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    Aah! Maths!
  • Birthday 03/05/1992

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    Sacred Stones

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  1. Very useful guide. Would love to see more research, especially into battle EXP, but I'm sure that will be a much trickier nut to crack. I was beginning to suspect that support EXP didn't vary by difficulty - I've quickly noticed my highest level units on Maddening are all of my mages, who are already a solid 2-4 levels ahead of the rest of my team. Nice to see that confirmed.
  2. Just did a bit of testing to confirm, used my Maddening save which is in the week 17/11 to 22/11, and dropped down to test each difficulty in turn. I suggest looking at Catherine (Sword strength, Authority neutral) and Cyril (Reason weak, Authority neutral) for east comparison figures. Baseline figures Normal - Gains 24/28/32 for weak/neutral/strength respectively Hard - Gains 20/24/28 for weak/neutral/strength respectively Maddening - Gains 16/20/24 for weak/neutral/strength respectively So yeah, definitely difficulty based. It makes sense though - you gain WAY more skill EXP in battle in Maddening since enemies take more hits to kill and there are more enemies. Not to mention you gain normal EXP so much more slowly, so it's more fights before you can promote, meaning more time gaining EXP towards classes. Compensating for that by dropping the amount you get per week helps keep your skill EXP balanced. Only 4 per week per skill may not seem like a huge drop, but even assuming you're only training a main team of 10 characters, that's 80 EXP per week, often ~3 times per month - so about 240 skill EXP less per chapter, give or take. You probably earn about that much extra just from additional rounds of combat each chapter, so overall it probably balances out - but it's a pretty interesting way of doing it I feel. It also makes me wonder if using weekly goals as the main method to train weaknesses is still optimal on Maddening. On hard I always felt it was the right move, since you earn about 71% of the EXP you'd get from training a strength in the same, which is better than most other methods (e.g. for tutoring, even with statues active, you'd gain 4 EXP vs. 8, which is 50%; or in battle with no class bonuses, it's 1 EXP vs. 3, only 33%; even with max class bonus of +3 it's 4 vs. 6, 66%). Now it's down to about 66%, which is... still probably the best way overall, but there's definitely going to be cases where it's better to do other things to train weaknesses.
  3. With the release of Maddening difficulty I feel like this list may be worth revisiting. I'm currently playing through quite slowly, only up to chapter 6, so don't have a great feel for everything, but I do already feel that enemy phase performance is probably going to be more important on Maddening - enemies seem to die a lot more slowly, plus there are more enemies and same turn reinforcements, so being able to take hits and deal them back hard feels like it'll be more relevant. On top of that I feel like you can master classes more quickly, because more enemies + more rounds of combat to get kills = more chances to gain class EXP. Not sure how much impact that has on skills yet, but I do think things might shift a bit.
  4. No. It just gets mentioned as a battle that took place, and you get told the result. Then you move on to taking the fort afterwards.
  5. I absolutely don't think Soldier should move down. Reposition is incredibly powerful, I don't think it's any exaggeration to say it's the single most game changing class mastery ability, and it can be learned quickly. It's made even stronger than it was in Heroes due to things like Canto, which means you can easily use Reposition with little or no sacrifice to a units positioning. It doesn't have to be mastered immediately though - if one prefers they can get the Cethleanne statue bonus first and then switch back and finish mastering Solider. The "blind playthough" point I feel is not really valid - in a blind playthrough you don't know the value of mastering each class, you don't know the difference in growths etc. It's not really an environment where you can reasonably compare the value of mastering classes. And while yeah, the Intermediate classes do give slightly better stats, it's not really by much. Typically it's about 3-4 points of stats, and increased movement for many of them. The higher move is definitely the big thing you miss out on for the likely 1-2 extra maps it takes to master Soldier.
  6. I've made changes based on discussion here. Pegasus Knight High > Top Cavalier Upper Mid > Lower Mid Dark Mage Low > Lower Mid Paladin Upper Mid > Lower Mid Assassin Lower Mid > Low Foretress Knight Shadow Realm > Low Priest Lower Mid > Low Currently considering Thief down - I felt like I was missing a number of interesting stealable stuff, especially on my BE-E and BE-C runs. I'd like to repeat my question from before: Can you steal "legendary" type equipment, for example (BE-E spoilers): If you can't I'm definitely thinking Thief down to Upper Mid. I'm also thinking possibly of renaming some of these tiers, maybe splitting Low/Lower Mid into three tiers since they're pretty big right now.
  7. I believe it's +3 from the paralogue, +3 from chapter 10, and +1 per statue, for a total of 13. A pretty excessive amount but there you go.
  8. Some arts are learned as normal arts, and can be used in any class, e.g. Subdue, movement arts and Triangle Attack. Others such as Hunter's Volley, War Master's Strike, Astra etc. can only be used in the class that gives them, and they don't have to be equipped like a normal art - you just have access as a bonus 4th art.
  9. Lethality down is definitely something I don't really have an issue with. Activation rate is pretty bad, Assassinate is exclusive to the Assassin class - although Assassin is arguably the best sword focused class so there's that but Assassinate isn't great either anyway. I think I've seen one useful Lethality in my time playing, so dropping that down to low I think is fair.
  10. This is one specific example, and even then, I don't really see why it matters. Again, a 10% drop in speed growth is an average of 1 point lost every 10 levels. Heck, there's a 35% chance (regardless of growths) that you don't even lose ANY speed from reclassing to Paladin for 10 levels. 1 point of speed can make you miss some doubles, yeah. 1 point of strength can also make you miss some kills, 1 point of defence can make you unable to survive an enemy combination etc. It is really not a big deal. This isn't really a fair comparison, because Wyvern Rider is by far the best physical advanced class. It also has a completely different skill focus, needing Axe+Flying instead of Lance+Riding. I could say the same thing about Sniper, or Assassin, or really just about any other physical advanced class.
  11. You're correct. It was going to be lower mid, basically more useful than Pavise but from a more niche class. For some reason I must have failed when copying across from Excel. Yes, QR does, but I already talked about that. With Miracle, I suppose that's true. I can't say I think too much of Miracle, so low tier seems pretty reasonable. For some reason when I started making the list it was in upper mid. Then I started explaining that and was like "why the hell did I put this here" after writing one sentence. Hmm, I didn't know about that. That does seem like it's fairly significant. I think it's hard to judge for me since I've never actually mastered Dark Mage - when Mage is an option it's hard to justify, right? With Steal, several Master Seals before you can get the Secret Shop, a few Elixirs and various accessories. It's probably not THAT much, actually. Does anyone know if you can steal unique item accessories from bosses that have them, such as (ch. 12 Edelgard): If you can I think that justifies the placement on the list, even if it's something you only occasionally want to bring. If not, maybe I should move it down. Current movement considerations based on replies: Cavalier (Desperation) down to Lower Mid (think I agree, the skill is good in theory but I barely used it in my playthroughs) Priest (Miracle) down to Low (not certain about this one, think I agree) Pegasus Knight (Darting Blow/Triangle Attack) up to top (I'm 50/50 on this one still, I agree it's either top of high or bottom of top though) Dark Mage (Poison Strike) up to Lower Mid (I think I probably underrated because it's overshadowed by Mage, but I feel it's fairer to judge on its own merit) Adding the missing Fortress Knight (Pavise) to Lower Mid or Low. (Niche class, decent skill) Anyone has any additional thoughts on these? The -10% speed growth is massively overstated, honestly. It hurts a bit but really not much - if you're in Paladin for about 10 levels, you end up losing an average of 1 speed compared to a class with no speed penalty. Speed is the most important stat, but it isn't the only important stat. If you look at its other growths, they're decent, better than Sniper for instance - compared to Sniper you get 20% HP, 5% Str, 5% Def and 5% Res extra, while Sniper gets 15% Dex and 10% Spd. Overall I'd say those sets of growths are about equal honestly. Anyway, this isn't really relevant to the thread, but I do dislike people overblowing how important class growths are, and acting like the -10% spd growth Paladin has is a death knell when it's really just a minor inconvenience, a small price to pay for having 8 move in an Advanced Class for 10 levels. -20 hit for every space beyond 2 range, I believe the rest of the formula was stated above. This only applies to bows, magic doesn't care about range. No, for several reasons unfortunately. This took a while to write, combat arts are much more varied in where and when they're learned so it's harder to compare fairly, and honestly, they become less important beyond the early game to the point where even after three and a half playthroughs I feel like I've barely used half of them.
  12. Can't really say with Pegasus Knights, they are definitely an advanced class for enemies. It could be that they planned to have three tiers for pegasii, but then decided to drop down to just two, and did different things for enemy and player pegasii. Confusion from breaking a single barrier piece wears off after one attack or at the start of enemy phase, so they will still attack. Stunning from breaking all barriers wears off after the enemy phase, so they won't attack.
  13. I see a lot of people talking about which classes are worth mastering, is it worth mastering classes at all etc. and had the brilliant idea of making a psuedo tier list on how valuable classes are to master. This list is mostly just my views, backed up by experience playing the game on Hard/Classic, but feel free to disagree. I'm sure there's a lot of placements that could change. Since this is just for fun, and I don't have endless time I've decided not to rank within each tier, though if there's interest I suppose that could also be done. I wrote this to both inspire discussion, and be a psuedo guide to what classes are worth mastering - and to be a decent guide, it would definitely help to hear other opinions. Placement is based on two main factors: How valuable is it to master this class, and how viable is it to master this class. I play Hard Classic with no/minimal grinding (e.g. I would sometimes use Sundays for battles but wouldn't stand there grinding EXP with broken weapons), and while I used NG+ for a few playthroughs I'm going to ignore it for the sake of this list. In particular that means how long it takes to master a class matters - which is why the second factor above is there. Something like Quick Riposte might be very strong, but if you only have it for one chapter there isn't much you can do with it. As a result, the earlier a class can be mastered, the more value its mastery can provide, and similarly how useful a class is also has a small factor - if a class is bad, then diverging into it for a while to get its skill is a negative against the class, while if a class is good, that's not so much of a factor. But since this is focused mainly on the class mastery skills and not the classes themselves, how good classes are won't be a HUGE factor in general. Oh, and note that this does contain character unique classes. So without any further ado, here's my list: And more detailed, with explanations: And that's everything. Hope that this was either helpful or interesting.
  14. On top of what class they default to when joining, there is also looking at other things which indicate a natural class for them. I believe that when you are in the reclass/certification menus after the timeskip, their default outfit will match one classes outfit. Similarly you can see what classes they appear as when you face them as enemies, particularly when you face them for the final time. Either of these could be called their "canon" classes. I'm not sure if many of them differ, off the top of my head I think Cyril (Sniper vs Wyvern Lord) and Dorothea (Dancer vs Warlock) do.
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