number of those characters are unplayable and would realistically only be released in Grand Hero Battles. The fact that units in Heroes are only capable of using a single weapon type without multiple versions of them released means that "can the character use gauntlets?" is not enough. You also have to weigh "can the character reasonably be released with a different weapon type?" and "will the character reasonably be released at all?"

In contrast, most beasts can't be transferred to a different weapon type, and you don't have to go fishing through the cast to find them. Additionally, there are a lot of high-profile characters with the weapon type, with the Laguz kings being notable from the Tellius games and Awakening and Fates having many of their playable characters being popular due to the dating sim elements. At some point or another, they would have been forced to release a beast weapon type, whereas the same can't (yet) be said of gauntlets.

 

I also don't think using Special Heroes to bolster the roster supports the argument at all. Yes, doing so increases the number of characters that can use the weapon type, but that raises the question of why you're implementing the weapon type at all if you're forced to use seasonal characters to fill out the roster.

It's worth noting that even colorless tomes (which is the weapon type I consider to be the least needed to have been implemented in this game) are (barely) not even half full with seasonal characters, with only 10 of its 21 units being seasonal. The remainder is split between units in the standard summoning pool and non-seasonal premium units (Legendary, Mythic, and Rearmed Heroes). Colorless dragons and colorless tomes at least have the excuse that they're used as the "premium" color for their weapon type, and colored bows and daggers and colorless dragons at least share their inheritable weapon pools with the colors that were available at release (making their existence mostly harmless). Gauntlets have neither of these advantages going for them.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Sunwoo said:

They might give him daggers anyway, since that seems to be the go-to weapon for non-laguz dancers who didn't have a canon weapon in their own games (Tethys, Larum).

I've already stated my thoughts on gauntlets in previous other topics, so I won't repeat them again here. But I believe that Heroes could absolutely have enough units for gauntlets, especially between seasonal units and OCs.

Thing with Tethys and Larum though is that they're from a game without knives at all, while knives exist in Seadall's game. So it'd be more like Axe Narcian than Knife Larum.

[Sunwoo]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

Thing with Tethys and Larum though is that they're from a game without knives at all, while knives exist in Seadall's game. So it'd be more like Axe Narcian than Knife Larum.

I mean, they could still do that. They doubled down on making Faye an archer in her Valentine's alt, after already making her base version an archer when she can't use bows.

Alternatively, they just stick fist animations into every weapon type. So we get, like, SWORD FISTS and LANCE FISTS and AXE FISTS

[Humanoid]

One is plenty provided they don't make quests along the lines of "kill 10 units by punching them". And even then it might be fine if that one unit is handed out for free.

As long as they're treated the same as all other melee weapons, you don't even have the edge problems like deploying staff units in Pawns of Loki.

[Ice Dragon]

16 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Thing with Tethys and Larum though is that they're from a game without knives at all, while knives exist in Seadall's game. So it'd be more like Axe Narcian than Knife Larum.

Chad, Cath, Colm, Joshua, and Rennac also come from the same games that don't have knives at all, but they get knives because Heroes treats all sword-using thief-like classes as using knives for the purposes of consistency. Lalum and Tethys using knives is the equivalent of being considered a thief-like class, not the same as Narcian getting axes because dragon knights use axes in later games.

 

22 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Alternatively, they just stick fist animations into every weapon type. So we get, like, SWORD FISTS and LANCE FISTS and AXE FISTS

They wouldn't even need to do that much.

Animations are linked individually by unit rather than by weapon type (which is why different units of the same weapon type can have different animations), so they could just give any future gauntlet unit Legendary Alear's animation set, and it would just work. With any weapon type.

No unit in this game changes its animation set based on the equipped weapon skill, so I don't see any reason for them to change that if they do implement gauntlet weapons as other weapon types. A unit that uses Alear's animation set with an inheritable weapon would still punch the enemy, and because there is no attachment point for a weapon sprite, the inheritable weapon would just not be displayed.

[Jotari]

27 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

My issue with gauntlets isn't that there aren't enough characters in the series to fill out a roster of them. It's that there aren't enough characters that are likely to make it into Heroes with that weapon type anytime in the next couple years, given that we realistically only get one new-character banner per game per year (plus one for newly released games). As you've mentioned, most of those characters are more associated with other weapon types, and also, a decent number of those characters are unplayable and would realistically only be released in Grand Hero Battles. The fact that units in Heroes are only capable of using a single weapon type without multiple versions of them released means that "can the character use gauntlets?" is not enough. You also have to weigh "can the character reasonably be released with a different weapon type?" and "will the character reasonably be released at all?"

In contrast, most beasts can't be transferred to a different weapon type, and you don't have to go fishing through the cast to find them. Additionally, there are a lot of high-profile characters with the weapon type, with the Laguz kings being notable from the Tellius games and Awakening and Fates having many of their playable characters being popular due to the dating sim elements. At some point or another, they would have been forced to release a beast weapon type, whereas the same can't (yet) be said of gauntlets.

 

I also don't think using Special Heroes to bolster the roster supports the argument at all. Yes, doing so increases the number of characters that can use the weapon type, but that raises the question of why you're implementing the weapon type at all if you're forced to use seasonal characters to fill out the roster.

It's worth noting that even colorless tomes (which is the weapon type I consider to be the least needed to have been implemented in this game) are (barely) not even half full with seasonal characters, with only 10 of its 21 units being seasonal. The remainder is split between units in the standard summoning pool and non-seasonal premium units (Legendary, Mythic, and Rearmed Heroes). Colorless dragons and colorless tomes at least have the excuse that they're used as the "premium" color for their weapon type, and colored bows and daggers and colorless dragons at least share their inheritable weapon pools with the colors that were available at release (making their existence mostly harmless). Gauntlets have neither of these advantages going for them.

Well it's obviously not possible now. The perspective of are there enough characters to get into heroes in the next couple of years is an answered question. It'd be downright weird for it to happen after Alear now. But the question is could it have been done? To which the answer I think is, yeah, sure. If they'd had faith (or development foreknowledge) that they would be available in Engage. Without altering anything from banner history, Fomortiis, Dedue, Felixa, Balthus, Legendary Byleth and Legendary Alear have all gotten into the game and have been banner units. Six units Gauntlet units, I'd be fine with that. Throw Caspar instead of Linhardt as the demote on that one banner and it's seven. But even as I said in the OP, if Balthus and Seadall were literally the only gauntlets units in the game then fine. No issue with me.

As for most of them being Grand Hero Battles, I don't think that's strictly speaking true. Hayacinth and Leopold are the only ones that seems like they'd be Grand Hero Battle material. Leopold has certainly lost his chance to get into the game now that Three Hopes is old news, but maybe he would have if Gauntlets had been a thing. Sean almost certainly won't get into the game. Engage's cast is rather small but not so small that they'd be scraping that low in the barrel this side of 2030. But beyond that (and the aforementioned mentioned Goneril, who now that I look at it doesn't even use any gauntlets and is just in the War Master class) I expect to see all of those characters in the game within the next few years.

2 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

I mean, they could still do that. They doubled down on making Faye an archer in her Valentine's alt, after already making her base version an archer when she can't use bows.

Alternatively, they just stick fist animations into every weapon type. So we get, like, SWORD FISTS and LANCE FISTS and AXE FISTS

Thinking on it a little more, I could see them making Seadall and blue tome unit referencing the Ice Dragon vein he has by coming with Corrin equipped as default.

[Ice Dragon]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

But the question is could it have been done? To which the answer I think is, yeah, sure. If they'd had faith (or development foreknowledge) that they would be available in Engage. Without altering anything from banner history, Fomortiis, Dedue, Felixa, Balthus, Legendary Byleth and Legendary Alear have all gotten into the game and have been banner units. Six units Gauntlet units, I'd be fine with that.

None of the points I made are would be any different if this were asked before Dedue's banner when none of those units existed in Heroes yet.

You're operating under the premise that every character that has a reasonable enough chance of being made into a brawling unit would be made into a brawling unit, even if there are other weapons that are more likely for them to have. In addition to forcing units into the brawling weapon type, you'd also be looking at prioritizing the release of characters that could be made into brawling units over other characters just for the sake of having enough units to justify having the unit type.

Realistically, Fomortiis had no chance of being made into anything other than a beast unit. The Legendary Byleths also were unlikely to not have the Sword of the Creator. And my understanding is that Felix is encouraged to be used as a sword unit even with his strength in brawling. That basically just leaves Alear as actually having a brawling weapon, Balthus as likely having a brawling weapon, and Dedue as possibly having a brawling weapon in a world where the developers aren't obviously forcing units into the weapon type.

Could it have been done? Yes. Is there enough justification to actually do it? No.

 

Also add to my previous argument that brawler weapons don't make enough sense with the cavalry and flying movement types. Yes, they could make Heroes characters to fill those movement types, but why do that when beasts are generally more interesting as units?

 

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Leopold has certainly lost his chance to get into the game now that Three Hopes is old news, but maybe he would have if Gauntlets had been a thing.

In order for him to have gotten into the game already, he would have had to have replaced Holst's Grand Hero Battle. I can't say that sounds plausible.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

You're operating under the premise that every character that has a reasonable enough chance of being made into a brawling unit would be made into a brawling unit, even if there are other weapons that are more likely for them to have.

I am pointedly not working under than logic. I have said what other weapons those units could have and I have said that if there were literally just two Brawling units in the game it still could have been done and the justification would be "Because I'd prefer that". It was possible, it's not the path they went down, but it was possible and for my own personal preference, preferable.

6 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Chad, Cath, Colm, Joshua, and Rennac also come from the same games that don't have knives at all, but they get knives because Heroes treats all sword-using thief-like classes as using knives for the purposes of consistency. Lalum and Tethys using knives is the equivalent of being considered a thief-like class, not the same as Narcian getting axes because dragon knights use axes in later games.

Uh...yeah, that's exactly my point. Seadall is not in that situation because he is from a game where knives exist. Just like how Narcian is from a game where axes exist even if he can't use them. Maybe they could repurpose his Tarot Cards as a knife to make it not completely baseless though. Or take some inspiration from Tellius and use the cards as a magic attack.

Edited September 5, 2023 by Jotari