Regarding Ike

[BrightBow]

Maybe I'm a bit cynical in my way of interpretation but that tells me she gives love, because she got love prior. And now she doesn't want to loose that love again. That's her very motivation to fight for Daein.

Nothing cynical about it (from the base conversation with Sothe in chapter 8):

Micaiah: Right now, when they look at me, they have love and affection in their eyes, but would they look at me the same way if they knew? I don't want to find out, Sothe. I don't think I could bear the truth.

...

Micaiah: During the war, I spent a lot of time with the people of Daein while I was waiting for you to return. After we lost the war, all our cities and towns had been reduced to ruins. We had to help each other to cope. We supported and comforted each other. That's how we survived.

...

Micaiah: I've been secluded so long, I had no idea people were so strong... and kind. No one knew who I was, but they helped me because I was from Daein. They were so... loving. They were my friends.

...

Micaiah: I was touched by their kindness. Now, I'm scared to lose it. Very scared.

Still, I don't see how this is a problem. Just goes to show that she is kind of a moron.

She would've been a great villian.

But she is a villain.

Ike is the hero of this game. Micaiah's role is to oppose him.

Edited August 15, 2012 by BrightBow

[bottlegnomes]

Doesn't mean she's a villain. Lloyd and Linus oppose Eliwood and they aren't villains.

[BrightBow]

Doesn't mean she's a villain. Lloyd and Linus oppose Eliwood and they aren't villains.

Yes, they are. Or would have antagonist been a more appropriate word? Since as far as I know being evil is no required for being a villain. Of course, it's definitely possible that I got words with similar meaning confused. I have to admit Bad Guy, Villain, Antagonist are pretty much the same words to me when applied to a story.

Edited August 15, 2012 by BrightBow

[Noktra]

Do you really think you're going to be able to reliably do that against someone who's trying to kill you, all while trying to lead an army? That kind of thinking would interfere with your fighting ability.

Adding to that, wouldn't Ike have to afford the same to everyone? It'd be incredibly difficult to keep everyone in the enemy army as prisoners. Why treat Sothe differently? Ike probably feels it would be an insult to Sothe to go easy just because they know each other.

maybe so, but it wouldn't be me if I wouldn't try it anyway.

There were quite a few Daein war prisoners it seemes (enough to give micaiah a nice little army again after rescuing them), despite having limited abilities as crimean army.

Why treat Sothe differently? So it's better to kill him out of foolish both-sided-pride than insult him? .... men! *shakes head*

Tauroneo: Me? I just... I only wish to meet a glorious end on the battlefield, fit for a general of Daein.

Calill: Mmm-hmm. Men are so full of it. I mean, honestly, are you even listening to how stupid that sounds?

Tauroneo: Wh-what do you mean--

Calill: What I mean is that you're stupid. You have people who care for you on both sides of this suicidal battle. And here you are, in the thick of things, looking to throw your life away! You selfish fool! Looks like I'll have to do this myself. I'm taking you back with me, General. The hard way.

selfish fools indeed... Exactly my way of thinking, thanks Calill

Anyway I'm not the one to be discussed here. I was merely stating why I came to dislike Ike.

(but I still don't think of him as a Stu.)

Still, I don't see how this is a problem. Just goes to show that she is kind of a moron.

Aah thanks BrightBow, that was the one I was searching for.

And showing that she's a moron was exactly my intention. She's one... and stays this way until the end of the game. No character change.

Being a moron would be fine with me, but 1. not as a maincharacter (which she plainly is) and 2. not without any changes in her character throughout the game.

The point is... if a character doesn't change throughout a story (and don't get any reprimand), one can come to think the storyteller wanted us to show that this character is just fine the way it is, that no change was needed.

And that would be just terrible in case of Micaiah imho. That's why I think she's horribly written.

(hmm I use the term villian for more... evil... antagonists... but the cutting line is slim)

And Micaiah is no antagonist in terms of the complete story of RD. She's antagonized through some parts (as is Ike) but that's it.

She's on the cover art of the box and she's the maincharacter in part 1 and one of two maincharacters in part 4. That's clearly a maincharacter for me.

The feeling I always have with Micaiah is... that... she mainly consits of two character concepts.

One is the rather troubled, selfish and moronic one. (The troubled maincharacter who has to undergo a lot of strive)

The other is the plainly loveable almost saintly goody at heart, calm and caring (female) archtype.

And those two collide pretty harshly....

It is possible to make both traits in one character, but it would've needed a lot more fleshing out of her.

The way it is now I can't find it plausible enough. She doesn't change (what's often the case with the caring archtype), but she clearly is not the purely good at heart.

So why doesn't she get some... correcting?

Why is it that a whole nation in complete is blindly following her into a war, with no one rising up against her. (jill says it, she would rebell if it was only Pelleas, but it's Miccy, so she follows because of complete trust. Suetastic....)

Ike has at least a red line in his character.

[bottlegnomes]

Yes, they are. Or would have antagonist been a more appropriate word? Since as far as I know being evil is no required for being a villain. Of course, it's definitely possible that I got words with similar meaning confused. I have to admit Bad Guy, Villain, Antagonist are pretty much the same words to me when applied to a story.

That would be correct. Antagonist is the person opposing the protagonist, or main character. A villain is "evil."

[FionordeQuester]

Why treat Sothe differently? So it's better to kill him out of foolish both-sided-pride than insult him? .... men! *shakes head*

I don't know about bottlegnomes, but that wasn't the point I was trying to make. My point is, compassion on the battlefield is extremely dangerous, and one of the surest ways to get you killed. Personally if it were me, I'd be more of the mindset of...

"I'm going to keep pounding and thrashing you with all my might as long as you keep trying to kill me. And if you happen to still be alive by the time I've made sure you're no longer a threat, great. If not, well...tough".

And technically, for all we know, Ike very well could've been wishing to spare his former comrades, but he knew that his sentiments would get him killed if he expressed them on the battlefield, ergo, him acting the way he did. I'm not sure he would say, actually shove a sword through Sothe's throat anyways, even if Sothe was down on the ground coughing up blood, with both his hands cut off.

Edited August 15, 2012 by FionordeQuester

[Loki Laufeyson]

strangely enough he didn't seem to have this conflict back in PoR

Thats because the laguz werent exactly in the middle of the conflict until later on. Zihark always decides to fight for the laguz. Its the very reason why he can defect from Micaiah's team.

Micaiah isnt a villain. Shes a protagonist as much as Ike is.

[BrightBow]

And Micaiah is no antagonist in terms of the complete story of RD. She's antagonized through some parts (as is Ike) but that's it.

She's on the cover art of the box and she's the maincharacter in part 1 and one of two maincharacters in part 4. That's clearly a maincharacter for me.

The actual hero isn't even on the cover. I think Micaiah is just a decoy. Remember, the game actual adds new scenes into the intro once he probably appears in part 3.

And even so, the main conflict... the one seen in that expensive opening animation... doesn't start until Part 3. Part 1 is actually similar to part 2. I mean it really doesn't have that much to do with what happens in part 3. It seems to exist simply to establish Ike's new rival and to get Daein back into gear.

And her being a main character in part 4... Well she really doesn't get that much to do. I mean, she really only settles things with Lekain and otherwise barely gets a line, yet alone one thats significant.

In contrast Ike is the guy who leads in the final chapter.

He is the guy who constantly speaks with the goddess Yune...

He is the guy who represents all the people of Telius in the face of their god, throwing speeches all over the place.

He is the one who kills said creator.

In the epilogue, everyone says their farewell to Ike. In fact Micaiah and Sothe are the first ones to take their leave.

Ike is also the last person to be mentioned in the endings.

And he gets this nice little poem at the very end:

In days long past, a young man

strode the lands of Tellius.

He was simple yet true, his deeds

brave and noble. He reunited two

races long at war,

and healed the heart of a goddess

long gone mad.

Ask any you meet be they young or

old, beorc or laguz,

of a hero named Ike and you'll receive

a warm smile

and a tale or two of faith, courage,

and honesty.

And he gets apparently the title "Hero of the Blue Flames" before the word "Fin" according to the site but it got lost in localisation.

Micaiah however, just kinda tags along after her role as an antagonist was over. She is really insignificant to the rest of the plot and a main character in "starts at level 1 and has to survive" only. Part 4 is all about Ike and the goddesses.

Edited August 15, 2012 by BrightBow

[Noktra]

@FionordeQuester:

That would be exactly my sentiment too... with strangers. But with friends? *points at Calill*

But be sure I know the danger in this, and I'm sure I wouldn't show my comapssion until I clearly had the upper hand. Which in case of Ike is a given, come on Sothe stands no chance, both of them know that.

So what's with all this ruthlessness in Ike?

(He wasn't that way back in PoR ... *thinks of Shinon*)

@Jon Snow:

Zihark decided to fight with Ike, because he had Laguz on his side (and mainly was fighting for Laguz' sake too in defending the most laguzfriendly beorc-country). He had no qualms going against his homeland back then.

And again: I don't question that he can defect, I question why he doesn't do it sooner?

Why isn't he talking to Micaiah immediatley after given orders to hunt Laguz and saying: sorry Micaiah, I can't follow you on this.

What makes her so special that he even considers staying a while longer?

@BrightBow:

we seem to have different standings on what a maincharacter is.

The maincharacter is Ike, ever was ever will. But Micaiah is a maincharacter too. In PoR Ike cleary was the one and only protagonist. We only see the story through his eyes (more or less but I think you know what I mean).

RD changed its focus away from Ike a bit to show other characters. (Elincia, Micaiah)

For me it feels more like... say... FE8 Eirika or Ephraim Route... the sibling not chosen has rarely any lines in the story too, but still remains a maincharacter imho.

[FionordeQuester]

@FionordeQuester:

That would be exactly my sentiment too... with strangers. But with friends? *points at Calill*

But be sure I know the danger in this, and I'm sure I wouldn't show my comapssion until I clearly had the upper hand. Which in case of Ike is a given, come on Sothe stands no chance, both of them know that.

So what's with all this ruthlessness in Ike?

(He wasn't that way back in PoR ... *thinks of Shinon*)

Yeah, but you have to remember that these guys are using swords and daggers and all of that. As someone who's been training in martial arts since basically 8 years old, I can tell you that even if you're clearly a better fighter than the other guy, all it can take to bring the other guy down is one lucky kick to the head, or the other guy losing his balance. Fights are incredibly chaotic and messy, and anything can happen. Real life isn't like Dragon Ball Z, where you can usually shrug off a devastating blow as long as you have a higher Power Level than the other guy.

And in addition to that, there's really no real way to go easy on the other guy when you're using instant kill weapons like swords or guns. I mean, let's suppose we're watching a western, like say, Gunsmoke, and Sheriff Matt Dylan is facing off against Festus, his deputy, in this exact same situation. Now, Matt Dylan is clearly better than Festus, since of course, he's the Sheriff, and he's like, the most awesome dude ever. But even so, they're using GUNS to fight each other...there's really no way of going "easy" on the other guy with guns, since anywhere you shoot, it's probably going to result in instant death. You can't even shoot the leg or the shoulder (as many westerns might say otherwise), because you risk puncturing a major artery.

That's basically the same situation with weapons. The only way you're going to subdue someone without killing them is to either grapple with them, knock them out with a good blow to the head, disarm them, or something along those lines. But all of these involve extremely close contact, which is almost a death sentence when you're fighting someone like Sothe, who happens to be an expert in using knives. I've been training for something like 10-11 years in martial arts, and regularly train with guys who've trained for even longer than that, and even they will tell you that no matter how skilled you are, you're basically screwed if you're taking on a knife expert with anything but a weapon. Even if you do defeat them, you're going to get cut to heck so badly that you're likely to die from blood loss anyways (of course, fortunately, most idiots on the streets aren't so supremely skilled with knives, but I'll bet you anything Sothe is).

EDIT: In fact, now, I'm actually kind of regretting my previous post. Unlike what I may have led people to believe, if both of you're hands have been cut off, you're probably not going to survive unless you have medical attention, which is very unlikely on the battlefield.

EDIT2: Actually, now that I think about it, there might be ONE way that Ike could incapacitate Sothe without engaging in close contact. I suppose he could just split him open with a really, really nasty cut, but not kill him, like what the Black Knight did to Ena. Even then though, he'd have to be EXTREMELY careful with that, which would be extremely difficult when Sothe is trying to kill him, unlike Ena, who basically let herself be cut up. And I would argue it wouldn't be in either of their best interests if Ike expressed his desire to not want to kill Sothe before they fought, even if that was actually his plan. He would've lost the psychological edge that their exchange gave him.

Edited August 16, 2012 by FionordeQuester

[bottlegnomes]

Also, incapacitating someone with a blow to the head could kill said person from trauma to the brain. Concussions are incredibly dangerous. Look at boxing, and those guys have padded gloves.

Edited August 17, 2012 by bottlegnomes

[aku chi]

Also, incapacitating someone with a blow to the head could kill said person from trauma to the brain. Concussions are incredibly dangerous. Look at boxing, and those guys have padded gloves.

I believe boxing (and MMA and kickboxing) present strong evidence that knocking someone out is highly unlikely to lead to their demise. Over the course of the many thousands of boxing matches with many thousands of knockouts in the past century, there were only a handful of fatalities. This is a rather surprising fact when you think about it. Evidently, humans have a large threshold between being knocked unconscious by a blunt blow and dying from said blow. Padded gloves do not change the circumstances significantly. Consider MMA bouts where the fist padding is minimal and leg padding is non-existent. The primary purposes of wearing gloves is: (1) to protect the striker's wrist and hand and (2) to reduce the likelihood of cutting the target's face. In boxing matches (but not MMA matches), heavy gloves also have the consequence of reducing head trauma from each strike, resulting in longer matches with more total strikes.

Then again, I don't make any claims that being knocked out on an active medieval-ish battlefield is particularly safe. You might be killed either purposefully or accidentally while unconscious.

[FionordeQuester]

What you say may be true Aku Chi, but is there that large of a threshold between unconsciousness and permanent brain injury?

[aku chi]

What you say may be true Aku Chi, but is there that large of a threshold between unconsciousness and permanent brain injury?

(Disclaimer: I have a layperson's understanding of biology.)

I believe you cause permanent brain injury every time you face-palm. That is, smacking yourself on the forehead will kill brain cells that are never regenerated. So, in that trivial sense, being knocked unconscious from a blunt blow will always cause permanent brain damage. Certainly, individuals who undergo repeated head trauma (like professional boxers) are much more likely to suffer significant or noticeable brian damage.

[bottlegnomes]

A difference between MMA and boxing and in the situation being discussed is those are numerous blows vs one strong enough to knock you out. While the former might seem more dangerous, it's actually safer because you're rarely suffering any major trauma from a hit. Boxing and MMA also have extensive medical care available, and have for most or all of their existences. Again, look at concussions. They are incredibly serious. If your head is hit hard enough by a single blow to knock you out instantly there's a good chance of a concussion.

Now I'm not saying that getting knocked out is an automatic death sentence. I'm merely saying that getting hit in the head hard enough to be knocked out isn't nearly as safe as popular media would lead you to believe. And as such, it's not a safe alternative to killing someone in battle. A safer alternative would be breaking a shoulder or something. It's incredibly painful and would make the person incapable of fighting, but isn't particularly life threatening and would still allow the person to retreat.

As for the face palming thing. That's a gross generalization which isn't necessarily true. Permanent injury is generally defined as something that has a negative impact and is irreversible. Losing 5 brain cells makes virtually no difference in any way. Also, last I knew the idea that brain cells can't grow back was being seriously questioned.

Edited August 17, 2012 by bottlegnomes

[Noktra]

.... Are we talking about a fictional universe where people can roast each other with devastating magic, swords firing Beams of Pain, people jumping 3 meters high and spinning-attack their enemys, leeching their lifeforce and shit...

or about real life combat? No offense... but... you are totally right in everything regarding real lifecombat ... but...

Considering all of the above, having a knife up against a magical imbued zweihander is just... lol?

Heck Ike even wears armor... and someone as strong as him could easly grab sothe's arm and twist it.

(And it's still not the point! It's just one of my reasons to dislike Ike, one of many! Ack!)

The point is that even if I dislike Ike, I still don't see him as a Stu. Whereas Micaiah is only saved by my definition of Mary Sue = fancharacter, otherwise she would pretty much count as one imho.

If RD were a fanfiction, Ike would still be the hero and Miccy would be the scratchable Mary Sue *lol*

[Sunwoo]

The thing about RD is that sometimes I feel like it DOES kind of seem like an "official" fanfiction. Let's see ...

A new "central character" for the downtrodden country, who has all these magical powers that no one else in that universe apparently has. Her hair color is even unique for Tellius. She is involved with an already established PoR character (Sothe). She has her own version of the Greil Mercenaries (Dawn Brigade). She is the leader for some unexplained reason, even though Nolan is said to have started. The Dawn Brigade merely exists to praise her and to be her tagalongs. She befriends a heron, who is friendlier to her than Reyson was to Ike. She befriends a "new species" of laguz who were previously unknown in PoR, who are from "another land" that was previously not thought to have been existed. She is Branded. She is the "true apostle" and takes the role from Sanaki, who existed in PoR and was believed to be the true apostle for the entire time. She becomes queen of a country she has no relation to, although the real heir (Soren) exists. Part 1 of RD is like a condensed version of PoR that didn't go into as much depth or detail. She becomes the host of Yune.

I would say that RD has quite a surprisingly significant amount of "fanfiction elements". At times, I feel that it is written like a rushed fanfic. And I've seen a lot of fanfiction, believe me.

[RNG Princess]

Poor Miccy ;A; she's the newer lord and Ike steals her spotlight. I would of liked if Ike and the GM weren't in this game not only for Miccy but for all the new characters that weren't well written compared to PoR's characters.

[Loki Laufeyson]

The thing about RD is that sometimes I feel like it DOES kind of seem like an "official" fanfiction. Let's see ...

A new "central character" for the downtrodden country, who has all these magical powers that no one else in that universe apparently has. Her hair color is even unique for Tellius. She is involved with an already established PoR character (Sothe). She has her own version of the Greil Mercenaries (Dawn Brigade). She is the leader for some unexplained reason, even though Nolan is said to have started. The Dawn Brigade merely exists to praise her and to be her tagalongs. She befriends a heron, who is friendlier to her than Reyson was to Ike. She befriends a "new species" of laguz who were previously unknown in PoR, who are from "another land" that was previously not thought to have been existed. She is Branded. She is the "true apostle" and takes the role from Sanaki, who existed in PoR and was believed to be the true apostle for the entire time. She becomes queen of a country she has no relation to, although the real heir (Soren) exists. Part 1 of RD is like a condensed version of PoR that didn't go into as much depth or detail. She becomes the host of Yune.

I would say that RD has quite a surprisingly significant amount of "fanfiction elements". At times, I feel that it is written like a rushed fanfic. And I've seen a lot of fanfiction, believe me.

Mmhmm... Aside from Part 2 and parts of part 3, i agree.

While i do like the addition of the wolf laguz (loads), it is kinda out of left field. Micaiah's traits are so fanfic-ish..."I CAN SEE THE FUTURE AND HEAL WITH MY HANDS!!!"

She becomes queen of a country she has no relation to, although the real heir (Soren) exists.

I think this is actually the part of the story that pisses me off the most. And its not really because im a Soren fan. Its because no matter what you do, Soren never gets to claim his right! No matter how many supports and weird crap you do, this never happens! Micaiah gets to rule Daein! Ike doesnt end up ruling anything. He just vanishes! So after everything is said and done, Micaiah gets to be a queen! I would be alright with it if she was able to be a part of Begnion's rule in some way, but Daein? Yeah i get that she loves Daein and they love her but....gfusgfdj

Soren would make a BADASS ruler.

[FionordeQuester]

I would say that RD has quite a surprisingly significant amount of "fanfiction elements". At times, I feel that it is written like a rushed fanfic. And I've seen a lot of fanfiction, believe me.

Have you ever read "Hammer of Terrascars"? If so, who do you think is more of a Mary Sue, Micaiah, or the tactition of that story, who...

beats Jaffar, singlehandedly, in a straight-up, fair one-on-one fight

?

Edited August 18, 2012 by FionordeQuester

[-Cynthia-]

I think this is actually the part of the story that pisses me off the most. And its not really because im a Soren fan. Its because no matter what you do, Soren never gets to claim his right! No matter how many supports and weird crap you do, this never happens! Micaiah gets to rule Daein! Ike doesnt end up ruling anything. He just vanishes! So after everything is said and done, Micaiah gets to be a queen! I would be alright with it if she was able to be a part of Begnion's rule in some way, but Daein? Yeah i get that she loves Daein and they love her but....gfusgfdj

Soren would make a BADASS ruler.

I don't see this as an issue. Even in the "complete" ending, only Kurth and Almedha know Soren is the heir. I doubt Soren would have any interest in ruling Daein even if he knew...I can't really fathom a scenario where Soren becomes king of Daein. Ike becoming a ruler also wouldn't make sense, he rejected his post as a Crimean noble so taking political office seems rather out of character. Micaiah taking the position which allows her to best help the people of Daein makes sense in character.

[Lord Raven]

I get the feeling part of the reason Ike even left in the first place is because of his new status as "savior of the world," he wanted to forgo the limelight in fear he would become a celebrity and become celebrated as if he were a lord.

[Sunwoo]

Have you ever read "Hammer of Terrascars"? If so, who do you think is more of a Mary Sue, Micaiah, or the tactition of that story, who...

beats Jaffar, singlehandedly, in a straight-up, fair one-on-one fight

?

I've never read that story, but there are plenty of tacticians who have even more Mary Sue elements than I feel Micaiah does. I've seen a lot of tactician stories (and I have plenty of hate for them). Note to everyone: if you want a Gary Stu/Mary Sue, go find a tactician story on FFN. Almost any of them will do!

[Jedi]

I get the feeling part of the reason Ike even left in the first place is because of his new status as "savior of the world," he wanted to forgo the limelight in fear he would become a celebrity and become celebrated as if he were a lord.

I thought this as well Raven and it totally makes sense with his character that was established

[bottlegnomes]

@Noktra, no, the point is it's not as simple as you want to make it.

Boron summed things up fairly well IMO.