Regarding Ike

[Florete]

Actually, I was talking about these:

I don't think Ike is a stu. Obviously, since I love him so much. :P

But anyway, I think he got pretty decent character development and has plenty of flaws. I just think people tend to overlook some of them because IS has somewhat failed to exploit them properly.

First flaw: Ike puts himself down a lot. He doesn't seem to have much confidence in the beginning. He gets over this one though, as any hero needs to overcome SOME weakness to succeed.

Next: Ike's a glutton. He loves food. This can be exploited as a weakness because if Ike isn't careful, he can make himself ill. Or, the enemy can target him with poison if they figure out his love of spicy meat. This is one of the flaws that IS failed so miserably to properly show us.

Next: Ike's recklessness. Mist points this out, but there are few instances at all where Ike is truly reckless.

Next: An obvious one, Ike is too blunt sometimes. I love his bluntness, though lol. IS actually did good with this one, as we all know.

Next: There are people who hate/dislike Ike. Shinon, Micaiah, and to an extent, Nailah. All of Daein seem to blame Ike for their problems as well. And let's not forget Gatrie deserting him along with Shinon in PoR.

Next: Ike doesn't think before he acts or talks at times, like the scene where he defends Elincia after Sanaki basically makes fun of her.

Next: Ike lacks manners and etiquette. Ike himself actually mentions this one. This is another flaw that IS failed to exploit properly, though. That was the only time where Ike seemed to really have this flaw in PoR.

As for his development, he changed a lot in RD since PoR and in PoR he already went from inexperienced mercenary to a powerful general and famous war hero. In RD, he's a lot more experienced, he's more of a man and more mature, and he's much stronger (in more ways than one). Basically, he went from boy to man. Ike is still shown to lack some manners though, like when he told Rafiel he should be more like Reyson and then Nailah scolded him for it.

And that's really all I have to say on this matter.

In my opinion, Ike falls into all seven of the Deadly Sins.

Gluttony: He's a big eater.

Pride: As bottlegnomes said, he's pretty arrogant.

Wrath: He's trying to get revenge on the Black Knight.

Sloth: He's reluctant to help Sanaki until she forces him to. And he lazes around, not rescuing Lucia until the last possible moment.

Greed: He leads a mercenary troop, killing hundreds of enemies and potentially his own allies too, all for the sparkle of filthy lucre.

Envy: He's clearly jealous that Micaiah saved her country quicker than he did, that she has cooler powers, that people love her, that she has a cooler backstory, etc.

Lust: Unlike other lords that settle down with their childhood friend/dragon girl/twin sister, Ike never married, because he didn't want to restrict himself to one person. He's not fussy; girl, boy, Laguz, it's all the same to him.

Now that I take a closer look at it, Anacybele's post looks more serious (though the food thing is pretty ridiculous) than I initially thought it was. Baldrick's post is pretty laced with sarcasm, though.

The Blood Pact thing is technically off topic, I guess...But no matter where it starts, any discussion about RD's plot and characters inevitably leads to a Blood Pact debate.

[Sol Hiryu]

Well, I don't remember exactly where I heard this, and it might be in the extended script somewhere, and I may have just hallucinated it or something, but it's a decent enough explanation.

I don't think there's an extended version of Naesala's conversation with Lekain available, but this is from post 4-E-1 extended:

Micaiah

King Pelleas! This is it!

Pelleas

The blood pact!

Sothe

I pried this from Lekain's dead fingers. But there's two of them... Isn't this one Daein's?

Pelleas

This is it... But the other one...

Naesala

Oh! That one is mine!

Sothe

King Naesala.

Pelleas

...Kilvas as well?

Naesala

Yeah, that's right. With this... You're finally free. Congratulations.

Pelleas

What? Please tell me... how can I revoke the blood pact?

Naesala

You can do what you want with it... Burn it, rip it, whatever takes your fancy. Since Lekain died once, the proof of the pact had already weakened right? Once the blood pact is destroyed, the markings should disappear at the same time.

Pelleas

Thank you, I am eternally in your debt.

Sothe

What are you going to do from now on?

Naesala

Eh?

Sothe

From what you just said, your proof is still...

Naesala

Oh, my situation is a little different. Lekain's death won't have any effect. Still, so long as I possess the blood pact... I'm sure one day we'll be saved.

There's a distinct difference in the way this and the localized versions are written, more specifically regarding Kilvas's blood pact. The localized version leads us to assume that Kilvas was completely saved as well after Lekain is killed, but here Naesala comes out and says that killing Lekain didn't even change anything with regards to Kilvas's situation, other than actually getting the document. It then leaves us to wonder how the hell that pact is written so the death of the Senator controlling it doesn't even break its power. Again, as I said in my previous post, the whole blood pact situation does too many convenient things and doesn't even bother trying to give a fairly reasonable explanation on how they work.

It is plausible. What precisely, isn't mentioned that makes it implausible?

The localization is partly to blame for this one. It's clear from the extended script that it omitted huge amounts of relevant information and even some pieces of backstory, which is almost unthinkable considering all the new things they throw into the plot. Although even from the original Japanese version, from the scripts we have available, I would say they don't delve enough into the plot devices to make it believable.

...

Alright, getting back on topic, I really don't believe Ike is a sue. He made some stupid mistakes in PoR and he's learned from them, which goes into the whole thing about him being stagnant in RD. Personally, I thought the bit about Ike's revelation of being excited to fight the Black Knight again really interesting; was that actually his true motivation for finding/fighting him rather than actually taking revenge for his father (which would be a nice little bonus anyway)? I'm a bit disappointed they didn't go further with that angle since it would have given us an interesting insight of his character.

I suppose he does come off a little "perfect" in RD, but I'm willing to forgive that because of PoR's existence.

Then we have Micaiah, who could be thought of as being the most screwed over by RD's writing. She has all the makings of a Mary Sue, but I think she has -just enough- character to narrowly avoid that label. Still, none of the parts of the story really go into her development. Ike suffers the same problem in RD but has the excuse of having done most of his character development already in his previous game. I still say that she wouldn't be as hated as she is if RD didn't try to make Daein so sympathetic. =/

[Anouleth]

The localization is partly to blame for this one. It's clear from the extended script that it omitted huge amounts of relevant information and even some pieces of backstory, which is almost unthinkable considering all the new things they throw into the plot. Although even from the original Japanese version, from the scripts we have available, I would say they don't delve enough into the plot devices to make it believable.

I didn't ask what was to blame, I asked specifically what was missing.

[-Cynthia-]

Then we have Micaiah, who could be thought of as being the most screwed over by RD's writing. She has all the makings of a Mary Sue, but I think she has -just enough- character to narrowly avoid that label. Still, none of the parts of the story really go into her development. Ike suffers the same problem in RD but has the excuse of having done most of his character development already in his previous game. I still say that she wouldn't be as hated as she is if RD didn't try to make Daein so sympathetic. =/

I don't understand what's necessarily bad about the player developing sympathy for a country under an oppressive regime. I was actually more impressed that IS didn't insist on making Daein the "bad guys" again. In FE10 we see a nuanced version of all the nations really, both the good and the bad which I think is one of its strong points especially compared to some previous FE titles.

Edited August 13, 2012 by -Cynthia-

[Anacybele]

Um, I was not trying being sarcastic. I was being serious.

How the fuck is that a flaw?

Um, lacking manners and etiquette is a bad thing?

[Integrity]

Um, lacking manners and etiquette is a bad thing?

It in itself is a bad thing, but being generally (always?) explicitly forgiven for that flaw quite well reverses it.

EDIT: mf new page need quotes ;/

Edited August 13, 2012 by Mr. Sparkles

[eclipse]

Um, lacking manners and etiquette is a bad thing?

I'm pretty sure if one's only flaw was stated as above, I'd still consider the character a Sue/Stu. Characters flaws are more blunt/serious than that.

[aku chi]

I don't understand what's necessarily bad about the player developing sympathy for a country under an oppressive regime. I was actually more impressed that IS didn't insist on making Daein the "bad guys" again. In FE10 we see a nuanced version of all the nations really, both the good and the bad which I think is one of its strong points especially compared to some previous FE titles.

What nuance does Radiant Dawn exhibit with its characterization of Begnion? The senators are all over-the-top evil and hideous. Jarod and his occupation army are absurdly over-the-top evil. Sanaki and the Pegasus Knights, on the other hand, are shining beacons of goodness. The rest of the army are just following orders. The only nuance comes from Sephiran and Zelgius (and neither are really Begnion citizens).

No, Radiant Dawn just changed the big bad nation from Daein to Begnion. I think Radiant Dawn could have had a stronger narrative if IS hadn't gone out of their way to make the Begnion Occupation Army the most tyranical and callous army imaginable.

[Sol Hiryu]

I didn't ask what was to blame, I asked specifically what was missing.

That's sorta what I meant. The localization removed a ton of information that most players will never see unless they specifically look for the script on-site, which is why some deem parts of the story implausible due to missing information/not enough elaboration.

To explain further, information about the blood pacts, the exact details of Pelleas's treaty with Begnion...two very important plot points that aren't really explored in depth in the localization.

Look at 3-13's extended script. There's a huge amount of new information that most players will never see. It shows why Micaiah has the mark of the pact on her arm (and explains the CG in the game that never shows up in the story!). It gives both her and Sothe some much needed characterization.

And that's just one chapter. Other parts of the extended script give better insight into stuff like the laguz tribe's tactics, much better characterization through additional dialog, and even some worldbuilding snippets through small conversations. That's stuff that we never saw when it was localized.

RD's plot wasn't bad, but the lack of explanation about a lot of details in Part 3 is really apparent.

I don't understand what's necessarily bad about the player developing sympathy for a country under an oppressive regime. I was actually more impressed that IS didn't insist on making Daein the "bad guys" again. In FE10 we see a nuanced version of all the nations really, both the good and the bad which I think is one of its strong points especially compared to some previous FE titles.

There's nothing wrong with developing sympathy for Daein. If people are getting mistreated by occupation forces to the extent they were going through, it's hard not to feel sympathy for them.

What I take issue with is that RD more or less ignores most of what Daein did during PoR, outside of a few Ashnard mentions. I actually found it a bit dismaying that most characters didn't even touch upon some of the previous war crimes or atrocities except in a few optional battle conversations. I don't mind Daein not being portrayed as the "bad guys", but the lack of acknowledgment of the previous game's events with regards to Daein is more than a little weird, and I think it could have made them move more towards a lighter shade of grey. Hell, there's only one or two mentions of its citizens hating laguz in the game, and they're not even elaborated on further than that.

[Samias]

Ike's lack of etiquette is a pretty big deal in FE9. He doesn't get punished for being rude, but Sanaki was clearly using him to expose the Senate's corruption and saw him as a competent group of mercenaries who were not influenced by the aristocracy of Begnion and thus were likely to give Sanaki the results she wanted. Ike is sent off on an assortment of weird tasks by Sanaki which he outwardly questions the motives of, as if the Empress is playing games with him. When he connects the dots that he's been tasked to expose the laguz slave trade, his respect for Sanaki increases and he stops having outbursts. But he doesn't just get away with things in FE9 for no reason. In chapter 2, if Titania hadn't gone for reinforcements, Mist and Rolf also probably would have died from Ike rushing to save them without any sort of plan. His punishment comes off a little light, but the mercenary company is swamped with work, so Greil can't exactly bench anyone. The punishment just never comes to fruition because of Greil's death.

Greil

Regardless of your reasons, you disobeyed the orders of a superior officer. You are confined to quarters for ten days.

Mist

But, Father! They did what they did to help me and Rolf!

Greil

Rules exist for a reason, Mist. Men won't survive on a battlefield if they do as the, wish without so much as a by-your-leave.

Ike

...I understand. And accept the reprimand.

Greil

That being said, we've got more work than we can handle. Your punishment is deferred until things calm down.

FE10, taken in a vaccuum, has very poor character development and Ike would have been a massive Gary Stu, but I felt his flaws in FE9 were present enough to make an impact on the player, even if he still manages to sass-talk an empress without much of a repercussion.

[Noktra]

extended bloodpact script:

I somehow completely forgot about this... Ok then Anouleth's interpretion might be right.

But anyway... the script gives me the shudders at another part now -.-

weakened...

Wasn't it the big deal in 1st playthrough with "omg you killed Pelleas for naught!!" that they had to destroy the pact and then one of of the pactmakers?

I guess being turned to stone and then to flesh again by a goddess does count as being dead and not-yet being alive again? >__>

Or the pact could just not hop on because everyone was stone? how... convenient...

(what a mess....)

It is plausible. What precisely, isn't mentioned that makes it implausible?

plenty... just plenty of it... I think it would ravage the borders of this thread if I'd go into everything...

example: Lilia's writing on the wall in PoR. She told "a large human" had abducted her from serenes forest in the night of the masacre.

Guess that would've been Ashnard. The good guys hence reckoned the masacre was Ashnard's doing.

The masacre was then the reason for Sephiran to go completely nuts and starting to plan his world-ending-szenario (he was speaking to zelgius when they both first met about "something he have to do")

At the end of PoR Ike talks to Sephiran about the whole Ashnard-serenes-masacre-medaillon-theory they had come up with. Sephiran then told Ike "never did I uncover what you have found". According to Misaha Sephiran "cannot speak lies" So I guess Sephiran really didn't know?

But in RD Sephiran suddenly babbles about he himself being the one to point Ashanrd at the direction of the medallion... Wait what? Either Sephy is lying here or... there's a timegap... If Ashnard knew about the medaillion already in the night of the masacre then when and why should Sephiran... Sephiran didn't have this plan back then...? But in Ike's memory scene Sephiran knew Ashnard had the medaillion once already.

*I'm totally confused*

example2: the wonderfull and evershifting mechanics of the plotpact *sarcasm*

example3: the poor poor Daeins...

Cynthia has a good point there with stating it was a refreshing change to not make them the bad boys again. True ...but again, it was a good intention of IS, but poorly done...

The Daein's fanatism to willingly follow a "silverhaired wonder" into yet another unneccessarily war just destroyed everything of "they're not the bad guys again" for me... It was the same fanatism love to their homeland that made them follow Ashnard (at least from what I get out of the Daein NPCs in PoR).

They've not changed at all in my view... (the peasants know nothing about the bloodpact, bust are still very happy to follow Micy...)

(And having blondie-merchant guy ranting about Ashnard was better then the begnions without ever being corrected about the bullshit he said just make me angry. We saw crimean peasants get "worked to death" (after port toha, the guys who rat on elinicias whereabouts), we saw Daeins that "attacked us for merely being armed and within the Crimean border" ... heck even the merchants where fleeing to Gallia. They only had Beorc goods, so why gallia and not Begnion? I guess... because it was the fastest way out of Daeins grip... Under begnions oppression the merchants were on their way to the local market... begnion wasn't as threatening then I guess... ...but Blondie still thinks Ashnard was a cooler guy, neat :3)

I could rant on and on and on...

(Almighty knowing-it-all Sothe comes to mind... "Zelgius should've rescued Sephiran by now" ... Wait what?? you're not supposed to have any contacts out of Daein, how the heck did you know?)

anyway enough for now...

back to Ike

I don't think Ike has too much Stu'ish traits. Some... but the Maincharacter should be one to identify with...

and a good maincharacter just has to be a little different then the rest of the crew imho. Otherwise he/she wouldn't been able to bring change or any accomplishments at all.

(Especially in a world like Tellius.. frozen in hundreds of years of constant conflict and racism... he just NEED to be different and outstanding to change anything in this world.)

So some Stu-traits are to be expected... and I find them tolerable.

In case of Ike his different ways of thinking even makes sense... He's been born and raised in Gallia, so he stands between those two races already in some way.

Other than Micaiah who's been brought up in Daein but still don't have any hatred or prejudice against Laguz in her, such a wonderfull and pure girl *sarcasm*

(She must've had an awesome granny to care for her... brought up with the right ideals... obviously with some way of love and understanding despite knowing Micy's brand... awesome daein(?) granny...)

What's more putting me off is that Ike with all his flaws never get in trouble for it (as already mentioned). He got almost in trouble with Lekain when being disrepectfull to sanaki. And almost lost his head (literally) in the night his father was murdered. But both times he was lucky and saved by someone.

(Ok... not getting saved would've meant executed Ike, hence game over, so it's ok in a way *lol*)

But I guess to change the world one must be lucky :)

Let's go back for a moment to check what a "Mary Sue" is... First it's a fanmade character... mostly brought up with the wish of altering the story or dream themself into it (being for glory or romantics or whatever).

Most of the time those characters have some story-breaking abilities (to make the storychanges happen) or just stand out in some other way. (And somehow they need to... for the same reasons applying to a storymaincharacter)

Sadly those characters aren't very well-written most of the time... and end up breaking the story too much (in some unplausible way) or draw out sudden changes in other characters which weren't to be expected.

They don't flow with the story, the make the story flow around them...

I have to say that I don't have a dislike for Mary Sues per default - quite the opposite. If... and if, they are wellwritten and plausible I even like them much.

In case of Ike... The story flows around him, but he also flows with it... He undergoes changes with each passing chapter... he grows and learns. He makes characters change themself, step by step and overtime (Lethe, Jill) (PoR at least)

I think this counts for a plausible characterportrait.

On the other hand... Micaiah Sue...

The story flows around her, but she doesn't flow with it. Neither does she grows and learn nor does she undergo any great personality changes... she's practically the same in epilogue as in the beginning.

Heck she even doesn't DO anything FOR the story... It's quite easy to completely scratch her out and let other characters partialy do her parts. (Minus the realease galdr maybe)

Try that with PoR-Ike! ... I made a thought experiment, and I found it pretty hard to impossible to scratch him out of the story untill the crimean army made its way back to delbray. (afterwards he's not that needed anymore)

And Micaiah Sue just screws the other characters... A Zihark fighting Laguz? What? ... A Tormod answering in a calm way "notg oing to happen" on Micaiah's suggestion to make up with izuka? That's not the impulsive Tormod he is with other people around....

Any Laguz she meets seems to instantly love her - it's not that she's branded you know...

Even the Black Knight falls for her in short time *facepalm*

That's not changing them step by step... that's... turning them upside down!

RD Ike is another case...

Characterdevelopment? nope...

Plotkai powers? yepp (whenever he shows up it is literally an instawin for his crew)

Suddenly changes of character? jepp... He's dumb as a piece of rock over the most time and after killing Zelgius he suddenly understands the whole Sephiran-is-evil plot (he talks to sanaki about it) (dunno if that happens without the memory scene, but still ....)

I still don't think he's stuish in RD (... but that could be because I despise him so much in RD...)

just.... horribly written...

And with his flaws pointed out (they never backfire on him, but at least he has some... *annoyed look at micaiah*) I realized Ike is a rather "sinfull" being...

He just does what he think is right. If he's hungry he stuffs himself (seemingly with no regards wether others still get enough / Lethe, Mordecai going out to hunt "more" XD) (<-- don't take me too serious on that eating point xD)

Anyhow, he listens to his instincts. He himself says as much.

No wonder Yune loves him so much later on.

(Am I the only one who found it rather silly, that a seemingly rather calm and collected, peaceloving and caring girl is the vessel of yune? the goddess of chaos?? Especially after I got the feeling the one in PoR answering best to Yune's powers was Ashnard? Insane, bloodlusty, temper driven?

All "balanced" ones rather felt uneasy around the waving blue flames of chaos - in PoR as RD alike. Ashnard touched that damn thing and was still sane (as sane as he can be I guess >_>) afterwards, just with some nifty powerup. He felt pleased in the presence of chaos. So why the heck is Yune's vessel a rather balanced one? ....?)

Personally, I thought the bit about Ike's revelation of being excited to fight the Black Knight again really interesting; was that actually his true motivation for finding/fighting him rather than actually taking revenge for his father (which would be a nice little bonus anyway)? I'm a bit disappointed they didn't go further with that angle since it would have given us an interesting insight of his character.

As for me I liked that info too... but it's one of the main reasons I can't stand Ike anymore...

Ike said he felt no sadness nor anger, just joy. Meaning: he's over the revenge thing already >,>

But he still insits on killing Zelgius... Because he's excited to fight him again.... *facepalm* That's the fu*** same reason Zelgius killed Greil!!

Zelgius was a bad murderer afterwards, but with Ike it's still ok, he had justification (revenge! ...no revenge isn't a justification Ike....) and he was only killing a bad guy whom noone ever cared about so it's alrighty ....

(makes me want to retch, really)

If Ike had said the old anger and hatred plopped up again, I had no qualms with it. Still not morally right but acceptable to kill Zelgius then. ( I had no qualms with it in PoR after all...)

...In some way Ike became the man he had sworn to kill... relentless and without mercy on the battlefield... killing a strong opponent out of enjoyment... killing former comrades without qualms...

seriously... I liked the Original One better... at least Blackie is honest in doing evil things.

....long post is long, omgosh

[Anacybele]

It in itself is a bad thing, but being generally (always?) explicitly forgiven for that flaw quite well reverses it.

EDIT: mf new page need quotes ;/

Exactly what I mean by "IS failed to exploit some of Ike's flaws properly." Ike's flaws were brought up, but there were few instances, if any, where he was made to look bad for them in any way. I still love Ike for his personality and some other things, but this is the one thing IS did do wrong with him.

Here's an example of what I mean by exploiting flaws properly. Take the main character of my fanfiction, Azura. She has an irrational fear of anything with eight legs. Basically arachnophobia. Ike and Ranulf get a bit annoyed at her when this is first shown. Jett later downright makes fun of her for it when it comes up again later. Thus, she's made to look bad.

Not long after Azura is promoted to Lord, she makes her first huge mistake. She's rude to Leyon and basically tells him to fuck off when he tries to protect her, but then Natalie gets all "leave him alone!" and they get into a fist fight. This is Azura's flaw of her somewhat disrespect for men and that she doesn't really like to be helped when she's trying to kill a bad guy. She's made to look bad here yet again. To make her look even worse, Leyon is injured due to this occurring in the middle of a battle, and one of his injuries causes him to lose his memory. King Wencelis is very disappointed in Azura and would punish her, but he needs every able man if they're to hold out in the war.

Leyon later helps her learn from that mistake, and there's some of her character growth.

Oh, and earlier in the story, Skye gets annoyed at Azura when she runs off after two bandits that attempt to escape. She's injured and faints as a result. He and Bryan are also annoyed with her for awhile after the Leyon-loses-his-memory incident, though Bryan does later forgive her.

The only person who continues expressing any disdain for Ike is Shinon. So there. If IS had done something like what I did with Azura, I'd love Ike even more than I already do, and that's saying something since Ike is my favorite FE character.

[HeroMystic]

As for me I liked that info too... but it's one of the main reasons I can't stand Ike anymore...

Ike said he felt no sadness nor anger, just joy. Meaning: he's over the revenge thing already >,>

But he still insits on killing Zelgius... Because he's excited to fight him again.... *facepalm* That's the fu*** same reason Zelgius killed Greil!!

Zelgius was a bad murderer afterwards, but with Ike it's still ok, he had justification (revenge! ...no revenge isn't a justification Ike....) and he was only killing a bad guy whom noone ever cared about so it's alrighty ....

(makes me want to retch, really)

If Ike had said the old anger and hatred plopped up again, I had no qualms with it. Still not morally right but acceptable to kill Zelgius then. ( I had no qualms with it in PoR after all...)

I somewhat disagree with this. While it's true that Ike felt joy at hearing the return of the Black Knight, it doesn't mean he didn't feel anger. Granted, he didn't act like maniac when he heard of his failure to kill him, but I would point back to PoR for when he first attacked Black Knight right after the death of Greil and almost died. He learned to control his emotions.

He "insists" on fighting Zelgius because the man murdered Greil. It was still a main motivator that kept Ike attached to Black Knight. However, keep in mind Black Knight allowed Ike to live on multiple occasions (including during the 'final battle' in PoR if you go by the localization script), because Zelgius believed he would soon become the spinning image of General Gawain, the man who he wanted to fight at full capacity. Ike, who pretty much perfected Gawain's fighting style at that point, obliged him. If Ike wanted to just kill Zelgius "for the lulz", I doubt they would've spent such a long time talking about how awesome his father was.

Zelgius is the sole reason why Ike is as strong as he is. He desired to surpass him using his father's skills. When he finally killed Zelgius, Ike acknowledged him as one of the strongest swordmans on Tellius, as well as his teacher. This much I can agree with you on, as Ike did "get over" Greil's death, but only after Zelgius is dead. All of his hidden emotions surfaced once all the anger left him.

...In some way Ike became the man he had sworn to kill... relentless and without mercy on the battlefield... killing a strong opponent out of enjoyment... killing former comrades without qualms...

Ike is relentless and without mercy, but so is every soldier on Tellius pretty much. Jill's conversation with Ike in 3-F says it best:

Ike

Jill...

Jill

General Ike!

Ike

I need to speak with you. Lower your axe, just for a moment.

Jill

No, I can't. Don't ask me about what's happening in Daein. We are your enemies. Please treat us as such. This battle must happen.

Ike

...All right, have it your way.

And to say Ike has no qualms with killing former comrades is just plain false. Ike pretty much outright states in Part 4-P that he wasn't looking forward to fighting Sothe, and if you do happen to fight Sothe in 3-6, they have this conversation:

-snipped dialogue-

Sothe

Commander, I... I didn't want to see you like this.

Ike

But you don't intend to retreat, do you?

Sothe

That's right.

Ike

Sothe, before you challenge me, you better be ready never to see that girl again. Can you handle that?

Sothe

Wh-what?!

Ike

If you can't, stay away from me. You'll get no mercy, despite our past. I'm sorry, Sothe, but the choices we've both made have brought us to this. There's no turning back now.

Sothe

I understand, Commander. And to answer your question... Yes, sir, I can handle that. Whenever you're ready, Commander.

There's even the part in Chapter 3-13 where Ike pretty much begs Micaiah to let him help her with whatever is forcing the Daein Army to fight (which is impossible to activate unless Ike has Celerity + Boots).

Micaiah vs Ike

Ike: Micaiah, we have to talk. This is insane.

Micaiah: What's insane about a people fighting for their country?

Ike: There's got to be something we can do! Let us help, please!

Micaiah: Why would you want to help us, after everything we've done? No, after everything I've done...

Ike: We know you don't want this fight. Isn't there any way for us to avoid it?

Micaiah: ...No. No, I'm afraid there isn't.

Ike: Just talk to me! We can find a way!

Micaiah: You don't understand. We can't stop. I'm sorry, but I can't explain it more clearly than that.

Ike: Micaiah, I don't want you to die. I don't want all of your soldiers to die. You have to let me help you.

Micaiah: Ike... Now I see it. Now it makes sense.

Ike: What makes sense?

Micaiah: Sothe always spoke so highly of you. Now I know the reason. You truly are a good person. It's a shame...

Ike: Why is that a shame?

Micaiah: Because it makes what I have to do even harder. Please prepare yourself. Let's put an end to this.

Ike: As you wish. Good-bye, Micaiah.

Micaiah: (The light of life! Shine a ray upon my path and) ...strike my enemy!

Ike doesn't show any mercy in battle because of soldier's honor. When honor is no longer in play (such as 3-13 and 3-F), he becomes concerned about underlying issues. If he's up against people like Sothe, who is more or less bounded by his duty, he'll give him an unbiased battle out of respect.

[Integrity]

Exactly what I mean by "IS failed to exploit some of Ike's flaws properly." Ike's flaws were brought up, but there were few instances, if any, where he was made to look bad for them in any way. I still love Ike for his personality and some other things, but this is the one thing IS did do wrong with him.

Ignoring the rest of your post to focus on this because it's an important thing. When we're discussing Aiku, the only thing that matters is IS's characterization of him. If IS dropped the ball and "failed to exploit some of Ike's flaws properly" that's the end of that. When you say "I would have done this" it's irrelevant to the topic at hand. How are Ike's flaws treated in canonical representations of Ike? If the answer is "they're not really addressed/they're forgiven," that's the end of it. Speculation gets us nowhere.

I'm not saying he's flawless or he isn't flawless; I'm trying to remain totally neutral on this whole thread.

[BrightBow]

example3: the poor poor Daeins...

Cynthia has a good point there with stating it was a refreshing change to not make them the bad boys again. True ...but again, it was a good intention of IS, but poorly done...

The Daein's fanatism to willingly follow a "silverhaired wonder" into yet another unneccessarily war just destroyed everything of "they're not the bad guys again" for me... It was the same fanatism love to their homeland that made them follow Ashnard (at least from what I get out of the Daein NPCs in PoR).

They've not changed at all in my view... (the peasants know nothing about the bloodpact, bust are still very happy to follow Micy...)

(And having blondie-merchant guy ranting about Ashnard was better then the begnions without ever being corrected about the bullshit he said just make me angry. We saw crimean peasants get "worked to death" (after port toha, the guys who rat on elinicias whereabouts), we saw Daeins that "attacked us for merely being armed and within the Crimean border" ... heck even the merchants where fleeing to Gallia. They only had Beorc goods, so why gallia and not Begnion? I guess... because it was the fastest way out of Daeins grip... Under begnions oppression the merchants were on their way to the local market... begnion wasn't as threatening then I guess... ...but Blondie still thinks Ashnard was a cooler guy, neat :3)

The people of Tellius as a whole were at trial for a reason. The games showed that they all had their issues.

Back in PoR, we were told that most of the Galilean Senate wasn't too hot about the kings efforts to get the Beorc and Laguz back together. Lethe and Lyre are very hostile towards the Beorc and the citizens we meet weren't to happy to see Beorc either.

And we have seen what the Crimean people think about this issue in PoR chapter 11.

The Hawks were essentially at war with Begnion and weren't interested in a peaceful solution and while we didn't see much of the Raven's, under Naesala's rule they can't have been that nice.

The Begnion people don't question their corrupt nobles and were easily swayed into Genocide.

And Goldoa caused a lot of harm back in the day. And the only thing they seemed to have learned from it is that if you don't do anything, you can't do wrong.

And all of them liked to pick on the Branded.

All the people of Telius are horribly flawed and not undeserving of their Judgment. That's a part of the writing that I think actually really works. It would have been bad writing if the Daein would have turned from racists into paragons of virtue.

It's just fitting that they still think low of the "sub-humans" and that they arrogantly think the goddess send them a silver-haired messiah, ignorant about the foolish girl actually being a Branded.

I could rant on and on and on...

(Almighty knowing-it-all Sothe comes to mind... "Zelgius should've rescued Sephiran by now" ... Wait what?? you're not supposed to have any contacts out of Daein, how the heck did you know?)

Tormod told him. It's mentioned in the extended script.

In case of Ike his different ways of thinking even makes sense... He's been born and raised in Gallia, so he stands between those two races already in some way.

It's probably more a case that he didn't know anything about the Laguz until he was an adult. So he could take a look on those things things without prejudice.

Other than Micaiah who's been brought up in Daein but still don't have any hatred or prejudice against Laguz in her, such a wonderfull and pure girl *sarcasm*

(She must've had an awesome granny to care for her... brought up with the right ideals... obviously with some way of love and understanding despite knowing Micy's brand... awesome daein(?) granny...)

She knows that the Daein people would kill her for simply...being. Why would she share their attitude when she is also it's victim? And in her endless wisdom, when she eventually connected to the people of Daein she immediately adopted their hatred for the guy who gave them a well deserved butt-kicking.

In case of Ike... The story flows around him, but he also flows with it... He undergoes changes with each passing chapter... he grows and learns. He makes characters change themself, step by step and overtime (Lethe, Jill) (PoR at least)

I think this counts for a plausible characterportrait.

No he doesn't really change. He is still the simple guy at the end of the game then he was at the beginning. He learned about the world but he didn't change. And I am pretty sure that's intentional. Nasir prophecies early in the game that Ike's experience would change him but as he has to admit in the Epilouge:

Nasir: When we were sailing off the coast of Phoenicis, remember? I said that war would change how you look at things. And yet... Through all that's happened, you've remained the same.

...

Nasir: Please stay that way, Ike. Don't change for anyone.

In other words, the game flat out says that it's his lack of change that made him a hero. Personally I would say that if Ike is a Sue, he is the rare brand of a well written one you spoke of.

Edited August 13, 2012 by BrightBow

[Anacybele]

Ignoring the rest of your post to focus on this because it's an important thing. When we're discussing Aiku, the only thing that matters is IS's characterization of him. If IS dropped the ball and "failed to exploit some of Ike's flaws properly" that's the end of that. When you say "I would have done this" it's irrelevant to the topic at hand. How are Ike's flaws treated in canonical representations of Ike? If the answer is "they're not really addressed/they're forgiven," that's the end of it. Speculation gets us nowhere.

I'm not saying he's flawless or he isn't flawless; I'm trying to remain totally neutral on this whole thread.

1. Who the heck is Aiku?

2. I was only trying to make my viewpoint on what WOULD have been good execution of a character's flaws clear. How IS SHOULD have done it with Ike by using one of my own characters (who is in some ways similar to him, I might add, which is why I chose that character) as an example. That is all.

Edited August 13, 2012 by Anacybele

[RNG Princess]

I don't think Ike has too much Stu'ish traits. Some... but the Maincharacter should be one to identify with...

and a good maincharacter just has to be a little different then the rest of the crew imho. Otherwise he/she wouldn't been able to bring change or any accomplishments at all.

(Especially in a world like Tellius.. frozen in hundreds of years of constant conflict and racism... he just NEED to be different and outstanding to change anything in this world.)

So some Stu-traits are to be expected... and I find them tolerable.

His Stu-traits are tolerable and excusable because he's more outstanding then the rest of the characters and because he's the main character and different enough to liberate countries but her Sue traits aren't tolerable and excusable for the same reason? That makes no sense.

In case of Ike... The story flows around him, but he also flows with it... He undergoes changes with each passing chapter... he grows and learns. He makes characters change themself, step by step and overtime (Lethe, Jill) (PoR at least)

I think this counts for a plausible characterportrait.

On the other hand... Micaiah Sue...

The story flows around her, but she doesn't flow with it. Neither does she grows and learn nor does she undergo any great personality changes... she's practically the same in epilogue as in the beginning.

Heck she even doesn't DO anything FOR the story... It's quite easy to completely scratch her out and let other characters partialy do her parts. (Minus the realease galdr maybe)

Try that with PoR-Ike! ... I made a thought experiment, and I found it pretty hard to impossible to scratch him out of the story untill the crimean army made its way back to delbray. (afterwards he's not that needed anymore)

I'll try ^^'. Have Greil not die and he'll eventually feel compassion for Elincia and give her help to restore her country. Or another way to scratch Ike off but have Greil dead is by letting Titania or Mist become the lord. They also feel compassion for Lincy and iirc it was them who convinced Ike to help Lincy ^^'. So it's entirely possible to scratch Ike off PoR and have it flow the same. Titania loved Greil so she could also feel the need to avenge him, and Mist is his daughter so it would fit her too.

BTW Miccy isn't the same in the epilogue and the beginning. She was bitter and hateful especially of Ike but that changes so she's not the same ^^'. She also learns to face her fear of being branded and shows compassion for others whereas before she avoided people to the point of leaving Sothe. She's also not as obedient in later parts of the game as she is in Part 1 ^^', she becomes more stubborn throughout the game.

A lot of the story wouldn't make sense without Miccy unless the silver haired maiden was Sothe ;W;.

And Micaiah Sue just screws the other characters... A Zihark fighting Laguz? What? ... A Tormod answering in a calm way "notg oing to happen" on Micaiah's suggestion to make up with izuka? That's not the impulsive Tormod he is with other people around....

Any Laguz she meets seems to instantly love her - it's not that she's branded you know...

Even the Black Knight falls for her in short time *facepalm*

That's not changing them step by step... that's... turning them upside down!

She never changed their character, they decide to stay with her and that's why they're recruitable for the opposite team. Muarim knows her secret and is blunt with her, he isn't mean to her but he's not friendly or fond of her either. Yet he's very friendly with Sothe, and Ike. Vika feels insecure around her but decides to become friends with her. The Black Knight is random but maybe Izuka has to do with it? ^^'

I know that Izuka is responsible for advertising Micaiah around Daein as the figure-head which results into people being more fond of her than Ashnard's own "son" ^^' where before that it was Ashnard's son that the people were hopeful for ^^'. So maybe Black Knight heard the news by one of Izuka's sources? ^^'

And with his flaws pointed out (they never backfire on him, but at least he has some... *annoyed look at micaiah*) I realized Ike is a rather "sinfull" being...

He just does what he think is right.

Micaiah has many flaws too and some backfire on her. One of them is being unnecessarily stubborn by following Pelleas' orders because she knows she shouldn't but she does anyway, and it get's her boyfriend's life at risk by Tibarn ^^'.

Edited August 14, 2012 by Maiden_of_Emblem

[Lord Raven]

1. Who the heck is Aiku?

Ike

2. I was only trying to make my viewpoint on what WOULD have been good execution of a character's flaws clear. How IS SHOULD have done it with Ike by using one of my own characters (who is in some ways similar to him, I might add, which is why I chose that character) as an example. That is all.

You wouldn't know a good way to put it into the story unless it were into the story as is. As it stands right now, Ike is a Mary Sue/Gary Stu that doesn't feel like one, is the general consensus of this thread (at least the impression I'm getting) which is a generally good sign- it just means that Ike's written well. You don't need to do anything with his weaknesses in that case.

[Anacybele]

You wouldn't know a good way to put it into the story unless it were into the story as is. As it stands right now, Ike is a Mary Sue/Gary Stu that doesn't feel like one, is the general consensus of this thread (at least the impression I'm getting) which is a generally good sign- it just means that Ike's written well. You don't need to do anything with his weaknesses in that case.

Agreed, except for the Stu part. I don't think Ike is one, as I've said. But that's my opinion. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Momo]

Greil

Regardless of your reasons, you disobeyed the orders of a superior officer. You are confined to quarters for ten days.

Mist

But, Father! They did what they did to help me and Rolf!

Greil

Rules exist for a reason, Mist. Men won't survive on a battlefield if they do as the, wish without so much as a by-your-leave.

Ike

...I understand. And accept the reprimand.

Greil

That being said, we've got more work than we can handle. Your punishment is deferred until things calm down.

I think this proves just how badly the game treated Ike's character. "You did a bad thing, but eh you'll go without punishment anyway". Saying it'll be deferred until later is like the lamest way of trying to paint it as Greil not approving.

Micaiah vs Ike

Ike: Micaiah, we have to talk. This is insane.

Micaiah: What's insane about a people fighting for their country?

Ike: There's got to be something we can do! Let us help, please!

Micaiah: Why would you want to help us, after everything we've done? No, after everything I've done...

Ike: We know you don't want this fight. Isn't there any way for us to avoid it?

Micaiah: ...No. No, I'm afraid there isn't.

Ike: Just talk to me! We can find a way!

Micaiah: You don't understand. We can't stop. I'm sorry, but I can't explain it more clearly than that.

Ike: Micaiah, I don't want you to die. I don't want all of your soldiers to die. You have to let me help you.

Micaiah: Ike... Now I see it. Now it makes sense.

Ike: What makes sense?

Micaiah: Sothe always spoke so highly of you. Now I know the reason. You truly are a good person. It's a shame...

Ike: Why is that a shame?

Micaiah: Because it makes what I have to do even harder. Please prepare yourself. Let's put an end to this.

Ike: As you wish. Good-bye, Micaiah.

Micaiah: (The light of life! Shine a ray upon my path and) ...strike my enemy!

Ike has no reason to want to help Micaiah, but darn it he's such a nice guy he'll do it anyway. This doesn't really seem like a reaction he should have, she's prolonged the war for seemingly no reason and Ike is being Mr. Nice Guy.

[Anacybele]

I think this proves just how badly the game treated Ike's character. "You did a bad thing, but eh you'll go without punishment anyway". Saying it'll be deferred until later is like the lamest way of trying to paint it as Greil not approving.

Ike has no reason to want to help Micaiah, but darn it he's such a nice guy he'll do it anyway. This doesn't really seem like a reaction he should have, she's prolonged the war for seemingly no reason and Ike is being Mr. Nice Guy.

Did you read anything that was said? Greil deferred the punishment because the mercenaries have a lot of work at the time. He didn't do it just for the hell of it.

And as for helping Micaiah, Ike had all the reason he needs to try to help. He said himself that he can tell Micaiah doesn't want to fight and Ike certainly does not want to fight people who don't wish to fight him. He knows Micaiah is a good person and that the Daein people following her are as well. Why would he ever truly want to harm them?

[eclipse]

Did you read anything that was said? Greil deferred the punishment because the mercenaries have a lot of work at the time. He didn't do it just for the hell of it.

And as for helping Micaiah, Ike had all the reason he needs to try to help. He said himself that he can tell Micaiah doesn't want to fight and Ike certainly does not want to fight people who don't wish to fight him. He knows Micaiah is a good person and that the Daein people following her are as well. Why would he ever truly want to harm them?

*scratches head*

Knows Micaiah is a good person how?

[Lord Raven]

I think this proves just how badly the game treated Ike's character. "You did a bad thing, but eh you'll go without punishment anyway". Saying it'll be deferred until later is like the lamest way of trying to paint it as Greil not approving.

You suggest an alternative. I dare you.

Ike has no reason to want to help Micaiah, but darn it he's such a nice guy he'll do it anyway. This doesn't really seem like a reaction he should have, she's prolonged the war for seemingly no reason and Ike is being Mr. Nice Guy.

Yes he does. He wants to figure out just what the hell is going on in Daein. You don't just free yourself from your captors and then rejoin them literally a couple months later. It's all apart of ending the war. Edited August 14, 2012 by Lord Raven

[Anacybele]

*scratches head*

Knows Micaiah is a good person how?

Ike said "we know you don't want this fight." If they know that, they probably assume that Micaiah and company aren't bad people. Also, he's known since PoR that not everyone in Daein is a dirtbag. Ike only had a quarrel with Ashnard and his followers as well as the Black Knight. Not with anyone else in the nation, even if they hate laguz.

Edited August 14, 2012 by Anacybele

[Sunwoo]

Ike said "we know you don't want this fight." If they know that, they probably assume that Micaiah and company aren't bad people. Also, he's known since PoR that not everyone in Daein is a dirtbag. Ike only had a quarrel with Ashnard and his followers as well as the Black Knight. Not with anyone else in the nation, even if they hate laguz.

But how does Ike knew that Micaiah doesn't want this fight? For all he knows, Daein's current king and its Priestess of Dawn are cuckoo.

(Now, I know that they're not, but how does IKE know that?)