BBM

first off i apologize for frustrating you. that wasn't my intention. but I'm going to be pushing you for at least a while so if you feel like i'm being a dick or something i'd rather you say that so I can try to rephrase, than just not interact with me. my definition of white knighting is scum defending town to look good after they get mislynched. i think that this is the case vs your other townreads because those townreads aren't being up for lynch. but more specifically i think it's white knighting because as far as I can tell you never actually responded to a case against athena at any point or actually tried to directly change peoples minds about him. you just said that he's new and that being defensive and opportunistic is NAI. i think it's scummy because it doesn't feel to me like you're actually trying to prevent his lynch or find which scum if any might be responsible for athena being a wagon considering you thought all the votes against him sucked, which leads to the next point- sure, obviously there are going to be scum on a large wagon. i agree with that statement. but it doesn't contribute anything to the game to say that in a 22p game which probably has 5-6 anti-town players, at least one out of 5 players are scum. you could take any random group of 5 people and have a good shot of that being the case. you're only contributing something to the game if you say who of those group of people you think is more or less likely to be scum. and i'm harping on it because I find that this is a particular form of fake content that scum often use, because it's easy to say and looks to be more helpful than it actually is. i also don't think i'm misrepresenting your content or telling you how you should play the game, and again i'm sorry if that's how it came off. i'm not looking for your thoughts on every player. but if you say "yeah i'm making a long post" I expect you to make a long post (or a bunch of short posts with that content in it). if you say "i have a few other scumreads" I expect you to talk about those scumreads. also yeah the new forum software (we call it "new" but it's been around for years now) sucks for playing mafia. have you tried using makaze's script? it's linked in the mafia hq I think. alternatively most of the people in this game don't really post outside the mafia forum, so you can go to their profile to see their latest activity

what do you think was particularly townie about that? i think people giving advice is generally pretty null because it's easy to fake for scum. it doesn't require scum to think like a townie to give a townie advice.

I also just think that pushing zeus is super easy it's basically like "oh look here's this person who doesn't know how to play mafia". i will say that your reasons for voting zeus are probably more developed because of the stuff about him being manipulative (which I don't agree it btw because of course he's going to ask not to be vigged when people say he should be vigged). but that being your main source of content doesn't impress me.

it's not that you promised to do one, it's that you SHOULD do one. you mentioned that you thought there was scum voting/suspecting athena. okay, so who is that scum? if you don't follow up on a statement like that, it's just useless fluff. that's why your defence of athena reads like a white knight to me. and although you didn't promise a wagon analysis on athena, you DID promise a long post with scumreads and allude to having several others other than zeus, but barely talked about any of them this is basically the only non-zeus content you ever ended up posting, on weapons: even though I don't agree with weapons, I don't think that there's a lack of progression here because weapons gives reasons for his change of mind in the post that you're quoting, which you don't address. but even setting that aside it's not very much given you said you had a few other scumreads and you were preparing a long post. i don't really care about your quantity of posts. fwiw after your spree of posts earlier today (last night for you) you might even be in the upper half wrt post count. i care about quality and a lot of your posts just seem like they're just responding to whatever posts are happening in the thread at that moment, or were directly addressed to you, rather than looking for scum. it's also hypocritical for you to bag on weapons for asking a player to self-meta because self-meta is useless, while you just gave me self-meta.

a lot of stuff happened between then. I obviously don't think that his play is good or that he's playing in a pro-town fashion. but I feel like if he was scum he would have one or two good points thrown in that were being fed to him by teammates, or that he would try more rather than just be resigned. his total lack on that side make me think he's town regardless of his poor play. i also think that i'm the only one defending him atm and generally we'd see him being defended by more people if he were scum. especially in the chaos of a d1 it doesn't take a lot of people speaking up for him to save him.

ehhh ok I'll hold off on bibbon for now but I want to see stuff on more people other than zeus from her ##Unvote, ##Vote: Marth kirsche I know that the main part of marth's junko case is junko's wishy-washiness regarding some of his statements. But it's still just pretty meh. there's no context regarding that; I think somebody said that they feel kind of cherrypicked and I agree. also most of the comments that marth listed are just side questions that are not as important and look more to be just how junko phrases his questions. It's not like he was being wishy-washy on his case against you for example. it's really weak as his main case, and the other stuff about his case on you feels like padding at best. if it's not part of why he finds junko scummy then why does he keep bringing it up every time?

which site are you guys from, smogon? how does bibbon normally play as scum?

my bad the SF post editor sucks and saved the post I made earlier instead of my new post but luckily I had that one saved elsewhere: sucks that both the indian people are probably asleep now and I won't hear from them for a while oh well. fwiw I won't be around much tomorrow although I think I will be there just before phase end. we need to start consolidating since we need 8 votes for a lynch. i know I have a hipster vote right now but I think more people should vote with me!! i'll switch to marth otherwise before i sleep. I've explained why I don't really want to lynch the Satsuma/Snike slot or the zeus slot. I'd probably consolidate on Bartozio if I had to but it seems like the wagon is 1 RVS vote and two votes that were made super long ago (Weapons and Shinori). the wagon and case on him feels outdated, maybe because he hasn't posted in a while. weapons/shinori do you guys still think he's the scummiest? fable is in a similar camp to bart where I'd probably vote him if I had to, but he's probably lower priority than bart for me. mainly because bart's play feels vaguely like p5 mafia to me. not feeling like lynching kirsche or junko today and it doesn't really seem like many other people are either so the people voting there should probably switch soon.

so many posts. i can't believe rein actually wasn't even playing lmao. people being bothered with my vote on him makes more sense now!! i blame whoever voted him before me i don't really like bibbon's past couple pages at all. she kept saying like "yeah i'm going to content don't worry!!!" and then ended up just voting zeus for reasons that just felt really shallow and were regarding his posts over those last couple pages. she didn't actually provide any of the content she said she was working on and never did any kind of analysis of the athena wagon. there actually was more of a sentiment against athena than I thought originally, so her choosing to defend him is fine, but the way she did it makes me think she's more scum whiteknighting town because it didn't seem like she was responding to any cases directly or trying to change peoples minds about him. via's marth case looks good to me. I'm down to vote there if necessary. rereading his junko case it just seems kind of weak and not really looking at context or anything? also I know that IST is a bad mafia timezone but there were still a couple other people around while he was posting and it didn't seem like he was really trying to engage other people at all? i guess kirsche ended up sheeping his junko case but eh it just sort of feels kind of like a votepark on someone who wasn't really at the center of attention. i'm not down to lynch zeus at all. he's even more classic lynchbait than satsuma. i think he'd have to be engaging in a lot of refuge in audacity to not even try coming up with content if he's scum. i also think that his buddies would have bailed him out and thrown him some bones with regards to some stuff to say. the rein thing made me look at the playerlist again and I'm not sure elie, earendil, or animearts have posted since RVS, or at all?

so many posts. i can't believe rein actually wasn't even playing lmao. people being bothered with my vote on him makes more sense now!! i blame whoever voted him before me i don't really like bibbon's past couple pages at all. she kept saying like "yeah i'm going to content don't worry!!!" and then ended up just voting zeus for reasons that just felt really shallow and were regarding his posts over those last couple pages. she didn't actually provide any of the content she said she was working on and never did any kind of analysis of the athena wagon. there actually was more of a sentiment against athena than I thought originally, so her choosing to defend him is fine, but the way she did it makes me think she's more scum whiteknighting town because it didn't seem like she was responding to any cases directly or trying to change peoples minds about him. ##Vote: Bibbon[/b[ via's marth case looks good to me. I'm down to vote there too if people don't want to sheep me on bibbon because I hate indian people. rereading his junko case it just seems kind of weak and not really looking at context or anything. also I know that IST is a bad mafia timezone but there were still a couple other people around while he was posting and it didn't seem like he was really trying to engage other people. i guess kirsche ended up sheeping his junko case but eh it just sort of feels kind of like a votepark on someone who wasn't really at the center of attention. it also feels like half his case is just that he doesn't agree with junko's read on kirsche even though he says several times that he thinks junko's case is okay. people have made some bartozio cases and idk they've kinda felt too focused on bart forgetting to claim. i think that's kind of null tbh. bart does feel super unmemorable though. i'm not down to lynch zeus at all. he's even more classic lynchbait than satsuma. i think he'd have to be engaging in a lot of refuge in audacity to not even try coming up with content if he's scum. i also think that his buddies would have bailed him out and thrown him some bones with regards to some stuff to say. the rein thing made me look at the playerlist again and I'm not sure elie, earendil, or animearts have posted since RVS, or at all.

also nobody is even voting athena and they've never had more than 3 votes afaicr. i don't know where this perception that he's shaping up to be a d1 mislynch is coming from.

weapons's last post is fine. my gut is kind of just like what via said; I feel like he might have gone over the top trying to emulate his town style. and I still don't really know what weight to give to that vs his last post. jb's last post is whatever. lot of it seems perfunctory. i dislike bibbon's post saying there are scum on the athena wagon and then doing no analysis to find out who those scum might be. but she's working on a post so i'll wait for that i unfortunately don't have a lot of time today so i'll have to leave it here sorry. should be back in around 5-6 hours and will do more then.

kinda frustrating that bibbon hasn't come back yet tbh but I'm just going to vote my strongest suspicion since it's been a while at this point and I have low patience. ##Unvote, ##Vote: Weapons i also took a closer look at weapons's reads paragraph. in addition to what refa pointed out about the timing, the reads themselves are pretty unimpressive. the sentences on walrein and kirsche are fine but the rest of it is just whatever and talks about stuff like getting pinged by the formatting of Bibbon's post (???) and some waffle about Eclipse's meta. probably at weapons > jb > bibbon actually. jb talking about how all this stuff has happened in the thread and that fable/satsuma should be able to talk about it while not saying a single thing about it all himself is actually really bad. gives me the impression he was lurking and chose not to post until then to jump on that post. i think it's pretty safe to assume town has a vig in a 21p game wow I think you're being a bit harsh to Iris here

does this replace bbm's cum meta??? I'm mainly just waiting for bibbon to respond first. after weapons's second jokepost after I criticized him, I legit typed out a vote and then deleted it bc WIFOM and I thought I might be overreacting to him being dumb so I decided to wait a little bit to see if I still found it suspicious and yeah i still do. it's super anti-town to make multiple jokeposts like that in that situation. and I agree with Refa's assessment that it doesn't make sense for him to have had those reads and not post them and just be dicking around and not trying to get anywhere. weapons's excuse is pretty unimpressive. @via- you keep saying that you said you didn't feel comfortable with voting me/walrein before I first asked you the question, but I read those early pages again and I swear I still can't find you saying that until I asked you. i don't really care about this as being relevant to your alignment I just don't understand which posts of yours you're referring to. can you quote the post where you said this?

weapons's last two posts have been so strongly anti-town I'm now wifoming on whether he would actually do that as scum. weapons if you're town, at best you're causing someone who you're not scumreading to get sidetracked by being purposely silly.

i would yolovig weapons after that response if I could

if you think that was a eury wallpost you haven't seen anything yet nightmare, who do you feel worst about between satsuma, kirsche, and junko, and why aren't you voting them? weapons is probably scum. he's basically just given joking excuses to avoid content while lurking. he's also more capable of content than the other people not contenting. my bibbon vote doesn't mesh well with this but I'll keep my vote on her at least until she comes back and responds. fable's attitude isn't exactly good but JB's vote on him gives me the same issues as Bibbon's thing about weapons. jb didn't exactly have any content before that post either. he didn't even give basic opinions on other people. feels like he saw something that was obviously bad and easy to push and jumped on it. probably at something like weapons > bibbon > jb right now

actually, I feel (slightly) more strongly about this so ##Unvote, ##Vote: Bibbon agree with athena that bibbon's first post was meh. missed that exchange when i skimmed the thread earlier. pushing weapons for saying everyone is townie when that would also be all of her content if weapons didn't exist is cruddy. i don't agree with kirsche's response bc again, weapons couldn't have generated content about himself, and the part about my posts being weird isn't actually content. it's not a stance of any kind and doesn't even have an explanation of why my posts are weird. i also believe bibbon has played on other sites, so I'm expecting a somewhat higher standard from her? i also didn't like the "i need to get used to this site's meta" comment bc I've played on new sites lots of times and that has never been my approach (yes yes different people are different) @satsuma- you feel like lynchbait bc d1 lynches are frequently on new players who're not good at generating content right out of RVS. @eclipse- i don't understand your "soft tell" logic. obviously people are going to be more aggressive when pushing their own scumreads vs answering other peoples questions. i'd be more suspicious of him if it was the other way around.

@kirsche- this is dumb lol. there's a very clear difference between returning to an RVS-esque vote when you have no other suspicions vs when you do. and i asked questions even though i didn't expect them to go anywhere because it's still better than doing nothing. I thought your initial vote on me wasn't good because like Junko/Refa said it took stuff out of context. i didn't feel like voting you for it at the time because I thought you would change directions after people pointed this out. it annoys me that you're doubling down on this instead. but I feel like as scum you would just be pushing me rather than looking at multiple things and asking more people to engage with your case on me. i don't really get what you're asking shinori though @shinori- my junko vote was somewhere between an RVS vote and a serious vote, mainly for reactions bc his RVS vote gave me a weird feeling. i pressed him a bit on it to see how he would respond, and he responded well. zeus giving excuses is a bit frustrating but given that he's new i don't really feel strongly about this current vote, or any people actively posting in the thread being scum. satsuma is giving me d1 new player lynchbait vibes. i don't really think athena is playing like he did last game at all; he's engaging directly with someone this game, whereas he felt a lot more detached in the last one. 1-game meta is not great but regardless i think this is town v town.

sorry guys I was posting really late last night while barely keeping my eyes open so it got kind of incoherent at parts @kirsche- junko is right yeah. i didn't have any suspicions at the time so i defaulted to a pressure vote. via had two people that he was uncomfortable with so I didn't understand the hesitation to vote one of them considering his current vote is RVS. as for asking questions for the sake of it, it's a good idea anyways in RVS just to get something going. but ultimately even if I think via's actions are weird I'm leaning town cuz of his claim. I don't think he would go for #bigplays as scum. i don't actually have a problem with athena's vote. Just don't understand eclipse's logic in dismissing it because the implication was that she found it a suspicious thing to do in a vacuum but that athena doing it last game lowered the suspiciousness of it a little. except athena was scum last game... ##Unvote, ##Vote: zeus112 not really a fan of his couple posts in the thread. I know not a lot has happened yet, but his posts seem like he's pretty much only posting to directly address stuff directed to him without really trying to engage on other stuff. he did have one-line about what I said on eclipse/athena but it almost seemed more like it was just to stop the prodvote on him. walrein out of curiosity what did you think eclipse's role reveal was going to be before it was revealed she was mayor?

idk what happened to hat last post i swear i read the past two pages two times looking for it and i can't ifnd it help all can find is you saying you weren't that cnfindet in ti but since yure voting rvs i dont unerstnd ihy u woudlnt just vote naywa

i agree with weaons fwiw i'm basically asking questions for the sake ofi t ucz i' townreading most of hte cativep post s

walrein mostly covered my thoughts. I thought that junko's response to my vote was okay and I thought voting Rein might induce him to post because I didn't have anything else and weapons said he saw him lurking. I should have realized however, that nothing can induce Rein to post. I did consider a Refa vote for not commenting on the hydra but I haven't rolled scum in two years so if he's me he's probably just an Innocent Townie being lazy!!! i'm pretty tired but i don't remember asking you anything elie-related. is this supposed to be addressed to junko? eclipse I don't understand your logic. if athena is doing something bad and he did it in the last game as well, as scum, doesn't that make him suspicious? via why aren't you voting walrein (or me)?

eh ##Unvote, ##Vote: Reinfleche

why not wait until more people had posted before making your first post/vote then?