FE: Awakening Hard Mode Tier List

[Jediabiwan]

Either way, unless you're low manning, which I seriously doubt tier lists would assume, or giving blatant favoritism, I don't really think Galeforce would come into play until late in Valm.

How many turns does galeforce need to save in later levels to make blatant favoritism warranted?

Edited May 7, 2013 by Jediabiwan

[SB.]

1 turns every map if done properly.

Which we agreed that we wouldn't do.

[Da Bear]

1 turns every map if done properly.

Which we agreed that we wouldn't do.

Olwen doesn't care about that though... making you're argument irrelevant because he's Olwen so he's always right.

/sarcasm

[Interceptor]

Two things worth noting in this thread, for the benefit of people with ADHD and/or short-term memory problems:

1) We're not measuring turns in this tier list (it's very specifically not an LTC list), we're measuring unit performance. The point of going fast is to expose the difference between units (because turtling covers up things like bad durability), not to see how fast that we can go. Again: if your standard for measuring unit positions is based on "turns saved", you are Doing It Wrong™. Keep reading this paragraph until you either understand, or your eyes fall out of your head.

2) Please don't chase Singed make a bad situation worse by engaging with people who can't follow directions. In 70+ pages of discussion, this has never ended well. Learn from history.

[Da Bear]

In that case I still think Stahl > Sully I jus can't find RFoF's post to argue it... all these useless posts...

[General Horace]

She didn't say much about it, the only thing she said was Sully was better, but it wasn't relevant to the discussion at the time. The only thing that might have been relevant was his speed.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Can I clear it up the same way that I did the other one?

Metadiscussions about the philosophies of the tier list aren't happening. They just aren't. There are a set of standards that everyone seems fine to hold units to in this tier list, and it's entirely unreasonable to expect people to discard all their standards and suddenly conform to yours simply because "i say words and clearly you plebians are too lame to understand or refute my awesome arguments". It happened before, it shit up the tier list, and it went nowhere. Stop.

Next one gets a report.

Now that we're past that...

Changes made:

Nowi to bottom of A.

Stahl to above Lucina. I still don't feel hot about Chrom dropping to A.

Lon'qu to below Sumia/Cordelia.

Gaius moved up to below Gregor.

Cherche up to above Miriel.

Now... I HAVE OPINIONS

Henry > Tharja.

I am not hot on Frederick dropping out of S, but I do feel that at some point he is a dead-ender of a unit. However, instead of just resigning him as a pocket to Sumia, Sumia can move on to bigger and better things: a support with Henry. If Sumia promotes to Dark Flier, she gives Henry everything he would ever want in a partner: Speed, Magic, and Resistance. This happens to be very important, since it gives Henry a huge leg up in Chapter 14.

Chapter 14's Cavaliers have 12 speed. With Henry's base of 9, all it takes is 8 additional Speed to double them. 2 of that comes from a Speed Tonic (likely the only one he'll need for a long time), and 5 of that probably comes from Sumia (Dark Flier gives 3 base, she's probably got around 20 speed at this point for a +2 bonus), meaning he either needs to get a support rank with Sumia or a single point of Speed before Chapter 14. Furthermore, Chapter 13 is when Nosferatu becomes buyable. Once Henry starts doubling Cavaliers, he becomes basically the best unit in Chapter 14. Sumia can fly him onto one of the boats, where he can proceed to tank the entire left boat, which should be enough to get him to 20 for free. Alternately, he can take either of the other boats and leech off a bit less experience, but you know where I'm going here. From there, he can promote into either Dark Knight or Sorceror- Dark Knight has a benefit of movement, more speed, and better pair up bonuses, but Sorceror with Nosferatu is tough to pass up. Either way, Henry has all the tools he needs to get a jump start, since slow, bulky Valm is the perfect place for him to hone his skills and build supports.

Since the comparison is inevitable, I'll honestly argue that he's better than Tharja. Tharja has an advantage of 4+5% speed on him, but considering that Speed can be dealt with far more effectively than Tharja's issues, and a Sumia support does more for Henry than any of Tharja's supports can do for her, I'd say they're a push. In terms of availability, it's a lot less clear cut than it seems. Considering how late Tharja arrives (and can feasibly be recruited) in Chapter 9, she really only has four maps up on him: Chapter 10, Chapter 11, Paralogue 4, and Chapter 12. Chapter 10 is a very spread out map with lots of chokepoints, priority targets that you have to aggressively go after, and a boss kill clear on the other side of the map. It's not exactly the dream spot for Tharja. Paralogue 4 is much the same, except it's a bit more chokepoint-heavy. Chapter 11 is just... not great for Tharja. Mages on one side (which she has some relative trouble with given her mediocre Resistance and their good resistance) with a Sage that will smoke her, Mercenaries on the other side that she can't double with a Hero that will smoke her. Gangrel in the middle, and good luck hitting him with Nosferatu. Finally, Chapter 12 is a pretty good map for Tharja, all things considered... if she's still got her Nosferatu. Considering that she really needs it to be effective, and she's been staring at it for three chapters, it's unlikely that she'll have enough gas left in the tank to actually contribute much, and once Nosferatu is gone... that's it. Her usefulness goes from "i own the universe" to "god, i wish i could get close to enemies right about now". Not to mention the fact that before she picks up a higher level support she's still incredibly unreliable, and we're starting to see promoted enemies with Silver around now, which are not good for her.

Then Henry shows up. Chapter 13 is a rough chapter for him, but he just needs to pick up a couple kills to get a point of Speed and build the Sumia support, but this isn't a great chapter for Tharja either. Warriors and Snipers hit way too hard for her to deal with, Longbow archers can't be Nosferatu'd, and she can't double Mercenaries. From then, we're on to Valm, where they're both doubling, but Henry is hitting harder, healing more, taking less damage, and seeing 95%+ hitrates with Nosferatu due to his huge blowout in Skill. As they level it just gets worse, since Henry's durability lead lets him go into a good class (Dark Knight) rather than Sorceror, which is only good for Nosferatu.

In short, I think that Henry's speed flaw is vastly overhyped considering the huge change in enemy speed that occurs, and his advantages in pretty much every other stat far outweigh Tharja's benefit.

e: One last point that I want to hammer home. None of Tharja's desired supports really give her what she needs at the same time., and the one that does (Libra) doesn't give Speed, which means that Henry's far superior Sumia support (or Cordelia if you swing that way, or a dark flier!avatar if one was so inclined) not only equalizes them but gives him a huge lead in every single aspect, including mobility, which more than outweighs Tharja's 3 maps of mediocre performance.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Seven Deadly Sins

[Da Bear]

She didn't say much about it, the only thing she said was Sully was better, but it wasn't relevant to the discussion at the time. The only thing that might have been relevant was his speed.

His speed is fixable by Lon'qu a resource no one else really wants (except maybe Vaike, Kellam can't double regardless and thus wastes him).

Also SDS she joins late Chapter nine... otherwise I agree with you.

And finally the pegs should be ahead of Anna as well.

Edited May 7, 2013 by bearclaw13

[Shadow Mir]

Now onto the

Now... I HAVE OPINIONS

Henry > Tharja.

I am not hot on Frederick dropping out of S, but I do feel that at some point he is a dead-ender of a unit. However, instead of just resigning him as a pocket to Sumia, Sumia can move on to bigger and better things: a support with Henry. If Sumia promotes to Dark Flier, she gives Henry everything he would ever want in a partner: Speed, Magic, and Resistance. This happens to be very important, since it gives Henry a huge leg up in Chapter 14.

Chapter 14's Cavaliers have 12 speed. With Henry's base of 9, all it takes is 8 additional Speed to double them. 2 of that comes from a Speed Tonic (likely the only one he'll need for a long time), and 5 of that probably comes from Sumia (Dark Flier gives 3 base, she's probably got around 20 speed at this point for a +2 bonus), meaning he either needs to get a support rank with Sumia or a single point of Speed before Chapter 14. Furthermore, Chapter 13 is when Nosferatu becomes buyable. Once Henry starts doubling Cavaliers, he becomes basically the best unit in Chapter 14. Sumia can fly him onto one of the boats, where he can proceed to tank the entire left boat, which should be enough to get him to 20 for free. Alternately, he can take either of the other boats and leech off a bit less experience, but you know where I'm going here. From there, he can promote into either Dark Knight or Sorceror- Dark Knight has a benefit of movement, more speed, and better pair up bonuses, but Sorceror with Nosferatu is tough to pass up. Either way, Henry has all the tools he needs to get a jump start, since slow, bulky Valm is the perfect place for him to hone his skills and build supports.

Since the comparison is inevitable, I'll honestly argue that he's better than Tharja. Tharja has an advantage of 4+5% speed on him, but considering that Speed can be dealt with far more effectively than Tharja's issues, and a Sumia support does more for Henry than any of Tharja's supports can do for her, I'd say they're a push. In terms of availability, it's a lot less clear cut than it seems. Considering how late Tharja arrives in Chapter 10, she really only has three maps up on him: Chapter 11, Paralogue 4, and Chapter 12. Chapter 11 is a very spread out map with lots of chokepoints, priority targets that you have to aggressively go after, and a boss kill clear on the other side of the map. It's not exactly the dream spot for Tharja. Paralogue 4 is much the same, except it's a bit more chokepoint-heavy. Chapter 12 is just... not great for Tharja. Mages on one side (which she has some relative trouble with given her mediocre Resistance and their good resistance) with a Sage that will smoke her, Mercenaries on the other side that she can't double with a Hero that will smoke her. Gangrel in the middle, and good luck hitting him with Nosferatu.

Then Henry shows up. Chapter 13 is a rough chapter for him, but he just needs to pick up a couple kills to get a point of Speed and build the Sumia support, but this isn't a great chapter for Tharja either. Warriors and Snipers hit way too hard for her to deal with, Longbow archers can't be Nosferatu'd, and she can't double Mercenaries. From then, we're on to Valm, where they're both doubling, but Henry is hitting harder, healing more, taking less damage, and seeing 95%+ hitrates with Nosferatu due to his huge blowout in Skill. As they level it just gets worse, since Henry's durability lead lets him go into a good class (Dark Knight) rather than Sorceror, which is only good for Nosferatu.

In short, I think that Henry's speed flaw is vastly overhyped considering the huge change in enemy speed that occurs, and his advantages in pretty much every other stat far outweigh Tharja's benefit.

Now, as to this, should it be that Tharja should drop, Henry should rise, or maybe both?

[Jediabiwan]

Two things worth noting in this thread, for the benefit of people with ADHD and/or short-term memory problems:

1) We're not measuring turns in this tier list (it's very specifically not an LTC list), we're measuring unit performance. The point of going fast is to expose the difference between units (because turtling covers up things like bad durability), not to see how fast that we can go. Again: if your standard for measuring unit positions is based on "turns saved", you are Doing It Wrong™. Keep reading this paragraph until you either understand, or your eyes fall out of your head.

2) Please don't chase Singed make a bad situation worse by engaging with people who can't follow directions. In 70+ pages of discussion, this has never ended well. Learn from history.

I get that this is the concept but I find it almost impossible to understand this place where neither tharja or sumia/cordelia are top teir. Why does mov matter at all? There are just no set standards. While I really like the concept of the teir list there really needs to be some sort of specification. There's a reason we come back to this point every few pages.

I like the idea's that everyone is trying to stick to, but I understand everyone's confusion. They need to be a bit more defined to avoid confusion.

Also feel free to avoid this post and just carry on discussion as I wrote it before SDS posted.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Jediabiwan

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Now, as to this, should it be that Tharja should drop, Henry should rise, or maybe both?

Good question.

I really don't see Tharja dropping, so I'd honestly say it would be Henry rising.

[Da Bear]

Now, as to this, should it be that Tharja should drop, Henry should rise, or maybe both?

Henry rising makes sense since he really isn't bad at all at base.

Edited May 7, 2013 by bearclaw13

[1% critted]

Btw Chapter 11 is the chapter with mercs, heroes and mages. Chapter 12 has knights and cavs.

[Da Bear]

Btw Chapter 11 is the chapter with mercs, heroes and mages. Chapter 12 has knights and cavs.

Yeah he's one cahpter behind in his post...

[Seven Deadly Sins]

OOPS

Yeah, pardon me. I'll edit it.

Chapter 12 is actually pretty good for Tharja, all things considered, though the paladins and promoted enemies kinda make it rough.

[Da Bear]

OOPS

Yeah, pardon me. I'll edit it.

Chapter 12 is actually pretty good for Tharja, all things considered, though the paladins and promoted enemies kinda make it rough.

They do hit her hard.

[Interceptor]

I get that this is the concept but I find it almost impossible to understand this place where neither tharja or sumia/cordelia are top teir. Why does mov matter at all? There are just no set standards. While I really like the concept of the teir list there really needs to be some sort of specification. There's a reason we come back to this point every few pages.

I don't see any reason why they should be top tier units. All of them have significant flaws (effective weakness and squishy combat stats for the pegs, early accuracy and issues with hitting RES for Tharja, etc), none are some unstoppable god unit that kills everything and never dies. Avatar is pretty solidly in this category, and the Cavaliers are excellent at it as well.

MV matters for all the reasons that MV is good in the first place (other than running ahead to Rescue chain skip entire chapters). If you have higher MV it's easier to get units into good positions, or assassinate a dangerous enemy, or keep up with a charging army. Things like flying MV enable strong units to use their strengths more effectively (ferrying someone over a river/cliff). Etc.

[General Horace]

Not that I think Tharja's deserving of going higher, but why is hitting resistance an issue at all? Around 25 magic is enough to ORKO lategame enemies, and Tharja shouldn't have issues getting that. Unless I misunderstood what you were saying.

Edited May 7, 2013 by General Horace

[Da Bear]

Not that I think Tharja's deserving of going higher, but why is hitting resistance an issue at all?

Because she has mediocre defense (still beter than most mages though) and good resistance so she prefers fighting mages... but she does fail damage to them since they're exactly the same.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Other way around: She's not exactly in her element while fighting mages, since I'm pretty sure she doesn't ORKO them and they do more damage to her lower Resistance, especially the Sage on the right side.

[Shadow Mir]

Because she has mediocre defense (still beter than most mages though) and good resistance so she prefers fighting mages... but she does fail damage to them since they're exactly the same.

Except Tharja's resistance isn't that great, which means they cause her problems on two counts.

Edit: Drat, sniped.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[Da Bear]

Other way around: She's not exactly in her element while fighting mages, since I'm pretty sure she doesn't ORKO them and they do more damage to her lower Resistance, especially the Sage on the right side.

Really I've never had that... oh well should have checked the growths...

[KitheOfEvrark]

Tharja has a 10% higher magic growth than Henry. How is he "hitting harder, healing more"? Also, why can't Tharja do exactly what Henry does in chapter 14? The only notable advantages he has on her are skill and concrete durability and the skill only really hurts her for the first couple chapters after she joins. As a minor point, Tharja joins in Chapter 9, not 10 meaning she has 4 chapters to grow before Henry shows up.

Edited May 7, 2013 by KitheOfEvrark

[General Horace]

She's getting a kill at most in chapter 9, and that's being generous, since she joins at the end of the chapter.

[KitheOfEvrark]

She's getting a kill at most in chapter 9, and that's being generous, since she joins at the end of the chapter.

You're right. I was pointing her jointime out since Seven Deadly Sins mistakenly said in his original argument she joined at the end of chapter 10, meaning she had only 11, Para 4 and 12 to level. Having chapter 10 as well helps a bit.

I'm not objecting to Henry moving up, I just don't think he's anywhere near better than Tharja.